Even in the last decade, they've still been hard at work upgrading streets, and even some of them more subtle redesigns are absolutely stunning. Dutch street design is really one of the wonders of the modern world, IMO.
There are two things I miss from my home country: hagelslag (chocolate sprinkles), and the utterly amazing bike infrastructure and traffic design in general.
- The highway that was transformed into a canal actually used to be a canal originally as well.
- The group of taxis on the Museumplein were there in response to the murder of a taxi driver [1]. I'm not sure what it usually looked like, but probably not back-to-back filled with taxis.
Most photos seem to come from Utrecht, a large city in the center of The Netherlands that has been very busy purging cars from the city center in recent years.
Since you can reach the city very easily by public transport (and is very easy to traverse on foot or by bike) it is quite delightful to be in.
Up until the 1970s there were plans to add a freeway that would cut right through the city. Some of that infrastructure did get built (visible in the photos that now show a canal again) but thankfully they didn't demolish too many historic buildings along the way...
If you are interested in the ways that The Netherlands tries to keep its cities comfortable and reduce car-centricness (car-centricity?) I can recommend YouTube channel "Not Just Bikes".
I moved to the Netherlands (Amsterdam) a few years ago. I think the main reason the quality of life is so high here is because of the bike infrastructure and how it took over the cars.
This to me is the main reason cost of housing in the cities has skyrocketed - the lack of cars has a profound positive feedback loop towards the quality of life here.
Everything you want to do in the dense city (from shopping to entertainment) happens faster, safer and happier using bikes.
No matter how much you love cars, they're just too big for the density of a city.
But at the end of the day people are in charge of this decision. If the majority of people don't see that bikes are better they will not vote for legislation that will build more bike infra.
It's a testament that Dutch people actually prefer bikes over cars.
The videos are short, informative, engaging, and thought-provoking. Hopefully action-provoking too, since my country, the USA, can use a lot of that change. People here act like it's impossible, but they thought so there too. It's possible and role models help.
While this is beautiful, in my city the anti-car policies have been very hard on my family. My dad unfortunately relies on his car to get to work and isn't wealthy enough to afford a home nearer the city centre to walk or bike. The constant removal of roads and introduction of clean air areas in recent years has made his commute very difficult now.
I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike?
On another note I also used shop in my city centre regularly, but in the last 5 or so years I've started ordering most things from Amazon instead, not because I want to, but because it takes about an hour to get into the city now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Plus, parking is increasingly hard and costs several pounds an hour these days. Sure, I could catch a bus, but that only really works if you're not buying much. I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. I wonder if this is the reason that city centres seem to be increasingly filled with restaurants and lack shops other than a few convince stores? If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Again, I guess I would need to order it online? Are these things not problems in Dutch cities?
It’s hard to explain what a revelation Dutch Urban planning has been to me since I’ve moved here. When you have protected bike lanes literally everywhere you go and riding you bike is always the quickest way to get from A to B for any journey less than 3 km (faster than driving, faster than public transport).
> I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school,
You don’t, you take them in your bakfiets (cargo bike) or they cycle themselves
> or to a holiday destination, etc?
You rent a car? It’s actually easier to drive in a Dutch city than other cities because everyone is not reliant on a car for literally every journey they make, people only use cars when they need to you can still drive cars on the streets, the streets are just not built for cars 1st.
> Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike?
I would say having to own a car to live in a city is far more anti-working-class than making a city completely livable without the need for a car.
I highly recommend watching the YouTube channel Not Just Bikes to get a better understanding of just how brilliant the urban planning is.
>If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school
You don't. School is in walkable distance and kids can cycle themselves since the age of 8 or around. You also don't really live in a city center with kids.
>If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car.
You take more smaller trips to grocery store which is also around the block, since cities are compact.
>Are these things not problems in Dutch cities?
No they aren't really. Life is possible without having a car, but a lot of people still do have them, just not for daily commute in and out of city center.
New developments however have a cap on how many parking places a project can have. Like a project with 9 units (8 of which are family houses) is only alloweed to have 4 parking places and it's not even city center with scarce land, it's newly-build planned district on reclaimed land.
Municipality is not strictly against cars, it's against the city being car-dependent and car-oriented.
I think this is due to how car dependent North America is. There are so many aspects that are missed in these pictures or what you are for example experiencing. It's not that you're situation is improving, it's most likely not. But that's not due to car independent cities being bad, it's because changing from being car dependent to car independent is hard and takes time.
I would recommend you have a look at Not Just Bikes on YouTube, a Canadian that moved to the Netherlands. He talks about car independent cities in Europe, more specifically The Netherlands and compares it to car dependent North America. Here is a video that talks about how these "car independent" countries are still the best to drive in compared to others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k.
Regardless, I would recommend you check out a few other of his videos, most importantly his series on the US non profit organisation "Strong Towns": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ.... It think it's about sharing the message that placing public transport, cyclists, and pedestrians in the forefront is better for almost everyone involved, including drivers, and especially people who live in cities and towns.
> how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc?
The Netherlands is densely populated enough that you can often walk to primary school. Mine is located about 300 meters away, with another primary school about 1 km away. I used to walk by myself without parent supervision.
Secondary high (middle school + high school are one single entity here) are fewer in number so that's when kids start needing bikes. Many kids can bike to school in 30m, but I had classmates who lived in some nearby village and biked for an hour.
My niece in Amsterdam bikes for about 35-45m depending on school location (they have multiple) and biking speed. She takes public transport (tram and metro) on rainy days but door to door commute time is the same.
These days, long bike commutes from villages could probably be more comfortable thanks to electric bikes. No need for car.
One of the clients I've worked for had their office at an airport outside Amsterdam. On most days, I travelled by bike in 45m.
> holiday destination
Holiday destinations tend to be in rural places that are inconvenient to reach by public transport. If younhave a family, then a car is indeed ideal for these destinations.
I find Amsterdam's center to be quite crowded if you're trying to raise a family. But smaller cities' centers don't have that much of a problem even for families.
I do most of my grocery shopping either by walking or by bike. I only use the car if I have to buy a lot. Though quite a lot of people use their car for weekly grocery shopping.
> The constant removal of roads and introduction of clean air areas in recent years has made his commute very difficult now.
Western cities in the 20th century ignored all the tradeoffs presented by cars, so that any time there was a conflict of interests cars simply won. Every time. Of course, the tradeoffs didn't go away. We just declared cars the winner in every case. A re-evaluation of those priorities is going to necessarily mean driving gets marginally harder, because there was no other direction for it to go. Cars were given every single affordance for 100 years. Anything in the opposite direction is going to look like a loss.
Frankly, I doubt that driving in your area is actually all that difficult. You're just used to being prioritized and now you're experiencing a modicum of de-prioritization. You're used to rolling up to your destination and parking directly in front for free. Now that you're being asked to pay some of the actual costs of that convenience, it looks like a burden. You're used to cars being allowed everywhere, no matter the cost to the people who live in those areas you formerly breezed through, and now that they aren't, it looks unfair. When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression, as they say.
> If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc?
The places in the photos are mostly inner city centers. There aren't much family homes there. That said, most kids go to school by bike and often without the parents. So, no need to drop them off by car. If you live in an inner city center and want a car you can rent parking space, for example in the closest parking garage.
I think the contrast with the UK is that our public transport and bike lanes are used very much. It makes sense to remove cars here because the space will actually used by people walking, biking, etc. We try to build walkable/livable cities. Most people live very close to a supermarket or small shopping center. No need for everyone to go to the city center for groceries or many other things.
> I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus.
You don't buy those very often. For those you can still use your car. If you live in a car-free inner city zone you can usually still get to your house by car if you need to. Usually there are certain hours/days where destination traffic is allowed, or you can get a permit.
You use a bicycle. There are cargo bikes or bike seats. From age 7 or so they can be on their own bike and you can cycle alongside them. After a few more years, they can go on their own.
You don't. Please just listen to yourself. Children are more than capable of locomotion. Why would you need to drive them anywhere?
> Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy
Inhospitable? Do you mean unaffordable? That's not really the same thing. Them not being affordable is a separate problem. Houses in desirable cities have all been bought up by landlords decades ago at this point. It's essentially impossible to buy a house in many cities in the UK. You have to rent. I don't like it, but it has nothing to do with town planning.
> I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike?
I live in Amsterdam, as a carless family in a reasonably affluent neighbourhood (not in the city centre). I'd guesstimate that 1/3 to 1/2 of the families in our child's classmates don't own a car. AFAICT every neighbourhood has a few primary schools within walking or cycling distance. (I can reach 3 within 15min walking or 5min cycling.) Anecdotally, it seems roughly 10-20% of the kids are bought by private car (more when the weather is bad). I think for most of those, the parents head straight to work afterwards. Starting age 10 or so, pretty much all kids walk or cycle themselves (between 5 and 10 most of them do so under adult supervision). For holiday destinations reachable by car we rent one, maybe once or twice a year.
> On another note I also used shop in my city centre regularly, but in the last 5 or so years I've started ordering most things from Amazon instead, not because I want to, but because it takes about an hour to get into the city now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Plus, parking is increasingly hard and costs several pounds an hour these days. Sure, I could catch a bus, but that only really works if you're not buying much. I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. I wonder if this is the reason that city centres seem to be increasingly filled with restaurants and lack shops other than a few convince stores? If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Again, I guess I would need to order it online? Are these things not problems in Dutch cities?
We do groceries in person every day or every other day, often on our way to/from school. I can reach 3 supermarkets within 5 minutes cycling. For larger furniture, home delivery is usually more convenient, though occasionally I'd take the street parked shared cars (which are around €30 for 3 hours).
Public transportation is good here, which is the answer to most of your questions.
> now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes.
Why don't you bike or take the bus, then?
> If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car.
Before the pandemic, we did it entirely on bike.
On the other hand, Dutch cities are designed differently, where markets are interspersed with the housing itself.
In fact, we used to just walk to the supermarket about 200m away, but then a bigger version of that supermarket opened up 5 minutes bike ride away, so...
Checkout is super-fast - shopping is so fast many people go every day, if only to get fresh bread. When I lived in New York, we would have one big shop once a week, it was such a chore.
----
In your world, we all drive cars and destroy our biosphere. Is that really what you want for your children?
It's marginally harder. They make do, the ones majorly affected by the slight change in margin go elsewhere. Same as with every other quality of life issue.
Look at the incentives. Large organizations with diffuse responsibility (e.g. government) don't have values other than following the incentives.
Families and seniors suck up tons of the city's social services budget and don't engage in much taxable activity per capita. The incentives are there for the city to want them gone and there is no incentive for the city to not to things that make them want to leave.
The counter incentive that applies to all the people (politicians, bureaucrats, etc,) in the system but not to the system as a whole is the incentive not to do anything too terrible or mean spirited and society likes families and doesn't want to harm them. That's what causes things to reach some semblance of an equilibrium.
In my city there are a few designated "company parks" which are highway or provincial road -accessible "citadels" with a bunch of companies that specialize in large goods, rug stores, furniture, ikea, big box stores, hardware stores, bulk size corporate supermarkets, that sort of thing.
The transformation is amazing. It’s also deeply discouraging that this kind of change takes 40 years. I long to live in a city built for people instead of cars, but for that to exist in the US so I don’t have to cut off my extended family the way that moving abroad would do. But realistically I won’t live long enough, even if some US city decided tomorrow to copy the Netherlands model verbatim.
Optimistic note: It doesn't have to take 40 years.
One of the reasons it took so long in the Netherlands (ignoring the politics for a moment, which were not as smooth sailing as many assume) is because the Dutch were, literally and figuratively, paving the way—they had no other country to copy. Protected bike lanes, protected intersections, protected roundabouts, bike superhighways, best-practice bike parking and curb design and bike lane texture and lighting...it was all more or less invented by the Dutch, which took time.
But now that the Dutch have spent 40 years figuring out what works, other countries are free to copy all of it. (The Dutch have even translated their best-practice guide into English: https://crowplatform.com/)
Of course, construction takes time. But it doesn't have to take 40 years—you can accomplish a lot with political will and quick-build infrastructure (see: Paris [1]). I think most US cities (NYC, Boston, Portland) could start looking like the Netherlands in about 10-20 years as soon as they get serious about infrastructure.
Yeah, it's interesting to me how China (and Hong Kong, etc.) have seemed to follow the discredited Le Corbusier model of tall isolated residential towers surrounded by trees and roads. Perhaps it's a mistake or perhaps it's a requirement for density? Medium density development like Barcelona or Brooklyn is really surprisingly dense—enough for almost everywhere in the western world. China has just far more people, though, so maybe they need to go taller.
I think one needs to be a bit careful about copying this. I've noticed a similar anti-car trend (I don't mind bike lanes) in my country in recent years, but the cities are kind of too small for it to work. When they make it impossible to park in the city centers people who already rely on their cars for their daily lives just stop going there and go to the malls in the outskirts of the city instead. And once the customers stop coming to the city centers, the shops go out of business and you no longer find anything but coffee shops and supermarkets there anymore.
Can someone comment on streetlife during dutch winters? 20m bike ride for everyday errands during summer is tolerable. But 40m walk during winter and I'm biasing towards private vehicle. I suppose if transit is reliable, which covid squeeze on my transit agency has made public transit last few weeks more miserable than it should be.
Never been in the Netherlands, although I've a relative living in Amsterdam, but should I one day visit the country, I'll make sure to take a trip to Delft. I saw a few pictures of that town years ago and it literally conquered me.
Amsterdam is gone mad with their anti car policy. Most people here I guess are in their 20 and 30s. Living in small apartments in bigger cities without children. For them it's fine.
But once you reach 40 and have older children you need a car still, because it makes live much easier. Life is not only the city (fortunately)
I actually left Amsterdam because of their insane car policy. At some point I wasn't able to park my car near my home anymore ,because they decided to reduce parking spots. Everyday I was commuting to a spot outside of the city where my car was parked. I now comfortably live in a village 30km outside of Amsterdam. I can park 3 cars if I want.
That's also a reason why most people leave Amsterdam once kids turn 5 years old. The city is now only with 20s and 30s people. A pitty.
Getting a car when you have kids is, happily, a lifestyle choice in Amsterdam, one where you choose personal convenience over the health and happiness of others. We have two kids and a cargo bike and don't need or miss having a car in Amsterdam, and we're hardly unique in that...
We may hope that one day we'll look back at this practice of having personal cars sitting around in cities as a backward phenomenon, something like open sewers.
looks great! however when I lived in the Netherlands (Den Haag and Amsterdam) there were a number of issues I encountered that were not so apparent:
- trams are pedestrian killers and bike accident machines. and they move through city centers, where density is huge. as such trams would constantly hit people. i had my bicycle wheels stuck in tram lines countless times, every single time i got stuck i fell on the pavement. and the pavement was usually a brick road, which hurt me twice as much as tarmac.
- the dutch use big and heavy dutch bikes. this means that an accident with one of those bikes leads to a lot more hospitalisations than with a light race bike. and since those dutch bikes are so big and heavy, they're really really slow, but it's their weight that produces accidents. the upside is that those dutch bikes have some big wheels they don't get stuck in tram lines.
- there were too many bikes. had to be written. bike users in the netherlands seem entitled to own every part of the road. there were traffic jams full of bikes. there were fights between bike users. there were drunk people on bikes, lots of them.
- bike theft is constant and prevalent across the country. you can't really buy a nice bike and not have it stolen. seems weird since everyone bikes, but it is what it is. insurance is a must. had mine stolen from outside my home, from in front of a bar, from in front of a supermarket, from inside one of those secure bike lockers.
- a regular pastime of dutch people is to throw stuff into their canals. cars, bikes, they just throw them for kicks. insurance is a must, again.
- a friend owned a car. you can't really live in the dutch countryside without owning a car. but good luck trying to enter a city center with a car. also good luck parking anywhere inside a city. and even if you find a spot you will get a fine if one wheel crosses or sits on top the parking line. this makes it into a weird two-tier society. you want to go to the city center? then you'll need to park outside the train station.
- living in a suburb and travelling to the city center means using a taxi (extremely expensive without reason) or using a slow tram. if it's winter and freezing, trams usually stop working. and then you'll have to use a bike. because it's winter you will get sweaty and smelly. but again, it is what it is.
finally, there are many advantages to living in a dutch city. good train connections, lots of easy walks, a mentality towards integrating with nature, great minimalist architecture. but there are many downsides as well. besides the above points, there is extreme inequality, there are multiple types of citizenship (so only some are proper first grate dutch citizens), frugalness is a dutch trait, organised crime is rampant, everything is more expensive than any neighbouring country (people constantly move to Belgium for the lower taxes for example). after two years i moved out.
(1) dutch kids learn to cross the tramlines at right angles, and to give trams right of way at all times (because they have that right of way)
(2) those big heavy bikes are slow, and accidents are typically 'oh, sorry' and then both parties are on their way again.
(3) no, there aren't enough bikes yet. It sure looks like you judge your view of the Dutch and their bikes on one major inner city. NL is a lot larger than that and bikes are an essential ingredient of society here (and of our health!).
(4) bike theft too is a problem of the big cities mostly
I completely sympathise with your tram complains. Trams are cheaper than a metro system but they also have almost all of the drawbacks with few of the benefits.
However, I just don't understand your complaints about bicycles. Yes, bicycles can be heavy and when a lot of people use them there are many of them. But what, exactly, do you think is the alternative? Cars are heavier and even more awful en masse. Walking by foot just takes a long time and doesn't get you very far. Should people run everywhere?
[+] [-] zachkatz|4 years ago|reply
Even in the last decade, they've still been hard at work upgrading streets, and even some of them more subtle redesigns are absolutely stunning. Dutch street design is really one of the wonders of the modern world, IMO.
[+] [-] vanderZwan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] isoprophlex|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oliwarner|4 years ago|reply
Any road or pavement changes in the UK seem to come with total deforestation, and sticking some 2yo saplings back in to replace them.
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] rambambram|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TomSwirly|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Vinnl|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Vinnl|4 years ago|reply
- The highway that was transformed into a canal actually used to be a canal originally as well.
- The group of taxis on the Museumplein were there in response to the murder of a taxi driver [1]. I'm not sure what it usually looked like, but probably not back-to-back filled with taxis.
[1] https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/onderzoeken/fotocollectie/ad...
[+] [-] royjacobs|4 years ago|reply
Since you can reach the city very easily by public transport (and is very easy to traverse on foot or by bike) it is quite delightful to be in.
Up until the 1970s there were plans to add a freeway that would cut right through the city. Some of that infrastructure did get built (visible in the photos that now show a canal again) but thankfully they didn't demolish too many historic buildings along the way...
If you are interested in the ways that The Netherlands tries to keep its cities comfortable and reduce car-centricness (car-centricity?) I can recommend YouTube channel "Not Just Bikes".
[+] [-] sktrdie|4 years ago|reply
This to me is the main reason cost of housing in the cities has skyrocketed - the lack of cars has a profound positive feedback loop towards the quality of life here.
Everything you want to do in the dense city (from shopping to entertainment) happens faster, safer and happier using bikes.
No matter how much you love cars, they're just too big for the density of a city.
But at the end of the day people are in charge of this decision. If the majority of people don't see that bikes are better they will not vote for legislation that will build more bike infra.
It's a testament that Dutch people actually prefer bikes over cars.
[+] [-] spodek|4 years ago|reply
Everyone should watch the channel Not Just Bikes https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A, by a guy who moved to Holland and learned what makes those transformations possible, in my opinion.
The videos are short, informative, engaging, and thought-provoking. Hopefully action-provoking too, since my country, the USA, can use a lot of that change. People here act like it's impossible, but they thought so there too. It's possible and role models help.
[+] [-] kypro|4 years ago|reply
I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike?
On another note I also used shop in my city centre regularly, but in the last 5 or so years I've started ordering most things from Amazon instead, not because I want to, but because it takes about an hour to get into the city now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Plus, parking is increasingly hard and costs several pounds an hour these days. Sure, I could catch a bus, but that only really works if you're not buying much. I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. I wonder if this is the reason that city centres seem to be increasingly filled with restaurants and lack shops other than a few convince stores? If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Again, I guess I would need to order it online? Are these things not problems in Dutch cities?
[+] [-] 3uler|4 years ago|reply
> I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, You don’t, you take them in your bakfiets (cargo bike) or they cycle themselves
> or to a holiday destination, etc? You rent a car? It’s actually easier to drive in a Dutch city than other cities because everyone is not reliant on a car for literally every journey they make, people only use cars when they need to you can still drive cars on the streets, the streets are just not built for cars 1st.
> Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike?
I would say having to own a car to live in a city is far more anti-working-class than making a city completely livable without the need for a car.
I highly recommend watching the YouTube channel Not Just Bikes to get a better understanding of just how brilliant the urban planning is.
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A
[+] [-] Muromec|4 years ago|reply
You don't. School is in walkable distance and kids can cycle themselves since the age of 8 or around. You also don't really live in a city center with kids.
>If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car.
You take more smaller trips to grocery store which is also around the block, since cities are compact.
>Are these things not problems in Dutch cities?
No they aren't really. Life is possible without having a car, but a lot of people still do have them, just not for daily commute in and out of city center.
New developments however have a cap on how many parking places a project can have. Like a project with 9 units (8 of which are family houses) is only alloweed to have 4 parking places and it's not even city center with scarce land, it's newly-build planned district on reclaimed land.
Municipality is not strictly against cars, it's against the city being car-dependent and car-oriented.
[+] [-] Improvotter|4 years ago|reply
I would recommend you have a look at Not Just Bikes on YouTube, a Canadian that moved to the Netherlands. He talks about car independent cities in Europe, more specifically The Netherlands and compares it to car dependent North America. Here is a video that talks about how these "car independent" countries are still the best to drive in compared to others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k.
Regardless, I would recommend you check out a few other of his videos, most importantly his series on the US non profit organisation "Strong Towns": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ.... It think it's about sharing the message that placing public transport, cyclists, and pedestrians in the forefront is better for almost everyone involved, including drivers, and especially people who live in cities and towns.
[+] [-] FooBarWidget|4 years ago|reply
The Netherlands is densely populated enough that you can often walk to primary school. Mine is located about 300 meters away, with another primary school about 1 km away. I used to walk by myself without parent supervision.
Secondary high (middle school + high school are one single entity here) are fewer in number so that's when kids start needing bikes. Many kids can bike to school in 30m, but I had classmates who lived in some nearby village and biked for an hour.
My niece in Amsterdam bikes for about 35-45m depending on school location (they have multiple) and biking speed. She takes public transport (tram and metro) on rainy days but door to door commute time is the same.
These days, long bike commutes from villages could probably be more comfortable thanks to electric bikes. No need for car.
One of the clients I've worked for had their office at an airport outside Amsterdam. On most days, I travelled by bike in 45m.
> holiday destination
Holiday destinations tend to be in rural places that are inconvenient to reach by public transport. If younhave a family, then a car is indeed ideal for these destinations.
I find Amsterdam's center to be quite crowded if you're trying to raise a family. But smaller cities' centers don't have that much of a problem even for families.
I do most of my grocery shopping either by walking or by bike. I only use the car if I have to buy a lot. Though quite a lot of people use their car for weekly grocery shopping.
[+] [-] dionidium|4 years ago|reply
Western cities in the 20th century ignored all the tradeoffs presented by cars, so that any time there was a conflict of interests cars simply won. Every time. Of course, the tradeoffs didn't go away. We just declared cars the winner in every case. A re-evaluation of those priorities is going to necessarily mean driving gets marginally harder, because there was no other direction for it to go. Cars were given every single affordance for 100 years. Anything in the opposite direction is going to look like a loss.
Frankly, I doubt that driving in your area is actually all that difficult. You're just used to being prioritized and now you're experiencing a modicum of de-prioritization. You're used to rolling up to your destination and parking directly in front for free. Now that you're being asked to pay some of the actual costs of that convenience, it looks like a burden. You're used to cars being allowed everywhere, no matter the cost to the people who live in those areas you formerly breezed through, and now that they aren't, it looks unfair. When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression, as they say.
[+] [-] Sander_Marechal|4 years ago|reply
The places in the photos are mostly inner city centers. There aren't much family homes there. That said, most kids go to school by bike and often without the parents. So, no need to drop them off by car. If you live in an inner city center and want a car you can rent parking space, for example in the closest parking garage.
I think the contrast with the UK is that our public transport and bike lanes are used very much. It makes sense to remove cars here because the space will actually used by people walking, biking, etc. We try to build walkable/livable cities. Most people live very close to a supermarket or small shopping center. No need for everyone to go to the city center for groceries or many other things.
> I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus.
You don't buy those very often. For those you can still use your car. If you live in a car-free inner city zone you can usually still get to your house by car if you need to. Usually there are certain hours/days where destination traffic is allowed, or you can get a permit.
[+] [-] y7|4 years ago|reply
You use a bicycle. There are cargo bikes or bike seats. From age 7 or so they can be on their own bike and you can cycle alongside them. After a few more years, they can go on their own.
[+] [-] globular-toast|4 years ago|reply
You don't. Please just listen to yourself. Children are more than capable of locomotion. Why would you need to drive them anywhere?
> Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy
Inhospitable? Do you mean unaffordable? That's not really the same thing. Them not being affordable is a separate problem. Houses in desirable cities have all been bought up by landlords decades ago at this point. It's essentially impossible to buy a house in many cities in the UK. You have to rent. I don't like it, but it has nothing to do with town planning.
[+] [-] em500|4 years ago|reply
I live in Amsterdam, as a carless family in a reasonably affluent neighbourhood (not in the city centre). I'd guesstimate that 1/3 to 1/2 of the families in our child's classmates don't own a car. AFAICT every neighbourhood has a few primary schools within walking or cycling distance. (I can reach 3 within 15min walking or 5min cycling.) Anecdotally, it seems roughly 10-20% of the kids are bought by private car (more when the weather is bad). I think for most of those, the parents head straight to work afterwards. Starting age 10 or so, pretty much all kids walk or cycle themselves (between 5 and 10 most of them do so under adult supervision). For holiday destinations reachable by car we rent one, maybe once or twice a year.
> On another note I also used shop in my city centre regularly, but in the last 5 or so years I've started ordering most things from Amazon instead, not because I want to, but because it takes about an hour to get into the city now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Plus, parking is increasingly hard and costs several pounds an hour these days. Sure, I could catch a bus, but that only really works if you're not buying much. I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. I wonder if this is the reason that city centres seem to be increasingly filled with restaurants and lack shops other than a few convince stores? If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Again, I guess I would need to order it online? Are these things not problems in Dutch cities?
We do groceries in person every day or every other day, often on our way to/from school. I can reach 3 supermarkets within 5 minutes cycling. For larger furniture, home delivery is usually more convenient, though occasionally I'd take the street parked shared cars (which are around €30 for 3 hours).
[+] [-] TomSwirly|4 years ago|reply
> now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes.
Why don't you bike or take the bus, then?
> If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car.
Before the pandemic, we did it entirely on bike.
On the other hand, Dutch cities are designed differently, where markets are interspersed with the housing itself.
In fact, we used to just walk to the supermarket about 200m away, but then a bigger version of that supermarket opened up 5 minutes bike ride away, so...
Checkout is super-fast - shopping is so fast many people go every day, if only to get fresh bread. When I lived in New York, we would have one big shop once a week, it was such a chore.
----
In your world, we all drive cars and destroy our biosphere. Is that really what you want for your children?
[+] [-] Isinlor|4 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=72s
200 000 people live there, and in January, during polar twilight their daily average temperature is −8C (17F) and 50% school trips are on bikes.
[+] [-] throwaway0a5e|4 years ago|reply
It's marginally harder. They make do, the ones majorly affected by the slight change in margin go elsewhere. Same as with every other quality of life issue.
Look at the incentives. Large organizations with diffuse responsibility (e.g. government) don't have values other than following the incentives.
Families and seniors suck up tons of the city's social services budget and don't engage in much taxable activity per capita. The incentives are there for the city to want them gone and there is no incentive for the city to not to things that make them want to leave.
The counter incentive that applies to all the people (politicians, bureaucrats, etc,) in the system but not to the system as a whole is the incentive not to do anything too terrible or mean spirited and society likes families and doesn't want to harm them. That's what causes things to reach some semblance of an equilibrium.
[+] [-] isoprophlex|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bruce343434|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Scarblac|4 years ago|reply
Kids walk or cycle to school. Groceries can be done on bicycle. There is good public transport.
But I'm quite sure the majority of the people still commute to work by car.
[+] [-] jacquesm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] everyone|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dgudkov|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] burlesona|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zachkatz|4 years ago|reply
One of the reasons it took so long in the Netherlands (ignoring the politics for a moment, which were not as smooth sailing as many assume) is because the Dutch were, literally and figuratively, paving the way—they had no other country to copy. Protected bike lanes, protected intersections, protected roundabouts, bike superhighways, best-practice bike parking and curb design and bike lane texture and lighting...it was all more or less invented by the Dutch, which took time.
But now that the Dutch have spent 40 years figuring out what works, other countries are free to copy all of it. (The Dutch have even translated their best-practice guide into English: https://crowplatform.com/)
Of course, construction takes time. But it doesn't have to take 40 years—you can accomplish a lot with political will and quick-build infrastructure (see: Paris [1]). I think most US cities (NYC, Boston, Portland) could start looking like the Netherlands in about 10-20 years as soon as they get serious about infrastructure.
[1] https://twitter.com/BrentToderian/status/1472894991177371648
[+] [-] ekianjo|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mastax|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] forinti|4 years ago|reply
In my country every new bike lane is a new battle. And after some initial progress, it seems governments have given up.
[+] [-] zppln|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dirtyid|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] squarefoot|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alamortsubite|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] holoduke|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LeonidasXIV|4 years ago|reply
Glad you found a place where you can park 3 cars, it is very useful to have so many cars.
[+] [-] berg_berg|4 years ago|reply
We may hope that one day we'll look back at this practice of having personal cars sitting around in cities as a backward phenomenon, something like open sewers.
[+] [-] em500|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kmlx|4 years ago|reply
- trams are pedestrian killers and bike accident machines. and they move through city centers, where density is huge. as such trams would constantly hit people. i had my bicycle wheels stuck in tram lines countless times, every single time i got stuck i fell on the pavement. and the pavement was usually a brick road, which hurt me twice as much as tarmac.
- the dutch use big and heavy dutch bikes. this means that an accident with one of those bikes leads to a lot more hospitalisations than with a light race bike. and since those dutch bikes are so big and heavy, they're really really slow, but it's their weight that produces accidents. the upside is that those dutch bikes have some big wheels they don't get stuck in tram lines.
- there were too many bikes. had to be written. bike users in the netherlands seem entitled to own every part of the road. there were traffic jams full of bikes. there were fights between bike users. there were drunk people on bikes, lots of them.
- bike theft is constant and prevalent across the country. you can't really buy a nice bike and not have it stolen. seems weird since everyone bikes, but it is what it is. insurance is a must. had mine stolen from outside my home, from in front of a bar, from in front of a supermarket, from inside one of those secure bike lockers.
- a regular pastime of dutch people is to throw stuff into their canals. cars, bikes, they just throw them for kicks. insurance is a must, again.
- a friend owned a car. you can't really live in the dutch countryside without owning a car. but good luck trying to enter a city center with a car. also good luck parking anywhere inside a city. and even if you find a spot you will get a fine if one wheel crosses or sits on top the parking line. this makes it into a weird two-tier society. you want to go to the city center? then you'll need to park outside the train station.
- living in a suburb and travelling to the city center means using a taxi (extremely expensive without reason) or using a slow tram. if it's winter and freezing, trams usually stop working. and then you'll have to use a bike. because it's winter you will get sweaty and smelly. but again, it is what it is.
finally, there are many advantages to living in a dutch city. good train connections, lots of easy walks, a mentality towards integrating with nature, great minimalist architecture. but there are many downsides as well. besides the above points, there is extreme inequality, there are multiple types of citizenship (so only some are proper first grate dutch citizens), frugalness is a dutch trait, organised crime is rampant, everything is more expensive than any neighbouring country (people constantly move to Belgium for the lower taxes for example). after two years i moved out.
[+] [-] jacquesm|4 years ago|reply
(2) those big heavy bikes are slow, and accidents are typically 'oh, sorry' and then both parties are on their way again.
(3) no, there aren't enough bikes yet. It sure looks like you judge your view of the Dutch and their bikes on one major inner city. NL is a lot larger than that and bikes are an essential ingredient of society here (and of our health!).
(4) bike theft too is a problem of the big cities mostly
[+] [-] kqr|4 years ago|reply
However, I just don't understand your complaints about bicycles. Yes, bicycles can be heavy and when a lot of people use them there are many of them. But what, exactly, do you think is the alternative? Cars are heavier and even more awful en masse. Walking by foot just takes a long time and doesn't get you very far. Should people run everywhere?
[+] [-] wiseowise|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway55421|4 years ago|reply
Until the road outside my house is pedestrianised.
Then I move further out and everything I do pollutes more, heh.
There's a balance between 0 cars and all cars.