As someone who worked for MSFT for so long, this bit really makes me happy - mostly since no one would have given this much odds of happening.
"With the introduction of OS X Lion, Apple gave us a glimpse at what a post-PC operating system might look like, and now Microsoft's gone and pushed that idea to the limit. If Cupertino's latest was a tease, than Windows 8 is full frontal. And we have to admit, we like what we see. "
It's hard to relate to the excitement when the demo was chock-full of usability failure. How many times did the presenters struggle to register their gestures?
Someone will no doubt say "it's a developer release – we'll fix all that". My response to that is "Apple would never let that see the outside of a top-secret lab".
Also, am I the only person who thinks this is the polar opposite of "post-PC"? Desktop, start menu, right-click, etc. Maybe "touch PC" is more apt?
Ditto. Hats off to Sinofsky for having the balls to push this through. Looks like an amazing release. I think he'll take over from Ballmer if Windows 8 is a success.
This makes me really excited about the future of the 'desktop' ( => tablet). Microsoft has really nailed it in terms of user experience and performance. This is a good example of out innovating the competition and no other company is better suited to execute on this than Microsoft.
I did not really understand what was meant by this. What is it about Windows 8 that is going to provide a better user experience? It certainly looks a bit different from other offerings, but I cannot discern what it is that people think is better.
It looks very streamlined and powerful - quite arguably more functional than today's iPad - but it's problematic that I don't see anything that makes anyones' life appreciably better. A Flipboard clone, mobile Internet, Twitter, Photos - nothing revolutionary. Really, really good, but nothing to give an iPad or Xoom owner buyer's remorse unless these are ridiculously cheap (I don't see how they'll have any price advantage over Apple or Googlerolla). Tablets will own this holiday season, which MS is missing out on, and remember that Windows 8 tablets will ship in the shadow of the iPad 3. Which, in turn, means that Android and iPad will remain the lead platform for large form touchscreen apps for the medium term future.
When the build conference keynote's over, watch the recording. I think the killer feature will be having every device you pick up be tailored to you. When you hand it to your wife, it's tailored to her... just by signing in with a Windows Live ID instead of a local user/password. Your contacts, e-mail, calendar, photos, files, apps, desktop, bookmarks, individual app settings -- it will all be there on whatever device you pick up, whether it's a tablet, a phone, a desktop PC, your work PC. Windows 8 uses Microsoft's cloud to bust through firewalls on every end to connect every device you touch.
Isn't it too early for that? Given the number of developers working with Microsoft's ecosystem, I don't think it will be long until they have a market as big as Apple's or Google's when it's released.
I think that WP7 wasn't a hit because MS made terrible partnerships and became a second-class OS vendor to everyone but Nokia, but I belive that the tablets will give MS more independence, will bring other makers to the table, and it will change. They're just late to the party.
> the desktop that you've grown used to in Windows 7 is still present, albeit as an app
Interesting parallel with the introduction of Windows. Windows 3.1 still ran entirely on top of DOS; but DOS was demoted in Windows 95 and replaced entirely in Windows NT, from which point it has run as a VM on top of the OS.
According to TIMN it's running an Intel Core i5. Wow. Seriously? I realize this is just a developer preview device, but if Windows 8 needs that kind of power, then what about ARM tablets that are supposed to compete with iPad? How will it run on them? And how much battery life will it have on those Intel-powered tablets? These questions are all unanswered and Engadget didn't even touch on any of them.
"All of the above sections should give you a solid look at what Windows 8 is shaping up to be, but what about the hardware? While we got a look at the OS running on a few laptops and all-in-ones during the press preview meeting, we’ve spent most of the time testing the OS on the prototype tablet. Powered by a 1.6GHz Core i5-2467M processor and a 64GB solid state drive, the system is absolutely no slouch on performance — everything from scrolling in the browser to the Start screen is extremely speedy and the system boots incredibly quickly. However, fan noise is very noticeable, as is the heat coming out of the top vent, and a fast boot doesn’t excuse the slow wake-up times compared to ARM-based cellphones and tablets."
These questions aren't unanswered; Windows 8 has been demoed on many ARM devices now, and the build conference demos show specifically how tuned for power usage it is. The new kernel is very much focused on power management.
These are developer devices - meant for compiling code. Therefore, they are high powered, chock full of every hardware feature that Win 8 will support, so that devs can play around with them, compile code and use them as their primary machine. This is a desktop replacement machine for development, not an iPad replacement.
In reality, the gap between Arm and x86 isn't all that big.
You are used to seeing Arm in phones, designed for power efficiency and slim profile. There are also tablets, which have more powerful Arm systems. However, batteries make up the bulk of these devices. They trick you in this respect. You are used to Arm being 'lite' and 'low profile'.
Then we have x86 systems. You are used to seeing these in desktops, that use hundreds of watts. In laptops, these can get much better efficiency. The problem is most laptops only have small batteries. x86 compilers have also evolved over a much longer time, so they are more efficient in their job. So you are used to x86 being 'bulky' and 'powerful'.
This explains why Engadget never said anything about the hardware it was running on. They were prohibited to say anything about it. I wonder why?
"Keep this in mind as you read: both the operating system and hardware are developer preview builds. In fact, the [REDACTED] hardware (we're prohibited from even revealing its manufacturer or specs) isn't even going to run Windows 8."*
I don't know why you're making a big deal of this in multiple posts but the specs were shown in a slide in BUILD, so it's not like a big secret or conspiracy to hide the specs.
Am I the only one who virtually never uses windows desktop? I am either in particular app, or just click "start", type a few letters and run what I need. My desktop is just a background when nothing is running. Windows 8 new desktop might make it useful again.
I don't use a desktop on any OS for anything other than temp storage for files. I use Chrome/Geany/terminal 90% of the time and I have quick launch shortcuts for those in both Windows and Linux.
On my Android phone, however, I use the "desktop" exclusively to find what I need. Maybe transitioning desktop UI's to something similar is a great move.
My desktop is split between two monitors; the left monitor is for regular work and is usually covered up by full-screen (or close to it) applications. The right monitor is full of a cascade of windows, so each window is selectable from their bottom left corners.
Apart from that, the background is just used to show pictures. It's surprisingly awkward with multiple monitors: I had to write a program that composed the pictures I wanted to display, then set that new picture as a tiled background. If you don't do that correctly, and you have multiple monitors with different resolutions, you end up with either the same image on all monitors, or clipped / stretched / distorted versions on all but the "home" monitor (the one that owns (0,0)).
It's the best thing since sliced bread for Windows, I've been using it for a couple of years now and can't go back. Just hit alt-space, enter few letters and launch. Just like Awesomebar but for launching apps. It indexes all files if you want and it's quick as snap.
I have mixed feelings for developing for Windows 8. I got my hands a little on Visual Studio, and it's hands-down the most powerful, stable and complete IDE I ever used.
If Microsoft could have something similar for coding with JavaScript,and HTML; along with tools for storage, database, revision control, testing, jquery... integrated inside that IDE. Well, I just can't miss programming with it.
I was at a .NET user group meeting last week. Scott Hanselman showed off the current development build; guess what, it has the same support for HTML, JS, Jquery, and CSS editing that it has for MS languages.
Why isn't Engadget mentioning the chip it's running. That's very strange. Because if it does run Intel's chip as rumored, then this is the version to run on the desktop, but not the one to run on ARM, so it probably has lower battery life.
What's really interesting to me is that Windows 8 seems almost entirely focused on the consumer market. What about those of us using our desktop PCs every day to do real work?
I mean, do we really have to boot into that fancy-pants Metro UI every time we want to actually get something done?
I'm totally fine with swiping this way and that when using a tablet PC (I love my iPad), but when I sit down at a desktop PC, I want a mouse/keyboard driven experience - period.
Very excited to play with this hands-on tonight/tomorrow. My only concerns are as follows:
- Multiple monitors. How does this play nicely with them, and how I traditionally lay-out several open applications across them? Can one monitor be Metro UI and the other be the classical desktop? Or, can I have a full-screen app on one monitor that doesn't brick the other screen? (Looking at you, OSX Lion)
- App windows that might not necessarily fit into the tile or fullscreen approach. The prime example of this is my chat/social desktop or space. I typically have a contacts list, tabbed chat window, IRC, and twitter feed all on the same monitor arranged around one another. I know they demoed a way to do split-screen apps while still in the Metro UI, but it seemed to be too simple for real use.
- How jarring is the switch between Metro and the retro desktop? If I'm going along fine at 90% productivity living completely in the Metro UI on my monitors, and then all of a sudden need to open a small window from a legacy app, is that going to completely monopolize my workspace? If half of my apps work in Metro, and the other half don't while programming, am I going to have to keep switching between the UIs every 30 seconds as I'm working? That would be a pretty big deal-breaker.
For multiple monitors - yes, you can have 1 monitor dedicated for Metro and the other for classic Desktop and I believe you can flip between them as well. And believe the keynote demo also addressed your 2nd question on that.
Ok, Metro looks nice.
I just hope they do similar to Apple and provide something between "mouse" and "touch"... like all the trackpad gestures Apple uses to make their desktop OS more touch-oriented while avoiding the dreaded gorilla arm https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Touchscreen#G...
I think Windows 8 will be interesting. The one thing I don't like about Windows, since Vista, is the splintering of the client version (basic, home, professional, ultimate). I think MS should just make one client version for a flat $150.00.
Microsoft isn't Apple. Their biggest customers aren't end users; they're large corporations with thousands of users, and PC manufacturers. Tempting end users is just marketing to them.
The touch-enabled part of this preview and the fact that Microsoft stays close to their excellent Metro UI looks very promising. I also see the point of keeping the traditional windows elements like the desktop or explorer. However I really don't get why the explorer has to stay that traditional. I'm sure there would have been a way to make it usable with mouse AND touch input - maybe by replacing all those ribbon elements by only the most commonly used actions as icon only, preferably in Metro style.
Right now this feels like an unnecessary break from the promising and fresh approach that is Metro on a desktop (or tablet).
This is largely an entrepreneurial site, so tell me: if you tried a concept and it failed, then you repackaged and tried again with another failure (redo this step multiple times as necessary), then saw someone else alter your concept and have enormous success would you:
a) Learn from them and make a product that competes in that space or
b) Try your same multiple-times-failed strategy again?
If you're MS it seems option b is the right answer. PC in tablet form, take... what, 5?
In what why is this the same strategy? Windows 8 has a completely new API. Win32, which has been around since the early 90s is gone. The new API doesn't even have the concept of overlapping windows. WinRT talks directly to the kernel. In that respect, Windows 8 is as much of a "new thing" as the iPad or Android or any other tablet OS.
The only thing they've chosen to do differently is in marketing. The other tablet OSes are marketed as completely new things and Microsoft is marketing it as an iteration on an old thing.
This looks pretty nice, its good to see M$ being able to step so far out of their comfort zone vis-a-vis competition between the 'core' windows franchise and the 'other' products. My belief was that the thing that really killed the 'Tablet' version of windows was that they didn't have an 'all in' mode where there was no legacy PC stuff there.
[+] [-] sriramk|14 years ago|reply
"With the introduction of OS X Lion, Apple gave us a glimpse at what a post-PC operating system might look like, and now Microsoft's gone and pushed that idea to the limit. If Cupertino's latest was a tease, than Windows 8 is full frontal. And we have to admit, we like what we see. "
[+] [-] sunchild|14 years ago|reply
Someone will no doubt say "it's a developer release – we'll fix all that". My response to that is "Apple would never let that see the outside of a top-secret lab".
Also, am I the only person who thinks this is the polar opposite of "post-PC"? Desktop, start menu, right-click, etc. Maybe "touch PC" is more apt?
[+] [-] volandovengo|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dr_rezzy|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] absconditus|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Steko|14 years ago|reply
Cheat Sheet for People Who Type Stuff for Engadget And Want To Be Good at Other Things Too:
iOS = post PC
Lion = first step in bridging PC and post-PC
Windows 8 = [strikethrough] your grandpa trying to rap [/strikethrough] second step to bridging PC and post-PC
[+] [-] saturdaysaint|14 years ago|reply
So: nice, but this doesn't stop their disruption.
[+] [-] dangrossman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] runjake|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tychobrahe|14 years ago|reply
I think that WP7 wasn't a hit because MS made terrible partnerships and became a second-class OS vendor to everyone but Nokia, but I belive that the tablets will give MS more independence, will bring other makers to the table, and it will change. They're just late to the party.
[+] [-] recoiledsnake|14 years ago|reply
You can even hook up a second monitor to it.
[+] [-] RyanMcGreal|14 years ago|reply
Interesting parallel with the introduction of Windows. Windows 3.1 still ran entirely on top of DOS; but DOS was demoted in Windows 95 and replaced entirely in Windows NT, from which point it has run as a VM on top of the OS.
[+] [-] Rusky|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lloeki|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nextparadigms|14 years ago|reply
"All of the above sections should give you a solid look at what Windows 8 is shaping up to be, but what about the hardware? While we got a look at the OS running on a few laptops and all-in-ones during the press preview meeting, we’ve spent most of the time testing the OS on the prototype tablet. Powered by a 1.6GHz Core i5-2467M processor and a 64GB solid state drive, the system is absolutely no slouch on performance — everything from scrolling in the browser to the Start screen is extremely speedy and the system boots incredibly quickly. However, fan noise is very noticeable, as is the heat coming out of the top vent, and a fast boot doesn’t excuse the slow wake-up times compared to ARM-based cellphones and tablets."
http://thisismynext.com/2011/09/13/windows-8-tablet-photos-v...
[+] [-] dangrossman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jra101|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] varunsrin|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] keeperofdakeys|14 years ago|reply
You are used to seeing Arm in phones, designed for power efficiency and slim profile. There are also tablets, which have more powerful Arm systems. However, batteries make up the bulk of these devices. They trick you in this respect. You are used to Arm being 'lite' and 'low profile'.
Then we have x86 systems. You are used to seeing these in desktops, that use hundreds of watts. In laptops, these can get much better efficiency. The problem is most laptops only have small batteries. x86 compilers have also evolved over a much longer time, so they are more efficient in their job. So you are used to x86 being 'bulky' and 'powerful'.
[+] [-] nextparadigms|14 years ago|reply
"Keep this in mind as you read: both the operating system and hardware are developer preview builds. In fact, the [REDACTED] hardware (we're prohibited from even revealing its manufacturer or specs) isn't even going to run Windows 8."*
http://gizmodo.com/5839665/windows-8-slate-hands-on-its-fant...
[+] [-] recoiledsnake|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hasanove|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Random_Person|14 years ago|reply
On my Android phone, however, I use the "desktop" exclusively to find what I need. Maybe transitioning desktop UI's to something similar is a great move.
[+] [-] barrkel|14 years ago|reply
Apart from that, the background is just used to show pictures. It's surprisingly awkward with multiple monitors: I had to write a program that composed the pictures I wanted to display, then set that new picture as a tiled background. If you don't do that correctly, and you have multiple monitors with different resolutions, you end up with either the same image on all monitors, or clipped / stretched / distorted versions on all but the "home" monitor (the one that owns (0,0)).
[+] [-] Geee|14 years ago|reply
It's the best thing since sliced bread for Windows, I've been using it for a couple of years now and can't go back. Just hit alt-space, enter few letters and launch. Just like Awesomebar but for launching apps. It indexes all files if you want and it's quick as snap.
Apparently it's also available for Mac and Linux.
[+] [-] csomar|14 years ago|reply
If Microsoft could have something similar for coding with JavaScript,and HTML; along with tools for storage, database, revision control, testing, jquery... integrated inside that IDE. Well, I just can't miss programming with it.
[+] [-] stoptothink|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eykanal|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spaetzel|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nextparadigms|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kms002|14 years ago|reply
I mean, do we really have to boot into that fancy-pants Metro UI every time we want to actually get something done?
I'm totally fine with swiping this way and that when using a tablet PC (I love my iPad), but when I sit down at a desktop PC, I want a mouse/keyboard driven experience - period.
[+] [-] Pewpewarrows|14 years ago|reply
- Multiple monitors. How does this play nicely with them, and how I traditionally lay-out several open applications across them? Can one monitor be Metro UI and the other be the classical desktop? Or, can I have a full-screen app on one monitor that doesn't brick the other screen? (Looking at you, OSX Lion)
- App windows that might not necessarily fit into the tile or fullscreen approach. The prime example of this is my chat/social desktop or space. I typically have a contacts list, tabbed chat window, IRC, and twitter feed all on the same monitor arranged around one another. I know they demoed a way to do split-screen apps while still in the Metro UI, but it seemed to be too simple for real use.
- How jarring is the switch between Metro and the retro desktop? If I'm going along fine at 90% productivity living completely in the Metro UI on my monitors, and then all of a sudden need to open a small window from a legacy app, is that going to completely monopolize my workspace? If half of my apps work in Metro, and the other half don't while programming, am I going to have to keep switching between the UIs every 30 seconds as I'm working? That would be a pretty big deal-breaker.
[+] [-] pcj|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] r00fus|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RexRollman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ben_straub|14 years ago|reply
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckie...
[+] [-] thirdsun|14 years ago|reply
Right now this feels like an unnecessary break from the promising and fresh approach that is Metro on a desktop (or tablet).
[+] [-] danssig|14 years ago|reply
a) Learn from them and make a product that competes in that space or
b) Try your same multiple-times-failed strategy again?
If you're MS it seems option b is the right answer. PC in tablet form, take... what, 5?
[+] [-] MatthewPhillips|14 years ago|reply
The only thing they've chosen to do differently is in marketing. The other tablet OSes are marketed as completely new things and Microsoft is marketing it as an iteration on an old thing.
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Sindrome|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sdo|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] J3L2404|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RexRollman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danssig|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cooldeal|14 years ago|reply