10 years or so ago, when I was a game programmer, I used to have the same "I've got an idea for a game" problems.
Most ideas were useless, some were poorly thought out "Like X but Y", for example "Like Command and Conquer but set in space"; others were far too difficult to construct.
Then, I was told an idea for a great puzzle game. I decided the idea was so great I made the originator of the idea my wife ;)
Limiting the scope of your idea helps a lot with execution. Kenta Cho blows me away with the crazy number of games he releases. He releases a new one every few days! [1] But if you look at his source code, it's very short and about 90% of it is reused each time.
The tower building game mechanic in World of Goo was the result of a similar rapid-prototyping exercise. Braid started out as a quick prototype, too. Having lots of ideas isn't bad; you just need a way to spew things into a playable state quickly so you can filter out the chaff.
So let's say I take the author's advice, 'always listen to ideas', and unlike the author, get told an awesome idea by a friend-of-a-friend with zero ability to execute.
Great, now what?
Do I really set up a working relationship with this person, who's likely dead weight and valueless now that the idea's been revealed? Do I give him the ownership he thinks he deserves, which is a 50-50 split if I'm lucky? Do I just build it myself?
I prefer to avoid such ethical quandaries, which is why I stick to my own ideas.
Exactly. The other day I was hanging out with some relatives from out of town and my uncle dropped that famous line, "I have an idea for an app." I had been functioning under the same notion that I should always listen to people's ideas, so I listened.
He then says, "I'll tell you, but if you build it I want 50%." I said, "Fine." In my mind I'm thinking, "No way I'm building this." Then he says, "OK, my idea is a contact management application for the iPhone. They have them for the PC, but they don't have them for the iPhone." That's it. That's his whole idea.
That's when I realized I should stop listening to people's ideas about apps because he just basically told me that I can't build any contact management apps without giving him half the profits. If I listen to too many people's ideas, I won't be able to build something without being sued because someone else "gave me the idea".
If the idea is solid and fleshed out (bonus: On paper) and not just a one-liner like "it's My____ but for Chilean expats in Micronesia", then they deserve more than just "build it myself and then Winklevoss them".
Maybe they can do balsamiq mocks of the interface, can run the incorporation/LLC paperwork gauntlet (if it's more than just an app), do beta testing, buy devices to test on, pay you a "solidarity" stipend, research, marketing, wrangle a QA or translation staff on Mechanical Turk.
No one ever has "zero ability to execute". It can't just be about the coding.
This is why movie studios explicitly say they won't read your scripts and film suggestions if you send one in. They want to be able to make a film without the danger of being sued for stealing ideas.
I'm uncomfortable when people want to volunteer their ideas to me for exactly that reason. There's also usually an implicit question: how much will it cost you to build this for me?
Rather than hearing someone's idea for an app I'd much prefer to hear about an existing, unsolved problem that they have. You know, an actual problem worth solving. Those tend to be the more fruitful variety of ideas, IMHO.
You explain the situation to them, and ask them if they'd be ok with 5% for the idea, expanding to more if they take an active role and actually help execute the idea. If they're not OK with that, explain that it just isn't worth it to you.
Ideas are a dime a dozen, it's not like that's the one and only Great Idea out there and it's certainly not worth ruining a friendship over.
"Do I really set up a working relationship with this person, who's likely dead weight and valueless now that the idea's been revealed? Do I give him the ownership he thinks he deserves, which is a 50-50 split if I'm lucky? Do I just build it myself?"
This is pretty much the plot of the Social Network.
I've found that the fastest way to get people to stop telling you their ideas (that they want you to build), is start telling them exactly how THEY could accomplish it.
Them: "I've got this awesome idea for software that tracks traffic jams!"
Me: "Sure, you just need to link up existing maps and satellite imagery from Google to traffic cameras...."
Them: "Uh..."
Me: "Of course, you have to be able to monetize the massive amount of data you'll be moving around, so you need to consider how people will be accessing this? Would it be through a GPS device, or is it a smartphone app, or is this just for commercial (TV stations, police, DOT) applications?"
Them: "Uh...I also had an idea for this other thing..."
You're right, this will be a fast way to get people to stop telling you their ideas. But if you're trying to shut people up then you've missed the OP's point.
You can easily make normal people feel like their idea is worthless and you have mountains of business acumen that, obviously, they must lack. Do this enough times and what you'll find, just like you'd hoped, people stop telling you their ideas.
I'd argue that every time you do this you are shutting down opportunities to collaboratively create ideas that would probably work. Part of being "lucky" is increasing your exposure to failures [1].
When someone approaches you with an idea, you've certainly got a better feel for what will "work" more than you're average person. Consider taking the time to give feedback, help shape it, brainstorm with it. You might find that between the two of you what you create is bigger than what either one could come up with individually.
This applies in all areas of personal relationships, not just iPhone games.
[1] "To increase your chance of success, double your failure rate" - attributed to Tom Watson
this is brilliant! in fact I used this technique out of instinct a couple of times (including with my father, who is an avid web app idea maker, lol!).
I know this is not directly related but being a web developer I generally get something similar. I get the old "Oh we should meet up sometime, my brother is looking for a website". And they think they are doing me a favour when they offer me £100 to do them a site.
I don't see the problem? You just tell them your fee is more than that, and that's it.
Basically, you either work for free (as a favour to friends or charity) or full charge. No in between.
The power of "free" over "friend's fee" is that they know it's a favour so they can't feel entitled to anything--and if they still do, you may feel entitled to take a dump in their kitchen sink (free of charge).
I've been developing for a while, apps specifically for about 2 years and this is my take on things: Yes, I get many many people saying hey, I have this great idea... or hey, my friend wants to make an app... But here is where I think I may differ from others, I am these people too, everyday I wake up with ideas, I write them down and tell them to myself later, I test my own ideas on myself because I can, I know the industry and I know how to research ideas and more often than not, they are not worth my time. But that does not mean I stop thinking... So why shut out all the other ideas that people, sometimes strangers even, are just throwing at you all the time for free? These could be sources for great inspiration (probably not) but it only takes 1 good idea to make you realize that hey, these are people out in the world with different views, different problems, and different solutions. Its like having 100 brains waking up in the morning going hey write this down I think it could be a good idea.
All that aside, here is what I do every time someone pitches an idea (no matter who they are and what the idea might be):
1) Listen
2) Think about it (is this unique, good, stupid, wait... don't I already have this app?)
3) Ask them some key questions, (how will it make money? How much time do you have every day to work on this? How much money can you spend on this project? Have you done any research on the idea? What other apps are there like this one?)
4) Pull out the iPhone and do a quick search for obvious app titles matching their idea and show them the results then ask, what about all these? Have you tested all of these?
5) Give them a 30 second lesson on using the internet and the app store to research their ideas. (nicely)
6) Give them my contact info if they don't already have it - even if the idea sucked (remember 90% of your ideas suck too) and why miss an opportunity to network.
7) If the idea sparks an interest, Say hey, Id like to see a layout of that sometime. Or if its really great set up a time for a call.
8) If it blows, don't worry, they will probably have forgotten about it a week later.
9) Congratulate yourself on not being an ass and realize that you helped someone, yourself, and the rest of the developers out there. They will be better prepared the next time they begin the "I have a great idea..." speech.
This only takes 5 mins and you really never know what you might hear. Ideas are great because they make us think, they test us, they inspire us, and sometimes they can make us rich if can figure out how to use them well.
This only takes 5 mins and you really never know what you might hear. Ideas are great because they make us think, they test us, they inspire us, and sometimes they can make us rich if can figure out how to use them well.
I have to say I love your attitude towards ideas. I often have ideas for projects outside my wheelhouse (mostly personal projects) and talk to EEs and MEs about building stuff. It would suck if all my friends were archetypal hn-programmer-that-hates-idea-guys, I'd probably even drop them as friends. I'm so out of my depth on some things that I share it just to find out if its a completely stupid idea.
Then again, I like building things for the sake of building them, and know people that do too.
I always get this tiring feeling when someone comes up to me to talk about an idea. Especially if it's one of these "fast talking" kind of people. Most of them involve some kind of "social X". Even more saddening is how the people that have these "ideas", have no clue how to market it, where profit comes from, and so forth.
I believe that the only time I've heard of a decent or good idea was from fellow programmers or designers, rather than "business men" or founders of small companies and claim they know it all. Then after they explain their idea, they expect you to invest 90% of your time on the product, promise you a certain ownership percentage (usually ~10%?), rather than paying a good salary up-front; so if it flops they didn't lose any of their time or had to invest any amount of cash. I believe something similar to this happened to some dude who then open-sourced the project. I forgot what project that was, it happened recently.
You can of course listen to anyone's idea, but as the article stated, the chance that it's not another dumb or over-done idea is usually very slim.
The rule that "ideas are nothing, execution is everything" fails to properly acknowledge the class of ideas that come from genuine domain experts. In this situation (and presuming the idea does not require an absurd level of technical specialism and they can bring distribution to the party) then it can even end up being reversed.
I get the same kind of thing, but not aimed at iPhone apps-- rather, start-up ideas.
My approach is to first ask people who their customers will be, and how they plan on selling to them-- and then, if they get past that, I'll hear what the idea is.
The best answer I give is an honest one. "I'm too busy with contracts, and I have a number of my own ideas that I'd love to be working on.[1]"
This answer brings up the commonly echoed sentiment among my mobile developer cohort of the tradeoff between client contracts and your own product work. One is easier, one pays off long term.
This is the same philosophy I take with regards to meetings. I'd gladly take a coffee, lunch, or other meeting with anyone who is interested because you never know what may come out of it. Sure, sometimes I'm busy, but there's always time for lunch and coffee. Take meetings, have conversations, let 1,000 flowers bloom or whatever the relevant expression is. But I also state in advance that our conversation is not subject to any non-disclosure agreement, and I explain that we are both free to do with the information whatever we like. If they're not comfortable with that, I explain that the purpose of the meetings is to see what mutual value we can bring each other. That's enough to screen the random meetings.
I got an email the other day, from a young kid wanting me to sign a NDA, so I could quote him on his idea. I suggested he look at programming himself, and he did not take it well. I did explain to him that signing an NDA would be a disservice to me, if I was working on a similar idea, but he did not see the problem with that.
In the circle that I move around, everyone wants an ecommerce store for their business that can generate sales even when they are sleeping.
I tell them I am busy with my own stuff but I take time to meet and listen to them.
After the meeting, I do research, put together a plan with the breakdown of costs for outsourcing development,
marketing and the estimated revenue.
That's when I stop hearing from them. They get either too busy or they realize that it's not as easy as they think.
I am yet to find someone who followed up on the plan.
Isn't life always like that? Many with plans but very few who act on them.
I don't have a problem hearing from people with ideas, what I have a problem with is 9 out of 10 people fail to execute and as a result, waste my time. It seems that to many, having a business, or an app idea, is as far as it gets. As an entrepreneur, that bugs the hell out of me.
A lot of this comes down to a) non-technical types pursuing their ideas with an unconstrained mental framework and b) non-linearity of good ideas.
a) Unconstrained mental frameworks: "I want a location-based photo-sharing app that comes with angry birds integration" It can't be that hard. There has to be some plugin on github that solves that problem for you already, since it's a great idea."
Since this idea is guaranteed to produce a billion dollars, any developer would have to be irrational to turn down even a 10% equity offer.
b) Non-linearity of good ideas - I'm finding that it's often fewer features and fewer things that make compelling business ideas / user experiences. See Dan Ariley's TED talk [1]. It's intriguing how a negative feature delta (less is more!) often results in something more compelling.
Understanding if something is a good idea is a problem more akin to finding the optimal way of loading an aircraft, where the problem has to be tested, exposed, and simulated; not a simple forecast model where the answer is binary. People will never know whether they're sitting on a great idea until they test their strategy and see how it turns out.
On a side-note, a friend and I have a small service that attempts to solve this problem. It's called Casual Contracting [2] and tries to frame this problem in a positive light for both devs and idea people.
Great point, and if I may say ideas are almost worthless. They're floating all over, they're everywhere. Bad ones, good ones, done ones... I believe what makes it worth is the execution, the effort of making an app running and selling.
I believe `Angry Birds` is a good example of it. It's success did not come from the idea at all. A simple game with a good execution and good marketing made it so popular.
Agreeing with the article; I just want to add that hearing people's ideas also put you into an awkward position. They give you responsibility of either not doing that application without that person's consent or sharing a revenue.
You usually don't need neither, because as a developer you're already putting more mental work on how to come up with better apps than some friend's mother of yours.
And hearing people like they invented the wheel all the time really is boring.
Acting condescending towards people who don't understand my field for not understanding my field could be counter productive? Yeah, this is a no-brainier.
The anti-"idea guy" attitude was all ego, no logic. I can't say I'm surprised that it took off as well as it did, it felt good and matched the reality that most ideas suck so it was easy to adopt. I'm not surprised, but a disappointed that more people didn't recognize it for what it was. Oh well, being the only guy hearing the good ideas was fun while it lasted.
The way I've learned to deal with this is that I listen enthusiastically, and then I ask the person with the idea to come back with sketches or something more concrete. That has, so far, eliminated 100% of the ideas outright. When someone really serious comes to me with a concrete idea, I'll know it, and then we'll talk for real. Asking the person with the idea to do a little work to make it real is a great way to determine how serious they really are.
[+] [-] CJefferson|14 years ago|reply
Most ideas were useless, some were poorly thought out "Like X but Y", for example "Like Command and Conquer but set in space"; others were far too difficult to construct.
Then, I was told an idea for a great puzzle game. I decided the idea was so great I made the originator of the idea my wife ;)
[+] [-] shasta|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jamesgeck0|14 years ago|reply
1. http://wonderfl.net/user/ABA/codes
The tower building game mechanic in World of Goo was the result of a similar rapid-prototyping exercise. Braid started out as a quick prototype, too. Having lots of ideas isn't bad; you just need a way to spew things into a playable state quickly so you can filter out the chaff.
[+] [-] ido|14 years ago|reply
Was it successful?
[+] [-] adrianN|14 years ago|reply
You mean Star Craft?
[+] [-] atomicdog|14 years ago|reply
Yeah, that kind of game could never become popular, right? ;)
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gyardley|14 years ago|reply
Great, now what?
Do I really set up a working relationship with this person, who's likely dead weight and valueless now that the idea's been revealed? Do I give him the ownership he thinks he deserves, which is a 50-50 split if I'm lucky? Do I just build it myself?
I prefer to avoid such ethical quandaries, which is why I stick to my own ideas.
[+] [-] dangero|14 years ago|reply
He then says, "I'll tell you, but if you build it I want 50%." I said, "Fine." In my mind I'm thinking, "No way I'm building this." Then he says, "OK, my idea is a contact management application for the iPhone. They have them for the PC, but they don't have them for the iPhone." That's it. That's his whole idea.
That's when I realized I should stop listening to people's ideas about apps because he just basically told me that I can't build any contact management apps without giving him half the profits. If I listen to too many people's ideas, I won't be able to build something without being sued because someone else "gave me the idea".
[+] [-] muhfuhkuh|14 years ago|reply
Maybe they can do balsamiq mocks of the interface, can run the incorporation/LLC paperwork gauntlet (if it's more than just an app), do beta testing, buy devices to test on, pay you a "solidarity" stipend, research, marketing, wrangle a QA or translation staff on Mechanical Turk.
No one ever has "zero ability to execute". It can't just be about the coding.
[+] [-] SandB0x|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kaffeinecoma|14 years ago|reply
Rather than hearing someone's idea for an app I'd much prefer to hear about an existing, unsolved problem that they have. You know, an actual problem worth solving. Those tend to be the more fruitful variety of ideas, IMHO.
[+] [-] jarin|14 years ago|reply
Ideas are a dime a dozen, it's not like that's the one and only Great Idea out there and it's certainly not worth ruining a friendship over.
[+] [-] chriseidhof|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimbokun|14 years ago|reply
This is pretty much the plot of the Social Network.
[+] [-] silverbax88|14 years ago|reply
Them: "I've got this awesome idea for software that tracks traffic jams!"
Me: "Sure, you just need to link up existing maps and satellite imagery from Google to traffic cameras...."
Them: "Uh..."
Me: "Of course, you have to be able to monetize the massive amount of data you'll be moving around, so you need to consider how people will be accessing this? Would it be through a GPS device, or is it a smartphone app, or is this just for commercial (TV stations, police, DOT) applications?"
Them: "Uh...I also had an idea for this other thing..."
[+] [-] jashmenn|14 years ago|reply
You can easily make normal people feel like their idea is worthless and you have mountains of business acumen that, obviously, they must lack. Do this enough times and what you'll find, just like you'd hoped, people stop telling you their ideas.
I'd argue that every time you do this you are shutting down opportunities to collaboratively create ideas that would probably work. Part of being "lucky" is increasing your exposure to failures [1].
When someone approaches you with an idea, you've certainly got a better feel for what will "work" more than you're average person. Consider taking the time to give feedback, help shape it, brainstorm with it. You might find that between the two of you what you create is bigger than what either one could come up with individually.
This applies in all areas of personal relationships, not just iPhone games.
[1] "To increase your chance of success, double your failure rate" - attributed to Tom Watson
[+] [-] dpcan|14 years ago|reply
12 pages of the same idea later...
Moving on to other conversations.
[+] [-] epicviking|14 years ago|reply
Nobody ever wants my books.
[+] [-] rarruda|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrislomax|14 years ago|reply
To quote one, "I'll bung you £100 to do it".
Thanks, I get paid that a day.
[+] [-] kaffeinecoma|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tripzilch|14 years ago|reply
Basically, you either work for free (as a favour to friends or charity) or full charge. No in between.
The power of "free" over "friend's fee" is that they know it's a favour so they can't feel entitled to anything--and if they still do, you may feel entitled to take a dump in their kitchen sink (free of charge).
[+] [-] RobertHubert|14 years ago|reply
All that aside, here is what I do every time someone pitches an idea (no matter who they are and what the idea might be):
1) Listen
2) Think about it (is this unique, good, stupid, wait... don't I already have this app?)
3) Ask them some key questions, (how will it make money? How much time do you have every day to work on this? How much money can you spend on this project? Have you done any research on the idea? What other apps are there like this one?)
4) Pull out the iPhone and do a quick search for obvious app titles matching their idea and show them the results then ask, what about all these? Have you tested all of these?
5) Give them a 30 second lesson on using the internet and the app store to research their ideas. (nicely)
6) Give them my contact info if they don't already have it - even if the idea sucked (remember 90% of your ideas suck too) and why miss an opportunity to network.
7) If the idea sparks an interest, Say hey, Id like to see a layout of that sometime. Or if its really great set up a time for a call.
8) If it blows, don't worry, they will probably have forgotten about it a week later.
9) Congratulate yourself on not being an ass and realize that you helped someone, yourself, and the rest of the developers out there. They will be better prepared the next time they begin the "I have a great idea..." speech.
This only takes 5 mins and you really never know what you might hear. Ideas are great because they make us think, they test us, they inspire us, and sometimes they can make us rich if can figure out how to use them well.
[+] [-] cbs|14 years ago|reply
I have to say I love your attitude towards ideas. I often have ideas for projects outside my wheelhouse (mostly personal projects) and talk to EEs and MEs about building stuff. It would suck if all my friends were archetypal hn-programmer-that-hates-idea-guys, I'd probably even drop them as friends. I'm so out of my depth on some things that I share it just to find out if its a completely stupid idea.
Then again, I like building things for the sake of building them, and know people that do too.
[+] [-] meskyanichi|14 years ago|reply
I believe that the only time I've heard of a decent or good idea was from fellow programmers or designers, rather than "business men" or founders of small companies and claim they know it all. Then after they explain their idea, they expect you to invest 90% of your time on the product, promise you a certain ownership percentage (usually ~10%?), rather than paying a good salary up-front; so if it flops they didn't lose any of their time or had to invest any amount of cash. I believe something similar to this happened to some dude who then open-sourced the project. I forgot what project that was, it happened recently.
You can of course listen to anyone's idea, but as the article stated, the chance that it's not another dumb or over-done idea is usually very slim.
[+] [-] ido|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] craigmc|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michael_dorfman|14 years ago|reply
My approach is to first ask people who their customers will be, and how they plan on selling to them-- and then, if they get past that, I'll hear what the idea is.
[+] [-] wallflower|14 years ago|reply
This answer brings up the commonly echoed sentiment among my mobile developer cohort of the tradeoff between client contracts and your own product work. One is easier, one pays off long term.
[1] This does not necessarily mean for profit. See http://rawsyntax.com/post/5982784556/importance-of-side-proj...
[+] [-] rexreed|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] megablast|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reso|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chubs|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] prpon|14 years ago|reply
I tell them I am busy with my own stuff but I take time to meet and listen to them. After the meeting, I do research, put together a plan with the breakdown of costs for outsourcing development, marketing and the estimated revenue.
That's when I stop hearing from them. They get either too busy or they realize that it's not as easy as they think. I am yet to find someone who followed up on the plan.
Isn't life always like that? Many with plans but very few who act on them.
[+] [-] nhangen|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ThomPete|14 years ago|reply
You think it's a bigger problem for you than it is for those who fail?
I don't understand your point.
[+] [-] omarish|14 years ago|reply
a) Unconstrained mental frameworks: "I want a location-based photo-sharing app that comes with angry birds integration" It can't be that hard. There has to be some plugin on github that solves that problem for you already, since it's a great idea."
Since this idea is guaranteed to produce a billion dollars, any developer would have to be irrational to turn down even a 10% equity offer.
b) Non-linearity of good ideas - I'm finding that it's often fewer features and fewer things that make compelling business ideas / user experiences. See Dan Ariley's TED talk [1]. It's intriguing how a negative feature delta (less is more!) often results in something more compelling.
Understanding if something is a good idea is a problem more akin to finding the optimal way of loading an aircraft, where the problem has to be tested, exposed, and simulated; not a simple forecast model where the answer is binary. People will never know whether they're sitting on a great idea until they test their strategy and see how it turns out.
On a side-note, a friend and I have a small service that attempts to solve this problem. It's called Casual Contracting [2] and tries to frame this problem in a positive light for both devs and idea people.
[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_o...
[2] http://casualcontracting.com
[+] [-] detay|14 years ago|reply
I believe `Angry Birds` is a good example of it. It's success did not come from the idea at all. A simple game with a good execution and good marketing made it so popular.
Agreeing with the article; I just want to add that hearing people's ideas also put you into an awkward position. They give you responsibility of either not doing that application without that person's consent or sharing a revenue.
You usually don't need neither, because as a developer you're already putting more mental work on how to come up with better apps than some friend's mother of yours.
And hearing people like they invented the wheel all the time really is boring.
[+] [-] revorad|14 years ago|reply
Isn't that Instagram? So yeah, always listen to ideas :-)
[+] [-] yakto|14 years ago|reply
There are few niches still unexplored. :)
[+] [-] cbs|14 years ago|reply
The anti-"idea guy" attitude was all ego, no logic. I can't say I'm surprised that it took off as well as it did, it felt good and matched the reality that most ideas suck so it was easy to adopt. I'm not surprised, but a disappointed that more people didn't recognize it for what it was. Oh well, being the only guy hearing the good ideas was fun while it lasted.
[+] [-] stevenp|14 years ago|reply