The "Even Dirtier Secret", HN edition: devs who can't type, don't read books, can't understand LtU or git or BDD, get all their info from Stackoverflow. Oh, yeah, they're not in the top 99.999999%, so now way Joel will hire them.
It's nicely done!
I'm not sure that I like the fact that the text doesn't mean anything... I guess it's in purpose so that you have to look at the words and not type mechanically for words you know but at the same time, I spend a lot more time figuring out what is going on...
I second (or third now!) that I don't like the meaningless words. Makes it much harder to type them I reckon, and some of the words seem to be real words, but with missing letters, so you find yourself typing the real word, which is wrong!!
I started hunt and peck typing at 5 (Apple //c represent!), and had evolved to a four finger lazy-look typing method by 7th grade typing class. I didn't start actually typing without looking at the keyboard until I purchased a factory defect keyboard from a computer fair when I was in 9th grade. This keyboard had no lettering ink on any of the keys. I remember my mom being in disbelief that I could look at her and type something else quickly at the same time.
Best $10 I ever spent.
Because I learned to type this way I have rather unconventional / poor form. My hands rarely center properly on the home row, I tend to use my middle fingers for the upper inside letters, and I don't always use the same fingers for the same keys (I type the first "e" in "letters" with my middle finger and the second with the proper finger).
One other positive side effect of that keyboard while I was exploring UNIX was that there was no value in looking at punctuation either, so I learned to touch type all punctuation, not just the secretary subset, at the same time.
> Hell, if you're having trouble, just email me, and I'll give you a personalized pep talk. I can afford it. I type pretty fast. Plus your email will be really short.
I'm tempted to email him just to find out what Steve Yegge's idea of a "really short" email is.
Not looking at the keyboard as you type is important for secretaries who have to copy text off a hard copy. For a programmer I'd say it makes little difference.
But hey, don't let that get in the way of smug superiority.
Personal request: next time Steve posts, let's just assume the "long post is long lololol" angle has been thoroughly covered, and let's discuss the contents. If the contents do not merit discussion, let's ignore them.
I learned something from this article; I can't touch-type numbers. After reading that part, I moved over to a friendly unused xterm and tried to type 65536. My head immediately began to bend down to gape at the keys. I tried not to look, but I couldn't do it.
Interestingly, I can type the symbols on the numbers just fine. (hello "world"). $here @are &some #sigils!
I'm always a little surprised to find a programmer who can't type while looking at the screen. I never actually sat down and learned to touch type, it was a by-product of coding.
But this isn't just about programmers, you can see it in the movements of any expert.
Systems administrators know how to move around directories with minimal keystrokes - the characters seem to just fly by the screen. I know I'm in the presence of a good one when this happens.
A former colleague of mine proved that he'd spent many years in the trenches as a consultant through his mind-blowing ability to do excel. Any shortcut, he knew. He could set up a pivot table, create a LUT, denormalize data, simulate a query, set up scrolling, and automate charts in, like, 4 minutes. I could do this, but I'd have to hunt around the help, and it would take me a long time.
Good tennis racket stringers chat with you while they instinctively weave the crosses through the mains with a slight waving pattern that reduces friction and extends the life of the string job. They use the clamps and tensioner without really looking at it. I have my own machine and I can string a racket fine, but it takes me an hour and requires my full, fumbling focus - I certainly can't multi-task.
When a Judo expert falls backwards he/she just sort of rolls through it. No thought is necessary.
It goes on and on. Programmers type fast without thinking about it. It's one of the things they are simply able to do as the result of programming. I'm not saying it's critical, but it would be really odd to get good at programming without making this skill inate.
Hmmm. I want to hear from some great programmers who are often here on HN. Do you guys type quickly? Paul Graham and Patrick Collison, are you speed typists? How about Ryan Davis and Jey Kottalam? Suggest some more great hackers, too.
I can't speak for them, but I've been able to type at ~80WPM for 20 years, since about age 10. I took Pascal and C in college 12 years ago, but to this day I'm a borderline useless scripter.when tasks call for a bit of Perl, Ruby, automated bash, or whatever.
Not being able to touch type is not a bad thing; not being able to type fast is. I can't touch type and I used to be able to type 130+ wpm without errors. I can still average around 100 wpm.
Accoridng to Mythical Man-Month average programmer produces 2000 LOC per year. Other data I've seen backs this up. Typing speed is not really a problem.
Umm, nice rationalization. But that's 2000 lines of debugged, documented code. It takes a lot more typing than just 2000 x 80 characters. The article basically describes why.
Remember that the set of "any programmer" is pretty big. It probably happens by not spending much time programming. Or by not noticing your bad habits.
I think most "kids" today can type pretty well because it's essential for IM-ing. I know that's how I learned to type quickly. Older people might not do much real-time communication, so they might not know how slow their ad-hoc typing is.
Although I already had a computer I was taught to touch type "properly" on a typewriter. It really did take just a few weeks to get totally proficient and it's been handy ever since.
The only time I've managed to make a significant boost was when I bought a Das Keyboard. Not having any labels on my keys means I have learned to absolutely never peak at the keyboard. It's improved my speed overall, but especially with the number row.
I have known a lot of programmers who don't type fast. I don't think it's a massive impediment, but I do think there's a strong correlation between bad programming and lack of typing ability.
I don't think any of the people I personally know and consider uber programmers type really badly. Certainly could be though and I just haven't noticed.
"... Yeev noticed that one of the electives, surely placed there by mistake, was Typing. Like, on a typewriter ..."
What an elective? Mine was compulsory complete with manual typewriters and battle-axe teacher. One thing I do miss about those old clunkers was the solid feel the keys had. You had to learn to position your index fingers at 'F' and 'J' remember where each key was positioned and hit hard. So letters like 'P' and 'q' required a greater force than say 'v' or 'n' (because my index fingers are stronger than pinkies). Keyboards these days have no resistance so typing fast leads to random hits.
I have an ancient Northgate with delicious feel. It's huge, and heavy, with some kind of mechanical switches that snick into place in the coolest way when you press a key. Feels like an IBM Selectric typwriter, if you remember those.
I haven't used it in years, since I now use laptops exclusively. I can't bear to get rid of it, though.
Previously they also carried a "professional" model which featured blank keys. Not only was it "l33t", but it was supposed to improve your speed by forcing you to learn to touch type which of course is required for late night hacking sessions in the dark.
Finally, there is the classic carpal tunnel inducing IBM keyboard:
Its keys are wonderfully weighted, tactile without being obnoxiously loud, but it's not really practical these days as it doesn't have F keys and the ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdn set, and the arrows aren't in inverted-T form, which is annoying.
Otherwise I prefer laptop keyboards (50/50 between Dell's current-ish stuff and the traditional ThinkPad design). I'm more than happy to be more gentle in order to extend the life of my fingers and wrists.
Kinesis advantage pro. The keys are placed very well, and require little movement to register. A small speaker goes off when it registers the stroke, so you know when you can stop pressing.
I'm a two-fingers-and-a-thumb, look-at-the-keyboard, what's-the-home-row? typer, and I can still hit 70+ on a bad day. Still not sure what that has to do with 1) my ability to code, 2) my ability to communicate.
It's just an all-around upgrade to your personal ability. We all spend a lot of time at a computer. Why not try learning? The process of learning touch typing will make you better at two finger typing, if nothing else.
One of my co-workers types with his two pointer fingers and I'm sure he hits at least 80 wpm if not more. He looks at the keys on occasion, but he mostly does not need to. However, I get the impression his error rate is quite high.
All that being said, I think he could type even faster if he just bit the bullet and learned to touch type. This is why Steve is right. You might be a pretty fast typer already, but you can probably be a lot faster using all your fingers instead of just two.
Does anyone else type on QWERTY but never from home row? I get 115wpm but with a disastrous 96% accuracy. The upside is much better access to the number keys and punctuation. I once tried to switch to Colemak, but never managed to completely switch over. I think this was because my muscle memory of QWERTY in 8 different positions was too powerful to unlearn.
[+] [-] rtf|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gtani|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] projectileboy|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanielBMarkham|17 years ago|reply
I'm sure he had something else important to say.
Maybe?
[+] [-] caustic|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Timothee|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fendale|17 years ago|reply
I second (or third now!) that I don't like the meaningless words. Makes it much harder to type them I reckon, and some of the words seem to be real words, but with missing letters, so you find yourself typing the real word, which is wrong!!
[+] [-] jjames|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrsims|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gills|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iigs|17 years ago|reply
Best $10 I ever spent.
Because I learned to type this way I have rather unconventional / poor form. My hands rarely center properly on the home row, I tend to use my middle fingers for the upper inside letters, and I don't always use the same fingers for the same keys (I type the first "e" in "letters" with my middle finger and the second with the proper finger).
One other positive side effect of that keyboard while I was exploring UNIX was that there was no value in looking at punctuation either, so I learned to touch type all punctuation, not just the secretary subset, at the same time.
[+] [-] Xichekolas|17 years ago|reply
When I switched dvorak I figured I might as well do it right. As a side effect, my hands no longer hurt like they did with qwerty...
[+] [-] ken|17 years ago|reply
I'm tempted to email him just to find out what Steve Yegge's idea of a "really short" email is.
[+] [-] epe|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] henning|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|17 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] KiwiNige|17 years ago|reply
Edit: why is learning to type a dirty little secret?
[+] [-] johnyzee|17 years ago|reply
But hey, don't let that get in the way of smug superiority.
[+] [-] biohacker42|17 years ago|reply
I bet you'd be faster if you didn't need to.
[+] [-] iron_ball|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zandorg|17 years ago|reply
This is especially true with Lisp - you compact it down like one of those trash compactors.
[folklore.org]
[+] [-] jrockway|17 years ago|reply
Interestingly, I can type the symbols on the numbers just fine. (hello "world"). $here @are &some #sigils!
[+] [-] geebee|17 years ago|reply
But this isn't just about programmers, you can see it in the movements of any expert.
Systems administrators know how to move around directories with minimal keystrokes - the characters seem to just fly by the screen. I know I'm in the presence of a good one when this happens.
A former colleague of mine proved that he'd spent many years in the trenches as a consultant through his mind-blowing ability to do excel. Any shortcut, he knew. He could set up a pivot table, create a LUT, denormalize data, simulate a query, set up scrolling, and automate charts in, like, 4 minutes. I could do this, but I'd have to hunt around the help, and it would take me a long time.
Good tennis racket stringers chat with you while they instinctively weave the crosses through the mains with a slight waving pattern that reduces friction and extends the life of the string job. They use the clamps and tensioner without really looking at it. I have my own machine and I can string a racket fine, but it takes me an hour and requires my full, fumbling focus - I certainly can't multi-task.
When a Judo expert falls backwards he/she just sort of rolls through it. No thought is necessary.
It goes on and on. Programmers type fast without thinking about it. It's one of the things they are simply able to do as the result of programming. I'm not saying it's critical, but it would be really odd to get good at programming without making this skill inate.
[+] [-] phony_identity|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] khafra|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] burnout1540|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] prospero|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DenisM|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ojbyrne|17 years ago|reply
Plus he's not talking about "average."
[+] [-] mhartl|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrockway|17 years ago|reply
I think most "kids" today can type pretty well because it's essential for IM-ing. I know that's how I learned to type quickly. Older people might not do much real-time communication, so they might not know how slow their ad-hoc typing is.
[+] [-] staunch|17 years ago|reply
The only time I've managed to make a significant boost was when I bought a Das Keyboard. Not having any labels on my keys means I have learned to absolutely never peak at the keyboard. It's improved my speed overall, but especially with the number row.
I have known a lot of programmers who don't type fast. I don't think it's a massive impediment, but I do think there's a strong correlation between bad programming and lack of typing ability.
I don't think any of the people I personally know and consider uber programmers type really badly. Certainly could be though and I just haven't noticed.
[+] [-] bootload|17 years ago|reply
What an elective? Mine was compulsory complete with manual typewriters and battle-axe teacher. One thing I do miss about those old clunkers was the solid feel the keys had. You had to learn to position your index fingers at 'F' and 'J' remember where each key was positioned and hit hard. So letters like 'P' and 'q' required a greater force than say 'v' or 'n' (because my index fingers are stronger than pinkies). Keyboards these days have no resistance so typing fast leads to random hits.
What's the most solid keyboard you have used?
[+] [-] phr|17 years ago|reply
I haven't used it in years, since I now use laptops exclusively. I can't bear to get rid of it, though.
[+] [-] kqr2|17 years ago|reply
http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeylit1.html
Previously they also carried a "professional" model which featured blank keys. Not only was it "l33t", but it was supposed to improve your speed by forcing you to learn to touch type which of course is required for late night hacking sessions in the dark.
Finally, there is the classic carpal tunnel inducing IBM keyboard:
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.html
[+] [-] iigs|17 years ago|reply
My favorite keyboard of all time is: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/photos/Apple_IIgs_Keyboa...
Its keys are wonderfully weighted, tactile without being obnoxiously loud, but it's not really practical these days as it doesn't have F keys and the ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdn set, and the arrows aren't in inverted-T form, which is annoying.
Otherwise I prefer laptop keyboards (50/50 between Dell's current-ish stuff and the traditional ThinkPad design). I'm more than happy to be more gentle in order to extend the life of my fingers and wrists.
[+] [-] lallysingh|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aston|17 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rms|17 years ago|reply
http://www.freetypinggame.net/ http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3552142/Typing_of_the_Dead
[+] [-] cbetz|17 years ago|reply
All that being said, I think he could type even faster if he just bit the bullet and learned to touch type. This is why Steve is right. You might be a pretty fast typer already, but you can probably be a lot faster using all your fingers instead of just two.
[+] [-] bitdiddle|17 years ago|reply
I know, I can hear the complaints about the lack of good libraries...
[+] [-] ivank|17 years ago|reply