Ask HN: Neurodiversity/ADHD Friendly Companies

[adhd_thraway]

I'm ~40yo semi-successful full-stack engineer/hacker who had been recently diagnosed with ADHD (after more than decade of self-seeking journey and introspection). During my diagnosis I learned that ADHD is persistent in 5-7% in general population with some specialist speculating it's more common in IT due to hypnotizing effect of computers. I know I'm not alone with this :)

In hindsight ADHD helped me to get into current position. Being constantly bored, high energy, positive-minded solution and tool seeker is often good thing in times of crisis. When things go stale and there are no things to fix but only boring forms remains it's usually mortal battle with burnout, procrastination, self-doubt. One which usually ends with me quitting due to burnout or - rarely - getting kicked off because the next more boring thing took longer than anticipated.

Right now I'm on hiatus since couple last couple of weeks, but lack of direction and purpose is awful and with every morning I feel fires of restlessness growing.

Today I read recruitment ad about neurodiversity program which - supposedly - caters people with different neurodivergencies. Those were US on-site positions though and I'm in EU.

So getting to the point: Do you know / can recommend companies with neurodiversity programs?

For myself obviously I'm looking for remote or EU companies (with relocation) but even if you know something that's not in the region please feel free to contribute - maybe someone else looking will make use of it.

Obvious throwaway. Some half-truths embedded.

[jacek]

I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in my thirties and I have been taking medication for the last two years. I am also in EU.

I would recommend two things (YMMV). First, use ADHD to your advantage. People with ADHD have tendency to be inquisitive, but easily bored. Because of this I have become a jack of all trades. Although I have my specialty (ML), employers really appreciate that I also able to do Linux administration, create a web app and write a paper.

The second thing would be going freelance. I've done that last year, and it has been a blessing so far. I learned many new skills in new industries. Meeting new people and learning from them has been a valuable experience. The projects can be short enough not to get bored there. As a solid full-stack engineer you can earn better money, and have longer breaks in between.

[Mockapapella]

> First, use ADHD to your advantage.

Agree with this 100%. While I've never been formally diagnosed (and have no intention to be), I definitely have some tendencies that align with people who have been formally diagnosed with ADHD. The way I see it, this is a part of me anyways, so I might as well lean into it and milk it for all it's worth, which has led to me being in a similar "jack-of-all-trades" position. If anything, I view it as a tremendous advantage being able to dive into new projects/topics, learn what's interesting about them, then move onto the next shiny thing that catches my eye. With each new thing I get into, I'm able to pull from a vast trove of knowledge spanning many different subjects, which lets me think about old problems in new ways.

Even so, I can see something like ADHD being an issue for people who aren't necessarily driven to succeed beyond a baseline, and are just interested in having a more structured life.

[carlmr]

Regarding freelancing, how do you deal with the multitasking related to getting the next project while working on the current project? Did you outsource this? The organizational work, the back and forth, the scheduling of interviews, etc. It seems like something that's very difficult to do with AD(H)D.

[mijoharas]

Out of interest, how did you get into your freelancing? how did you start off? Do you work with a company or agency or something?

[ojkelly]

It’s worth everyone knowing that there is a high proportion of neurodiverse people in our industry, relative to other industries and the general population.

The 2021 Stack Overflow Survey [0] puts ADHD at 8.51% (double the rate in the US [1]), and autism at 3.7% (about 1% globally [2]).

The point here is that, you all already work with people who have ADHD or are autistic. If your company isn’t doing right to retain us, your going to lose talent to those who do.

Small accommodations can go a very long way. Accomodations are personal, not everyone needs the same thing.

For example, I start my day at 10am. Easily managed accommodation, and now I get significantly better sleep. Everyone wins.

OP, I’d love to call out specific companies that are good at this, but I don’t really know.

[0] stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demographics-m [1] https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/attention-deficit... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html

[benjaminsuch]

I would be cautious about what people say in the survey on Stack Overflow. How many of those who claim to have ADHD or Autism have an actual diagnosis of those from a professional?

[dgellow]

Clickable link for stackoverflow survey: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-demog...

[sosuke]

Is there a correlation between ADHD and doing better with a late start?

[newaccount74]

I wonder why ADHD gets singled out so much. If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people. Eg. not being reprimanded for being late when it has no consequences would help everyone. Good calendar software also helps everyone.

There are lots of people who are struggling with the demands of the workplace -- in fact, I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something.

I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" to make their workplaces less toxic.

Maybe I'm missing something, but are there any specific affordances for Neurodiverse people that wouldn't also help everyone else?

[galoisgirl]

> Good calendar software also helps everyone.

Tell a neurotypical to use a calendar, and they'll just do it.

Tell someone with ADHD to use a calendar, and they'll spend 4 hours shopping for the perfect one, then forget to check it, forget to put things in it, forget to carry it with them etc. You'll say "why can't you just keep a stupid calendar" and they'll say "the calendar doesn't work".

"Use a calendar" is a piece of advice that works for neurotypicals, but not for people with ADHD.

Conversely, "have a fidget toy for every single conversation you have with anyone ever" will probably not help a neurotypical person much, yet that's something I'd advise to anyone with ADHD. You guys also probably don't need a physical list of things to do for fun, because you have brains good enough to remember. Ask me what I like to do in my spare time and I'll be like "hmmmm what even is time?".

I find Nir Eyal has tons of great advice that benefits both camps.

[tailspin2019]

> I'm not sure I know anyone who doesn't struggle with something.

It's always a matter of degree. It's completely true that to be human, is to struggle. Life is a struggle. Most people get sad at times in their lives, many people get depressed too. Many people are disorganised. And very many people, more than ever, experience trouble focussing and concentrating at times.

But when that struggle becomes a defining and pervasive feature of your life, to the point that it's unshakable. Perhaps it affects your relationships. Maybe makes it difficult to hold down a job... That's where you start to fall under the diagnostic criteria for a long-term "condition" as opposed to just the common condition that we all share of simply being human.

And that's where workplace support of this kind may go from useful to necessary. From "makes my job easier" to "makes it possible for me to hold a job at all".

I think it's important to recognise the struggle that everyone has, as part of being human, but it's important not to overlook the significant additional struggle that people with a diagnosed condition or "neurodiversity" experience on top of this.

[lolinder]

> If I look at the suggestions that would help people with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help lots of people.

This is why we always emphasize that accessibility is for everyone, not just people with disabilities. The primary difference is that those with formal disabilities spend a much greater percentage of their time hurt by inaccessibility.

The modern workplace isn't very human-friendly, but neurotypical people can and do work around the problems, so businesses don't adjust. Focusing on ADHD gives businesses a concrete example of people they'd like to retain who truly can't be productive in the current environment, so it's more likely to trigger actual change.

[anonymoushn]

At an exit interview with my favorite employer so far, the HR person asked "What would you change about $company?" and I asked for walls. Walls are especially great for ADHD people compared to open-plan offices in which one must debug nginx internals while listening to sales-related conversations, but the literature suggests that the benefits of walls accrue to everyone.

[ekanes]

You’re right, but this is always the way. Accommodating people with differing needs/sensitivities usually helps everyone. non-fluorescent lighting, reduced noise, etc. The majority of people are affected by something but don’t realize it. If you fix it for more sensitive people you fix it for everyone.

[novok]

ADHD people:

- loose track of things more than the typical person

- get distracted by new things more than the average person

- have significantly higher openness to experience

- tend to forget more things

- are more impulsive

So it's basically having an extra management structure or labor that is willing to put in extra time to mitigate the issue that come up with this, and to harness the benefits of them too.

[JohnBooty]

You make a lot of great points.

I totally agree: the things that help neurodiverse folks (whether we're talking about tangible affordances, or just a general sense of inclusion and empathy) are generally also the things that would help literally anybody.

    If I look at the suggestions that would help people 
    with ADHD, then I see suggestions that would help 
    lots of people

One thing to consider is that affordances that are helpful for everybody may be absolutely essential for neurodiverse folks.

Think of physical differences: a wheelchair ramp can be useful for lots of people, but for some people it's a real necessity.

    I wonder why employers need a "Neurodiversity program" 
    to make their workplaces less toxic.

I'm not sure it's reasonable, or even humanly possible, for employers to intuitively know all the ways they might help every possible employee perform their best.

So it's the kind of thing you want to formalize a bit. Because, I mean, what is a "program?" It's just a formal recognition that this is an ongoing effort, not a one-time thing.

[krono]

ADHD brains are physically incapable of doing these things without assistance on a neurological/biochemical level.

It's not much different to elevators being pretty convenient for everyone, but an absolute necessity to the wheelchair-bound.

Edit: better fitting analogy.

[karpierz]

I think this is generally true, but it's a matter of magnitude. For example, a public transit program helps everyone in the neighbourhood, but especially helps those who can't afford to drive. So when someone says "hey, we should help low-income people by building a subway", they're not saying that it'll only help low-income folks, but that it'll especially help low income folks.

The point of the "neurodiversity program" is to focus on avoidable practices which heavily impact certain groups of people. Those practices might also impact other people, but not to such a debilitating extent.

[pdrbrtt]

Hello There! Former ADHD bro here.

I was diagnosed with ADHD 10 months ago. At that time my life was a BIG BLOB of MESS and CHAOS.

I started attending therapy sessions with a really good Therapist once a week since then.

After 6 months, I had sense of every way ADHD was affecting my life, but couldn't figure out how to overcome the symptoms by myself.

My therapist recommended a psychiatrist, which prescribed Vyvanse 30mg (ADHD med), i started taking it 3 months ago.

It changed everything. I got promoted on my current job, started a post-grad on Data Engineering at a top University here in Brazil. It made me build structures in my life, organize it's mess, gave me focus and HOPE. Productivity at it's best.

I can't think how I could overcome my ADHD without my Therapist and meds.

Before seeking a company that "fits your problems" i recommend you trying these first:

1. go to a really good therapist 2. Make sense on how your ADHD condition affects you 3. Try to overcome it 4. Go for meds if needed (LAST RESOURCE) 5. Keep trying

Don't mix up your ADHD anxiety with depression, it is the worst loophole to dive in.

Hope you find it all out

[jstrodd]

Reading your comment makes me so nervous. I could have written it myself when I was in college. Back then, ADHD meds transformed my life for the better, at least during the first couple years. It was great! A pill solved all of my problems. But then, very slowly, over the course of years, I developed a much worse set of problems. Now, ten years later, I'm struggling with an addiction that affects every aspect of my life. I'm less productive than I was before I ever took meds. I've lost friends and become socially isolated. I fear that my executive function is permanently damaged.

Meds don't even make me productive anymore, they just keep the withdrawal at bay. And the withdrawal is so bad that I can't even function enough to do a time sheet right for at least a week. I can't quit my meds without great difficulty because there is simply no way for me to do that while maintaining employment. I have a family to support, so I'm trapped using this drug that has been devastating to my life in a lot of ways I'd rather not share.

Before I took meds, I was a little bit of an under-achiever and just a typical ADHD sufferer. But I was able to function and get by. Now, I'm barely able to function, and my life feels like it's constantly on the edge of falling apart due to what has become total dependency on the drug. The person I was back then is gone.

Very little research has been done on the long-term effects of prescription stimulant use. I can't say you'll end up like me, but just know that there is a large and growing community of people like me who desperately wish they never took this drug.

[halkony]

I got an ADHD diagnosis at 25. Didn't really surprise me, but I went to see a physician with the intent purpose of getting meds to help me. I told the truth and was able to get a Vyvanse script pretty easily.

Interestingly, I didn't take the meds for very long, despite their more addictive qualities. About a year later, I had an emotional epiphany at a friend's wedding that cured the leftovers of my depression. It really rocked me to my core. Now my body experiences the world in a way I didn't know was possible.

I read in passing somewhere that ~35% of ADHD patients that take Adderall report therapeutic effects (like I had), but I don't recall the source. If anyone knew more about that I'd be interested to hear it.

[tailspin2019]

Congratulations on your progress and thanks for sharing your story. I think I'm a few steps behind you on this journey and it's great to hear how you've found a treatment program that works for you!

[thebigspacefuck]

Is your vyvanse like $300 a month? I was taking it and it helped with a lot of things but I stopped because it was so expensive. Therapy was expensive too

[anonymoushn]

Eating stimulants should be the first thing on the list, given that the condition is likely to prevent people from progressing through lists.

[jstx1]

> Do you know / can recommend companies with neurodiversity programs?

It's very easy for companies to set up something like this for the sake of appearances, I would advise against selecting your employer based on this.

[redisman]

The kind of company that sets up a neurodiversity program will also not be the kind of company OP is describing he likes. Big, slow, rich companies can do stuff like that but the development work will be more bureaucratic. Small startups have you wear many hats and always put out fires and cobble things together to a solution that’s fast and kind of works. But those companies will never invest heavily into HR initiatives until they have like 1000 people.

[adhd_thraway]

Absolutely true, yet then at least I would feel at ease with myself if we agree to the terms. All cards on the table and I won't have to feel bad about myself because I procrastinated on filling 37.12 .xlsx files with the detailed diary about my work.

[brailsafe]

You might enjoy reading through similar question I asked a few years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21716306 Lots of thoughtful responses.

Though people seem to have decent feedback, I'd be somewhat skeptical of any advice that hasn't been tested for at least a year and seems very confident. My problem is basically that I can last (for the exact same reasons as you) for about 6 months on any given project, before being burnt out or let go because my productivity grinds to untenable levels with a sufficiently unstimulating or untenable task list. I've been on medication for 3 years. It helps to a point to get through those patches, but you have to be consistent, and if you fuck up your sleep or can't get enough exercise, it can all go south. In my experience, I've only really been successful with a lot of autonomy and heterogeneous problems to solve.

[raptorraver]

Also my question few years back had good answers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19989627

I'm currently transitioning from building the MVP for a startup to freelancing. I had pretty great 1.5 years (well, last half years not so...) but had a severe burn out and decided it's time to move on. The OP's story was so relatable to me.

[throwaway6532]

Well... I work at a company that makes a bunch of noise about neurodiversity and my honest opinion is it's been one of the worst experiences of my life due to certain elements of the structure/culture. I don't think it has anything to do with whether they are big on neurodiversity or not, just that it's no guarantee that you're going to be better off at a company that is. Us ADHDers are incredibly sensitive to the environment and if the environment is wrong then things don't go well for us. You need to optimize for environments in which you personally function well and not environments that virtue signal about neurodiversity.

[sjg007]

Since you have a diagnosis you should find some cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and medications specific for ADHD. The meds will help you focus in the short term and the CBT will help you develop cognitive and behavioral tools to help you manage your ADHD for the long term.

One cognitive approach is to become mindful and curious about what triggers your ADHD. Are there any patterns or habits? What activities do you engage in when you feel bored with a task? ADHD is executive brain dysfunction so what you really need to do is engage/train your executive function skillset and build up your resilience for longer term rewards or to devalue the reward of task switching. Some people try to build structure into their environments so that they don't have to think about it.

So learn about ADHD and learn about what you can do to help yourself. That's the ultimate reward. Your ADHD makes you naturally creative etc... which is a valued skill.

In some sense ADHDers live in the future which is great but you still have to get things done. And accomplishment is the ultimate reward.

https://www.additudemag.com/brain-stimulation-and-adhd-cravi...

https://www.additudemag.com/what-is-executive-function-disor...

[krono]

No one wanted me and my ADHD and so I went out on my own. Now running a decently successful software/consultancy firm (not funded and not a single loan, I'm proud to say - edit: as in "told you I had it in me").

Of course this isn't an option for everyone, but starting your own business might be worth considering.

[annie_muss]

As a counterpoint: I also have ADHD and went out on my own. Without oversight and managing I performed absolutely terribly. The company I started produced nothing and I ended up worse off after the experience.

If you think starting a company/freelancing is right for you, by all means do it. But if you have had multiple failed jobs already because of your ADHD then think long and hard about giving yourself a job that arguably requires more executive function than a regular day job.

[notRobot]

As a business owner with ADHD - what are you thoughts on hiring people who also have the condition? Are you open to making the workplace more neurodivergent-friendly?

[simplyinfinity]

I'm not diagnosed with ADHD myself, in fact today is my first day of ADHD eval by a doctor. What you write is exactly how experience work.

One thing that came to mind is contract/freelance work. Go to a contracting agancy and tell them you want to work on 3-6 month contracts. I'm currently in the process of doing this. I hope few things come out of this.

1) my brain stays engaged

2) my happniess increases

3) my savings & free time grow ( as contractors get paid a bit more ) and can afford more time off between projects

[efficientsticks]

Related question: I think I’d really like to work part-time so I can properly multi task on my personal projects and for-money work, rather than have this all-or-nothing choice every 3+ months. Do you have any advice you could give me about that?

[adhd_thraway]

Without exposing myself too much that's what I'm doing right now. But while the contracting agency I work for is really great but it's also very massive and I feel very desolated, especially since my last contract was the "build me the forms" which drained the soul out of me.

[seba_dos1]

> 3) my savings & free time grow ( as contractors get paid a bit more ) and can afford more time off between projects

This is the part that didn't work so well in my experience. With each project I was at first in "working" mode, then in "time off" mode (which usually meant working on personal stuff for free), and then suddenly in "need to find a new paying project asap" panic mode when the savings were running out. With each next project my financial situation had to be worse in order to successfully trigger panic mode, so I quickly started to look for something longer-term instead.

[pliptvo]

This sounds like a pretty good strategy for me too. I'm completely ignorant about consulting agencies though - I assume there good ones, bad ones, etc? Can anyone recommend ones in the UK?

[gyulai]

If there's a program to create work environments for people who experience mortal battles with burnout, procrastination and self-doubt when things are stale and there's nothing to do but boring forms, then that sounds like something I'd quite like to get into myself, even without having ADHD.

[adhd_thraway]

It's quite interesting, but I believe that procrastination and burnout are rather obvious signs of ADHD and if you experience this you should verify this.

I'm a huge mental health advocate and I've been such for years (I worked with a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists when doing deep interpersonal training for business purposes and I built a lot of trust toward field) and I've been working constantly with therapists, have friends who are psychiatrists etc.

Yet no one, at any point suggested this might be ADHD because:

- ADHD has a lot of bad press (as something that is result of bad parenthood - which is false, that's genetics)

- ADHD in adults is somewhat new (where I live there all the meds are prescription only for children with note that they shouldn't be used for adults)

- ADHD adults are either successful (because they overcame hardships and are perceived as very interesting people in general) so they don't seek help or very miserable (dropping jobs, partners etc.) - they can't afford diagnosis and treatment

- ADHD in women is severely underdiagnosed (because it's attributed to hormonal mood swings)

- ADHD is often used as a joke, so people treat it as joke

- ADHD often gives symptoms that might be diagnosed as substance addiction, bi-polar personality, neuroticism, anger issues etc., people treat this for years and it doesn't help

- If you get in the wrong basket it's really hard to get out of it (I was working with different set of issues)

And that was for more then a decade. I decided to diagnose myself with specialist only after lately I couldn't focus on anything absolutely at all. I had weeks were I didn't do anything I really wanted - that wasn't normal and I went to a huge stretch to find out what that was.

[car]

Not applicable to ADHD, but for Autism spectrum there is Specialisterne, a danish foundation that works with employers.

International: https://www.specialisterne.com/

US: https://www.us.specialisterne.com/

Specialisterne Foundation is an international, award winning social enterprise setting the “gold standard” for neurodiversity employment. Specialisterne was founded in 2004 by Thorkil Sonne after Sonne’s young son was diagnosed with the disorder, when he realized we should focus on the ability of neurodiversity: attention to detail, high accuracy, innovative thinking, loyalty and honesty rather than the “disability”.

[pliptvo]

I literally just off the phone to my GP trying to get a referral for an adult ADHD diagnosis.

She basically said, there's a massive backlog and underfunding of the service, and instead of her referring me to the adult ADHD and autism psychology services directly I should approach a more generic NHS Adult Mental Health service and try to get them to refer me for a diagnosis, or write a letter asking her to. Just seems like a bit of a ringmarole.

She also said that the NHS wouldn't recognise a private diagnosis as they have a financial incentive to lean towards positive diagnoses, and so the NHS wouldn't foot the bill for eg any ADHD meds that would ensue from it.

Is this the experience other people have had, especially in the UK?

[cakemedia]

UK here. Your GP is right about the massive backlog in mental health referrals (2+ years in my area) but wrong about prescription charges & the NHS recognising a diagnosis from a private psychiatrist.

Because of that huge backlog I went for a private diagnosis & prescription and then had that prescription transferred to my local GP under what's known as a 'Shared Care Agreement', so my scrip cost ~£110 per year (buy a Prescription Prepayment Certificate or 'season pass').

I know people who've managed to circumvent the waiting list (and private fees) using 'Right to choose' but I understand that can vary depending on your local health authority. Certainly worth exploring though.

[tailspin2019]

> She also said that the NHS wouldn't recognise a private diagnosis as they have a financial incentive to lean towards positive diagnoses, and so the NHS wouldn't foot the bill for eg any ADHD meds that would ensue from it.

I'm in the UK and this is not my experience so far.

You do need to be careful about private diagnosis and the handoff to NHS for treatment - it's true that it's not guaranteed that a private diagnosis will be accepted by the NHS to pick up treatment, but in my experience it's not the case that they will totally refuse to recognise a private diagnosis as you've been told. That may just be the position of the individual you spoke to, rather than a reflection of what you'd find across the board in the UK.

If you go the private route, it will likely help if the private practitioner is also a registered/practicing NHS doctor. If you're considering this, it may be worth speaking to the practitioner about the process for handover of care to the NHS - which they should be able to clarify for you before you spend any money with them!

[dafman]

I was referred by my GP over a year ago for an adult ADHD diagnosis. I used the NHS Right To Choose so that I could use a private clinic, however even with them the wait has been a year and they're saying the earliest I'm going to be seen is October. My GP has contacted me to say there's a new service they're starting soon and that I've been referred there too, but they couldn't tell me how long the wait would be - basically they said to go with whichever one is available first.

If you can get a referral from your doctor, I would have a look at Right To Choose and go with someone private like Psychiatry UK as you shouldn't have to pay, the NHS will take the cost of that. (Also a note that paying them money doesn't get you seen any quicker, I've tried asking)

[nvarsj]

In my experience, the NHS will only diagnose severe cases of ADHD in children. Everything else is a struggle, like most mental health services on the NHS unfortunately. I think the best option is to get a private diagnosis - I am considering this myself actually.

[geden]

We got a private diagnosis for my son (to save potentially a year waiting) and that was recognised by the NHS paediatrician.

Horrible experience with his school though, that’s another story!

[michealr]

Like others I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, 31, 10 months ago and I have been taking medication since then. I am also in EU.

Nothing major to add, since there are some good comments from other commentators. Retrospectively I have realised ADHD has been perhaps an advantage in some areas. But additionally an absolute self sabatoge generating machine for the seemingly simplest of things.

Currently near the end my contract, being thinking more about the future. Full stack dev too. If you ever just want to chat and share stories of ridiculous periods procrastination, self doubt and future plans I'm always willing to chat.

I know speaking things out loud for me has lifted the veil of self doubt that can descend upon one after a bout of ill directed attention.

[halkony]

I was diagnosed at 25, about a year ago. I relate to the comment about ADHD being an advantage. I've often thought my brain is well suited to the information age. My home reflects this, I keep a lot of things in plain sight that stimulate my curiosity.

We live in times of unprecedented peace and prosperity, and rather than seeing my wiring as a liability, I see it is a competitive advantage. I may not have all the same strengths, but the ones I have can be very well leveraged.

[hatware]

Can you share what it was like to start medication?

[giantg2]

My company says it is, but I won't list it here - it's a lie. They talk a big game, then can't answer questions. Like advertising that they are partnering with a neurodiversity contracting agency, then not being able to answer if there are resources for employees who are neurodiverse. Should be a pretty easy question to answer - yes, here they are; or no.

[NalNezumi]

Have you considered consulting? While most typical friends of mine don't like consulting gig and only start there to get connections, I know some ADHD tendency people to do quite well in consulting. If you get bored, you can always look for another project. (some of the people I know even started their own consulting after creating their own network)

[omgitsabird]

This is interesting.

What are you looking for specifically? What does a neurodiversity program look like at a company? What, to you, makes a company neurodiversity-friendly?

[adhd_thraway]

If I'm to be 100% honest - I have no idea and thus I'm looking slightly to stand on the shoulders of the giants, who most likely know better than I do. Neurodiversity is... diverse. I could probably write a book about my experiences and they wouldn't match the next person with ADHD (at least not completely).

Describing the "perfect" organization for me that would probably be company that allowed me to switch between projects and technologies quickly while having "cleanup crew" in form of QA or an introvert who would be happy when not bothered.

The best employers/clients I ever had were the ones who had the silent "I sit and cut all the loose things" type of person, that allowed us to have perfect synergy, as I was frontman dealing with meetings, arguing on architecture doing the high-level designs and they were working on things that I missed (and there were plenty). I always - however - made sure they got recognition, both directly (assuring that if it wasn't for them I would progress at all) and in team environment.

Thus I think that if someone would be able to recognize traits that come with ADHD they would both help me feel better about stuff and could also juice more out of me (which I personally love, since I thrive in hard, legacy code with hundreds of engineering and business problems and IT is something I choose very consciously). This also comes with the fact, that someone has to recognize downtime and help me manage it, as ADHD is prone to obsessions and burnout, thus I quite often end up working 12h at 8h job while forgetting to go for lunch.

In summary - while I don't know it's either company that knows what they're doing and have a specialists for that, or company that would like to work with ADHD people.

[novok]

I've actually moved into management because it's very on-demand in many ways, which means I don't need as much self motivation and deep focus as an engineer. People I have to see in meetings are expecting me and the scope and diversity of stuff I work on is significantly increased. People would think it's the other way around as a manager, but it's not as much as you think. I still rely on writing a lot of things down to keep myself structured and make plans too. So far my reports and my manager are pretty happy with me as far as I can tell.

Also going into therapy and getting meds will also help you a bunch. I think that will be more effective than necessarily trying to find the right kind of company. Try looking at this guide about adderal by a psychiatrist: https://lorienpsych.com/2020/10/30/adderall/

[ChrisMarshallNY]

Good luck. I’d have to consider whether or not a company that used it as an actual hiring criteria was doing me a favor, though.

First, in the US, I’m not exactly sure it would be legal. We have the ADA, which basically states that we shouldn’t use what are considered “disabilities,” as a negative. Not sure what it says for positive.

I’m not sure about the EU, but, from my experience, European nations tend to have even stricter rules than the US.

In my case, my own neurodiversity has been a real asset. It’s made me an excellent programmer, and has certainly been key to my basic success.

I was a manager, for 25 years. That’s fairly unusual for aspies, as “people skills” are not often our strong suit.

Which brings me to the work environment. If the company has a management career path that includes promoting aspies into management, it may be great, as I think that it’s important that managers have empathy for their employees, but it might also be a difficult place to work, as we don’t always make the best managers (I feel as if I was an exception, but there were some “out of band” factors in my personal development, that probably made a huge difference –but that’s a story for another day).

The other possibility, is that the managers are all neurotypical, which makes me wonder about the career path.

In my experience, I started at my last company, on the same exact day, as another engineer, who was almost Central Casting for “aspie coder” (I’m a bit “dorky,” but it’s not as obvious, for me). We worked together for 27 years, until they finally closed down our department. For most of that time, I was his boss.

I have no problem admitting that he’s a far better coder and tactician than I ever was, but I have my doubts that he would have been as good a manager. On the other hand, I was pretty much a perfect manager for him, and he thrived in the department. He is now working for a well-known European megacorp, and I hope that they give him the space he needs to work. He’s an amazing engineer, and it was an honor to work with him.

[goodreadthanks]

A few years back I stumbled on a good article that someone had written regarding ADHD: https://gekk.info/articles/adhd.html

I have since used it a few times as a tool to help people to better understand me and my quirks, I can say that it has helped in this regard and have often found that people tend to be slightly more conscious/considerate after reading about the struggles that people with ADHD have to face on a daily basis. It’s not that I want sympathy, it’s just that some people truly just do not understand that the reasons why things can be like this, yes they can take it as lazy, tardiness, my being uninterested or just generally unmotivated or side tracked but the reality of the matter is that these are aspects that I still struggle with on a daily basis and I don’t feel like I could ever reach a point where I have defeated them. So the understanding on their part does go a long way in helping me to feel better about myself and in turn, more capable of doing a good job. That’s what counts to them?

I would suggest that you give the article a read through too, or anyone who is wondering if they perhaps fall somewhere within this spectrum as it may help them to better understand themselves too.

I can recommend consulting if you have a good handle on your ability to keep yourself motivated over the long term, that you can communicate your position well and have the ability, to some degree to meet practical deadlines.

If you do not have a handle on things like this, stop to think first at the amount of damage you could do to a business by becoming a consultant and working for them because you need to be a strong person to pull that off for many, many years running.

Personally and although experience has helped to improve on these aspects, I see them as fundamental flaws that I have little control over even on the best of days. In reality what I need too, is a good crew that can help to keep me on track or simply patch up the stuff that I have since left behind. That and no projects that last for more than a few months :-)

Best of luck in life to you all!

[Irongirl1]

This one is fully remote: https://www.fastcompany.com/90339945/75-of-staff-at-this-suc...

This one is not and is based in California, but I'd still keep an eye on them in case they decide to add remote positions: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/02/21/magazine/auti...

[hazmazlaz]

ADHD is recognized as a disability that employers are required to make accommodations for under the ADA (in the US). If you disclose your ADHD diagnosis to your employer, they are required to take reasonable measures to enable you to do your job. I have not gone through this process myself however, so I cannot vouch for how it would go for anyone else and YMMV. Here's a resource to explore this option further:

https://chadd.org/adhd-weekly/asking-for-workplace-accommoda...

[me_me_mu_mu]

Sorry not fully related to your question, but I've been asked a couple times in the past whether I've got ADHD because I'm constantly humming or tapping my desk while I multi task on 4 things, or when its time to work on new projects I just go 100% beast for a day or few days, getting a lot done, and then just crashing (sometimes for a whole week) because I can't focus on anything. Do I just ask a doctor to test me? How do I even approach this

[adhd_thraway]

Yes - please don't self diagnose.

ADHD in adults is somewhat new and some specialist either don't know or downplay it so keep that in mind. I'd suggest getting to the ADHD Adult specialist/clinic in the area. Depending on the country it might take short or long time to get diagnosed (for myself it took around 6 weekly 1.5h meetings, tests and family interviews), but I know this might vary depending on where you live.

[pliptvo]

I'd suggest having a look at the self screening tool on adhduk, which gives you an indication of whether you have adhd symptoms. If so, it might make sense to pursue a formal evaluation and diagnosis.

The tool's been put together with the WHO:

https://adhduk.co.uk/adult-adhd-screening-survey/

[dijit]

I'm not sure if we fit your description but our "core hours" are 10-16, which is a bit different from other companies in the industry: and there's a lot more focus on getting tasks done vs being in the office with your arse in the seat (though how much of that is COVID? unsure, but the company culture is affected a lot by how we worked during the pandemic as this is when most people got onboarded- we more than quadrupled in size since the start of the pandemic).

I believe I have ADHD, I'm seeking a diagnosis (or at the very least for someone to confirm that I'm just extremely lazy), which in Sweden is actually very difficult, and so far this has been the best company to work for.

That said: I personally have a lot of responsibility, and with responsibility comes more "free reign" on what needs to happen -- this is definitely where I lack the focus to understand what needs to happen next as I get paralysed when there's equally important tasks.. This is not the case for the majority of my company though.

We're hiring. https://career.sharkmob.com

[EduardoBautista]

6 hours for core hours? That’s practically no flexibility at all.

[gkop]

Aside, every Bay Area software team I’ve been on has core hours beginning at 10am.

[MichaelRazum]

I think the question has not much to do with ADHD. A lot of people hate boring stupid tasks. Let's say maybe more than 50%. Maybe they can deal with it better then someone with ADHD.

Anyway. What you are looking for might be a consultant position, or working in a startup. By the way in my opinion, anything you do will have a bit of boring/unpleasant stuff.

[herbst]

Have you considered doing your own thing? Whatever it is you are best at or you enjoy doing most.

Setting my own scopes and work hours really really helped to get things done. Allowing myself to procastinate for weeks if necessary makes sure one day I will be full of energy for whatever project is waiting for me.

I always struggled in work environments because of imposter syndrome, stress, sometimes a endless cycle of tiredness because I couldn't get enough sleep but a job requires to wake up early.

I sometimes look for remote jobs, but daily standup meetings, fixed online times and stuff like this simply are requiring to much structure I don't, and don't want to, have.

Before I actually quit the thing that helped me most was working less. By only doing a 4 days week I somehow was able to focus way better and enjoy work a lot more. I came late on Monday and took a joker afternoon when I wanted to every week. Still the best work/life balance I ever had in a job

[hmurraydavis]

About 20% of our team has ADHD and are thriving. We found this out when trying to do some internal usability testing on our UI. We don't explicitly target being ADHD friendly, but actively endeavor to be a good employer for all sorts of neurodiversity. We view people as individuals and manage and allocate tasks with awareness of each person's strengths. We're hiring for people to work on our UI as well as our compiler, scheduler, and hardware device drivers. If you're interested, send me an email at halie at radix.bio. I can say that we're extremely good at keeping people from getting bored since we have more interesting problems than time.

[fsociety]

IMO find companies that are remote friendly, even if you go into the office, and do not value ass in chair time. They are more likely to not care if you show up late one day, or don’t get much done one day.

I see a lot of comments on medication here, but you should know it is not the most effective treatment. Rephrased, medication alone will not be enough to overcome ADHD. The advice I received was that, it will help me do the things which will help my ADHD. For example, breaking large tasks into smaller ones, bullet journaling, etc.

Lastly read “Driven to Distraction”.

[indiantinker]

Hey,from my experience, things you can try are :

- Consulting/contracting (not freelance as it creates uncertainty and that could lead to stress)

- Design agencies (Front End/Design Technologist)

- Advertising Agencies who have a larger variety of projects (Technologist)

Hope that helps.

An example job I searched is based in Madrid: https://www.linkedin.com/mwlite/jobs/view/2908478547

[RickJWagner]

Red Hat has a community for neurodiversity. It's one of several groups for people with similar needs.

Generally, I think many people recommend Red Hat as an employer.

[hogrider]

I feel pretty much everywhere with permanent WFH is ok for neurodivergent folk. I'm in the spectrum and I know this setup is so much better for me.

[throwaway6532]

As an ADHDer who has been working all remote for the last 6 months after changing jobs I found it has been an absolutely anxiety inducing nightmare for me as I'm expected to pair program all the time but I'm hopeless at co-ordinating work with my team mates and my mind can just never relax as a result. I'm putting in my notice soon and returning to an office.

[adhd_thraway]

Thank you all for your contribution. I'm going to leave this throwaway. However if you'd have any question or just wanted to connect here's my anonymized e-mail. I can respond with it (just checked) but I'd rather remain anonymous for some time (like week or two).

Those who left their contact information and recommendation I'll be reaching out to soon. Once again thanks!

koncha_slizga_0b (at) icloud.com

[gnicholas]

Check out WildCardPeople, [1] a specialized job board that should fit your description. While it is not "an ADHD job board", my understanding is that they care about the ADHD community, and they seek out employers who would benefit from the strengths that many ADHD people exhibit.

1: https://wildcardpeople.com/

[pseudalopex]

"Wildcard People was a success, but turned into a normal tech job board. That's not what I wanted. I will be changing how this works in the coming months."

[wnkrshm]

I can recommend the "Additude ADHD Experts Podcast" where clinical psychiatrists, neurologists and therapists detail their approaches. Apparently something that works really well is pairing up someone with ADHD with someone who is more systematic. E.g. having someone with ADHD do prototypes and someone behind that who fleshes things out.

[pdrbrtt]

Great! Never heard of this podcast, will listen to it today! thank u

[ir123]

I'll answer your question directly.

There's a big (one of biggest) travel e-commerce company that hires in the Netherlands. I wont fully endorse the company, but from what I can see, there are groups dedicated to appreciating neurodiversity (and others for lgbt stuff and the like).

You can try over there.

[lnsru]

Sorry, this is in German: https://m.faz.net/aktuell/karriere-hochschule/buero-co/merhe...

71% of study participants don’t like their jobs. I will not write my opinion about ADHD, but most of the jobs are boring soul sucking time waste. Think about school - there were some good teachers, that liked what they did and the majority that just did their job. HN crowd obviously had good math and computer science and maybe physics or chemistry teachers.

I am your age and probably with ADHD too. But at this age you should know yourself and the tricks to overcome the deficits. My job is tragical. I am writing stupid shift registers in VHDL (that’s 2nd year homework at the university), but would like to design FPGA accelerators for high performance computing or day trading or machine learning. But the life isn’t pony yard. I can very well imagine HR making fun about the psychopaths they hired for their neurodiversity program. I know, it’s harsh and not pleasant, but I have heard a lot at this age already.

My advice: take some time, learn to know yourself better, especially how to overcome roadblocks and try act normal. Even if it means to play together with bored unhappy crowd.

[adhd_thraway]

Thank you very much - yet I really like my job. Honestly. I've took hiatus few times (burnout) but I always wanted to get back. I have only the best memories with both companies I worked for and people I worked with. Even fiascos weren't that bad. The only issue I have is about myself, I really want to go somewhere where I can say "oh you know, I am ADHD, I have temper and sometimes you need to micromanage me, that's my thing" and not jeopardize my career over that.

[noadvicebutnice]

Meditation before medication, if possible. If it seems hard, think of it as a sport that needs practice.

Multitasking is ingrained in the software we use, which I believe is part of the problem. Something something Attention Economy, probably.

[burner556]

Just get medicated my dude. Sure there are drawbacks but no reason to live life with your brain working against you. Once you find the right med it will click. Try them all!

[digitalsankhara]

As someone with high functioning autism could I suggest you look into the healthcare sector? I work (remotely) for one of the top EU hospitals - Cambridge University Hospitals Trust - as a senior analyst/programmer in clinical trials.

They are putting neurodiversity into practice (they reached out to all ND staff to contribute in this) and whilst may play into the cynical view of lip service if you hold that view, I know they are genuine about this. I also have a fantastic and understanding manager whom is open to making adjustments for me. I would never, ever what to work anywhere else away from the bunch of compassionate people at the Trust. The whole Moto of this Trust is "Safe, Kind, Excellent".

Loosing corporate, capitalistic drivers from your workplace when it comes to ND is a perhaps good start. Not saying all commercial employers or even non-profits don't care, but from my experience I really struggled in that sector in the past.

If you are open to a geographic move, or could get remote work, I would strongly suggest having a look as the NHS Jobs board. https://www.jobs.nhs.uk

Anyway, good luck to you, hope you find happiness and fulfilling work.

[lmc]

The UK is no longer in the EU and the new visa requirements have kicked in :-(

https://www.gulbenkian.co.uk/can-eu-citizens-work-in-the-uk-...

[5d60b053dfaa]

I was hired by Microsoft through their autism hiring cohort several years ago. From my experience, I would find it difficult to motivate myself to switch jobs and do the usual resume buffering that some people encourage, since I'm pretty much able to do my job without the specifics of my condition getting in the way. My team and my manager have always been focused on the details of my work and never on the blithe details of corporate culture. I honestly think that's just how Microsoft's culture is built, and I don't think I'd have as good a chance at succeeding in the cultures at the usual FAANG enterprises.

In addition to the job itself, I also got in touch with a contractor whose job it was to discuss the issues specifically related to me being a neurodiverse employee within the overall organization. She also acted as my job coach for a time, but recently their contract with MS expired, so I'm not sure if the same will apply to future hires. She also got in touch with my managers over the 4 years we worked together in case there were any impedance mismatches, of which there weren't any significant ones I recall. This was a massive difference from my previous jobs, where I was either left to the wayside with no explanation or disciplined into the ground for the most minor infractions that I couldn't understand (such as getting up and walking off while the CTO was talking to people at the same table at lunch).

Also part of the job were some neurodiverse focus groups where people hired through the cohort could interact, all knowing they weren't going to be judged and might have been put through the same things in life. I was also paired with an "advocate" in a separate system, who worked outside my org but volunteered to talk/socialize with people in the cohort. She eventually grew to be a good friend who deems me "family", and made good friends with her daughters. It's hard for me to overstate how much of an impact this made on my life, given that all my other efforts to make close friends fell apart during that time. Ultimately I might have been seeking something outside a standard friendship with a similarly-aged individual, and the way it happened to come together was via the cohort. This has often made me question if my only hope of finding a friendship that also maintains my interest to where it won't fall apart is with a person that already has a deep understanding of neurodiverse issues, and is prepared adjust their circumstances accordingly (one of her children had autism themselves).

My job has probably been the most significant benefit I have received in my life. It has enabled me to live independently and comfortably for many years. As such, it gives me pause to reflect on what might have happened if I didn't receive a diagnosis. People often say that there's no reason to get a diagnosis if it doesn't change what you'd do to cope with or mitigate the downsides, but me choosing to seek out a diagnosis had significant material benefits in my case. Not only that but I think I would not give my job up for anything, because even a job with comparable pay and benefits might be culturally incompatible the way I operate and choose not to socialize. Unless the company clearly states its position on neurodiverse employees, that essentially makes changing jobs a huge gamble with dire consequences if it doesn't work out (having been on the wrong side of that deal twice in my life already).

[iovrthoughtthis]

If you're an employer reading this and thinking "how can i help make my company adhd friendly" then i highly recommend you check out the welfare pack from adhduk [1].

i had a chat with the ceo of the charity when i got diagnosed to see if i could help and he is one of the few people i've spoken to in the space that is actively considering adhd in the workplace.

my favourite parts are:

- before criticising timeliness, ask if timeliness is critical to the role. if it isn't, have a policy of flexible time, make it ok to make up lateness later. if it is, find ways to make it less so with scheduling and partnering

- hot desking / open offices: make provisions for people to have quiet and uninterrupted work environments. perhaps that is alternate office space, providing noise cancelling headphones.

- meeting timeliness: fully integrate calendar and reminder systems. for many with adhd something not in the calendar may aswell not exist.

there are loads more but most of the key point boil down to: stop immediately thinking that every time someone doesn't meet your expectations, that it's a personal failure of theirs. start considering how the environment (physical, social, technological, conceptual) might be an impediment to them. start questioning your assumptions around what is "actually" necessary for a role and what you think is necessary.

my personal addition to this is: lots of the ways in which i disappoint people ultimately derive from an innate fear of disappointing people. the irony is not lost on me. the answer, ive found, is to create for myself an environment in which a) my colleagues can separate their disappointment in my actions/ outcomes from me. b) where i can communicate my issues / worries as and when they arrive without fear.

my favourite one has been telling people that a particular task will be far to boring for me to do alone and being able to partner up with someone else to get it done. or that asking me to remember to do something in prep for a meeting is a bad idea and to either pop it straight into my calendar, do it now or make some time during the meeting to do it. that last one is basically the amazon meeting agenda policy where the start of every meeting is reading the notes for the meeting, it's adhd dream.

i am reminded to leave this caveat: yes, these are problems we all face, the questions is: do the problems cause a material impact on your life (lost jobs, failed relationships (love/friends), missed opportunities, states of being that you cant escape). the difference between having adhd and not is whether the problems cause disorder in your life currently, and have done so for much of your life.

1]: https://adhduk.co.uk/adhd-and-work/

[skinkestek]

For many it helps to be clear about what deadlines are real.

From what I see the worst there is seems to be "you can do this anytime you like". That means never, because an ADHDer, helpful as they typically are will be busy from now on until eternity with whatever seems to be more urgent.

Some ADHD-ers are amazing at meeting deadlines as long as there is one at a time and they are somewhat realistic.

[hatware]

> stop immediately thinking that every time someone doesn't meet your expectations

It's a bit off topic, but this is so important for parenting, let alone running a company with employees.

[p0sixlang]

microsoft does.

[vkk8]

Every time someone tells me they have ADHD and suggest they should take some measures to accommodate it, I think of this Slate Star Codex post: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/12/28/adderall-risks-much-mo...

It's about Adderall (a popular medicine for ADHD), but the beginning of the article has a great discussion on the nature of ADHD.

[tgaj]

It's very simplistic. ADHD is not only problem with just focusing, there are many other symptoms. And yes it's hard to diagnose if someone is lying, but if someone is honest then there are many easy to spot patterns. And I think most honest people do not go for meds just because of work-related problems. ADHD cause problems in every aspect of life.

[petercooper]

I have been diagnosed (surprisingly, too, as I was being investigated for something else) and while I know ADHD "exists", I will concede it's probably an overly broad compromise of a diagnosis for now. But then other well known conditions are too: IBS, fibromyalgia, CFS, for starters.

All these conditions represent something real going on, even if the currently used terms aren't precise. Much as celiac disease was considered a general bowel complaint by pre-1850s doctors before being eventually discovered, I think with ADHD we'll see more discrete conditions being discovered and understood too (e.g. a specific sub-condition that reduces the transport of dopamine in the brain, say). But, for now, ADHD is the term we've got to work with.

[Mordisquitos]

> Judging from some self tests I have made I could perhaps have it myself but it hasn't affected my career in a negative way the slightest.

If it hasn't affected your career (or your personal life etc.) in a negative way in the slightest you simply don't have it—the last D in ADHD is essential.

[tgaj]

To be honest, I don't think neurotypical people can really understand ADHD. And it's probably even harder for people who believe that brain is just some kind of a tool that we have 100% power over. And that's a problem because this lucky people who won on genetic lottery are often in power. I think like over 50% of my life problems are not because of ADHD but because whole world tries to convince me that it is my fault. And yet there are hundreds of research papers that conclude that you can't just fix someone with ADHD. There is no therapy and no medication that can cure ADHD.

[iovrthoughtthis]

it's hard to answer comments like this cordially.

good for you i guess but i've spent enough of my life self-flagelating, pretending everything is my personal failing thanks.

quite thankful i can ask for help, be heard and see improvement.

[emptyparadise]

I wish I had the confidence of a software engineer casually disregarding medical research.

[tjpnz]

The experience I've had on versus off my meds says different.

[pseudalopex]

How do you explain the brain imaging studies?

[user-the-name]

So rather than think "oh, I guess those tests are rubbish and I don't actually have ADHD", your conclusion is "oh, ADHD must not exist then"?

[hatware]

2002 called, they want their hot take back.