I'm currently in a Master program (data science: maths, maths, maths and maths, oh and maths). I'm almost 50 years old. I was very happy to read that article because it doesn't mention a little detail : age. The sort of effort the author has done is really something he should be proud of, but at 29 your brain is still quite up to to the task. At almost 50 (+kids, +family to keep care of (even if family is incredibly supportive)) it's a totally different story. If you want to be able to learn the courses correctly (that is, you don't just try to barely pass the courses, you look for A grades), then you're in for a ride. Your brain has slowed down by a factor of at least 2. All in all, where a student spend 3 days on a task (praticals, studying), you spend about 8.
So it's very difficult to do that with a full time job. Such an effort makes me tired very quickly.
But, as the author said, doing something you choose, something that makes a better you, something where what you do is valued (instead of "soft skills") is extremely enjoyable, although exhausting and stressful... I'd do it again, but at maximum 35 years old :-)
> Your brain has slowed down by a factor of at least 2
I've made it into a mantra to never accept this kind of sentiment (even if it were to be scientifically proven some day). It's dangerous and only serves to undermine motivation. Sure there is an overrepresentation of old people who are tired., but that doesn't mean you have to be.
I started my master's at 50 and finished it 2 1/2 years later.
> Your brain has slowed down by a factor of at least 2.
My brain has never been better. I had decades of experience to lean on, and was an unofficial TA in most classes. It was fun and challenging, and only one course gave me any problems due to my lifelong math disability (I love it, it hates me).
I disagree about the 35 years old statement. I took a full time in-person Masters in Data Science while also working full time from 36 to 38. I finished it with a GPA of 3.9/4 and I feel it was the best time to do it.
It was my third time going to school. The first one was to take a undergrad+grad in CS when I was 18. I did not even know why I was there. The second one was I was 29 for grad school in quantitative finance, why? Because everybody in my professional environment was doing it. I definitely did not enjoy that either and did not learn much. My third time, well I clearly knew I wanted to learn becase I truly enjoyed the matter, no professional need but I simply liked it. And I knew about the math part.
Now I am almost 40 and I know almost for sure I am in the same shape or even better to go to school again and enjoy it. To me is just to do something because you like it, not because of social pressure, professional reasons or hype. Also, I think to have a good time while doing it you have to be aware of your personal situation. Mine was totally favorable.
Is it your actual brain or is it having a million things to worry about? Eg. if you could do a one-month retreat away from it all, would you get the same out of it as your younger self?
Of course it's also true one's younger self had other distractions, so it can be hard to compare.
I've found that cutting out sugar and eating more fat (especially EPA+DHA) has made my brain feel a lot sharper. Also strictness with bedtimes and getting natural light and exercise in the early morning get's ever more important with age. However, I agree ageing and family are definitely terrible for you :-)
This sounds like me a bit. I'm 40. I've worked as a programmer for 15 years, but I've always known my lack of maths is holding me back abd adds to my imposter syndrome. I've decided the new programming language I'm learning is, well maths. I'm just working through khan academy. I'll give myself this year's free(ish) time. I've got a family and a job, but I need to feel some sense of progression. I ll see what happens.
Just to encourage people who might otherwise be discouraged by your post - I completed my CS Masters at 44. While it was time consuming, I found it rather refreshing compared to normal work.
Work is full of ambiguities and complexities whereas academic work has straightforward success criteria and you're always starting from a blank slate. I enjoyed it, but I was also lucky to have the support of my family to spend my time that way.
I have to say that I think I disagree with the last sentence. My mom started (and finished) law school at age 39 and finished at 42, with a 3.8 GPA, while raising four kids (one of which (me) was an extremely obnoxious teenage boy). She wasn't working, but I think it's reasonable to say that raising four kids is probably harder than anything I do at work.
When did you start noticing this? I'm 39 and dont feel this at all. I have less motivation and energy for lots of things. But that stems from a jadedness and pickiness. It's different to what you describe. I feel my mental faculties are as strong as ever, and my gut feel is that they're not declining anytime soon.
There's nothing like having kids and other commitments to sharpen one's focus and make timekeeping a thing of perfection.
I note the older students (40+/50+-year-olds, with families, etc) getting their work in way ahead of schedule whilst actively participating in discourse, moreso (dare I say) than the significantly younger ones in our cohort.
My step-father is in his 50s and is currently doing a masters whilst working full time. His kids are admittedly old enough to mostly look after themselves at this point, but 1 of them still lives at home and he also most of the cooking and cleaning in around the house.
I’ve done this. It was really hard. Also the best thing I’ve ever done.
I had to be very ruthless with my main job. Working strictly 9-5. This really annoyed my boss and I almost got fired, but I just powered through and held my ground.
I had to work every evening for about 3 hours. I developed the habit of working even when very tired. Turns out you can do calculus even when exhausted.
I had to be very disciplined in saying ‘no’ to nearly all social events. (But still saw my girlfriend/now wife).
This whole experience was great fun and I would recommend it if you like learning new stuff. Especially if you want to change career.
For those debating starting a master’s program, the institution makes a big difference about 2 main factors. Required cost (which has been spoken about by multiple people so far), and required effort (which no one has touched on yet, and the reason I’m writing this).
While effort isn’t best depicted as a single value, some attributes of effort that I found making the act of getting a MS particularly easier and more enjoyable involves how professors bend to the life of students, rather than students to professors.
For homework this looks something like how common and easier it is to get an extension, extra help, adjustment of assignment/test, and so on. For schoolwork this looks something like whether class attendance is required, class sessions and professor office hours are time/location specific, and so on.
The original article talks about someone that made the decision to do school in person and then about how there were issues when it became remote. I opted to take an online program offered at a standard institution in hopes of increased flexibility and the same piece of paper at the end.
All my classes were pre-recorded lessons I could watch at my convenience. We would complete assignments and talk about them in a comment thread (usually required to do one OP and 2 comments per week), and also have larger projects etc. in groups. On about half of my classes I asked for and was always given extensions of anywhere between 30 days to complete and assignment to 3 extra months to finish 80% of the class I haven’t even touched yet due to increased demand at work.
As a side comment I’ll say you miss 100% of the extensions you don’t ask for, so if you ever feel stressed for time give it a shot and ask for an extension before the official due date or even on the day it’s due. Especially in higher education, I’ve never heard of a professor not working with a student. At the end of they day they have a financial incentive to keep you in the program.
To provide a counterpoint: I went the Georgia Tech online MS route and my ML finals coincided with my father’s funeral. I logged-in a few days before to take the final and it was buggy as hell, but my timer (24hrs) kept going. I emailed and slacked the TAs and professors with screenshots, but no one answered. The professor was known for being unsympathetic, so I logged in to see if it worked the morning of my fathers funeral, the last day to take the final. I banged out the final with the last 2 hours remaining on my timer.
That one event ruined my whole MS experience at GT
Absolutely. And don't be ashamed to speak with your disabled students accomodations office about getting the accommodations you need. If you test slowly, request extended time. If depression or something else keeps you from getting stuff done during the week, ask for flexible deadline extensions. People are hesitant to request accommodations they genuinely need and it boggles my mind.
It's especially important for math and science STEM fields -- I wouldn't be making any progress on my math degree if I didn't request accommodations and left it up to individual instructors whether to approve or deny my requests for extensions
Congrats on graduating -- I can't imagine doing OMSCS on top of working full time and raising a kid! I completed the program last month, and I wrote about the experience here[0] for anyone interested.
Congrats on the completion! I graduated from this program in May of 2021 after about a 15 year gap from my undergrad, coupled with two young kids, a job change, moving across the world, and military service in the middle of it!
Agree some of it was brutal, but I really enjoyed it all as a whole. The key to me getting through was being disciplined with when I would do the work / watch the lectures. I read the book Deep Work by Cal Newport just as I started the program in 2017 and I think it really helped to set me up for success here.
I'm glad it's done, and I really enjoyed some of the subjects - a couple I didn't get to cover in my undergrad - especially HPC, GA and AOS were my favorites.
My wife is doing a CS master's, after having done another master's during the lockdown. I'm looking over her shoulder, as I did with my brother a few years ago. It's been interesting to see how she thinks about algorithms and coding from a fresh start.
As a longtime coder I've found it interesting to dive back into some basic algorithms. Something about how it is taught to students makes it harder than just learning it as an already experienced dev. I find I can gloss over a lot of the stuff, but there are still details that I don't understand.
One thing that helps a lot is modern learning resources, basically websites and videos about the same topics, done by someone else. It's quite different from when I was in uni and you were stuck with the people you had around you and the same old books. Now if I don't quite understand insertion sort, there's a variety of explanations.
For those interested there's a number of UK universities that offer a remote master's. Takes a year full time and two part time, and you can often pay by the module. You might also be able to use the virus situation to get a "non-remote" master's remotely, which my wife managed to do last year.
I did my bachelors and masters degree in cooperation with different companys in germany. Over here it is quite normal that companys have open positions for cooperative degrees.
For most it comes down to some evening courses or courses crapted together on a few days so that the other days are available for part time working.
At my university we had it a little different. For Bachelors it was:
- 1. Semester: Studying (Full time)
- 2. Semester: Studying (Full time)
- 3. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits
- 4. Semester: Studying (Full time)
- 5. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits
- 6. Semester: Studying (Full time)
- 7. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits (3 mo) + 3 months bachelors degree (most of the time based on the stuff you worked on before)
The Semester breaks we needed to work full time but also needed to take our 30 days of vacation in that time.
So I think we got the best of both worlds. Hands on experience on the work and full time studying on campus.
In the companys I joined since then I'm heavily opting to get some cooperative students. Usually by the time of the 4th semester they are up to speed and help a lot in the 8 months they are there.
I did this at Boston University (night school at MET) over 4 years. 10 total classes, they do 3 semesters a year, and I took 2 semesters off. Overall I liked it, solid program, assisted me later when the credential helped validate me to hiring managers and then later to investors. It also forced me to study deeper and become much more serious about the foundational knowledge.
The most hilarious part to me was that I did my undergrad at BU and it was ~$200k total over 4 years for a CS degree pre-2010 (BU has since gone parabolic in cost and is now over $75k per year!). My entire masters at night was ~$30k from 2012-2016, and I get the same institutional signal on my resume.
Why? Grad students taking night classes have to typically pay out of pocket, and want value for their money. Undergraduates, especially the enormous quantity of non-STEM majors, are not thinking rationally and take out huge debt for an experience.[0][1] This colors my opinion on why the government should not guarantee unlimited undergraduate debt - the cost problem would be solved overnight if students had to actually pay their way.
[1] BU is a school full of rich foreigners and trust funders. When I graduated (granted it was shortly after the iPhone was invented) the total number of CS students graduating out of a total class of almost 4000 students was 30! 30 whole CS majors out of 4000! The communications school was something like 1000 students. CS classes were in the basement of the math building, and the ceiling was falling down, pipes were banging, and I'm positive asbestos was rampant. A rich donor has now funded a new enormous CS building, but the capital cost will continue to add onto BU's enormous tuition as it expands ever further into Kenmore and Brookline https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/update-on-bus-center-for-co...
I was in the same research lab as the author, but from a different school (BU). When I found out that most of my peers were also doing their master's part time while working, I wished I could do that. But as an international student, there are a lot of restrictions. I had to do it full time (3-4 classes per semester), and I could only work 20 hours part time on campus, usually as a TA and/or research assistant. I did 3 jobs to max that out since most jobs only required you to work 6-8 hours a week. I could only do one internship for my entire degree. My total cost for 2 years was $117,889. BU did not have scholarships or aid for international students, because saying you need aid is admitting that you lied on the visa application. Then I had to pay $7800 to work on my thesis over the summer, which I chose not to finish because I wanted to start working earlier. To make up for lack of work experience, I pretty much did open source contribs 40 hours a week while working on my thesis and TAing. There was a period of 10 weeks where I was putting in 80-100 hours between school and unpaid work.
It was still worth it in the end. Similar experience coming from no CS undergrad. There were about 3 good classes that were very valuable, like Algorithms, Cloud Computing, and Embedded Systems. The rest was not that great, especially with remote. When I think about ROI compared to a bootcamp, it's a tough one. Really successful bootcamp grads are already self-selecting going into the bootcamp, same with the really smart students in my master's program. But going to a master's program seems to have a better ROI just based on quality of instruction/institution alone.
6 months after graduation and my pay bump has more than covered it. I was feeding the master's program cash cow, so I think of it as I'm helping fund my US and green card classmates' master's. Most of my peers had 50% or full ride scholarships.
Did that a few years ago, started when I was 47, completed with 50.
Was easier for me.
Distance Learning University in Germany.
And I had the opportunity to do it at work.
One could call it a side project.
Since about two years I try my hand at a bachelor in mathematics at another Distance Learning University in Germany.
Guess I will pull that stunt around 2025.
Did you already have an undergrad in CS? I recently completed a MS in cognitive science in Sweden. I have been drawn to AI research, but it seems that most work in AI these days is being done strictly in Comp Sci rather than Cog Sci, so a Ph.D. in AI is what I really want to do but appears to be out of reach for me because of what seems to be a bias against cog sci despite my interests, skills at research and writing, and my technical ability to do the work. I think there is a perception that cog sci is only about human intelligence, even though AI/comp sci was one of the primary fields of research of the co-founders of cog sci.
Anyway, I was thinking maybe I should do a comp sci masters so that I can move on to comp sci PhD and keep going with my research interests.
Did you do your degree in English or German? I live in Germany, but my German is not quite good enough for advanced academic instruction.
Well, congrats. I finished my MS at 44, though I did it full-time in person, which itself was a weird and fun experience at that age.
Assuming that you could have landed the job at Google without studying part-time (could you?), I’m a bit baffled by your experience. Unless your degree really propels you in your career (read: your employer values academic degrees over experience), couldn’t you have learned those skills without putting up with the cost and timely investment of formally enrolling for a master’s degree? I’d even go as far as to say: in your late 20s/early 30s, it pays off more to put in the hours at work and to start a family in what’s left of your days. Companies like Google ought to offer great ways to learn “on the job”.
Some context: during my part-time masters degree, which took 3 years to complete, I wrote the following from scratch: a MIPS and ARMv4 CPU in FPGA, an emulator for ARMv4, an assembler for it, a compiler for C89, an OS kernel with a shell, a 3d game, and several websites, webapps and mobile apps.
A job at Google won't bring you even close to be able to learn all of that on the job. The real world version of most of such projects are orders of magnitude more complicated, take years to develop and have tens to hundreds of people working on them.
Since you lack both the theoretical and practical knowledge of writing a kernel, for example, you will not be designing the solution for it at Google. At best you will learn to implement a piece of it, and it will take years (think of working on Fuchsia with no prior kernel experience).
A (master's) degree isn't an automatic ticket to becoming the lead developer on Fuchsia, but it gives you the chance to learn the theoretical portion of the domain and apply it in a controlled environment, at an accelerated pace, under the guidance of a person who specializes in teaching (not jaded Joe who's waiting for his RSUs to vest), so you have a large foundation on which to build the real world practical skills on the job.
Even if you switch teams every half, you will still not be able to cover the breadth of the material in a master's program on the job, not to mention having to perform to get a good enough rating to stay employed, while having essentially no prior knowledge of the topic.
You could supplement by taking some courses or reading books after work, but this would essentially be a diy masters without access to experienced professors, that would take much longer and be several times more stressful and inefficient.
On-the-job training would typically improve skills needed in your day-to-day work. A master's programme should improve academic skills (things like abstraction, reflection, generalisation, communication). The first makes you better at your current job, the latter makes you more flexible and versatile for any job.
Both are valuable, but for different reasons. Whether pursuing a master's degree is worth it depends on your individual circumstances.
That's a good question, and there are a few things behind the "why" that I didn't go into in the write up, including:
- Enjoying taking classes
- Interest in learning about breadth of material that I wasn't seeing as a FE eng (even at Google)
- Some minor concern about having CS credentials (less these days, but very much a concern earlier in my career)
- Interest in learning about academia and doing research
For me, there were enough intangibles that interested me, and importantly I didn't do it just for the career benefits, though I think it helped out (although with survivorship and confirmation bias, it's hard to say).
> in your late 20s/early 30s, it pays off more to put in the hours at work and to start a family in what’s left of your days
Another reason why I'm not continuing with the part-time studies! I've joked with my wife that in my free time, we _could_ have kids, or I could do a part-time PhD for 5 years...
That's my question too. I expect that the larger companies can afford to require qualifications for entry or promotion but for most of us, there is an insane demand for developers and I can choose to learn more about things that I find difficult.
I thought about a master (my UG degree was electrical engineering) but I was wondering if it was just an ego thing that would take loads of time, cost loads of money and not really make any difference.
I couldn't do it. From 2008 to 2011, I was 3 credits and half a thesis paper short, had to quit for my health. I had lost too much weight, down to 150 lbs at 6'3", I was falling asleep at work and not meeting expectations. It was horrendous. Props to anyone who can make it work. And to those who were bailed out by the Bank of Mom and Dad, a big fuck you.
I completed an MS in software engineering while I was working. I ultimately consider it to have been a waste of time and money. I think it gave my resume a slight boost early in my career but I don't think it matters much now.
Doing a part time masters was a huge mistake I made in my early 20s. Sure, I learned a lot but I lost a lot of time and picked up a few grey hairs. It really took a toll on my family and social life. It has not benefited my career at all, which is why I tell people to avoid this route unless they have a non-comp Sci bachelors and even then to consider doing a second bachelors instead.
Despite interviewing a great deal since then and getting a few different positions no one in industry has ever really cared about it, except to call my background 'academic' in a vaugely negative manner at some smaller shops. I make very comparable salary to my peers who just have their bachelors. I usually recommend people not to go this route unless they just want to learn for the sake of learning... which I did, but I thought it would help career wise too and it really hasnt. Honestly I think there are a number of people in startups who will actively hold an MS against you, seeing it as a sign of failure. I have outright been told when interviewing that it is being held against me, because successful people don't need one.
100% agree on "where did my in-person interactions go" but for a different reason. Almost all of my peer group (working professionals) did the program remotely. Instead, the on-campus student body was mostly teenage undergraduates and international students with no work experience.
Also agree on "where did my money go". I've always assumed a huge amount of it went to administration and groundskeeping.
I'm middle age and have begun to feel as if I'm being surpassed by younger engineers who've had more relevant CS and engineering curriculums in the 15 years since I got my bachelors.
I enrolled in a masters of CS (online) at a prestigious university and was able to complete the first 3 credit course. I enjoyed it and did well, but ended up dropping the next course. My thoughts were:
* At the pace I was going, it'd take at least 5 years to finish (3 credits / semester). While working full time, it meant that at least half my weekend was spent on course work, and often times the other weekend day and a few evenings within the work-week were also. Looking at the next 5 years of my life being consumed so much seemed daunting.
* Tuition cost is insane these days, even without all the on-campus fees, expensive text books, etc. The masters would have ended up costing about $60K by the time I finished.
* From a career perspective, I'm not sure how much the it is worth. The software industry just does not value higher academic / professional degrees as much as others, where its often times absolutely required (e.g. law, medicine, academia itself, etc).
* From a financial perspective, it seems that grinding Leetcode and "studying" interviewing would be a far better use of time. A masters might end up providing a $10K / year salary bump for the remaining 15-20 years of my career. A FAANG position might provide $100K+ / year increase... or more now that FAANG salaries are hitting $500K+, while typical F500 engineering are still stuck in the $150K range - a true bimodal situation where Leetcode and interviewing skills have a 100X ROI vs a masters.
Though, I wonder if in 10 years the masters would have brought me more personal satisfaction (accomplishment, prestige, etc) than the extra money (assuming I even follow the Leetcode/FAANG path to big bucks).
I've almost done this too but I saw that people having full time in masters or researcher in a lab more successful than people doing part-time masters as me. They have more time to do research. They produce more because it's their main job, they can go deeper. They collaborate more with researchers that also broader their research and network in the area. It can be the hardest thing to write a paper from research idea to result alone or with an advisor which is the advisor only will help you with the theory writing.
The one attractive reason for pursuing a MS in compsci would be access to high-end equipment and the opportunity to work for people who were both (1) skilled in the use and theory of such equipment and (2) actually interested in serving as mentors for people just learning the ropes. Definitely a 'do your diligent research on the program you're interested in' situation, though, to see if that's the case.
Having gone through one academic program (molecular bio/biochemistry at both BS and MS level), that was the real value, i.e. I was lucky enough to get and keep a undergrad job in a cutting-edge research laboratory and that really taught me more of real value than all my classes combined, and opened doors to future graduate research as well.
Now I'm learning programming and compsci, having gotten a bit burnt out on underpaid lab tech work, and having gone through an intense year of school up through the basic data structures, algorithms, architecture and assembly, with networking and web programming on the side... kind of doubt that much more schooling of this type (online course work, etc.) will be all that beneficial. The cost factor alone is very off-putting. A two-year hands on program in cutting-edge robotics hardware and software development, though, that would be pretty worthwhile I think.
P.S. Age isn't that relevant, I don't really feel any dumber now trying to learn new material and develop skills than I did in my early 20s. It's always an uphill struggle. Organization is much better now so that helps, and my mental flops don't seem noticeably different as far as I can tell.
[+] [-] wiz21c|4 years ago|reply
But, as the author said, doing something you choose, something that makes a better you, something where what you do is valued (instead of "soft skills") is extremely enjoyable, although exhausting and stressful... I'd do it again, but at maximum 35 years old :-)
[+] [-] officehero|4 years ago|reply
I've made it into a mantra to never accept this kind of sentiment (even if it were to be scientifically proven some day). It's dangerous and only serves to undermine motivation. Sure there is an overrepresentation of old people who are tired., but that doesn't mean you have to be.
[+] [-] g051051|4 years ago|reply
I started my master's at 50 and finished it 2 1/2 years later.
> Your brain has slowed down by a factor of at least 2.
My brain has never been better. I had decades of experience to lean on, and was an unofficial TA in most classes. It was fun and challenging, and only one course gave me any problems due to my lifelong math disability (I love it, it hates me).
[+] [-] melenaboija|4 years ago|reply
It was my third time going to school. The first one was to take a undergrad+grad in CS when I was 18. I did not even know why I was there. The second one was I was 29 for grad school in quantitative finance, why? Because everybody in my professional environment was doing it. I definitely did not enjoy that either and did not learn much. My third time, well I clearly knew I wanted to learn becase I truly enjoyed the matter, no professional need but I simply liked it. And I knew about the math part.
Now I am almost 40 and I know almost for sure I am in the same shape or even better to go to school again and enjoy it. To me is just to do something because you like it, not because of social pressure, professional reasons or hype. Also, I think to have a good time while doing it you have to be aware of your personal situation. Mine was totally favorable.
[+] [-] lordnacho|4 years ago|reply
Of course it's also true one's younger self had other distractions, so it can be hard to compare.
[+] [-] andy_ppp|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bennysomething|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whyage|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ahlschwede|4 years ago|reply
Work is full of ambiguities and complexities whereas academic work has straightforward success criteria and you're always starting from a blank slate. I enjoyed it, but I was also lucky to have the support of my family to spend my time that way.
[+] [-] ubercore|4 years ago|reply
How do you even quantify that?
[+] [-] tombert|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ybalkind|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] juanuys|4 years ago|reply
I note the older students (40+/50+-year-olds, with families, etc) getting their work in way ahead of schedule whilst actively participating in discourse, moreso (dare I say) than the significantly younger ones in our cohort.
[+] [-] nicoburns|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] martingoodson|4 years ago|reply
I had to be very ruthless with my main job. Working strictly 9-5. This really annoyed my boss and I almost got fired, but I just powered through and held my ground.
I had to work every evening for about 3 hours. I developed the habit of working even when very tired. Turns out you can do calculus even when exhausted.
I had to be very disciplined in saying ‘no’ to nearly all social events. (But still saw my girlfriend/now wife).
This whole experience was great fun and I would recommend it if you like learning new stuff. Especially if you want to change career.
[+] [-] bool3max|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2457013579|4 years ago|reply
While effort isn’t best depicted as a single value, some attributes of effort that I found making the act of getting a MS particularly easier and more enjoyable involves how professors bend to the life of students, rather than students to professors.
For homework this looks something like how common and easier it is to get an extension, extra help, adjustment of assignment/test, and so on. For schoolwork this looks something like whether class attendance is required, class sessions and professor office hours are time/location specific, and so on.
The original article talks about someone that made the decision to do school in person and then about how there were issues when it became remote. I opted to take an online program offered at a standard institution in hopes of increased flexibility and the same piece of paper at the end.
All my classes were pre-recorded lessons I could watch at my convenience. We would complete assignments and talk about them in a comment thread (usually required to do one OP and 2 comments per week), and also have larger projects etc. in groups. On about half of my classes I asked for and was always given extensions of anywhere between 30 days to complete and assignment to 3 extra months to finish 80% of the class I haven’t even touched yet due to increased demand at work.
As a side comment I’ll say you miss 100% of the extensions you don’t ask for, so if you ever feel stressed for time give it a shot and ask for an extension before the official due date or even on the day it’s due. Especially in higher education, I’ve never heard of a professor not working with a student. At the end of they day they have a financial incentive to keep you in the program.
[+] [-] treyfitty|4 years ago|reply
That one event ruined my whole MS experience at GT
[+] [-] vector_spaces|4 years ago|reply
It's especially important for math and science STEM fields -- I wouldn't be making any progress on my math degree if I didn't request accommodations and left it up to individual instructors whether to approve or deny my requests for extensions
[+] [-] sdave|4 years ago|reply
Was brutal, but worth it! Thanks to Georgia Tech. for creating this program!!
Program link: https://omscs.gatech.edu
[+] [-] mbil|4 years ago|reply
[0]: https://tinyurl.com/7b537ccn
[+] [-] Mike_Jordan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hobos_delight|4 years ago|reply
Agree some of it was brutal, but I really enjoyed it all as a whole. The key to me getting through was being disciplined with when I would do the work / watch the lectures. I read the book Deep Work by Cal Newport just as I started the program in 2017 and I think it really helped to set me up for success here.
I'm glad it's done, and I really enjoyed some of the subjects - a couple I didn't get to cover in my undergrad - especially HPC, GA and AOS were my favorites.
[+] [-] tumblewit|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lordnacho|4 years ago|reply
As a longtime coder I've found it interesting to dive back into some basic algorithms. Something about how it is taught to students makes it harder than just learning it as an already experienced dev. I find I can gloss over a lot of the stuff, but there are still details that I don't understand.
One thing that helps a lot is modern learning resources, basically websites and videos about the same topics, done by someone else. It's quite different from when I was in uni and you were stuck with the people you had around you and the same old books. Now if I don't quite understand insertion sort, there's a variety of explanations.
For those interested there's a number of UK universities that offer a remote master's. Takes a year full time and two part time, and you can often pay by the module. You might also be able to use the virus situation to get a "non-remote" master's remotely, which my wife managed to do last year.
[+] [-] Mike_Jordan|4 years ago|reply
Would you say it is worth pursuing Masters from the UK university? If you dont mind which university would you consider worth it?
[+] [-] gerl1ng|4 years ago|reply
For most it comes down to some evening courses or courses crapted together on a few days so that the other days are available for part time working.
At my university we had it a little different. For Bachelors it was:
- 1. Semester: Studying (Full time)
- 2. Semester: Studying (Full time)
- 3. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits
- 4. Semester: Studying (Full time)
- 5. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits
- 6. Semester: Studying (Full time)
- 7. Semester: Working with writing a paper on some work project specific stuff to gather some more Credits (3 mo) + 3 months bachelors degree (most of the time based on the stuff you worked on before)
The Semester breaks we needed to work full time but also needed to take our 30 days of vacation in that time.
So I think we got the best of both worlds. Hands on experience on the work and full time studying on campus.
In the companys I joined since then I'm heavily opting to get some cooperative students. Usually by the time of the 4th semester they are up to speed and help a lot in the 8 months they are there.
[+] [-] seibelj|4 years ago|reply
The most hilarious part to me was that I did my undergrad at BU and it was ~$200k total over 4 years for a CS degree pre-2010 (BU has since gone parabolic in cost and is now over $75k per year!). My entire masters at night was ~$30k from 2012-2016, and I get the same institutional signal on my resume.
Why? Grad students taking night classes have to typically pay out of pocket, and want value for their money. Undergraduates, especially the enormous quantity of non-STEM majors, are not thinking rationally and take out huge debt for an experience.[0][1] This colors my opinion on why the government should not guarantee unlimited undergraduate debt - the cost problem would be solved overnight if students had to actually pay their way.
[0] BU has an indoor lazy river that they try very hard to de-emphasize and keep images off the internet of. However it does exist as a "recreation pool" https://legitcampus.wordpress.com/2013/06/01/hey-boston-univ...
[1] BU is a school full of rich foreigners and trust funders. When I graduated (granted it was shortly after the iPhone was invented) the total number of CS students graduating out of a total class of almost 4000 students was 30! 30 whole CS majors out of 4000! The communications school was something like 1000 students. CS classes were in the basement of the math building, and the ceiling was falling down, pipes were banging, and I'm positive asbestos was rampant. A rich donor has now funded a new enormous CS building, but the capital cost will continue to add onto BU's enormous tuition as it expands ever further into Kenmore and Brookline https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/update-on-bus-center-for-co...
[+] [-] jackdawed|4 years ago|reply
It was still worth it in the end. Similar experience coming from no CS undergrad. There were about 3 good classes that were very valuable, like Algorithms, Cloud Computing, and Embedded Systems. The rest was not that great, especially with remote. When I think about ROI compared to a bootcamp, it's a tough one. Really successful bootcamp grads are already self-selecting going into the bootcamp, same with the really smart students in my master's program. But going to a master's program seems to have a better ROI just based on quality of instruction/institution alone.
6 months after graduation and my pay bump has more than covered it. I was feeding the master's program cash cow, so I think of it as I'm helping fund my US and green card classmates' master's. Most of my peers had 50% or full ride scholarships.
[+] [-] Borrible|4 years ago|reply
Did that a few years ago, started when I was 47, completed with 50. Was easier for me. Distance Learning University in Germany. And I had the opportunity to do it at work. One could call it a side project.
Since about two years I try my hand at a bachelor in mathematics at another Distance Learning University in Germany. Guess I will pull that stunt around 2025.
[+] [-] LAC-Tech|4 years ago|reply
For about two years. 'Since' is not the same as 'seit' here.
(When I learned German native speakers would constantly correct me for using 'für' when I should have used 'seit' so I am repaying the favour)
[+] [-] checkyoursudo|4 years ago|reply
Anyway, I was thinking maybe I should do a comp sci masters so that I can move on to comp sci PhD and keep going with my research interests.
Did you do your degree in English or German? I live in Germany, but my German is not quite good enough for advanced academic instruction.
Well, congrats. I finished my MS at 44, though I did it full-time in person, which itself was a weird and fun experience at that age.
[+] [-] zd123|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hankman86|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 10x-dev|4 years ago|reply
A job at Google won't bring you even close to be able to learn all of that on the job. The real world version of most of such projects are orders of magnitude more complicated, take years to develop and have tens to hundreds of people working on them.
Since you lack both the theoretical and practical knowledge of writing a kernel, for example, you will not be designing the solution for it at Google. At best you will learn to implement a piece of it, and it will take years (think of working on Fuchsia with no prior kernel experience).
A (master's) degree isn't an automatic ticket to becoming the lead developer on Fuchsia, but it gives you the chance to learn the theoretical portion of the domain and apply it in a controlled environment, at an accelerated pace, under the guidance of a person who specializes in teaching (not jaded Joe who's waiting for his RSUs to vest), so you have a large foundation on which to build the real world practical skills on the job.
Even if you switch teams every half, you will still not be able to cover the breadth of the material in a master's program on the job, not to mention having to perform to get a good enough rating to stay employed, while having essentially no prior knowledge of the topic.
You could supplement by taking some courses or reading books after work, but this would essentially be a diy masters without access to experienced professors, that would take much longer and be several times more stressful and inefficient.
[+] [-] Beldin|4 years ago|reply
Both are valuable, but for different reasons. Whether pursuing a master's degree is worth it depends on your individual circumstances.
[+] [-] otras|4 years ago|reply
> in your late 20s/early 30s, it pays off more to put in the hours at work and to start a family in what’s left of your days
Another reason why I'm not continuing with the part-time studies! I've joked with my wife that in my free time, we _could_ have kids, or I could do a part-time PhD for 5 years...
[+] [-] lbriner|4 years ago|reply
I thought about a master (my UG degree was electrical engineering) but I was wondering if it was just an ego thing that would take loads of time, cost loads of money and not really make any difference.
[+] [-] dehrmann|4 years ago|reply
Important note: the author seems to not have a CS background. A solid undergrad CS experience covers a lot of the pluses mentioned.
[+] [-] joeframbach|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leros|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] commandlinefan|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawaygal7|4 years ago|reply
Despite interviewing a great deal since then and getting a few different positions no one in industry has ever really cared about it, except to call my background 'academic' in a vaugely negative manner at some smaller shops. I make very comparable salary to my peers who just have their bachelors. I usually recommend people not to go this route unless they just want to learn for the sake of learning... which I did, but I thought it would help career wise too and it really hasnt. Honestly I think there are a number of people in startups who will actively hold an MS against you, seeing it as a sign of failure. I have outright been told when interviewing that it is being held against me, because successful people don't need one.
[+] [-] hiddenwaffle|4 years ago|reply
Also agree on "where did my money go". I've always assumed a huge amount of it went to administration and groundskeeping.
[+] [-] hiram112|4 years ago|reply
I enrolled in a masters of CS (online) at a prestigious university and was able to complete the first 3 credit course. I enjoyed it and did well, but ended up dropping the next course. My thoughts were:
* At the pace I was going, it'd take at least 5 years to finish (3 credits / semester). While working full time, it meant that at least half my weekend was spent on course work, and often times the other weekend day and a few evenings within the work-week were also. Looking at the next 5 years of my life being consumed so much seemed daunting.
* Tuition cost is insane these days, even without all the on-campus fees, expensive text books, etc. The masters would have ended up costing about $60K by the time I finished.
* From a career perspective, I'm not sure how much the it is worth. The software industry just does not value higher academic / professional degrees as much as others, where its often times absolutely required (e.g. law, medicine, academia itself, etc).
* From a financial perspective, it seems that grinding Leetcode and "studying" interviewing would be a far better use of time. A masters might end up providing a $10K / year salary bump for the remaining 15-20 years of my career. A FAANG position might provide $100K+ / year increase... or more now that FAANG salaries are hitting $500K+, while typical F500 engineering are still stuck in the $150K range - a true bimodal situation where Leetcode and interviewing skills have a 100X ROI vs a masters.
Though, I wonder if in 10 years the masters would have brought me more personal satisfaction (accomplishment, prestige, etc) than the extra money (assuming I even follow the Leetcode/FAANG path to big bucks).
[+] [-] mcemilg|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] photochemsyn|4 years ago|reply
Having gone through one academic program (molecular bio/biochemistry at both BS and MS level), that was the real value, i.e. I was lucky enough to get and keep a undergrad job in a cutting-edge research laboratory and that really taught me more of real value than all my classes combined, and opened doors to future graduate research as well.
Now I'm learning programming and compsci, having gotten a bit burnt out on underpaid lab tech work, and having gone through an intense year of school up through the basic data structures, algorithms, architecture and assembly, with networking and web programming on the side... kind of doubt that much more schooling of this type (online course work, etc.) will be all that beneficial. The cost factor alone is very off-putting. A two-year hands on program in cutting-edge robotics hardware and software development, though, that would be pretty worthwhile I think.
P.S. Age isn't that relevant, I don't really feel any dumber now trying to learn new material and develop skills than I did in my early 20s. It's always an uphill struggle. Organization is much better now so that helps, and my mental flops don't seem noticeably different as far as I can tell.
[+] [-] pineapple-pizza|4 years ago|reply