I always took "buy experiences not things" to mean that you should put your money towards having experiences, whether that's paying for a trip or buying something that enables you to do something you couldn't without it.
A kayak is a "thing", but it's the gateway to an experience. If I buy someone a kayak, I don't intend for them to just hang it in their garage and look at it. I expect they'll actually use it.
If I buy someone a board game, I expect they'll play it with other people. If I buy someone a food basket, I expect they'll not only eat it, but share it with their family and make a memory around it.
If I buy someone a $1 toy from Dollar Store, I expect they'll play with it for a few minutes, and then throw it away. Yes, that was still an experience, but it's a pretty hollow one, and so it's just a "thing", though I suppose there's still a chance it could generate good memories.
OTOH, pre-painted figurines... I just don't see how they create an experience. They're literally just there to look at. They might remind you of an experience you already had, but they don't create or enable experiences.
And by extension, you could apply this to almost all art.
And I definitely don't think people should stop buying (or producing) art. I end up thinking about the advice sometimes, but I don't follow it.
For art, you experience it if it resonates with you. So, for me art is first an experience.
But going back to the original article, it says:
"A well-appointed kitchen allows you to cook healthy meals for yourself rather than ordering delivery night after night."
As we discussed with an architect about renovating a house, he asked us our budget for the kitchen. We said that we paid about 2500€ for our current kitchen, so we were ready to spend 5000 to renovate. His answer was: "You, you are really cooking!". His 20 year experience was that the more expensive the kitchen, the less it is used. We are effectively cooking every single day of the week.
> A Lamborghini may be fun to drive for the first days or weeks, but pretty soon it fades into the background of your life.
That depends on whether you bought it for yourself or to show off. A lot of people buy/wear/own expensive tools to show off, as a status symbol. Especially those who can afford a Lamborghini are seen as such (whether appropriate or not I don't know). At the same time, many people who cannot afford a Lamborghini would love to drive around in one which feeds into the status symbol loop ('you want this'). Good news! They can do that, virtually, with a fraction of the cost. They buy the experience, not the thing. I am not sure what the point of this entire write-up is, I just found it a terrible example. Because almost everyone who owns one car, owns it primarily as a tool, not an experience. Yes, it provides an experience, but its mostly a tool. A tool has a lowest common denominator. It has to work reasonably well, well enough, for its purpose. If you're rich, you may have higher standards and might get annoyed about your Tesla's entertainment system instead of the conventional car of a poor person leaking oil.
As for kayak, I can resonate with your example. I went to Venice as child, with my father (who has since passed away). My father was in a wheelchair back then, he had MS and could barely walk. Every bridge, we needed help to get him across. People helped. We didn't see the cathedral (too much effort), but we did end up in a gondola. Though it took effort to get him in, and it was 'on our own risk', this was very special for us as a family, including me. Before my father became ill (he was a photography nerd among other things) he made a picture of a man with a gondola in the 70s and won a national competition with it which hung in our house. And now I, his son, was able to experience the same with him. I have no idea how much my mom paid in Italian Lira for the experience, but I know for sure I wouldn't have wanted to buy the boat or the man. Because the experience is a memory which only old age can take away from me, no amount of money can describe it. Remember how I mentioned people helped? They'll never know it, but I am grateful.
My $300 Costco Pelican Kayak is probably the best $ spent on the amount of fun experiences I've had with it. It turned out that there's an Island I can kayak to in under an hour from my house, that is teeming with birds and wildlife and has a secluded sandy beach. It feels like being transported to Hawaii every time. But I've kayaked to other places with it too and its such an awesome experience. It's something you can do on your own or with a friend, go hard to get exercise or easy to relax. Antidote to the lockdowns. Maybe pair it with a bike or rollerblades. And you have a full upper/lower body workout better than a gym.
> OTOH, pre-painted figurines... I just don't see how they create an experience... And by extension, you could apply this to almost all art.
I think you could expand the kinds of experiences to be a little broader. Say a tattoo: I got mine because it makes me happy to see it, routinely. Getting some figurines or art that make your space - home, work, your body, etc. - bring your more happiness/less dreariness (even if only a little, every day, day after day) can be worth it. I'd make the same argument for plants, though I think plants have a little more inherent vs. personal benefit.
For me, art is about stopping me for a moment and forcing reflection, realization, or something similar. I have a painting a love, that I just stop to look at sometimes. I feel like I see something different in it as time goes by. Same for movies: some are just purely entertainment, others help me introspect and put me in position to think about who I consider and interact with the world.
In short: "experiences" need not always be relating to the external.
I think it just depends on the receiver of the gift. My daughter LOVES figurines and her and her friends will get together and role play with their different animals. It’s very much an experience. But I’d never buy something like that for my wife :)
Don’t forget “collecting” is an experience too. Even if you don’t get much experience from an item the hobby of collecting itself is an experience. Deciding what to buy and when. How to display it, etc.
> So I would, if anything, reverse the maxim: “Buy things, not experiences!” Sure, the Lambo might still be a waste of money, but thoughtfully chosen material goods can enable new activities can enrich your life, extend your capabilities, and deepen your understanding of the world.
certain goods can "enable new activities". It seems like the author is still prioritizing experiences, just acknowledging that some experiences require things. Camping is a good example.
I think the author misunderstands the original point though. Overconsumption generally leads to having a big collection of stuff, ever larger houses to store it. Having a reasonable collection of items that the user can leverage to have higher quality experiences, that are built to last where possible makes absolute sense. What is reasonable? That's for everyone to decide themselves. I don't find "buy things, not experiences" to add much to the discussion though.
Maybe a more flexible maxim would be "buy what lasts". A memory can last, but overpaying for an insta photo op is a fleeting status bump. The skis that let you take spontaneous adventures in with friends might last, but yet another single-use kitchen appliance probably won't. Disposable goods and services attract the most exploitative business models.
This feels like a straw man argument. Who was saying you should not own a set of tools, nice kitchen wares, or exercise equipment? Some people, I’m sure, but not the economists (or psychologists or whatever) who found the “experiences produce more happiness than things” effect, nor most of the people who use this principle to guide their purchases. The idea is that a vacation does more for you than buying a new car instead of a used one (i.e., that this applies to purchases made with disposable income/for fun), not that you should eschew pots and pans in favor of purchasing restaurant experiences. Further, I think most people who generally prefer experiences to things acknowledge that acquiring thoughtfully chosen objects can be a very good idea.
You would be surprised with the kinds of people out there. I used to flat share in a large city with a friend and I had bought most of the kitchen wares since the flat was unfurnished and I had a preference to cook at home. He would constantly tell me how I only cared for things and I should be a minimalist like him. When I was packing to move out on my own he was complaining that I was taking everything and it would be unfair to not leave most of my things behind and I should by new things when I move into the new place. I would hesitate to generalise that people want experiences over things or actually understand what minimalism is
The "things" in the charitable reading of "buy experiences not things" are about the throwaway consumerism stuff that ends up in landfills. Stuff like fast fashion or kids toys that children get immediately bored of the day after Christmas.
A minimalist can get rid of all the unworn clothes cluttering up the closet while also buying a sewing machine to make clothes the wearer truly loves. The advice to "buy experiences not things" shouldn't mean sacrificing the sewing machine and only use that money for a trip to see a Paris fashion show.
I think reasonable people already know that many hobbies require buying things.
The sectors of the economy that are becoming more expensive every year – which are preventing people from building durable wealth – include real estate and education, both items that are sold by the promise of irreplaceable “experiences.” Healthcare, too, is a modern experience that is best avoided. As a percent of GDP, these are the growing expenditures that are eating up people’s wallets, not durable goods.
I don't find this type of reasoning very persuasive.
First of all, "experiences" like live music or tourism seem to be conspicuously absent ("education" is an experience?! healthcare? People want to pay for the experience to be in a hospital?).
This, in turn, makes me wonder what the author has in mind when he talks of "durable goods". A laptop? A camera? a fridge?
My read is that the author is using "experience" to mean "something produced in a low-productivity sector" and "thing" to mean "something produced in a high-productivity sector", which is definitely an idiosyncratic interpretation of those words.
Indeed this is more than weird. My mind simply cannot grasp why on earth would somebody advocate for dumbing down the education or healthcare. It's not like they perform that great, or that they're optional/luxury/impulse.
This! When people "buy experiences" and travel/visit etc, I just don't really find it interesting. I buy things because I enjoy doing stuff with them. I buy a camera and a drone because I like taking shots. I buy a new computer because I like coding/design/video editing and it does it faster. On the other hand, I've never found traveling an enjoyable activity of any kind. It's just extra stress for me (unless there's some specific reason that excites me that justifies it all). I buy tools that enable me to create more stuff, and I'd always pick it over many experiences that I'd buy.
I think the strawman here is assuming that an experience needs to be "bought".
What kind of photos/videos do you take with your camera/drone if you don't like traveling/visiting places?
In any case, the author makes the distinction between experience-like things. A camera is a perfect example of an experience-enabling thing. Photography and videography are experiences. I don't think anyone in the "buy experiences not things" crowd would discourage buying a camera, or something like say a surfboard, snowboard, basketball, woodworking tools, raspberry pi, etc since those enable experiences.
On the topic of travel - personally I think it's extremely valuable from a cultural/educational perspective to venture outside of one's city and/or country at least once in one's lifetime. I've spent the last 4 years traveling and living abroad, and while I wouldn't necessary recommend going that hard, I certainly wouldn't trade the experience for anything. Also, experience is more than just buying plane/train tickets and hotel rooms, nor do experiences necessitate travel.
When I buy a thing, I can use it for a while then sell it on eBay to recoup some of the cost. I can return it to the store if I don’t find it useful. With some items, I can share it with a friend and he can get the same utility from it. None of these things are true for purchased experiences.
I used to think I liked travel, but turned around later in life. To me, travel is nothing but stress. Let’s take a typical international trip: Big payment up front for plane tickets, hotel, rental car and so on up front, then you’re praying it all goes well. You can substitute travel insurance for prayer if you want to spend even more money. Then, the security/boarding circus of air travel. Then cramped seating and crap service in what has turned into a Greyhound Bus in the sky. Once you land, assuming the airline didn’t lose your bags, you and the rest of the cattle are marched through immigration and customs, where you pretty much have no rights as a human being. Finally you are in your glorious destination! Except you probably don’t speak or understand the native language so everything you do is going to be 5X more difficult than at home. You rent a car that’s not as nice/familiar as yours, stay in a hotel that just doesn’t have everything you’re used to at home. With kids in tow you’re desperately trying to keep everyone corralled together and (in some destinations) not kidnapped. Finally, you hit some tourist sites, lay on the beach, check out the local cities, whatever your goal was. Then, back to the circus to get home. COVID has added “pass last minute COVID tests or you are stuck without compensation” to the equation. By the time you’re home you are so thankful to get back to real life! Spent all that time and money for what? A memory that we can’t even sell on the secondhand market. Maybe 100 more photos on the phone which we might look at again sometime later.
Last vacation I took with my family, my spouse mentioned to me two days before it started “I can’t wait till this is all over and we’re back here at home again!” I agreed, and we both realized “why are we doing this??”
> This! When people "buy experiences" and travel/visit etc, I just don't really find it interesting.
Agreed. The things I buy make my life richer in some way that matters to me. The person buying the Lambo presumably has his life made a little better for owning the car.
I know someone who, even though they had to sell their house due to loss of income, did not miss a single vacation (at least once each year, sometimes twice, to a resort) in the last 25 years. They told me, at least once when I was buying some new toy for myself, that experiences matter more than material goods, because "after all, you can't take it with you".
Then they got annoyed when I asked them if they thought that they're taking their memories with them.
Given a choice between blowing a ton of money on some ephemeral thing and only having a memory of it in return, and blowing a ton of money on some concrete long-lasting item, I will pick the item most of the time.
After all, the more assets you can leave your children, the better off they will be. They can also turn those assets back into money.
Travel is spraying you with novelty from a firehose. Everything around you is new - people, buildings, cusine, language, nature, climate e.t.c.
It's not for everyone, sure
A personal example is my motorcycle. It's as material a thing as you can get, but the enjoyment I had gotten out of it would be hard to match if I looked to "buy experiences" instead.
Of course, the by-product of owning a motorcycle is getting the experiences of riding it through beautiful canyon roads, feeling the wind on your body, and meeting new friends in the community. But it had to start with "buying things".
We're different then. On the road is the only time I truly feel unburdened by the stresses and distractions of everyday life. My best and most creative ideas come while on the road.
"Buy experiences, not things" have always bothered me as irrational.
Sure, one-off experiences are valuable, but I think they're overrated. Maybe it's because I don't have a good memory, but, to me, an experience is orders of magnitude more valuable in that moment, while it's happening, than the memory of it, which will fade, and eventually disappear entirely.
Buying experiences are short term value propositions for me, they're great while they last, but they tend to fade, and the absolutely best of them, those that fade slowly or not at all, those cannot be bought anyway.
Things on the other hand, are an investment in the future, it I buy an item, I will have many opportunities to derive value from it, at least as long as I can remember that I own it.
"Experiences not things" is a reaction against how my parents and other family live their lives. They don't have carefully chosen tools and possessions that maximize their possessions. They have mountains of garbage, huge houses stuffed to the rafters with a lifetime of Walmart shopping. Decaying, worthless, unused trash that can never be thrown away, protected like a dragon's hoard. Minimalism is not a rationalization for urbanism, it's a reaction against our trash-addicted magpie forefathers.
Yes, I recently read that the average American home has 300,000 items in it. Having so much stuff isn't helping you experience the world, it is a hindrance to it.
Becoming a parent (and maybe the pandemic?) just flipped this switch for me.
I had been getting more and more invested in minimalism and the buy experiences not things vibe when all of a sudden everything changed and now I'm happy with many of the things listed in OP.
I'm not going out to bars half of my nights. I can't even remember the last time I went to a bar. I have my beers at home, in the comfort of my living room.
All of a sudden I want more space, a bigger house, a backyard. A nicer, bigger, safer car.
>All of a sudden I want more space, a bigger house, a backyard. A nicer, bigger, safer car.
Which is appealing but they all come with a price. Part of that price might include longer hours, working a job you don't like or an extended commute. None of that is good for your relationship with your kids.
During the pandemic I moved into a <400 sq ft apartment with my partner and we love it. Comme ci comme ca. Also, please don't get a bigger car, they are usually less safe, often for the occupants and definitely for the people outside.
If we really want to live a minimalist life, then forget about throwing away boxes of stuff, and focus on downsizing education, real estate, and healthcare.
If you have a functional kitchen and a home gym (or tennis rackets or cross-country skis), you might reduce your dependence on healthcare.
This part of the thesis is really twisted thinking. It exemplifies how healthcare is just an afterthought in certain places, until people become affected by the desolate condition of the US healthcare system themselves. I gather it's because in general healthy younger people don't think much about the ones that are disabled or have been hit with a health crisis (accident[0], cancer, psychosis). At that point the reflective reaction I see is to appeal to others (e.g. GoFundMe). I'd rather people think about and work towards having a health care system that shares the burden across the whole population.
As with all things there is a balance. I’ve removed many physical things (whole categories of things in some cases) from my life, but at the same time I have a full home gym, more tools than I really need and more bikes than my wife thinks I need.
In some areas I would be considered Spartan and in others indulgent. The key is paying attention to what things/experiences make you happy and spend your time and money there, regardless of what other people think.
Getting rid of your stuff should only be a priority if it brings you some quality of life improvement - otherwise buy all the stuff you want.
As someone who’s moved a lot in the last ten years, I have an intrinsic affinity to minimalism. When you’ve moved three or four times in as many years, you really question each “thing” you’re packing up and loading into a truck for the third or fourth time.
Further, the last decade I’ve spent a major part of my recreational time out with friends rather than sitting at home like Golem coveting his precious or Smaug content to be alone with my hoard of material possessions.
I guess, sure, if your life’s goal is to own a house in the suburbs and obtain the nuclear family with a spouse and 2.5 kids, where your neighbors measure your status based on your possessions, then this piece makes great points!
Otherwise, I call bullshit, because I’ve definitely made memories and stories I can look back at with more than fondness, that were amazing to experience, and just as fun to recount with friends now. I wouldn’t for a second trade those experiences for a new couch, TV, or sound system. IMO, OP is basing a lot of their opinions on relative uneventful life.
The author proves a weak opinion piece that seems to actually reinforce the idea of enabling experiences. Slogans are short but understanding is long & nuanced. People who debate slogans don't debate the underlying intention & meaning behind them.
"Buy experiences, not things" doesn't mean only spending money on experiences that leave no material effects, it means spending money enabling experiences rather than spending money that doesn't. There is no such thing as "thing-like experiences", there are experiences enabled by purchases. Merely purchasing amazing camping gear doesn't provide you an experience, but using it does and that's an experience you've spent money on, not a "thing-like experience". On the other hand, upgrading your phone one version is unlikely to enable the same increase in experiences.
Many people seem to like the experience of buying things and trying them out, though.
Otherwise it would be hard to explain the current "pro" audio plugin market, for example. Neither hobbyists nor professionals need hundreds of compressor and EQ plugins but companies have figured out that they will nevertheless buy them if the price hits a certain low sweet spot. Unless it becomes an addiction, I doubt this really makes them unhappy. It's mostly just a harmless "waste" of discretionary salary.
Buying things can be equally problematic, speaking as someone with a bit of an impulse control problem who has probably 200 more board games than I have proper storage for and are spilling out all over the place (some in the garage, some in the sitting room, dining room, living room, basement, my office, the crawlspace, a walk-in closet, just laying on the ground in some circumstances). There comes a point where getting more of a thing isn't really useful anymore.
Also, it really should be "buy neither". I'm trying to stop my bad buying habits this year, in part, because it's helping contribute negatively to climate change. Those games (or any good) have to be manufactured and transported, and use up precious resources we have on his planet.
But experiences (at least the ones most people think of when they say this, like long-distance travel) also contributes badly to climate change. Which is another thing I'm struggling with, because I've never really traveled outside the US (except a week in Canada, once), and I've been mostly stuck within a three state radius for the past two years. I've always valued other cultures and seeing the world, just didn't feel like I can afford to before, and now I have to feel guilty for wanting to do that while the climate change specter looms.
I may still let myself make a big trip or two at some point, as just watching other people do it on streams or whatever isn't quite the same, but my bucket list for travel was pretty long and it no longer really feels super ethical to burn a bunch of jet emissions just so I can see in person what the Angkor Wat ruins look like in Cambodia, as an example of what was on there.
There's probably lots to see closer them that people ignore because everyone keeps being encouraged to think big and grand with experiences. State parks can have some beauty in them as well, even if they're smaller and simpler, you don't always have to go to national parks or other countries to see nature. My wife and I did quite a few of those near us the past two years and there's still quite a few more we could explore within a two hour drive of us.
Its almost like there isn't an easy either/or scenario here. Life can't be broken down into such an easy phrase.
Most of the things I own are to enable experiences. I enjoy kayaking and backpacking. Is my kayak a thing or is my kayaking an experience. I'd say it fits both.
I'm a happy consumerist and love to buy things, whereas experiences are less important to me because I don't like traveling and only want to go out occasionally. So I kind of agree with the author, maybe I'm even a bit more radical.
I sometimes even research things I don't really need at all just to find out what's the best one at a reasonable price. For example, I have pretty much the best metal pencil sharpener of the world attached to my table, use a mechanical keyboard, have a very neat monocular in my backback, have the optimal backpack, have a special sports fountain pen and the (for me) best pocket knife in my pocket, etc. Recently, I've bought inflatable solar-powered candle imitations that my girlfriend absolutely loves. I've even bought a printing adding machine, not the best but a fairly good one, and occasionally enjoy using it even though it's definitely the last thing I'd really need. It rattles in a pleasant way.
To cut a long story short, it seems obvious that life advice in both directions is somewhat shallow. Some people prefer to spend their money on traveling, others prefer things. Claiming that experiences are better sounds like a marketing ploy by companies who offer "vanity lifestyle products & experiences."
When you own things, your benefit from them comes from your experience of them when they are in use. As you increase the number of things in your life, the average utility of them decreases. There are a few counter examples[0], but for most people spending their own private money it follows that rule. Note that this is not the case with average degree of quality, but usually quality costs hit diminishing returns pretty fast (a couple of doublings).
Ok so really what the original argument was saying wasn't the straw man of living like a stoic vs buying a better car or toaster. The original argument was taking time to experience the world is worth the cost compared to the alternative. That it's better to have a Honda instead of a Porsche if it means you had time to travel Europe and Africa for half a year instead.
And I mostly agree with that. I don't mind shelling out the dollars for stuff that really matters like my primary dev machine, or what have you, but I really don't need $500 sweaters, or a luxury car, even though I can afford it. The delta to my own enjoyment just isn't worth it compared to other priorities like travelling or helping someone out.
[0] e.g., horse plus cart is better than two horses or two carts.
I find recreational travel to be the height of consumerism. It's massively polluting and wasteful.
I do it a bit myself, but I'm not going to pretend I'm better than someone else becausethey wastefully buy different things while I wastefully got to different places.
It is best avoided. Avoid meaning to alter your course in advance, i.e.:
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, or
the best way to stay healthy is not to get sick.
[+] [-] wccrawford|4 years ago|reply
A kayak is a "thing", but it's the gateway to an experience. If I buy someone a kayak, I don't intend for them to just hang it in their garage and look at it. I expect they'll actually use it.
If I buy someone a board game, I expect they'll play it with other people. If I buy someone a food basket, I expect they'll not only eat it, but share it with their family and make a memory around it.
If I buy someone a $1 toy from Dollar Store, I expect they'll play with it for a few minutes, and then throw it away. Yes, that was still an experience, but it's a pretty hollow one, and so it's just a "thing", though I suppose there's still a chance it could generate good memories.
OTOH, pre-painted figurines... I just don't see how they create an experience. They're literally just there to look at. They might remind you of an experience you already had, but they don't create or enable experiences.
And by extension, you could apply this to almost all art.
And I definitely don't think people should stop buying (or producing) art. I end up thinking about the advice sometimes, but I don't follow it.
[+] [-] Loic|4 years ago|reply
But going back to the original article, it says:
"A well-appointed kitchen allows you to cook healthy meals for yourself rather than ordering delivery night after night."
As we discussed with an architect about renovating a house, he asked us our budget for the kitchen. We said that we paid about 2500€ for our current kitchen, so we were ready to spend 5000 to renovate. His answer was: "You, you are really cooking!". His 20 year experience was that the more expensive the kitchen, the less it is used. We are effectively cooking every single day of the week.
[+] [-] Fnoord|4 years ago|reply
That depends on whether you bought it for yourself or to show off. A lot of people buy/wear/own expensive tools to show off, as a status symbol. Especially those who can afford a Lamborghini are seen as such (whether appropriate or not I don't know). At the same time, many people who cannot afford a Lamborghini would love to drive around in one which feeds into the status symbol loop ('you want this'). Good news! They can do that, virtually, with a fraction of the cost. They buy the experience, not the thing. I am not sure what the point of this entire write-up is, I just found it a terrible example. Because almost everyone who owns one car, owns it primarily as a tool, not an experience. Yes, it provides an experience, but its mostly a tool. A tool has a lowest common denominator. It has to work reasonably well, well enough, for its purpose. If you're rich, you may have higher standards and might get annoyed about your Tesla's entertainment system instead of the conventional car of a poor person leaking oil.
As for kayak, I can resonate with your example. I went to Venice as child, with my father (who has since passed away). My father was in a wheelchair back then, he had MS and could barely walk. Every bridge, we needed help to get him across. People helped. We didn't see the cathedral (too much effort), but we did end up in a gondola. Though it took effort to get him in, and it was 'on our own risk', this was very special for us as a family, including me. Before my father became ill (he was a photography nerd among other things) he made a picture of a man with a gondola in the 70s and won a national competition with it which hung in our house. And now I, his son, was able to experience the same with him. I have no idea how much my mom paid in Italian Lira for the experience, but I know for sure I wouldn't have wanted to buy the boat or the man. Because the experience is a memory which only old age can take away from me, no amount of money can describe it. Remember how I mentioned people helped? They'll never know it, but I am grateful.
[+] [-] dukeofdoom|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HelloMcFly|4 years ago|reply
I think you could expand the kinds of experiences to be a little broader. Say a tattoo: I got mine because it makes me happy to see it, routinely. Getting some figurines or art that make your space - home, work, your body, etc. - bring your more happiness/less dreariness (even if only a little, every day, day after day) can be worth it. I'd make the same argument for plants, though I think plants have a little more inherent vs. personal benefit.
For me, art is about stopping me for a moment and forcing reflection, realization, or something similar. I have a painting a love, that I just stop to look at sometimes. I feel like I see something different in it as time goes by. Same for movies: some are just purely entertainment, others help me introspect and put me in position to think about who I consider and interact with the world.
In short: "experiences" need not always be relating to the external.
[+] [-] WalterBright|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] twodave|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrfusion|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lui8906|4 years ago|reply
certain goods can "enable new activities". It seems like the author is still prioritizing experiences, just acknowledging that some experiences require things. Camping is a good example.
I think the author misunderstands the original point though. Overconsumption generally leads to having a big collection of stuff, ever larger houses to store it. Having a reasonable collection of items that the user can leverage to have higher quality experiences, that are built to last where possible makes absolute sense. What is reasonable? That's for everyone to decide themselves. I don't find "buy things, not experiences" to add much to the discussion though.
[+] [-] evrydayhustling|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] netfl0|4 years ago|reply
He is dead-on.
[+] [-] elil17|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] calvinv|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jasode|4 years ago|reply
A minimalist can get rid of all the unworn clothes cluttering up the closet while also buying a sewing machine to make clothes the wearer truly loves. The advice to "buy experiences not things" shouldn't mean sacrificing the sewing machine and only use that money for a trip to see a Paris fashion show.
I think reasonable people already know that many hobbies require buying things.
[+] [-] Pamar|4 years ago|reply
I don't find this type of reasoning very persuasive. First of all, "experiences" like live music or tourism seem to be conspicuously absent ("education" is an experience?! healthcare? People want to pay for the experience to be in a hospital?).
This, in turn, makes me wonder what the author has in mind when he talks of "durable goods". A laptop? A camera? a fridge?
[+] [-] gonzo41|4 years ago|reply
All of what I listed may not be durable forever, but for the cost they go a good while.
When I'm 80, I don't want to spend 80% of my wealth on living another year.
[+] [-] frankus|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] soco|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] can16358p|4 years ago|reply
Good to see that I'm not really alone.
[+] [-] JSavageOne|4 years ago|reply
What kind of photos/videos do you take with your camera/drone if you don't like traveling/visiting places?
In any case, the author makes the distinction between experience-like things. A camera is a perfect example of an experience-enabling thing. Photography and videography are experiences. I don't think anyone in the "buy experiences not things" crowd would discourage buying a camera, or something like say a surfboard, snowboard, basketball, woodworking tools, raspberry pi, etc since those enable experiences.
On the topic of travel - personally I think it's extremely valuable from a cultural/educational perspective to venture outside of one's city and/or country at least once in one's lifetime. I've spent the last 4 years traveling and living abroad, and while I wouldn't necessary recommend going that hard, I certainly wouldn't trade the experience for anything. Also, experience is more than just buying plane/train tickets and hotel rooms, nor do experiences necessitate travel.
[+] [-] ryandrake|4 years ago|reply
When I buy a thing, I can use it for a while then sell it on eBay to recoup some of the cost. I can return it to the store if I don’t find it useful. With some items, I can share it with a friend and he can get the same utility from it. None of these things are true for purchased experiences.
I used to think I liked travel, but turned around later in life. To me, travel is nothing but stress. Let’s take a typical international trip: Big payment up front for plane tickets, hotel, rental car and so on up front, then you’re praying it all goes well. You can substitute travel insurance for prayer if you want to spend even more money. Then, the security/boarding circus of air travel. Then cramped seating and crap service in what has turned into a Greyhound Bus in the sky. Once you land, assuming the airline didn’t lose your bags, you and the rest of the cattle are marched through immigration and customs, where you pretty much have no rights as a human being. Finally you are in your glorious destination! Except you probably don’t speak or understand the native language so everything you do is going to be 5X more difficult than at home. You rent a car that’s not as nice/familiar as yours, stay in a hotel that just doesn’t have everything you’re used to at home. With kids in tow you’re desperately trying to keep everyone corralled together and (in some destinations) not kidnapped. Finally, you hit some tourist sites, lay on the beach, check out the local cities, whatever your goal was. Then, back to the circus to get home. COVID has added “pass last minute COVID tests or you are stuck without compensation” to the equation. By the time you’re home you are so thankful to get back to real life! Spent all that time and money for what? A memory that we can’t even sell on the secondhand market. Maybe 100 more photos on the phone which we might look at again sometime later.
Last vacation I took with my family, my spouse mentioned to me two days before it started “I can’t wait till this is all over and we’re back here at home again!” I agreed, and we both realized “why are we doing this??”
[+] [-] lelanthran|4 years ago|reply
Agreed. The things I buy make my life richer in some way that matters to me. The person buying the Lambo presumably has his life made a little better for owning the car.
I know someone who, even though they had to sell their house due to loss of income, did not miss a single vacation (at least once each year, sometimes twice, to a resort) in the last 25 years. They told me, at least once when I was buying some new toy for myself, that experiences matter more than material goods, because "after all, you can't take it with you".
Then they got annoyed when I asked them if they thought that they're taking their memories with them.
Given a choice between blowing a ton of money on some ephemeral thing and only having a memory of it in return, and blowing a ton of money on some concrete long-lasting item, I will pick the item most of the time.
After all, the more assets you can leave your children, the better off they will be. They can also turn those assets back into money.
[+] [-] chalcolithic|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elxr|4 years ago|reply
Of course, the by-product of owning a motorcycle is getting the experiences of riding it through beautiful canyon roads, feeling the wind on your body, and meeting new friends in the community. But it had to start with "buying things".
[+] [-] JKCalhoun|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] skilled|4 years ago|reply
It completely altered my life, consciousness even.
If a Lambo can replicate that, I will gladly save money to buy one down the road.
[+] [-] dusted|4 years ago|reply
Buying experiences are short term value propositions for me, they're great while they last, but they tend to fade, and the absolutely best of them, those that fade slowly or not at all, those cannot be bought anyway.
Things on the other hand, are an investment in the future, it I buy an item, I will have many opportunities to derive value from it, at least as long as I can remember that I own it.
[+] [-] dougmwne|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tonyedgecombe|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ravishi|4 years ago|reply
I had been getting more and more invested in minimalism and the buy experiences not things vibe when all of a sudden everything changed and now I'm happy with many of the things listed in OP.
I'm not going out to bars half of my nights. I can't even remember the last time I went to a bar. I have my beers at home, in the comfort of my living room.
All of a sudden I want more space, a bigger house, a backyard. A nicer, bigger, safer car.
It's just that my situation has changed.
[+] [-] JKCalhoun|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tonyedgecombe|4 years ago|reply
Which is appealing but they all come with a price. Part of that price might include longer hours, working a job you don't like or an extended commute. None of that is good for your relationship with your kids.
[+] [-] kiliantics|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BeFlatXIII|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] car|4 years ago|reply
If you have a functional kitchen and a home gym (or tennis rackets or cross-country skis), you might reduce your dependence on healthcare.
This part of the thesis is really twisted thinking. It exemplifies how healthcare is just an afterthought in certain places, until people become affected by the desolate condition of the US healthcare system themselves. I gather it's because in general healthy younger people don't think much about the ones that are disabled or have been hit with a health crisis (accident[0], cancer, psychosis). At that point the reflective reaction I see is to appeal to others (e.g. GoFundMe). I'd rather people think about and work towards having a health care system that shares the burden across the whole population.
Edit: Adding this for context [0]
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30058108
[+] [-] simonbarker87|4 years ago|reply
In some areas I would be considered Spartan and in others indulgent. The key is paying attention to what things/experiences make you happy and spend your time and money there, regardless of what other people think.
Getting rid of your stuff should only be a priority if it brings you some quality of life improvement - otherwise buy all the stuff you want.
[+] [-] koprulusector|4 years ago|reply
Further, the last decade I’ve spent a major part of my recreational time out with friends rather than sitting at home like Golem coveting his precious or Smaug content to be alone with my hoard of material possessions.
I guess, sure, if your life’s goal is to own a house in the suburbs and obtain the nuclear family with a spouse and 2.5 kids, where your neighbors measure your status based on your possessions, then this piece makes great points!
Otherwise, I call bullshit, because I’ve definitely made memories and stories I can look back at with more than fondness, that were amazing to experience, and just as fun to recount with friends now. I wouldn’t for a second trade those experiences for a new couch, TV, or sound system. IMO, OP is basing a lot of their opinions on relative uneventful life.
[+] [-] altacc|4 years ago|reply
"Buy experiences, not things" doesn't mean only spending money on experiences that leave no material effects, it means spending money enabling experiences rather than spending money that doesn't. There is no such thing as "thing-like experiences", there are experiences enabled by purchases. Merely purchasing amazing camping gear doesn't provide you an experience, but using it does and that's an experience you've spent money on, not a "thing-like experience". On the other hand, upgrading your phone one version is unlikely to enable the same increase in experiences.
[+] [-] jonathanstrange|4 years ago|reply
Otherwise it would be hard to explain the current "pro" audio plugin market, for example. Neither hobbyists nor professionals need hundreds of compressor and EQ plugins but companies have figured out that they will nevertheless buy them if the price hits a certain low sweet spot. Unless it becomes an addiction, I doubt this really makes them unhappy. It's mostly just a harmless "waste" of discretionary salary.
[+] [-] cableshaft|4 years ago|reply
Also, it really should be "buy neither". I'm trying to stop my bad buying habits this year, in part, because it's helping contribute negatively to climate change. Those games (or any good) have to be manufactured and transported, and use up precious resources we have on his planet.
But experiences (at least the ones most people think of when they say this, like long-distance travel) also contributes badly to climate change. Which is another thing I'm struggling with, because I've never really traveled outside the US (except a week in Canada, once), and I've been mostly stuck within a three state radius for the past two years. I've always valued other cultures and seeing the world, just didn't feel like I can afford to before, and now I have to feel guilty for wanting to do that while the climate change specter looms.
I may still let myself make a big trip or two at some point, as just watching other people do it on streams or whatever isn't quite the same, but my bucket list for travel was pretty long and it no longer really feels super ethical to burn a bunch of jet emissions just so I can see in person what the Angkor Wat ruins look like in Cambodia, as an example of what was on there.
There's probably lots to see closer them that people ignore because everyone keeps being encouraged to think big and grand with experiences. State parks can have some beauty in them as well, even if they're smaller and simpler, you don't always have to go to national parks or other countries to see nature. My wife and I did quite a few of those near us the past two years and there's still quite a few more we could explore within a two hour drive of us.
[+] [-] aaron_oxenrider|4 years ago|reply
Most of the things I own are to enable experiences. I enjoy kayaking and backpacking. Is my kayak a thing or is my kayaking an experience. I'd say it fits both.
[+] [-] jonathanstrange|4 years ago|reply
I sometimes even research things I don't really need at all just to find out what's the best one at a reasonable price. For example, I have pretty much the best metal pencil sharpener of the world attached to my table, use a mechanical keyboard, have a very neat monocular in my backback, have the optimal backpack, have a special sports fountain pen and the (for me) best pocket knife in my pocket, etc. Recently, I've bought inflatable solar-powered candle imitations that my girlfriend absolutely loves. I've even bought a printing adding machine, not the best but a fairly good one, and occasionally enjoy using it even though it's definitely the last thing I'd really need. It rattles in a pleasant way.
To cut a long story short, it seems obvious that life advice in both directions is somewhat shallow. Some people prefer to spend their money on traveling, others prefer things. Claiming that experiences are better sounds like a marketing ploy by companies who offer "vanity lifestyle products & experiences."
[+] [-] 3pt14159|4 years ago|reply
Ok so really what the original argument was saying wasn't the straw man of living like a stoic vs buying a better car or toaster. The original argument was taking time to experience the world is worth the cost compared to the alternative. That it's better to have a Honda instead of a Porsche if it means you had time to travel Europe and Africa for half a year instead.
And I mostly agree with that. I don't mind shelling out the dollars for stuff that really matters like my primary dev machine, or what have you, but I really don't need $500 sweaters, or a luxury car, even though I can afford it. The delta to my own enjoyment just isn't worth it compared to other priorities like travelling or helping someone out.
[0] e.g., horse plus cart is better than two horses or two carts.
[+] [-] throwawaylinux|4 years ago|reply
I do it a bit myself, but I'm not going to pretend I'm better than someone else becausethey wastefully buy different things while I wastefully got to different places.
[+] [-] baxuz|4 years ago|reply
This is a joke, right?
[+] [-] Eddy_Viscosity2|4 years ago|reply