EI benefits are generally only given if you lose your employment through no fault of your own (didn't quit or get fired). What this policy does is clarify that losing work hours or your job due to vaccine refusal after a workplace vaccination mandate (outside of medical exemptions) does NOT count as "through no fault of your own", and instructs employers to indicate as such.
So: For the duration of the pandemic, if your workplace mandates COVID vaccination and you refuse and then get fired over it, you're not eligible for EI any more than you would be if you got fired for cause.
That's an interesting point to make and defendable but these declarations mentioned in another comment, I will assume to be true, coming from Trudeau, Canada's president:
“They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynistic and racist....This leads us, as a leader and as a country, to make a choice: Do we tolerate these people?"
I have taken both shots, and will take the third but these declarations are appropriate for a mad man, not a country leader.
>“They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynistic and racist....This leads us, as a leader and as a country, to make a choice: Do we tolerate these people?"
My dad spent his life working in public health, including vaccinations. “Doesn’t believe in science and progress” and “very often misogynistic and racist” is how Trudeau would describe your typical villager in Asia or Africa—the people my dad spent a lifetime serving. But Trudeau’s unrelated moral crusades are utterly irrelevant to the issue of public health, and he’s deeply damaging the public health effort by trying to tie them together. This is public health 101. You don’t use health as a vehicle for ideological issues because that destroys trust. E.g. if your Muslim villager won’t see a female doctor you find a male doctor. If pregnant women in Bangladeshi villages don’t trust western educated doctors, you build referral relationships with traditional midwives. (That one is a true story.) Health is the first and last consideration.
Edit: Whoops, Privacy Badger had deleted the embedded video. Check that if you're not seeing it.
OK, so he said that we all know people who are hesitant to get the vaccine and we'll be considerate of them, but there is also a small group that is unequivocally opposed to the vaccine (who don't believe in science, who are often racist, mysoginist etc). About them we have to make a choice: Do we tolerate them, or do we say look, most people are vaccinated, we want to go back to the things we like doing, and these people are blocking us.
So yeah, throwing in the racist and mysoginist thing was in poor taste. Hardly Watergate material, though.
Is there room for those of us who believe the mRNA vaccines are effective at reducing transmission and severe disease yet don’t want to relegate our fellow citizens to second class status for not wanting to inject themselves with something they’re not sure about? We seem all too ready to ruin the lives of those who don’t want the jab.
There are a lot more of us than the media would lead you to believe. I have 2 shots and have no problem working alongside those with zero.
In the US/Canada for most people to keep your house you have to work for a corporation. Having your employer as the vaccine enforcer means they have no real free choice. It’s comply or become homeless.
Not working for most is far more damaging than contracting Covid. To deny them government benefits they paid for via taxes because they don’t want to take the vaccine is absurd.
The whole “I don’t want the unvaccinated to put me at risk” crowd can just go seal themselves up in a bubble.
You can’t avoid contracting Covid forever at this point. There is 3x vaccine shots to protect you and now antiviral cocktails.
Previously Covid-infected, two Pfizers in me, scheduled for the booster on Wednesday, but I definitely feel that forcing people into vaccination by economic and political pressure is going to backfire. If the root problem is lack of trust, use of force will likely make it worse.
I concur with this sentiment as well. The only thing that causes equivocation for me is the possibility of overloaded hospitals. However, at this point, I don't think an attempt to strong arm people is going to improve the adoption of the vaccine by those who have not already received it.
I also, having taken the full course of an mRNA vaccine and booster, am not willing to participate in the "vaccination card ID to enter businesses" that is recently popular in some places.
I am also in this boat. The jab-rejecters' behaviour is often called "reckless" for stressing the hospital system. But we see reckless behavior outside of vaccines too: drunk driving, general violence, daredevil stunts and extreme sports. All these things can lead to hospitalization, but we "tolerate" treatment of these cases in hospitalization.
I don't think any anti-vaxxer expects to end up hospitalized, just as nobody driving drunk expects to go and kill somebody with their car.
Where is the court system? The court system has been very much in lines with these stupidities we have been seeing around mandates and so on, which makes me make a much more cynical claim. Leaders like Justin Trudeau don’t give a damn about science/progress and public health and well being for example. If they did, we wouldn’t be this far along the crisis and still be talking about this. My thinking is they are setting these things as a precedent (through legislative and court system rubber stamping these policies) for the next crisis. Could it be a looming debt crisis and using that crisis as a pretext to have more control on property rights and other basic rights in the constitution? Who knows. But if one thing, if a set of “experts” (who have been proven wrong in many instances and have done a terrible job in public communication) calls something a crisis then all your basic rights in constitution can be annulled using that as a pretext. That precedent has been established clearly and sadly court system has done nothing but rubber stamping this.
I was born and lived under one rule of tyranny (communist Czechoslovakia), and the legal & judicial professions suffered tremendously there. In fact, they were among the first to go, replaced by something truly heinous.
Like, what do these judges and lawyers who keep silent expect will happen, once basic civil liberties & human rights are disbanded?
(no matter whether disbanded directly or through some bullshit round-about "we didn't kill you, we just hired mercenaries / didn't let you live / work / travel; if you don't like it why didn't you emigrate?")
Lots of people in this thread are arguing the "do the vaccines reduce spread thing" as justification for or against this policy. I don't think that even matters.
These vaccines have risks that are not being opening discussed. There is an unprecedented systematic campaign of censorship, deception and propaganda aimed at people who question anything about these vaccines. Vaccine injuries are real. The performance of these vaccines are not meeting expectations. They should not be mandated, full stop. We need a system based on informed consent, not coercion.
I don't understand, if the vaccines work then why the issue? However the vaccines don't stop you catching or spreading the virus, so why is this banning of the unvaccinated a thing?
My understanding is that the vaccines aren’t completely effective at stopping you catching/spreading, but they are a whole lot better than being immune naive altogether. Casual googling has given me some Washington state pdf data that says even in the most robust cohort (13-29 year olds) unvaccinated folks get Covid at 3x the rate of unvaccinated and the differences only get more dramatic from there.
If you have more robust information though I’d like to know of it.
Edit: please note this was published in dec 29 2021, with data up to that point, and therefore also incorporates omicron.
The vaccines do work by diminishing severity of symptoms and thus reducing rate of hospitalization.
The unvaccinated are banned as means to put social and financial pressure on individuals to get the vaccine. It is an unfortunate misconception that any of the currently-approved intramuscular vaccines reduce transmission to a meaningful degree.
This social and financial pressure is placed on individuals because urban hospitals do not have the money or resources to deal with the rate at which they're admitting patients for severe Covid-19, and most of the patients they're admitting are unvaccinated.
Big American corporations have often made their money through subsidies.
Enforcing everyone to take the jabs increases those subsidies (this enforcement is persistent in all countries submissive to USA). That's what makes sense.
However, don't assert altruism because there isn't any.
The 'save lives' campaign is just a coating to make things easy for the general public to swallow.
This is incorrect. Vaccines DO reduce (to different extents based on people and variant) infection and transmission:
1. It’s harder for the virus to enter your body
2. If it gets in, you will get less sick (lower chance of symptoms)
3. Your body will fight it off faster
4. The virus has a harder time replicating in your body
Due to 2, 3 and 4, the ability to transmit virus to others goes down.
> I don't understand, if the vaccines work then why the issue?
Vaccines work the same way car seat belts and airbags do: they improve the/your odds. They make you much less likely to be infected, and because less likely to be infected, less likely to pass it on.
> If seatbelt-wearers outnumber non-wearers by four to one, but account for roughly the same number of deaths, it suggests seatbelt-wearers are about one-fourth as likely to die in an accident as non-wearers. That shocking statistic turns out to be not so shocking as all that.
Its more of the same tactic in politics as used by chief nazi propagandists: "Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred."
It still surprises me how efficiently all our worlds leaders shifted blame from them for our shitty covid health response to the unvaccinated as though the vaccine was available from the beginning.
I can understand why the push for vaccines even though they don't stop spreading and catching it. They seem to improve chances of survival and lessen chances of severe disease.
That said, if the government takes away benefits, then it should give back all the taxes withheld on one's salary before it does that.
On another note, personally I don't see any other solution to the pandemic, other than everybody/most people gaining some kind of natural immunity. Places requiring some form of green pass are none other than VIP superspreader events, where the Green Pass is the VIP ticket. People holding the Green Pass, will then go to meet others who may or may not be vaccinated, but who will eventually catch Covid.
The scariest part of all this hysteria is that the exact same arguments can be found in (almost) every country. France is turning crazy, germany was, austria, etc. Everybody applies the same « non-vaxxed are a threat to vaxxed » almost absurd statement, without blinking.
It really really makes you wonder if western governments are trying to prove conspiracy theoricians right.
A year ago this would've been called a conspiracy theory. Saying that this would happen on Facebook or Twitter would've been called misleading or even got you banned.
This is complete BS and I say that as a vaccinated health care worker. They are now considering putting sick but vaccinated workers back to work instead of not sick but unvaccinated. How can they justify that? It seems pretty obvious they are not worried about public health but rather some sort of control over people. Do as we say or you will be punished. I am feeling disgraced as a Canadian. And am sorry for my fellow workers who choose not to get vaccinated and lost their jobs.
I've been asking friends that believe in such punishments whether they would have punished gay people in the 1990s that got AIDS. Condoms are extremely effective at preventing transmission. Invariably no one wants to go there. Gay people with AIDS that didn't use a condom are to be cried over in our society, while those with COVID that didn't take the vaccine are to be punished.
Anytime you take a plant from the forrest - tearing it from it's roots to plant it inside your green house - if you give it the fertilizer and the ammount of water you think is required while depriving it from it's environment - are you responsible if it's life expectency is drastically shortened and it dies?
Agent contraints dictate survival.
What about mandating corporate structures to have vaccines distributed to every single person on earth at the lowest cost under threat?
The vaccines might just get better too if they need to make fewer doses.
Yes evil people exist; I've had the honor to meet a few.
Total vaccination will not mitigate what is naively feared as the worst.
Creation of these incentive structures is not conducive for the longterm survival of critical thought.
I've lost more people to sickness via policy than virus itself.
Scientific experimentation has been my life and I will die too.
It seems we are heading in a direction where those who don't take the jab will be blocked from receiving government services, prevented from patronizing various businesses, and even restricted from traveling and the ability to work. Are most citizens really okay with this medical apartheid, or are they afraid of speaking out against it?
Does vaccination still offer a public health benefit?
To be clear vaccination is good, people should be vaccinated, I have been vaccinated three times, etc, etc but does vaccination still offer a public health benefit vs just being a good idea for your own personal health?
So what the Canadian government is they would rather kill you with blood clots than let you take a 1/1000 chance of dying from a terror weapon made by the Chinese.
[+] [-] kstenerud|4 years ago|reply
EI benefits are generally only given if you lose your employment through no fault of your own (didn't quit or get fired). What this policy does is clarify that losing work hours or your job due to vaccine refusal after a workplace vaccination mandate (outside of medical exemptions) does NOT count as "through no fault of your own", and instructs employers to indicate as such.
So: For the duration of the pandemic, if your workplace mandates COVID vaccination and you refuse and then get fired over it, you're not eligible for EI any more than you would be if you got fired for cause.
[+] [-] LaunchAway1|4 years ago|reply
“They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynistic and racist....This leads us, as a leader and as a country, to make a choice: Do we tolerate these people?"
I have taken both shots, and will take the third but these declarations are appropriate for a mad man, not a country leader.
[+] [-] bserge|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] aaron695|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] guidovranken|4 years ago|reply
>Canada's Justin Trudeau on the unvaccinated:
>“They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynistic and racist....This leads us, as a leader and as a country, to make a choice: Do we tolerate these people?"
https://twitter.com/KevinBardosh/status/1476838517007257600
My patience with COVID cultists is starting to run quite thin.
[+] [-] rayiner|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iqanq|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moralestapia|4 years ago|reply
Whew, hyperbole of the year.
[+] [-] kstenerud|4 years ago|reply
OK, so he said that we all know people who are hesitant to get the vaccine and we'll be considerate of them, but there is also a small group that is unequivocally opposed to the vaccine (who don't believe in science, who are often racist, mysoginist etc). About them we have to make a choice: Do we tolerate them, or do we say look, most people are vaccinated, we want to go back to the things we like doing, and these people are blocking us.
So yeah, throwing in the racist and mysoginist thing was in poor taste. Hardly Watergate material, though.
Edit 2: Whoops, deleted the video link, but it's already in another comment. https://westernstandardonline.com/2021/12/trudeau-calls-the-...
Edit 3: I had originally said there was no video to look at. Please don't downvote the respondent.
[+] [-] charlieyu1|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joelbondurant0|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] ekianjo|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] random314|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Spivak|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] huntertwo|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] klipklop|4 years ago|reply
In the US/Canada for most people to keep your house you have to work for a corporation. Having your employer as the vaccine enforcer means they have no real free choice. It’s comply or become homeless.
Not working for most is far more damaging than contracting Covid. To deny them government benefits they paid for via taxes because they don’t want to take the vaccine is absurd.
The whole “I don’t want the unvaccinated to put me at risk” crowd can just go seal themselves up in a bubble.
You can’t avoid contracting Covid forever at this point. There is 3x vaccine shots to protect you and now antiviral cocktails.
[+] [-] inglor_cz|4 years ago|reply
Previously Covid-infected, two Pfizers in me, scheduled for the booster on Wednesday, but I definitely feel that forcing people into vaccination by economic and political pressure is going to backfire. If the root problem is lack of trust, use of force will likely make it worse.
[+] [-] rainbowzootsuit|4 years ago|reply
I also, having taken the full course of an mRNA vaccine and booster, am not willing to participate in the "vaccination card ID to enter businesses" that is recently popular in some places.
[+] [-] exolymph|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jaks6|4 years ago|reply
I don't think any anti-vaxxer expects to end up hospitalized, just as nobody driving drunk expects to go and kill somebody with their car.
[+] [-] MikusR|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mercy_dude|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Radim|4 years ago|reply
I was born and lived under one rule of tyranny (communist Czechoslovakia), and the legal & judicial professions suffered tremendously there. In fact, they were among the first to go, replaced by something truly heinous.
Like, what do these judges and lawyers who keep silent expect will happen, once basic civil liberties & human rights are disbanded? (no matter whether disbanded directly or through some bullshit round-about "we didn't kill you, we just hired mercenaries / didn't let you live / work / travel; if you don't like it why didn't you emigrate?")
[+] [-] crisdux|4 years ago|reply
These vaccines have risks that are not being opening discussed. There is an unprecedented systematic campaign of censorship, deception and propaganda aimed at people who question anything about these vaccines. Vaccine injuries are real. The performance of these vaccines are not meeting expectations. They should not be mandated, full stop. We need a system based on informed consent, not coercion.
[+] [-] b3nji|4 years ago|reply
Very odd.
[+] [-] SamoyedFurFluff|4 years ago|reply
If you have more robust information though I’d like to know of it.
Edit: please note this was published in dec 29 2021, with data up to that point, and therefore also incorporates omicron.
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/...
[+] [-] VoodooJuJu|4 years ago|reply
The unvaccinated are banned as means to put social and financial pressure on individuals to get the vaccine. It is an unfortunate misconception that any of the currently-approved intramuscular vaccines reduce transmission to a meaningful degree.
This social and financial pressure is placed on individuals because urban hospitals do not have the money or resources to deal with the rate at which they're admitting patients for severe Covid-19, and most of the patients they're admitting are unvaccinated.
[+] [-] Ardon|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hannob|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] max_|4 years ago|reply
Enforcing everyone to take the jabs increases those subsidies (this enforcement is persistent in all countries submissive to USA). That's what makes sense.
However, don't assert altruism because there isn't any. The 'save lives' campaign is just a coating to make things easy for the general public to swallow.
[+] [-] scott_w|4 years ago|reply
1. It’s harder for the virus to enter your body 2. If it gets in, you will get less sick (lower chance of symptoms) 3. Your body will fight it off faster 4. The virus has a harder time replicating in your body
Due to 2, 3 and 4, the ability to transmit virus to others goes down.
[+] [-] darknessmonk|4 years ago|reply
Antivaxxers can be execrated for all I care - dumbest way to enforce your freedom
[+] [-] andrewclunn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scrollaway|4 years ago|reply
Vaccines reduce spread. Even if it doesn’t stop spread completely it’s still a significant factor.
[+] [-] throw0101a|4 years ago|reply
Vaccines work the same way car seat belts and airbags do: they improve the/your odds. They make you much less likely to be infected, and because less likely to be infected, less likely to pass it on.
> If seatbelt-wearers outnumber non-wearers by four to one, but account for roughly the same number of deaths, it suggests seatbelt-wearers are about one-fourth as likely to die in an accident as non-wearers. That shocking statistic turns out to be not so shocking as all that.
* https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-is-the-case-...
* https://archive.fo/ayjkf (for paywall)
"Unvaccinated 60 times more likely to end up in ICU with COVID-19, Ontario data shows"
* https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitaliza...
[+] [-] casion|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mannanj|4 years ago|reply
It still surprises me how efficiently all our worlds leaders shifted blame from them for our shitty covid health response to the unvaccinated as though the vaccine was available from the beginning.
[+] [-] kif|4 years ago|reply
That said, if the government takes away benefits, then it should give back all the taxes withheld on one's salary before it does that.
On another note, personally I don't see any other solution to the pandemic, other than everybody/most people gaining some kind of natural immunity. Places requiring some form of green pass are none other than VIP superspreader events, where the Green Pass is the VIP ticket. People holding the Green Pass, will then go to meet others who may or may not be vaccinated, but who will eventually catch Covid.
[+] [-] bsaul|4 years ago|reply
It really really makes you wonder if western governments are trying to prove conspiracy theoricians right.
[+] [-] iqanq|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 14|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ddon|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yostrovs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brightball|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fasteddie31003|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TigeriusKirk|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pleasestepback|4 years ago|reply
- fellow canadian
[+] [-] theodorejb|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AbrahamParangi|4 years ago|reply
To be clear vaccination is good, people should be vaccinated, I have been vaccinated three times, etc, etc but does vaccination still offer a public health benefit vs just being a good idea for your own personal health?
[+] [-] theHIDninja|4 years ago|reply