I'm vaxxed. I'm boosted. I'd very much like to be done. But my children cannot be vaccinated.
As a parent of a young kid it kind of feels like everyone has just moved on. I know folks in here will tell me that statistically speaking my children are unlikely to be hospitalized and so on, and I agree. But I know enough kids who got COVID and suffered the symptoms (e.g. a months-long scratchy cough) that I'm not going to stop worrying about it. We're still very unclear on the long-term effects of COVID, after all.
Couple that to daycare/preschool shutdowns: if there's a case in the class we've got to keep our kids at home for a week. We both work. We can deal with it, lord knows we've had to do it enough times already, but it's absolutely draining. And the stress of waiting/expecting the phone call from the school is always there, particularly in this Omicron phase where it feels like everyone and their dog is contracting it. And this comes from two parents that work from home. We're the luckiest of the lot!
Pfizer has already announced their trial with under 5s was not successful and they'll have to restart. Moderna was supposed to close out a trial in late November but instead expanded it to hundreds of new participants. Why? Unclear. Last I saw no-one seems to be covering it in detail. Out of sight, out of mind.
You've got your anecdotes, and I've got mine. My 3 young kids all caught omicron last week. Each were lethargic for a day, had a minor sore throat, and were back to normal in a day or two. The flu last month was way scarier with high fevers.
There's a lot of reason to be optimistic about omicron.
You'll drive yourself crazy focusing on every minor risk for children. COVID risk for unvaxed kids is the same as fully vaxed 40 years and much lower than fully vaxed seniors.
If you want to do some productive worrying, figure out how to reduce your child's risk of dying in a car crash. That's much more of a risk.
>Moderna was supposed to close out a trial in late November but instead expanded it to hundreds of new participants. Why? Unclear.
If I had to guess it is probably because you need a large group to prove its effective since so few children get seriously ill. Child mortality is under 0.0002%. You need a huge control group to get any sense of whether the vaccine works at preventing deaths.
I am with you on all of this, with one small, slightly hopeful note. My under-5 is enrolled in the Pfizer study, and they are not starting over from scratch. The existing cohort is going to receive a third dose at >2 months past their last dose (starting at the end of this month, probably), and then immunogenicity will be reassessed. I am incredibly frustrated that pfizer and the fda have been so slow to roll the vaccine out to under-5s, but at least they don’t need to re-do recruitment and phase 1, etc.
My whole family had covid last February including my three young children including one under 1. The children had the mildest symptoms. If you are worried about your children getting covid then I hope you never let near a car as they are much more likely to die in a car crash than covid.
If you want to continue locking your self up fine, I don't care. Just don't try to force others to do the same.
Are you saying that until young kids can get vaccinated, it is not safe enough to remove shutdown protocols for preschools?
Parent of 2 very young kids here btw - it's been brutal, I feel your pain. Frankly, our kids get enough other diseases from nursery that a months-long scratchy cough doesn't sound too terrifying.
I feel like COVID has become like a marshmallow test for adults, where those who can manage their emotions and make rational decisions can set themselves up for greater long-term rewards.
It looked for a while there like this could be a thing that gets “done”—that we would get a good vaccine into enough people, then incidence would decline so far it just goes away.
That didn’t happen. We’re stuck with it for a foreseeable future. Well, one can cry for the world that was, or one can get up and live in the world that is.
We’re not going to be done with vaccines and mandates. And that does not have to be a big deal. I have had to prove vaccination status of my kid for schools and camps for years. It’s annoying but not any harder than keeping my car registration up to date or any other minor bureaucratic headache.
I know someone who almost quit a great job because they were mad about a vaccine mandate from their employer. They were going to give up a good salary, great benefits, and a stable career because they were “so over COVID.” That is what failing the marshmallow test looks like.
> I know someone who almost quit a great job because they were mad about a vaccine mandate from their employer. [...] That is what failing the marshmallow test looks like.
Or perhaps it's a matter of personal principle. Personal conscience and conviction used to be held sacred in the US ... to the point that conscientious objectors wouldn't be forced to fight in wars (they could be assigned to work as medics in Army MASH units, for example, as my grandfather was in the Korean war). In modern US politics, it has become politically incorrect to have a personal principle or conviction that contradicts the approved viewpoint, or otherwise goes against the grain.
Because consideration for personal liberty has gone by the wayside, people are reacting by flatly refusing to be vaccinated. Many are convinced that the vaccine is actually harmful... and I'm convinced that viewpoint only gained traction because of the strong-arming going on in government.
It would have been much better to communicate clearly what we know, keep updating that communication regularly as new data comes in, fund efforts to develop and distribute vaccines, and let people choose without mandating anything. I'd bet the world would look very different today, and far more people would be vaccinated, if the US government had taken this route.
I think the marshmallow test is pretty flawed itself. But maybe the marshmallow test is actually a good analogy. I suspect many of the test "failures" were caused because the test subject (kid) didn't trust the authority figure (test administrator). When you can see a marshmallow with your own eyes, it's more believable. I think it's quite reasonable to factor in some probability that an untrusted stranger would "alter the deal". If you take the marshmallow now, no one can bait-and-switch you.
And it's starting to look like a pretty good description. There are plenty of people who were on-board with the "temporary" restrictions initially who are now doubting that these promised marshmallows are ever going to be delivered. I'm vaxxed. And I'm done. Good luck on getting your marshmallows.
> It looked for a while there like this could be a thing that gets “done”—that we would get a good vaccine into enough people, then incidence would decline so far it just goes away... That didn’t happen. We’re stuck with it for a foreseeable future. Well, one can cry for the world that was, or one can get up and live in the world that is.
Whats the magic number? There are places like New York that have 95% over 18 with at least 1 vaccine and 83.3% with completed vaccination status. But the problems still persist and the entire focus is on those last few percent of people moving the needle, when in the past we've been told "herd immunity" would be conservatively reached at ~70%.
It's interesting that you phrase it that way, because I was thinking exactly the same thing, but from the opposite direction.
I caught covid early, and while (for me) it was a nasty bug, I recovered with nothing more than a lingering cough for several weeks.
Against enormous pressure I decided not to get vaccinated. Everything I read supported that natural immunity is at least as protective as the vaccine, and most studies I've seen say it is much better. This makes sense to me, a natural immune response in a healthy person should be stronger than a vaccine, given that all a vaccine is supposed to do is "train" your immune system via an immune response to a "simulation" of the actual virus (apologies for the gross oversimplification).
I thought the marshmallow test was in the other direction - the millions of people who acquired natural immunity through infection, but "grabbed the marshmallow" in the form of the vaccine. What will the long term effects be? We don't know.
FWIW, my immunity does seem to have been pretty effective, since I just tested positive for Covid. My only symptoms were a light headache and backache. My wife, however was sick for around three days with fever and sore throat laying right next to me in bed, coughing. I took care of her, kissed her on the forehead, etc... I didn't get as much as a sniffle.
The article's description of the "vaxxed and done" mindset is not very different from what you have described -- we accept that the disease will be endemic, and we treat Covid like we treat the flu, including keeping up with annual shots.
The marshmallow test has more to do with kids coming from a poor family, where it's the rational action to take what you can now as the opportunity disappears quickly, rather than with their willpower.
The marshmallow test has been largely debunked by recent follow up studies. It largely acts as a test of socioeconomic conditions at home if anything. The analogy to COVID probably holds but not in the way you’re suggesting.
> I know someone who almost quit a great job because they were mad about a vaccine mandate from their employer.
That situation is impossible to assess without knowing the job description. I would also be hesitant to work at a place if the employer demands vaccinations because they are refusing remote work even when the job description does not require it. We have a pandemic and employers need to minimize unnecessary risks like open floor plans and crowded meetings rooms for employees that doesn't need physical proximity in order to do their job. On the other hand if the job description is being in a hospital or elder care facility, it would be irresponsible to let nonvaccinated employees treat clients. Everything between is a sliding scale that in a pandemic should lean towards safe rather than unsafe.
> It looked for a while there like this could be a thing that gets “done”—that we would get a good vaccine into enough people, then incidence would decline so far it just goes away.
Coronaviruses in general are endemic to humans, and SARS-CoV-2 in particular appears to infect animals. Even if at some point no humans carried the disease, it'd still come back from some cross-species transmission. The only "done" state I ever expected is/was the same situation we have with influenza -- annual vaccine and seasonal waves of illness.
Your marshmallow test framing fails for me. Just as it is often important to signal community and solidarity, it is also often important to signal individuality and resistance to authority.
I'm not going to get vaccinated, and it is out of pride and the principle of it. I'm fortunate that I probably won't lose my job and if I did I would be fine financially. And I am in the age and health range where the absolute benefit of getting vaccinated is vanishingly small. So I don't pretend I'm some martyr or sacrificing for my principles. But it is my own small personal protest.
I have many reasons. Unrepentant corrupt, incompetent, and lying governments and pharmaceutical corporations are among them. But the biggest ones are my anger for coercion and threats of financial ruin people have suffered; the collectivization of health and personal responsibility; and finally I just don't like the way I'm spoken to about it and so I take great pleasure in the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the ruling class enraged by the commoners who refuse to bow down and submit to them.
> one can cry for the world that was, or one can get up and live in the world that is.
This is certainly beside the (your) point, but it's worth mentioning that mourning and grief (ie, to "cry for the world that was") is a crucial and possibly unskippable component to "live in the world that is."
They're certainly not mutually exclusive activities, and I'd love to see more STEM demographics recognize the former's necessity.
> We’re not going to be done with vaccines and mandates. And that does not have to be a big deal.
Sure it does. My body, my choice. I have no problem quarantining myself and have left my house less than 40 times in 2 years. I’m quite capable of managing my health and preventing others from getting what I don’t have so why take the risk with the vaccine? Do you believe that there are no long term effects?
I've gone through cycles with this. Mostly I am done arguing. I hate arguing about this. It's just more of the culture war shit that so many different media sources love pushing to keep people amped up.
I double vaxxed and boosted. Stopped wearing a mask for the most part, but with Omicron I started wearing a mask again because I just don't want this stupid virus. I'm healthy and would probably not have a symptomatic infection. But I still don't want this stupid virus, and I don't want to spread it.
I think for 2022 I am going to try to argue less, and focus more on my areas of personal expertise. I've done a lot of arguing and feel like I'm generally worse off for it.
Vaccinations were sold as the solution to the pandemic.
Yet worldwide infections are going up at the same speed if not faster than before vaccinations. But no policy maker acknowledges this. They refer to the lowered death rate, or blame a new variant.
But it means that policy that gave people more freedom because of their vaccination status are not having any significant effect on decreasing the spread of the disease, they might even make it worse by allowing infectious people to mingle.
Therefore it's very unreasonable and authoritarian to not allow travel, shopping and even fire people over their vaccination status, when an individual decision clearly has a minimal effect on the collective.
Yet politicians are not budging but doubling down on vaccination policy, if there was any trust left in the integrity and capability of our leaders...
I'm fully vax'd and boosted. I'll probably continue to get boosted in the future. All that said? I feel like the government did a really bad job communicating who needs the booster and when.
First, they gave vague recommendations to immunocompromised folks. They said everyone else probably didn't need it. Then they said well, ok for older folks. Then this new omni variant comes out and they're badgering everyone to get boosted NOW or your no longer considered fully vaccinated.
There would have been so much less confusion if they were consistent with their communication from the start, and did a phased rollout of the booster just like they did with the original vaccine.
Edit: My point is that they knew there was reduced efficacy of the vaccine back in September. They knew the general public would eventually need a vaccine. They should have had a plan to gradually get the population boosted. If they had, most who wanted a booster would have had one before omni existed.
Between the 2nd dose putting me in the ER with myocarditis which no one warned me about the risk of, and a $3500 medical bill due, being told I could be maskless and free if I got the "vaccine"[1], getting covid anyways and it being nbd, and then learning that the CDC redefined the meaning of "vaccine" for this treatment[2] (imo "immunotherapy" would be a more understandable word) -- yeah I'm done.
I'm not risking another ER visit, not paying $3500 more for "societal good", and I've lost trust/faith in the establishment to not play bait and switch.
[1] - California had a brief period where if you got vaccinated you could be maskless in gyms and restaurants, this was rescinded in August 2021
[2] - https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25411126... The redefinition undermines what most would colloquially understand as a vaccine -- much like a "cure" something that to a major extent stops one from getting the disease, which the vaccine does not. Yes it's 80% effective at eliminating _hospitalization_ but vaccinated people still get Covid, still go through fever & long covid symptoms (loss of taste/smell anyone?), and still must quarantine else infect others.
I'm double vaxxed and boosted and just spent 4 days in the hospital with Covid.
I actually entered the hospital without Covid and got it while I was in there. They had the entire place divided into separate wings and I had to be transferred between them. 103 degree fever, pulse 130, was pretty awful but came out of it fine.
I, too, am done with all of it. Let the chips fall where they may now.
I don't want to talk about vaccines anymore. Whatever study people have to cherry pick or whatever beliefs you may hold, whatever your stance is, most people have made the decision on whether or not to be vaccinated.
What I wish we focused on instead, is the medical system as a whole. We've been hearing stories everyday about how hospitals are on the brink of collapse. Why, in 2 years of this pandemic, have we not devoted the resources to expanding bed capacity and staffing hospitals? Why is testing still so unsustainable? From day 1 of the pandemic, from social distancing, to masking, to now getting vaccinated, the messaging has been do all of these things to avoid overwhelming the hospitals so it seems weird to me that 2 years later the messaging is exactly the same.
I know everyone is tired of this shit but I just want to remind everyone of one thing:
This is the FIRST time humanity has come together and actually come up with a way to beat a virus WHILE a global pandemic is still ongoing. At no other time in history have we even had the option of a solid way to protect ourselves like we do now. I think instead of focusing on how awful the past few years have been this is an important thing to remember - it is truly a turning point in human history and I think we are going to look back at the centuries beforehand and appreciate how far we have come.
Vaxxed and I caught Cov19 a couple weeks ago (likely omicron). Same with the wife. I've had allergies that were worse. It was a 3 day event with a very mild fever and a bit of a cough the last day. It was extremely mild, and if I hadn't decided to take a couple days off to catch up on my reading after getting tested, I would have probably just eaten a couple advil and continued on as though nothing happened. So now I'm considering skipping any future boosters unless they specifically target a new more dangerous strain.
That said, I'm also still wearing a mask, although i'm having a hard time with the whole concept now too since i should be able to keep my immunity going simply by keeping myself exposed. I was a pretty strong advocate of mask wearing even when the CDC initially told people they could take it off, instead deciding to wait until more people were vaccinated (which never happened in TX). But now, I suspect I might be doing myself a disservice by not exposing myself to all the variants and things floating around.
I think a lot of this depends on the typical severity of Omicron (and future variants).
I'm vaccinated and boosted. I wear a mask in public. I don't go out much. I do travel fairly regularly (fly maybe 1-2x per month). I finally got Covid last week, likely on a flight. I had ~3 days of mild cold-like symptoms (sore throat, runny nose, congestion, very low grade fever that approached 101F). It was far less severe than any flu I've ever had. I extended my trip by a week to meet how I read the CDC guidelines (which are clear as mud for mildy symptomatic cases).
If the severity for everyone was that mild, then I'd say we're done. However, I worry about the unvaccinated and the unboosted. I wish there was better data on the severity of Omicron for different categories of people.
Great article! Just a week or two ago on this forum there were people willing to treat me like a far right conservative or a general anti-vaxxer from the facebook troll factory, just because I didn't like a private institution’s booster mandate.
Welcome to the internet. Some of it stems from exhaustion. People sense any sort of deviation from the official dogma and they assume you're another idiot who they'll end up arguing with. It's sad. There is a lot of nuance to many of our cherished positions and discussion strengthens the truth but many people just get offended by genuine curiosity.
I'm not sure vaccine or booster mandates make sense anymore because they're not effective enough against stopping the spread of omicron. Charging more for insurance for the unvaccinated still makes sense, though.
We still don't know if the omicron variant leads to "long COVID".[1] We'll know some time in February. That has a big effect on what to do next.
Omicron-specific vaccines are in test. Moderna's should be out in Fall 2022. Pfizer claims March 2022.[2]
The next generation in vaccine technology is the US Army / Walter Reed Medical Center broad-spectrum vaccine. This should protect against all COVID and SARS variants.[3] That's in Phase I safety testing, with about 75 volunteers. If that works, the problem is solved.
1. My personal risk, as someone who is vaccinated, 38, and in decent shape (https://imgur.com/a/gdbBKGK), is quite low. (OK, I could lose some holiday weight, fine.)
2. My immediate friend circle is vaccinated…and the vast majority already danced with Omicron already, and came out just fine.
3. I live by myself.
So…I am over it. This variant seems to be unbelievably, uncontrollably contagious, and the spread cannot be mitigated without extreme measures. And the people who are at by far, BY FAR the most at-risk are the elderly unvaccinated, who have had ample opportunity to get vaccinated. They will probably be exposed to this virus no matter what I personally do, and probably no matter what anyone does, so why should I substantially alter my life for them, when it will almost certainly change nothing?
—
And to rant just a bit more: “oh it’s just a mask”. Well, I’m sorry, I have this weird thing where I like to see people’s faces, and see their expressions so that I can get a better idea of their emotional responses. I know. So inhuman of me. (I do wonder if the people who think masks are no big deals have anything resembling social circles…)
You would think in 38 years a person could learn some body language. Between that and seeing someone's eyes, I have little to no problem reading people's reactions with a mask on.
If you are having trouble it may be a personal problem.
I think the message of "vaxxed and done" is the right way for us to be moving, but I think it's incomplete.
To get vaxxed insulates you from the risk of severe disease. It reduces the risk to the point that going out and living life is an acceptable risk, just like any other. However, it doesn't protect you from infecting others. To that end, I think that indoor mask mandates continue to be justifiable and should continue until we either evolve a COVID-19 variant weak enough that moderate disease isn't disruptive, or it fades away.
In order for us to continue to have freedom, it requires collective sacrifice. We have seen a large swath of the US population unwilling to make relatively simple sacrifices to ensure that we have freedom of mobility. This is disappointing to see.
I'm vaxxed and mostly done. Already contracted Covid, have 2 vaccines, I'm down to get a booster every year or two, at my own leisure. Having vaccines mandated every 6 months is not something I'm OK with and to be honest, it feels a lot like the government trying to deflect from the fact healthcare isn't OK (at least in my home country, Canada).
There's always been risks to life and this feels more like governments are trying to convince people the risk should be zero so they can be the heroes while at the same time expanding their powers...
I'm not vaxxed - but want to be. I tested positive for COVID now a second time last week and taking a few days off to be safe. This time it felt a lot easier to go through so I assume it's Omicron. First time around in July 2020, I was in bed for a day and couldn't smell anything for about a month.
My partner on the other hand has no desire for us to get vaxxed because they know people personally who have died after getting the shots. We also know many who died from getting COVID. We're not anti-vax people generally, our kids are all got regular shots but with this, we decided to skip it for the time being. Knowing this, we intentionally wear masks when needed and try to operate safely and give distance.
I think the US government failed in communicating properly and now with the approach of "shunning the unvaxxed", it's only causing further divide and a lot of my conservative friends will now never get it as a way to spite the government orders.
I am one of those, triple vaxxed and done. CDC has now said that the majority of those that died had 4+ co-morbidities. They have also indicated that getting vaccinated does not reduce your ability to spread the virus. So if that is the case, there is no longer a real need to vilify the unvaxxed. CDC statement appears to indicate that the primary reason for people dying is poor physical health prior to infection. With that said I do think vaccines likely reduce the severity of the infection but I don't buy all these people saying they would have died if not for the vaccine, how do they know? This has motivated me to start working out again and to try and lose weight. Going to make sure my kids are physically active now as well. Omicron is essentially impossible to avoid at this point short of locking yourself in a room and having everything delivered to your front door. The risks are known and its time to trust people to weigh those risks and make their own decisions.
I think the issue now is a political one. The democratic party has hung their hat on how bad covid is and how important it is to get vaccinated and to state at this point, NVM lets just get back to normal would be a loss of face. Instead of just saying that the virus has evolved and is less lethal now they have continued to double down on the vaccine mandate which I don't agree with. I am a democrat so I am not coming at this as a republican. I am not downplaying the severity of the virus but at this point it is here to stay. Even if we locked down for 3 months, once we were released someone from another country would come in and re-infect everyone again. Also during lock down do we once again tell the poorest among us that while they are 'essential' that they are also worth less and must continue to work and face the risk alone so as to ensure the rest of us can isolate in safety at home.
Edit: I said "does not reduce your ability to spread the virus" I meant to say "does not remove". My fault.
> To understand how ideologically scrambling the Omicron wave has been, consider this: Some 2022 Democrats are sounding like 2020 Republicans. ... In the current Omicron wave, these Republican talking points seem to have mostly come true—for most vaccinated non-senior adults, who are disproportionately Democrats.
This is such a stupid lead sentence. 2020 Republicans and 2022 Democrats are talking about different diseases in an entirely different global context.
The talking points didn't "come true" any more than saying it's raining while it's sunny out "comes true" if it happens to start raining a week later. The Republicans in 2020 were completely wrong to downplay the seriousness of a rapidly spreading disease we knew little about, that was killing thousands of people, and that we had no vaccines or good treatments for.
The fact that the current strain is less deadly, we've learned more about it, millions are vaccinated, and we have better treatments doesn't mean they were somehow right all along.
[+] [-] afavour|4 years ago|reply
As a parent of a young kid it kind of feels like everyone has just moved on. I know folks in here will tell me that statistically speaking my children are unlikely to be hospitalized and so on, and I agree. But I know enough kids who got COVID and suffered the symptoms (e.g. a months-long scratchy cough) that I'm not going to stop worrying about it. We're still very unclear on the long-term effects of COVID, after all.
Couple that to daycare/preschool shutdowns: if there's a case in the class we've got to keep our kids at home for a week. We both work. We can deal with it, lord knows we've had to do it enough times already, but it's absolutely draining. And the stress of waiting/expecting the phone call from the school is always there, particularly in this Omicron phase where it feels like everyone and their dog is contracting it. And this comes from two parents that work from home. We're the luckiest of the lot!
Pfizer has already announced their trial with under 5s was not successful and they'll have to restart. Moderna was supposed to close out a trial in late November but instead expanded it to hundreds of new participants. Why? Unclear. Last I saw no-one seems to be covering it in detail. Out of sight, out of mind.
[+] [-] mizzack|4 years ago|reply
There's a lot of reason to be optimistic about omicron.
[+] [-] rhino369|4 years ago|reply
If you want to do some productive worrying, figure out how to reduce your child's risk of dying in a car crash. That's much more of a risk.
>Moderna was supposed to close out a trial in late November but instead expanded it to hundreds of new participants. Why? Unclear.
If I had to guess it is probably because you need a large group to prove its effective since so few children get seriously ill. Child mortality is under 0.0002%. You need a huge control group to get any sense of whether the vaccine works at preventing deaths.
[+] [-] nradov|4 years ago|reply
https://www.medscape.com/answers/971488-177692/what-is-the-p...
[+] [-] el_benhameen|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agensaequivocum|4 years ago|reply
If you want to continue locking your self up fine, I don't care. Just don't try to force others to do the same.
[+] [-] ya_throw|4 years ago|reply
Parent of 2 very young kids here btw - it's been brutal, I feel your pain. Frankly, our kids get enough other diseases from nursery that a months-long scratchy cough doesn't sound too terrifying.
[+] [-] snowwrestler|4 years ago|reply
It looked for a while there like this could be a thing that gets “done”—that we would get a good vaccine into enough people, then incidence would decline so far it just goes away.
That didn’t happen. We’re stuck with it for a foreseeable future. Well, one can cry for the world that was, or one can get up and live in the world that is.
We’re not going to be done with vaccines and mandates. And that does not have to be a big deal. I have had to prove vaccination status of my kid for schools and camps for years. It’s annoying but not any harder than keeping my car registration up to date or any other minor bureaucratic headache.
I know someone who almost quit a great job because they were mad about a vaccine mandate from their employer. They were going to give up a good salary, great benefits, and a stable career because they were “so over COVID.” That is what failing the marshmallow test looks like.
[+] [-] TimTheTinker|4 years ago|reply
Or perhaps it's a matter of personal principle. Personal conscience and conviction used to be held sacred in the US ... to the point that conscientious objectors wouldn't be forced to fight in wars (they could be assigned to work as medics in Army MASH units, for example, as my grandfather was in the Korean war). In modern US politics, it has become politically incorrect to have a personal principle or conviction that contradicts the approved viewpoint, or otherwise goes against the grain.
Because consideration for personal liberty has gone by the wayside, people are reacting by flatly refusing to be vaccinated. Many are convinced that the vaccine is actually harmful... and I'm convinced that viewpoint only gained traction because of the strong-arming going on in government.
It would have been much better to communicate clearly what we know, keep updating that communication regularly as new data comes in, fund efforts to develop and distribute vaccines, and let people choose without mandating anything. I'd bet the world would look very different today, and far more people would be vaccinated, if the US government had taken this route.
[+] [-] recursive|4 years ago|reply
And it's starting to look like a pretty good description. There are plenty of people who were on-board with the "temporary" restrictions initially who are now doubting that these promised marshmallows are ever going to be delivered. I'm vaxxed. And I'm done. Good luck on getting your marshmallows.
[+] [-] bko|4 years ago|reply
Whats the magic number? There are places like New York that have 95% over 18 with at least 1 vaccine and 83.3% with completed vaccination status. But the problems still persist and the entire focus is on those last few percent of people moving the needle, when in the past we've been told "herd immunity" would be conservatively reached at ~70%.
https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/vaccination-progress-date
[+] [-] claytongulick|4 years ago|reply
I caught covid early, and while (for me) it was a nasty bug, I recovered with nothing more than a lingering cough for several weeks.
Against enormous pressure I decided not to get vaccinated. Everything I read supported that natural immunity is at least as protective as the vaccine, and most studies I've seen say it is much better. This makes sense to me, a natural immune response in a healthy person should be stronger than a vaccine, given that all a vaccine is supposed to do is "train" your immune system via an immune response to a "simulation" of the actual virus (apologies for the gross oversimplification).
I thought the marshmallow test was in the other direction - the millions of people who acquired natural immunity through infection, but "grabbed the marshmallow" in the form of the vaccine. What will the long term effects be? We don't know.
FWIW, my immunity does seem to have been pretty effective, since I just tested positive for Covid. My only symptoms were a light headache and backache. My wife, however was sick for around three days with fever and sore throat laying right next to me in bed, coughing. I took care of her, kissed her on the forehead, etc... I didn't get as much as a sniffle.
[+] [-] twblalock|4 years ago|reply
The article's description of the "vaxxed and done" mindset is not very different from what you have described -- we accept that the disease will be endemic, and we treat Covid like we treat the flu, including keeping up with annual shots.
[+] [-] lawn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wilde|4 years ago|reply
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/06/marshmall...
[+] [-] belorn|4 years ago|reply
That situation is impossible to assess without knowing the job description. I would also be hesitant to work at a place if the employer demands vaccinations because they are refusing remote work even when the job description does not require it. We have a pandemic and employers need to minimize unnecessary risks like open floor plans and crowded meetings rooms for employees that doesn't need physical proximity in order to do their job. On the other hand if the job description is being in a hospital or elder care facility, it would be irresponsible to let nonvaccinated employees treat clients. Everything between is a sliding scale that in a pandemic should lean towards safe rather than unsafe.
[+] [-] jdminhbg|4 years ago|reply
Such as?
[+] [-] xapata|4 years ago|reply
Coronaviruses in general are endemic to humans, and SARS-CoV-2 in particular appears to infect animals. Even if at some point no humans carried the disease, it'd still come back from some cross-species transmission. The only "done" state I ever expected is/was the same situation we have with influenza -- annual vaccine and seasonal waves of illness.
[+] [-] ellyagg|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] disambiguation|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] throwawaylinux|4 years ago|reply
I have many reasons. Unrepentant corrupt, incompetent, and lying governments and pharmaceutical corporations are among them. But the biggest ones are my anger for coercion and threats of financial ruin people have suffered; the collectivization of health and personal responsibility; and finally I just don't like the way I'm spoken to about it and so I take great pleasure in the wailing and gnashing of teeth by the ruling class enraged by the commoners who refuse to bow down and submit to them.
[+] [-] rexpop|4 years ago|reply
This is certainly beside the (your) point, but it's worth mentioning that mourning and grief (ie, to "cry for the world that was") is a crucial and possibly unskippable component to "live in the world that is."
They're certainly not mutually exclusive activities, and I'd love to see more STEM demographics recognize the former's necessity.
[+] [-] tekknik|4 years ago|reply
Sure it does. My body, my choice. I have no problem quarantining myself and have left my house less than 40 times in 2 years. I’m quite capable of managing my health and preventing others from getting what I don’t have so why take the risk with the vaccine? Do you believe that there are no long term effects?
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] defaultprimate|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] upsidesinclude|4 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] titzer|4 years ago|reply
I double vaxxed and boosted. Stopped wearing a mask for the most part, but with Omicron I started wearing a mask again because I just don't want this stupid virus. I'm healthy and would probably not have a symptomatic infection. But I still don't want this stupid virus, and I don't want to spread it.
I think for 2022 I am going to try to argue less, and focus more on my areas of personal expertise. I've done a lot of arguing and feel like I'm generally worse off for it.
[+] [-] toshk|4 years ago|reply
Vaccinations were sold as the solution to the pandemic.
Yet worldwide infections are going up at the same speed if not faster than before vaccinations. But no policy maker acknowledges this. They refer to the lowered death rate, or blame a new variant.
But it means that policy that gave people more freedom because of their vaccination status are not having any significant effect on decreasing the spread of the disease, they might even make it worse by allowing infectious people to mingle.
Therefore it's very unreasonable and authoritarian to not allow travel, shopping and even fire people over their vaccination status, when an individual decision clearly has a minimal effect on the collective.
Yet politicians are not budging but doubling down on vaccination policy, if there was any trust left in the integrity and capability of our leaders...
[+] [-] wing-_-nuts|4 years ago|reply
First, they gave vague recommendations to immunocompromised folks. They said everyone else probably didn't need it. Then they said well, ok for older folks. Then this new omni variant comes out and they're badgering everyone to get boosted NOW or your no longer considered fully vaccinated.
There would have been so much less confusion if they were consistent with their communication from the start, and did a phased rollout of the booster just like they did with the original vaccine.
Edit: My point is that they knew there was reduced efficacy of the vaccine back in September. They knew the general public would eventually need a vaccine. They should have had a plan to gradually get the population boosted. If they had, most who wanted a booster would have had one before omni existed.
[+] [-] maerF0x0|4 years ago|reply
I'm not risking another ER visit, not paying $3500 more for "societal good", and I've lost trust/faith in the establishment to not play bait and switch.
[1] - California had a brief period where if you got vaccinated you could be maskless in gyms and restaurants, this was rescinded in August 2021
[2] - https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25411126... The redefinition undermines what most would colloquially understand as a vaccine -- much like a "cure" something that to a major extent stops one from getting the disease, which the vaccine does not. Yes it's 80% effective at eliminating _hospitalization_ but vaccinated people still get Covid, still go through fever & long covid symptoms (loss of taste/smell anyone?), and still must quarantine else infect others.
[+] [-] EMM_386|4 years ago|reply
I actually entered the hospital without Covid and got it while I was in there. They had the entire place divided into separate wings and I had to be transferred between them. 103 degree fever, pulse 130, was pretty awful but came out of it fine.
I, too, am done with all of it. Let the chips fall where they may now.
[+] [-] BoysenberryPi|4 years ago|reply
What I wish we focused on instead, is the medical system as a whole. We've been hearing stories everyday about how hospitals are on the brink of collapse. Why, in 2 years of this pandemic, have we not devoted the resources to expanding bed capacity and staffing hospitals? Why is testing still so unsustainable? From day 1 of the pandemic, from social distancing, to masking, to now getting vaccinated, the messaging has been do all of these things to avoid overwhelming the hospitals so it seems weird to me that 2 years later the messaging is exactly the same.
[+] [-] Melatonic|4 years ago|reply
This is the FIRST time humanity has come together and actually come up with a way to beat a virus WHILE a global pandemic is still ongoing. At no other time in history have we even had the option of a solid way to protect ourselves like we do now. I think instead of focusing on how awful the past few years have been this is an important thing to remember - it is truly a turning point in human history and I think we are going to look back at the centuries beforehand and appreciate how far we have come.
[+] [-] StillBored|4 years ago|reply
That said, I'm also still wearing a mask, although i'm having a hard time with the whole concept now too since i should be able to keep my immunity going simply by keeping myself exposed. I was a pretty strong advocate of mask wearing even when the CDC initially told people they could take it off, instead deciding to wait until more people were vaccinated (which never happened in TX). But now, I suspect I might be doing myself a disservice by not exposing myself to all the variants and things floating around.
[+] [-] drewg123|4 years ago|reply
I'm vaccinated and boosted. I wear a mask in public. I don't go out much. I do travel fairly regularly (fly maybe 1-2x per month). I finally got Covid last week, likely on a flight. I had ~3 days of mild cold-like symptoms (sore throat, runny nose, congestion, very low grade fever that approached 101F). It was far less severe than any flu I've ever had. I extended my trip by a week to meet how I read the CDC guidelines (which are clear as mud for mildy symptomatic cases).
If the severity for everyone was that mild, then I'd say we're done. However, I worry about the unvaccinated and the unboosted. I wish there was better data on the severity of Omicron for different categories of people.
[+] [-] vmception|4 years ago|reply
That was fascinating.
[+] [-] 01100011|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dehrmann|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arrakis2021|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|4 years ago|reply
Omicron-specific vaccines are in test. Moderna's should be out in Fall 2022. Pfizer claims March 2022.[2]
The next generation in vaccine technology is the US Army / Walter Reed Medical Center broad-spectrum vaccine. This should protect against all COVID and SARS variants.[3] That's in Phase I safety testing, with about 75 volunteers. If that works, the problem is solved.
[1] https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/view/-omicron-the-pand...
[2] https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta...
[3] https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2021/12/us-army-create...
[+] [-] perardi|4 years ago|reply
1. My personal risk, as someone who is vaccinated, 38, and in decent shape (https://imgur.com/a/gdbBKGK), is quite low. (OK, I could lose some holiday weight, fine.)
2. My immediate friend circle is vaccinated…and the vast majority already danced with Omicron already, and came out just fine.
3. I live by myself.
So…I am over it. This variant seems to be unbelievably, uncontrollably contagious, and the spread cannot be mitigated without extreme measures. And the people who are at by far, BY FAR the most at-risk are the elderly unvaccinated, who have had ample opportunity to get vaccinated. They will probably be exposed to this virus no matter what I personally do, and probably no matter what anyone does, so why should I substantially alter my life for them, when it will almost certainly change nothing?
—
And to rant just a bit more: “oh it’s just a mask”. Well, I’m sorry, I have this weird thing where I like to see people’s faces, and see their expressions so that I can get a better idea of their emotional responses. I know. So inhuman of me. (I do wonder if the people who think masks are no big deals have anything resembling social circles…)
[+] [-] SixDouble5321|4 years ago|reply
If you are having trouble it may be a personal problem.
[+] [-] Spartan-S63|4 years ago|reply
To get vaxxed insulates you from the risk of severe disease. It reduces the risk to the point that going out and living life is an acceptable risk, just like any other. However, it doesn't protect you from infecting others. To that end, I think that indoor mask mandates continue to be justifiable and should continue until we either evolve a COVID-19 variant weak enough that moderate disease isn't disruptive, or it fades away.
In order for us to continue to have freedom, it requires collective sacrifice. We have seen a large swath of the US population unwilling to make relatively simple sacrifices to ensure that we have freedom of mobility. This is disappointing to see.
[+] [-] Mikeb85|4 years ago|reply
There's always been risks to life and this feels more like governments are trying to convince people the risk should be zero so they can be the heroes while at the same time expanding their powers...
[+] [-] khazhoux|4 years ago|reply
This is the only place I have to talk about COVID issues with smart people that I respect.
[+] [-] CedarMills|4 years ago|reply
My partner on the other hand has no desire for us to get vaxxed because they know people personally who have died after getting the shots. We also know many who died from getting COVID. We're not anti-vax people generally, our kids are all got regular shots but with this, we decided to skip it for the time being. Knowing this, we intentionally wear masks when needed and try to operate safely and give distance.
I think the US government failed in communicating properly and now with the approach of "shunning the unvaxxed", it's only causing further divide and a lot of my conservative friends will now never get it as a way to spite the government orders.
[+] [-] wonderwonder|4 years ago|reply
I think the issue now is a political one. The democratic party has hung their hat on how bad covid is and how important it is to get vaccinated and to state at this point, NVM lets just get back to normal would be a loss of face. Instead of just saying that the virus has evolved and is less lethal now they have continued to double down on the vaccine mandate which I don't agree with. I am a democrat so I am not coming at this as a republican. I am not downplaying the severity of the virus but at this point it is here to stay. Even if we locked down for 3 months, once we were released someone from another country would come in and re-infect everyone again. Also during lock down do we once again tell the poorest among us that while they are 'essential' that they are also worth less and must continue to work and face the risk alone so as to ensure the rest of us can isolate in safety at home.
Edit: I said "does not reduce your ability to spread the virus" I meant to say "does not remove". My fault.
[+] [-] munificent|4 years ago|reply
This is such a stupid lead sentence. 2020 Republicans and 2022 Democrats are talking about different diseases in an entirely different global context.
The talking points didn't "come true" any more than saying it's raining while it's sunny out "comes true" if it happens to start raining a week later. The Republicans in 2020 were completely wrong to downplay the seriousness of a rapidly spreading disease we knew little about, that was killing thousands of people, and that we had no vaccines or good treatments for.
The fact that the current strain is less deadly, we've learned more about it, millions are vaccinated, and we have better treatments doesn't mean they were somehow right all along.