I picked up a Kinesis a few month ago and it's been a life changer. I've struggled with shoulder pain since as far back as I can remember. I'd done PT, dry needling, massage, etc etc. I'd even sprung for a personal ergonomic assessment. I'm a cyclist and and keyboard jockey, so most of my waking life is spent in positions that seemed to make it worse. At times it prevented me from sleeping, doing things I enjoyed, etc. I wear a 42 jacket, so I'm not crazy wide or anything.
I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.
Did your doctors or therapists consider Thoracic Outlet Syndrome? I've struggled with severe pain in shoulders, arms, hands and fingers for several years. It was sort of discovered by accident. They removed both of my first ribs (rib resection) and in combination with a Kinesis keyboard and a Wacom pen and tablet as a mouse replacement it's much better now.
Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection, the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful.
I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse, is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold the tablet) is much better.
1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch)
2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+ massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could fix the problems.
I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above tips I'm not sure you need it.
I've had shoulder pain for a couple of years now and I'm reading this right after I bought an old 500 on eBay for $100 two hours ago. I love my Niz topre clone but I need a healthier layout, and now I'm pretty stoked.
Just wanted to thank you for this comment. I have very broad shoulders but have been hacking on Apple keyboards for a few years now - the results are that I have essentially permanent internal rotation of my shoulders. This has led to not being able to breathe properly with my diaphragm, which causes all kinds of issues!
I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.
I can attest to that. I tried microsoft ergonomic keyboards, logitech keboards but they didn't help then i found kinesis freestyle split keyboard and since then almost all the issues are gone. prior to switching to kinesis, i also switched from kwerty to dvorak, It helped but not that much. I used to have issues with my right hand due mouse usage, so i switched from right to left hand because i am right handed and unconsciously i was using it way more then my left. you do need to complement the change with upperbody stretching.
In addition to all the comments from Advantage fans here, I also wanted to add that Kinesis has been an awesome company. I tweeted about some mods I made to my Advantage keyboard a long time ago, and they invited me to their office and donated a bunch of keyboards to the nonprofit I work for, to give as prizes to students (even before they launched the gaming-focused brand).
I have been a Kinesis user for 8 years, starting with an Advantage USB, added a classic PS2(with a usb adapter) as a backup and then was a tester for the Advantage 2 which I ended up buying. A company I worked for gave me a choice for keyboards when I joined so I tried a Ergodox EZ with the RGB backlighting.
General observations:
1. Overall I prefer the Advantage over the Ergodox. The big reason is the contoured design and the fact that the Ergodox tends to walk around unless you have a solid desk pad underneath it. Also, the Ergodox never felt as comfortable as the Advantage. Yes the Advantage is not as easy to travel with but still....
2. I like the new design, but there are a few things that would have made the pro perfect. PBT backlit keycaps like they offer on the Ergodox-EZ and RGB backlighting...and maybe a set of f-keys (on the fence with the last one).
One other thing... A mix of o-rings and QMX clips made a huge difference with the feel of the keyboard for me. I have been a cherry brown user from the beginning though and different people have different preferences with that.
Kinesis is also really good about providing parts and service. I've had them send me replacement switches and have seen them offer up in-expensive replacement boards to repair and keep older models going.
I'm going to buy one of these, but given that I already have 4 high quality mechanical keyboards and I have yet to have one die I am starting to feel guilty having all of these laying around. That said there is a side of me that is curious about the Keyboard.io :)
Kinesis Advantage 2 is great, but it's massive and hard to travel with. Looks like the 360 might be a bit easier to travel with.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands.
Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other non-split keyboard out there).
I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped layout was tough.
I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350 keyboard.
Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement.
Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want.
I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit without moving your entire hand.
I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
>Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement.
Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able to move keys closer to your fingers.
That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
If you haven’t, you really should check out the Moonlander that’s referred to elsewhere in this thread. I switched to it from a Kinesis Advantage 2 and couldn’t be happier.
It's a shame they couldn't get hot-swapable switches to work [1]. I have an
ErgoDox with MX Browns which hasn't seen the light of day for a while. If I were to make a large outlay again on a keyboard I'd want to buy with the switches I now know I want or no switches and fit them myself. TBH I could take a soldering iron to my ErgoDox I just haven't had the motivation.
As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future.
If you're looking for something small but more ergonomic than a Plank, take a look at the Atreus (either as a DIY or in a kit from Keyboario[1]). I also had issues with the Plank but the slight angle of the keys on the Atreus has been extremely comfortable for me.
What does the keyboard layout look like? Every single picture of the keyboard on this site shows either a tiny section of the keyboard where you only see like 4 keys, or there's one picture that shows the whole thing, but it's super tiny and you can't read the keys.
Does it have a decent mac layout? Is cmd+tab easy to type? Is copy/paste ergonomic? I have no idea because the pictures don't show it, and scrolling around on their site is awful (you can't quickly scan around because of the stupid animations taking 2 seconds for pictures to pop in even if you're quickly scrolling past.)
I've had a basic ergo keyboard (MS sculpt ergonomic) for a while and it's much much better than regular keyboards;
However I think all ergo keyboard companies are missing the point those days:
"Just-a-keyboard" doesn't cut it anymore in the world of laptops. I want an ergonomic keyboard with a built-in Macbook-class touchpad, or ThinkPad-class trackpoint + three buttons. (I know it's tricky, especially with split keybord; conceptually it feels it almost can't be done).
Unfortunately most of software those days has pretty limited functionality if you want to use it 100% with a keyboard only. And no matter what best keyboard you have, adding a trackpad or mouse to it is just clunky and slows you down due to endless context-switching.
Are there any examples of ergo keyboard with built-in pointing device? I never found any.
The touchpad is an ergo-killer. It's just bad for your wrists to use it for any significant amount of time. It would be silly to include it in an ergo keyboard. The trackpoint is likely to be still covered by some IBM patents, and nobody uses it anyway.
If you really want a trackpad, get an Apple one and drop it in the middle of your split keyboard. It will still be bad for your wrists though.
How about a pointing device with a built-in keyboard? IMO it sucks but here you go: https://www.keymouse.com/
I'm adding analog thumbsticks (the style you'd find e.g. on a playstation controller) to my split keyboard. I expect them to suck too but maybe 0.5% less than the nipple on thinkpad keyboards. That one keeps tempting me because it's in a convenient positoin but it just drives me mad every time I try to get anything done with it.
I was getting hand fatigue from my laptop keyboard and decided to look into split keyboards. I tried a variety of Kinesis keyboards but I didn't like the build quality or inconsistency in features between models. I ended up settling with the Mistel MD770 which is a compact split keyboard in a traditional QWERTY layout. I found that was all that was really needed. I still use my laptop a ton, but I switch it up just enough with the split one to keep fatigue at bay. This goes the same for using a trackball with my left hand and a mouse with my right.
At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't worth it for me, nor is the cost.
This is one of the most frustrating product pages I've ever seen. All I want to see is high resolution photos of the keyboard from the top and back. The top view image is 400x300 pixels. The design looks nice, but not having function keys is a major turn-off. This is a keyboard for professionals, it should have a full complement of keys.
I've been waiting a long time for this and getting hyped at their Twitter drip feed but damn preorders open December 20th for potential delivery in MAY.
Oh, finally a big keyboard manufacturer has the cojones to move Capslock away from prime keyboard space.
I have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll probably get this 360.
I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards without having to set it up.
I recently replaced the controller on my advantage2 to support qmk[0]. Using multiple layers lets me avoid the tiny rubber f-keys and move the arrow keys to hjkl along with a few other tweaks.
I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up.
[+] [-] rangersanger|4 years ago|reply
I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.
[+] [-] yabatopia|4 years ago|reply
Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection, the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful.
I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse, is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold the tablet) is much better.
[+] [-] hitchhiker-nz|4 years ago|reply
For a start, it stops the need for hunching shoulders as the halves can be placed to fit shoulder width.
This is for another split contoured keyboard, but it would help explain https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
[+] [-] srcreigh|4 years ago|reply
1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch)
2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+ massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could fix the problems.
I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above tips I'm not sure you need it.
[+] [-] deagle50|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whalesalad|4 years ago|reply
I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.
[+] [-] hellol-amda|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akudha|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dwringer|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johnthedebs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cma|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tylermenezes|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mike_h|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alanbernstein|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lgleason|4 years ago|reply
General observations:
1. Overall I prefer the Advantage over the Ergodox. The big reason is the contoured design and the fact that the Ergodox tends to walk around unless you have a solid desk pad underneath it. Also, the Ergodox never felt as comfortable as the Advantage. Yes the Advantage is not as easy to travel with but still.... 2. I like the new design, but there are a few things that would have made the pro perfect. PBT backlit keycaps like they offer on the Ergodox-EZ and RGB backlighting...and maybe a set of f-keys (on the fence with the last one).
One other thing... A mix of o-rings and QMX clips made a huge difference with the feel of the keyboard for me. I have been a cherry brown user from the beginning though and different people have different preferences with that.
Kinesis is also really good about providing parts and service. I've had them send me replacement switches and have seen them offer up in-expensive replacement boards to repair and keep older models going.
I'm going to buy one of these, but given that I already have 4 high quality mechanical keyboards and I have yet to have one die I am starting to feel guilty having all of these laying around. That said there is a side of me that is curious about the Keyboard.io :)
[+] [-] MrPowers|4 years ago|reply
The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands.
Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
[+] [-] inquist|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alasdair_|4 years ago|reply
I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other non-split keyboard out there).
I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped layout was tough.
I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350 keyboard.
I'm so glad this is a thing!
[+] [-] db65edfc7996|4 years ago|reply
Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want.
I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
[+] [-] donatj|4 years ago|reply
I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
[+] [-] gorbachev|4 years ago|reply
Function keys are on the number row with a Fn modifier (Fn+1 for F1).
You get used to it in about half an hour. It becomes second nature in less than a week.
It makes the keyboard much more compact, which is definitely a plus. Less hand movement, less deskspace consumed, lighter.
[+] [-] ksml|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thanhhaimai|4 years ago|reply
It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version later.
[+] [-] alasdair_|4 years ago|reply
Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
[+] [-] simonsaysso|4 years ago|reply
That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
[+] [-] dlgeek|4 years ago|reply
> Function Keys reside in new “Fn” Layer
> 10-Key resides in the traditional “Keypad” Layer
[+] [-] sulam|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gbrown_|4 years ago|reply
As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future.
[1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1470446358372896772
[2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html
[+] [-] simonsaysso|4 years ago|reply
[1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus
[+] [-] ninkendo|4 years ago|reply
Does it have a decent mac layout? Is cmd+tab easy to type? Is copy/paste ergonomic? I have no idea because the pictures don't show it, and scrolling around on their site is awful (you can't quickly scan around because of the stupid animations taking 2 seconds for pictures to pop in even if you're quickly scrolling past.)
[+] [-] alasdair_|4 years ago|reply
So the Advantage comes with extra keycaps for mac that let you replace the windows keys with option keys, not sure if the 360 will have that.
On the regular Advantage, the option keys are controlled by the thumb. You can, of course, remap anything you want to remap.
[+] [-] andrei_says_|4 years ago|reply
Some shortcuts no longer work for one-handed use.
[+] [-] CardenB|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] advrs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bllguo|4 years ago|reply
Also, plug for the yet unreleased Glove80 https://www.moergo.com/, as someone who prefers low-profile switches.
[+] [-] tifadg1|4 years ago|reply
Kinesis advantage 2 helped me deal with carpal tunnel syndrome and forced to learn 10 finger typing, among other things.
As someone interacting with the pc for 8+ hours, this is easily the most impactful 450 Eur I've ever spent.
[+] [-] dave_sid|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jakub_g|4 years ago|reply
I've had a basic ergo keyboard (MS sculpt ergonomic) for a while and it's much much better than regular keyboards;
However I think all ergo keyboard companies are missing the point those days:
"Just-a-keyboard" doesn't cut it anymore in the world of laptops. I want an ergonomic keyboard with a built-in Macbook-class touchpad, or ThinkPad-class trackpoint + three buttons. (I know it's tricky, especially with split keybord; conceptually it feels it almost can't be done).
Unfortunately most of software those days has pretty limited functionality if you want to use it 100% with a keyboard only. And no matter what best keyboard you have, adding a trackpad or mouse to it is just clunky and slows you down due to endless context-switching.
Are there any examples of ergo keyboard with built-in pointing device? I never found any.
[+] [-] toyg|4 years ago|reply
If you really want a trackpad, get an Apple one and drop it in the middle of your split keyboard. It will still be bad for your wrists though.
[+] [-] foxfluff|4 years ago|reply
I'm adding analog thumbsticks (the style you'd find e.g. on a playstation controller) to my split keyboard. I expect them to suck too but maybe 0.5% less than the nipple on thinkpad keyboards. That one keeps tempting me because it's in a convenient positoin but it just drives me mad every time I try to get anything done with it.
[+] [-] ivanb|4 years ago|reply
https://www.keymouse.com/
[+] [-] qq4|4 years ago|reply
At the end of the day the solution for me is to move in different ways and to build strength to combat fatigue. The trouble to adapt to Dvorak or curved, exceptionally ergonomic layouts isn't worth it for me, nor is the cost.
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] h3mb3|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsr_|4 years ago|reply
Differentiating by wired/wireless makes sense.
Using two different programming systems? No.
ZMK instead of adding BT support to QMK? Why?
RGB underglow but not individually programmable key backlights?
For the money they are charging, all of these things should have been extremely easy decisions. Anyone have insight?
[+] [-] frou_dh|4 years ago|reply
https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Pro-Asymm...
I've already settled on my "endgame" desktop keyboard in the Matias Ergo Pro though. Don't like layouts that stray too far from ANSI.
[+] [-] nickm12|4 years ago|reply
Edit: Found the large picture via url hacking! https://kinesis-ergo.com/wp-content/uploads/Adv360-Overhead_...
[+] [-] VectorLock|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pen2l|4 years ago|reply
I have Advantage keyboard and usually wrote off physically separated keyboards, but thinking more about it now, I do wish my Advantage's two splits were angled a liiiittle more. So, I'll probably get this 360.
I do hope however that us_intl layout becomes more widespread and the AltGr modifier key is universally present in US keyboards without having to set it up.
[+] [-] dmm|4 years ago|reply
I wish kinsis would make qmk support a default option. Custom layouts and layers are just too useful for me to give up.
[0] https://github.com/kinx-project/kint