I think the most important advancements in history were done with a Long Grind before a huge success. Einstein worked away in mediocrity, living what to most people must have looked like a sub-par life on the surface. He toiled away on his own for years, then came his stratospherical rise to the upper echelons of human thought.
Kant is another example; he spent 10 years alone in thought, publishing nothing in that time, before coming out with what turned out the be (arguably) the most influential philosophical work ever.
It seems that the hardest part is not losing faith as you're grinding away. However corny/lame it sounds, people who believe in you are the most important thing during the grind. How many people did you guys (yipit) have that had your back as you were working away for 2+ years?
I'm not in the Valley, but I've heard that this might be the best part about the it; you don't get judged for working on some random project full time(like this article says happened in New York).
I would have enjoyed this post a lot more if at the end they had not simply created yet another bloody coupon site.
I can understand going through two and half years of no money, pain and self-doubt if you were working on something world-changing. But just another bloody coupon site...
I don't want to be down on these guys. They sound like really nice guys; intelligent, persistent and bright. But, please, no, not another bloody coupon site
Somewhere out there, there is a scuba diving school / cafe / massage therapy practice which does not have any way to turn money into customers into money into customers. If they had such a thing, it would improve the lives of their customers, allow the business to make payroll, and compensate the owners for the enormous risk, investment, and effort they put into the business. Delivering that -- scalable customer acquisition -- is a sexy, sexy problem. The coupon sites are an implementation detail.
I've got one customer who feeds ten families (and probably expanding soon) in the face of the worst economy his business has ever seen because Groupon Works For Us.
I think it's important to make a distinction between businesses that are aesthetically pleasing and appealing to you, and business-in-general that's successful. Lessons from business-in-general can be very useful even if you wouldn't patronize them yourself and it's always nice when people open up about their experience.
Unless a business is actively knowingly hurting people, I think it's good to celebrate business-in-general even if the aesthetics/offers don't appeal to you.
There not just another run of the mill coupon site. Check out what there actually doing. Aggregating all of that info, much like Hipmunk has done for airlines, and providing only stuff that is interesting/useful for you.
It seems like a lot of normal people (i.e. non-hacker types) thought they added some value to the world.
Tetra Pak (who make milk cartons) are worth billions of dollars. The people who make the toilet paper you wipe your ass with will make more money than most of us can ever aspire to! Boring pays the bills.
I thought the same. But who am I to judge them for their choices. If they can live with it (maybe even they have really fun working on their coupon aggregator) then why not.
Now I'm not sure about the sustainability of that business model. Investors seem to pump money into it because of Groupon's "success" but I'm skeptical if the group coupon hype will persist for more than the next 2 years.
I'd squeeze all the money I can out of the groupon thing and prepare to start another startup in some time.
I understand what you mean (I myself almost started "another bloody coupon site" but changed course for the same reason you didn't like the end of the post). But obviously what they were doing before wasn't working and they ended up being successful by giving people what they wanted in a way that provided some sort of value. There are so many similar sites out there that I think it's impressive they were successful doing something that is, like we all know, so overdone.
So I guess my point is that sure, we don't need another damn coupon site (we even have plenty of aggregators too) but that's beside the point and I appreciate the words of advice. That was motivating to me.
As a 31 year old with a full-time job to pay the bills and a family to raise, I feel like there is not enough time to act on my ideas so they just continue to collect dust. Stories like this give me motivation but I still haven't found the answer to the question: "how can I focus on my ideas full-time and still pay the bills and support my growing family?". In other words, I don't have the savings for two and half years of hustling on no salary and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I will continue searching for the answer. Thanks for the story!
As someone who is somewhat in your position and I'm now in my third start-up (last two failed miserably but taught me SO much)I think you are asking the wrong question: "how can I focus on my ideas full-time and still pay the bills and support my growing family?"
I think you should focus on picking one of the hundreds of ideas you might have and set a reasonable time-frame and strip your apps functionality to the core.
Once you arrive at that point, just set aside one hour, even half an hour a day to work on your new start-up. Before you know it you have a product and are up and running and at least have the opportunity to see what happens. This gives you the experience and the opportunity to fail many times (if you decide to do it more than once) so you get the hang of it and still be able to support your family.
Please accept this in a sincere and non-adversarial tone.
You don't need 2.5 years of a salary and full-time. Thinking that you need that is just an excuse. What you need is to set your priorities and be able to find a way to work an hour or two a day. Surely you can do that? If not, surely you can find a few hours on the weekend? Yes, you'll probably have to sacrifice some things. What you'll have to sacrifice depends on your own situation.
I'm not sure where I read this quote but it sticks with me... "those who want to accomplish something will find a way, those who don't really want to will find an excuse"
You take a look at your life, identify that hour here and half-hour there that aren't getting you closer to where you want to be, and use them for nights-and-weekends hacking. Then you start a long slog of little-by-little improvement. Eventually, the business eclipses the day job, and you quit. If you feel like it, you can then start another slog.
I have a very modestly successful small business, built over the last five years and change. At all points over that interval, I had sufficient income to maintain a wife and children to a standard of living commonly accepted among middle class folks where I live.
There are other options, such as "Transition from full-time salaried employment to contracting/consulting/etc, make a lot more money than you do right now, buy time with money."
I have some good news and I have some bad news for you. The good news is it is possible to be some type of success while raising your family. Lots of people do it all the time. The bad news? The success will be limited compared to that person who just focuses on their work. True, that person has other problems to face which may destroy it and they are a rare breed of people but they must make a sacrifice in order to obtain it.
Why is this? Simple math. 24 Hours In A Day x 365.25 Days in a Year x 75 or so years in life = 657,450 hours in life. That's it. You maybe lucky and get more but chances are you'll get less than 657,450 hours.
Every time you use an hour for one task, you give up an hour for another task. One hour spent on your family means one hour lost working on your project. Then again, if your lucky, you may find inspiration in that one hour with your family that may help your idea but that diminishes if your work dwindles into areas which have very little to do with human interaction (e.g. Highly Abstract Math or Physics or Chemistry).
I'm in a similar position to you, although I'm almost nine years down the line. I've spent most of my thirties raising a family and climbing the corporate tech ladder, doing jobs which didn't really interest me but paid reasonably well. I too have seen opportunities and ideas go to waste because I didn't think there was time to concentrate on them as well as home life etc. What didn't click was that I was spending so many hours at work that home life was suffering anyway. I'm now doing what I can on my own ventures and cutting back on extra obligations for my (full time) job. Previously I'd be the first guy to roll up my sleeves and pull a 24 hour session at work to fix an issue. Not now (although needs must on occasion).
Having an understanding partner can help. My wife is supportive of my efforts as we both realise that despite being financially comfortable at the moment, we will never be rich and I will never be completely satisfied carrying on in my current or similar roles. And who knows what will happen in the next 30 years? I may spend most of those out of work, unable to get a job due to my age. A fear of regretting never even having tried is a big motivator for me.
As others have said here, there is time to be found. Cut down on the TV. Don't work such long hours for other people. Get up an hour earlier than everyone else, especially at weekends. What I've found is that simply by doing 'stuff', I've become more efficient and more productive with the time I have. Ideas seem to be flowing more easily now as well. You can do it. Good luck.
Sometimes you have to burn all the ships (it is said that Cortés burned all his fleet before launching an attack on the Aztec to keep his men from retreating).
I burned all my ships 5 years ago when I decided to quit a fairly successful career as a network engineer for "bigco". I also moved to another city, (literally) burned my rolodex and told everyone I was starting a venture.
I'm still not an "overnight success" but I can tell you one thing: when you can't go back, you have to worry only about the best way of moving forward. In 6 months I was already ramen profitable.
I hear ya! I have lots of ideas that are collecting dust. I found that having a partner helps. Not only to bounce around ideas and build the product with but also for mutual dependence. Just like the author stated he didn't want to give up because of his loyalty to his co-founder, I find the same loyalty to my co-founder is what keeps me working nights and weekends... even when I'm exhausted from working all day and putting my 4 kids to sleep in the evenings. It's definitely difficult but rewarding.
Mine is to do freelance job in between to support myself in building my own ideas. If you are good and find the appropriate clients, freelancing can give you a good amount of money to have some runway before getting anther contract.
"... In all honesty, I probably would have given up earlier. The only reason why I didn’t was out of loyalty to my co-founder, Jim, who had also quit his finance job. He had passed up many amazing job opportunities to work alongside me and I wasn’t going to quit on him. ..."
Interesting observation. The advantage of having multiple founders is shown here where "accountability to comrades", "bonding", and "mutual surveillance" [0] means the founders stuck at the task long after a solo founder might quit in despair.
This is a pretty good case against the notion that "ideas don't matter". They absolutely matter; how else can 3 days so drastically change the prospects of a company?
>I’m convinced that if we had the idea for a daily deal aggregator back in 2007 or 2008 or even 2009, we wouldn’t have gotten traction because we would have messed it up.
>But, after two and half years of failing and learning, we knew exactly what to do
The idea didn't matter as much as the many other components.
No one says ideas don't matter. Without a good idea even the best execution will yield nothing. Ideas alone are just not that much worth. (Other way round this is true too.)
I'm sure that if 100 teams would have tried to execute this specific idea many of them would have failed.
Don't be just the idea guy and don't be just the execution guy. Try to be both :)
They don't matter because having one at the right time in the right place is entirely out of your control. It is much better to build a system capable of handling an idea then to spend a lot of time waiting on the 'right' idea.
Very good post, I especially liked that they built the winning minimum available product so fast: It would have been most likely impossible without all the learning and failed attempts. Unfortunately, some things you can only learn by doing.
And that's the difficult thing. It's inspiring to hear about how a team's long-running lack of constructive feedback finally led to success, but what about the 20 other teams who have gone 3 years and still haven't found it? Don't get me wrong, I like reading stories like this, but there is a lot more at play.
The hardest question which I battle with is knowing when is the right time to fold and start afresh. PG's 'Relentlessly Resourceful' post ties in very well this - http://paulgraham.com/relres.html
I agree. I remember reading Seth Godin's book "The Dip" and the same conundrum is presented: when do you push through the dip and when do you quit?
He says you should quit when you're in a cul-de-sac or heading towards a dead end, both ultimately ending unfavourably. A dip, on the other hand, has a low point that feels like a dead end but inevitably gets better the longer you persist.
A good, short read that gives some suggestions to deciphering which is which if you're interested.
This is really inspirational for people who are working at it, hard, but don't get traction immediately, and all the while are reading about others whose businesses just skyrocketed right away.
It's not always a launch to the moon, sometimes you have to orbit for a while.
Really inspiring article. It's great to attach positives to what you're doing not only to keep your morale up, but also to remind yourself that if what you're working on now doesn't pan out, it's not the end. Crazy to learn, though, that they managed to turn around their business in a matter of three days. Impressive that they kept with it and had the focus to transition to another idea (and make it successful).
Nice post! I've just had a failing experience but that also served to teach me some of the problems and difficulties involved in creating a startup. I'm happy you guys made it and I'm gonna keep trying till I find my place there too.
Great post Vin! A great story and inspiration for everyone who is grinding hard in the startup life. We all need a little reminder that its a slogfest before you make it.
I remember a very nice 2d chart of success vs time with an exponential curve, with a vertical line near the high rise, showing what people see vs what really happens.
[+] [-] jjmaxwell4|14 years ago|reply
It seems that the hardest part is not losing faith as you're grinding away. However corny/lame it sounds, people who believe in you are the most important thing during the grind. How many people did you guys (yipit) have that had your back as you were working away for 2+ years?
I'm not in the Valley, but I've heard that this might be the best part about the it; you don't get judged for working on some random project full time(like this article says happened in New York).
[+] [-] alexkearns|14 years ago|reply
I can understand going through two and half years of no money, pain and self-doubt if you were working on something world-changing. But just another bloody coupon site...
I don't want to be down on these guys. They sound like really nice guys; intelligent, persistent and bright. But, please, no, not another bloody coupon site
[+] [-] patio11|14 years ago|reply
Somewhere out there, there is a scuba diving school / cafe / massage therapy practice which does not have any way to turn money into customers into money into customers. If they had such a thing, it would improve the lives of their customers, allow the business to make payroll, and compensate the owners for the enormous risk, investment, and effort they put into the business. Delivering that -- scalable customer acquisition -- is a sexy, sexy problem. The coupon sites are an implementation detail.
I've got one customer who feeds ten families (and probably expanding soon) in the face of the worst economy his business has ever seen because Groupon Works For Us.
[+] [-] lionhearted|14 years ago|reply
I think it's important to make a distinction between businesses that are aesthetically pleasing and appealing to you, and business-in-general that's successful. Lessons from business-in-general can be very useful even if you wouldn't patronize them yourself and it's always nice when people open up about their experience.
Unless a business is actively knowingly hurting people, I think it's good to celebrate business-in-general even if the aesthetics/offers don't appeal to you.
[+] [-] jjmaxwell4|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arctangent|14 years ago|reply
Tetra Pak (who make milk cartons) are worth billions of dollars. The people who make the toilet paper you wipe your ass with will make more money than most of us can ever aspire to! Boring pays the bills.
[+] [-] zazerr|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leon_|14 years ago|reply
Now I'm not sure about the sustainability of that business model. Investors seem to pump money into it because of Groupon's "success" but I'm skeptical if the group coupon hype will persist for more than the next 2 years.
I'd squeeze all the money I can out of the groupon thing and prepare to start another startup in some time.
[+] [-] billpatrianakos|14 years ago|reply
So I guess my point is that sure, we don't need another damn coupon site (we even have plenty of aggregators too) but that's beside the point and I appreciate the words of advice. That was motivating to me.
[+] [-] mdoerneman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fabiandesimone|14 years ago|reply
I think you should focus on picking one of the hundreds of ideas you might have and set a reasonable time-frame and strip your apps functionality to the core.
Once you arrive at that point, just set aside one hour, even half an hour a day to work on your new start-up. Before you know it you have a product and are up and running and at least have the opportunity to see what happens. This gives you the experience and the opportunity to fail many times (if you decide to do it more than once) so you get the hang of it and still be able to support your family.
Don't regret not trying.
[+] [-] jonpaul|14 years ago|reply
You don't need 2.5 years of a salary and full-time. Thinking that you need that is just an excuse. What you need is to set your priorities and be able to find a way to work an hour or two a day. Surely you can do that? If not, surely you can find a few hours on the weekend? Yes, you'll probably have to sacrifice some things. What you'll have to sacrifice depends on your own situation.
I'm not sure where I read this quote but it sticks with me... "those who want to accomplish something will find a way, those who don't really want to will find an excuse"
[+] [-] patio11|14 years ago|reply
I have a very modestly successful small business, built over the last five years and change. At all points over that interval, I had sufficient income to maintain a wife and children to a standard of living commonly accepted among middle class folks where I live.
There are other options, such as "Transition from full-time salaried employment to contracting/consulting/etc, make a lot more money than you do right now, buy time with money."
[+] [-] diminium|14 years ago|reply
Why is this? Simple math. 24 Hours In A Day x 365.25 Days in a Year x 75 or so years in life = 657,450 hours in life. That's it. You maybe lucky and get more but chances are you'll get less than 657,450 hours.
Every time you use an hour for one task, you give up an hour for another task. One hour spent on your family means one hour lost working on your project. Then again, if your lucky, you may find inspiration in that one hour with your family that may help your idea but that diminishes if your work dwindles into areas which have very little to do with human interaction (e.g. Highly Abstract Math or Physics or Chemistry).
Just my two cents.
[+] [-] eddie_catflap|14 years ago|reply
Having an understanding partner can help. My wife is supportive of my efforts as we both realise that despite being financially comfortable at the moment, we will never be rich and I will never be completely satisfied carrying on in my current or similar roles. And who knows what will happen in the next 30 years? I may spend most of those out of work, unable to get a job due to my age. A fear of regretting never even having tried is a big motivator for me.
As others have said here, there is time to be found. Cut down on the TV. Don't work such long hours for other people. Get up an hour earlier than everyone else, especially at weekends. What I've found is that simply by doing 'stuff', I've become more efficient and more productive with the time I have. Ideas seem to be flowing more easily now as well. You can do it. Good luck.
[+] [-] rlander|14 years ago|reply
I burned all my ships 5 years ago when I decided to quit a fairly successful career as a network engineer for "bigco". I also moved to another city, (literally) burned my rolodex and told everyone I was starting a venture.
I'm still not an "overnight success" but I can tell you one thing: when you can't go back, you have to worry only about the best way of moving forward. In 6 months I was already ramen profitable.
[+] [-] jkeel|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DeusExMachina|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] collinalexander|14 years ago|reply
"Your twenties are not a time to make money, they are a time to build your foundation; your thirties are when you make money."
The exact ages are peripheral, but the idea is sound: incur personal strength and experience and external success will (be more likely to) follow.
Mark Suster's post about a time to learn and a time to earn hints at this same idea: http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/04/is-it-time-for...
[+] [-] mahyarm|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bootload|14 years ago|reply
Interesting observation. The advantage of having multiple founders is shown here where "accountability to comrades", "bonding", and "mutual surveillance" [0] means the founders stuck at the task long after a solo founder might quit in despair.
[0] David Grossman, P21, "Defeating the Enemy’s Will: The Psychological Foundations of Maneuver Warfare" ~ http://killology.com/defeating_the_enemys_will.pdf
[+] [-] johnrob|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmilloy|14 years ago|reply
>I’m convinced that if we had the idea for a daily deal aggregator back in 2007 or 2008 or even 2009, we wouldn’t have gotten traction because we would have messed it up.
>But, after two and half years of failing and learning, we knew exactly what to do
The idea didn't matter as much as the many other components.
[+] [-] vacanti|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danielrhodes|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leon_|14 years ago|reply
No one says ideas don't matter. Without a good idea even the best execution will yield nothing. Ideas alone are just not that much worth. (Other way round this is true too.)
I'm sure that if 100 teams would have tried to execute this specific idea many of them would have failed.
Don't be just the idea guy and don't be just the execution guy. Try to be both :)
[+] [-] Helianthus|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danmaz74|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] larrys|14 years ago|reply
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190426550457656...
[+] [-] ArbitraryLimits|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cousin_it|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robjohnson|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iamclovin|14 years ago|reply
Great story, very inspiring!
[+] [-] collinalexander|14 years ago|reply
He says you should quit when you're in a cul-de-sac or heading towards a dead end, both ultimately ending unfavourably. A dip, on the other hand, has a low point that feels like a dead end but inevitably gets better the longer you persist.
A good, short read that gives some suggestions to deciphering which is which if you're interested.
[+] [-] dr_|14 years ago|reply
It's not always a launch to the moon, sometimes you have to orbit for a while.
[+] [-] Omnipresent|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vacanti|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rglover|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] DallaRosa|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] astrofinch|14 years ago|reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1iR2Wi3u5o
[+] [-] lallouz|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jsvd|14 years ago|reply
Can anyone find it?
[+] [-] tled|14 years ago|reply