When the raspberry pi first launched I managed to get Gentoo on it with a USB hard disk, and I decided that was the last time I was going to go that crazy ever again.
I also had some spare servers set up as distcc-pump servers, so very little got compiled on the pi.
If this sort of thing pleases you, more power to you. We need those people and these write-ups to keep everything moving forward, or it's apple all the way down...
I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots.
I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use.
And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys said "Grey Unix beards are formed in suffering".
Granted, a lot of stuff is in the documentation. But also a lot of stuff isn't. Your edge case from laptop X isn't documented, and you're still considered an idiot if you can't solve it.
Even the title of this article reflects that mindset.
I think you're overreacting and exaggerating, both regarding OpenBSD being complicated to set up and about the community being toxic.
Yes, a certain few people on the official mailing lists can be a bit vocal and stingy, and that also goes for one or two asocial a**holes on the inofficial IRC channel (#openbsd/libera), but these people are few and by no means representative of the community. For the absolute majority of occasions, people seeking help on these two venues are met with generous and thorough reciprocation.
If you've used unices for 20 years, and in particular if you've installed the Slackware of old, I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. It's technically the neatest, tidiest and least convoluted of the UNIX-likes out there, coupled with the best documentation available. Could it be that you approached it as if it were a "Linux-like"? I see this regularly with new users asking for help in #openbsd/libera, trying OpenBSD out with a bit of Linux in their backpack resulting in some common and entirely logical misconceptions.
> Granted, a lot of stuff is in the documentation. But also a lot of stuff isn't. Your edge case from laptop X isn't documented, and you're still considered an idiot if you can't solve it.
In my experience that's not what the OpenBSD mailing lists are like. Most people will go out of their way to help, but it's also expected that you do your own due diligence first. It's not a commercial project, and not every combination of hardware is going to work perfectly, or is going to be documented.
> Even the title of this article reflects that mindset.
I think you're reading too much into it, and really stretching it for that interpretation. You've gone in with a negative opinion of the OpenBSD community, which I think is an undeserved one, and are viewing it through that lens.
> I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots.
"The complete idiot's guide" is a well-known series of books that cover a variety of topics for beginners; the title is a play on that. It's not an insult.
the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots
Even the title of this article reflects that mindset
There's cultural history about that very phrase. There was a series of books written with that exact title. They were intended to "provide a basic understanding of a complex and popular topics. The term 'idiot' is used as hyperbole".https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides
Edit: I want to add that apparently the author put a lot of effort into writing a fairly comprehensive document. It will probably be quite helpful for someone attempting that install.
The document shouldn't be dismissed just because of the title.
So when you were told to RTFM, did you find the answer in the manual? If you didn't, did you tell them, and how did they respond?
I don't have any experience with OpenBSD or its community, but I'm in several (Linux-related) communities that would also tell you to RTFM if you were to ask a question that we expect is answered in the FM. And we would be happy to be corrected if you came back and told us it wasn't there, or even better if you told us when you initially asked your question that you did read such-and-such parts of the FM and did not find the answer. You could even become the one to update the manual to add the missing info for the next soul who has the same problem.
Basically what I'm getting at is that lots of small communities don't have the resources or inclination to answer the same questions over and over again. Yes the response may not be polite, and if that puts you off of using the software then so be it, but some level of self-help and doing-your-homework is expected before asking questions.
Do you have examples of what in OpenBSD you found "utterly complicated to setup and use"? I've been using for several years now because of how devoid of complexity it is and because of how comprehensive the documentation is. Trying to even install other Unices nowadays frustrates me to no end because they're more complicated than "just keep pressing enter".
That doesn't really match my experience. When I read the docs and don't find what I want, I've gotten useful help from the community. Either they help me or they point me to the piece of documentation that I somehow missed.
Granted I didn't actually ever need to ask for much help because OpenBSD was so utterly simple to set up.
From the POV of most of the folks working on OpenBSD most people are idiots. It's sounds like snark, but I'm trying to make a point here. There are umpteen OS for beginners (Ubuntu, TinyCore) or power users (Arch, most of the others) but OpenBSD is mostly for OpenBSD developers. They have been dealing with "idiots" who don't get that for years and years now, and part of their attitude is (IMO) just a heuristic for keeping out the riffraff.
I like OpenBSD because it doesn't treat the user like an idiot, and the documentation is excellent.
Also, the developers assume that they, themselves are idiots that can't maintain complex software, so they rip out as much unnecessary complexity as possible.
>I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots.
Nobody called anyone an idiot. You just missed the direct and obvious reference to the "Complete idiot guides to" series of books which are themselves a reference of the "for dummies" books.
My biggest problem with OpenBSD is the partitioning, do i want security? Then i need partitions with w^x but how big should they be without wasting to much space. I think OpenBSD would greatly benefit from stuff like zfs-filesystems or btrfs sub-partitions...and NO i don't say OpenBSD needs ZFS, just a more flexible partition mechanism, maybe overlay with quota or something?
Having used OpenBSD and seeing how partitions and mount options are used to increase security, it’s really weird going back to a Linux system where everything is just one big partition.
You’re right though, it’s really tricky getting the partition sizes right. The auto layout is sensible, I just feel that it set aside to much space for home and to little for var.
Linux has all the tools to make use of partitions, but many distros still just go for one big partition. It seems counter intuitive.
This is one of OpenBSD's shortcomings. While I like the fundamental design of all the file systems living contained within a "normal" MBR/GPT partition, the lack of advanced tools (no logical volume management, can only grow file systems but not shrink them etc.) has vexed me a couple of times during my 22 years of using OpenBSD. Thankfully it doesn't take long to get a good view of the storage requirements. I recommend playing around with OpenBSD in a virtual machine, e.g. VirtualBox or so.
Seems like an attempt to make it should Apple-like in naming. Why the need to try and piggyback off Apple? I take it less seriously because of the obvious attempt at invoking Apple. A gimmick name.
genewitch|4 years ago
I also had some spare servers set up as distcc-pump servers, so very little got compiled on the pi.
If this sort of thing pleases you, more power to you. We need those people and these write-ups to keep everything moving forward, or it's apple all the way down...
aspyct|4 years ago
I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use.
And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys said "Grey Unix beards are formed in suffering".
Granted, a lot of stuff is in the documentation. But also a lot of stuff isn't. Your edge case from laptop X isn't documented, and you're still considered an idiot if you can't solve it.
Even the title of this article reflects that mindset.
daneel_w|4 years ago
Yes, a certain few people on the official mailing lists can be a bit vocal and stingy, and that also goes for one or two asocial a**holes on the inofficial IRC channel (#openbsd/libera), but these people are few and by no means representative of the community. For the absolute majority of occasions, people seeking help on these two venues are met with generous and thorough reciprocation.
If you've used unices for 20 years, and in particular if you've installed the Slackware of old, I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. It's technically the neatest, tidiest and least convoluted of the UNIX-likes out there, coupled with the best documentation available. Could it be that you approached it as if it were a "Linux-like"? I see this regularly with new users asking for help in #openbsd/libera, trying OpenBSD out with a bit of Linux in their backpack resulting in some common and entirely logical misconceptions.
messe|4 years ago
In my experience that's not what the OpenBSD mailing lists are like. Most people will go out of their way to help, but it's also expected that you do your own due diligence first. It's not a commercial project, and not every combination of hardware is going to work perfectly, or is going to be documented.
> Even the title of this article reflects that mindset.
I think you're reading too much into it, and really stretching it for that interpretation. You've gone in with a negative opinion of the OpenBSD community, which I think is an undeserved one, and are viewing it through that lens.
nulbyte|4 years ago
"The complete idiot's guide" is a well-known series of books that cover a variety of topics for beginners; the title is a play on that. It's not an insult.
PhantomGremlin|4 years ago
Even the title of this article reflects that mindset
There's cultural history about that very phrase. There was a series of books written with that exact title. They were intended to "provide a basic understanding of a complex and popular topics. The term 'idiot' is used as hyperbole". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides
Edit: I want to add that apparently the author put a lot of effort into writing a fairly comprehensive document. It will probably be quite helpful for someone attempting that install.
The document shouldn't be dismissed just because of the title.
Arnavion|4 years ago
I don't have any experience with OpenBSD or its community, but I'm in several (Linux-related) communities that would also tell you to RTFM if you were to ask a question that we expect is answered in the FM. And we would be happy to be corrected if you came back and told us it wasn't there, or even better if you told us when you initially asked your question that you did read such-and-such parts of the FM and did not find the answer. You could even become the one to update the manual to add the missing info for the next soul who has the same problem.
Basically what I'm getting at is that lots of small communities don't have the resources or inclination to answer the same questions over and over again. Yes the response may not be polite, and if that puts you off of using the software then so be it, but some level of self-help and doing-your-homework is expected before asking questions.
temprature|4 years ago
foxfluff|4 years ago
Granted I didn't actually ever need to ask for much help because OpenBSD was so utterly simple to set up.
carapace|4 years ago
anthk|4 years ago
>And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm"
You don't get a "man afterboot" advice for nothing.
hedora|4 years ago
Also, the developers assume that they, themselves are idiots that can't maintain complex software, so they rip out as much unnecessary complexity as possible.
Sorry you had a bad experience with someone.
prmoustache|4 years ago
Nobody called anyone an idiot. You just missed the direct and obvious reference to the "Complete idiot guides to" series of books which are themselves a reference of the "for dummies" books.
Bancakes|4 years ago
nix23|4 years ago
mrweasel|4 years ago
You’re right though, it’s really tricky getting the partition sizes right. The auto layout is sensible, I just feel that it set aside to much space for home and to little for var.
Linux has all the tools to make use of partitions, but many distros still just go for one big partition. It seems counter intuitive.
daneel_w|4 years ago
Fuhrer01|4 years ago
[deleted]
j4yav|4 years ago
nix23|4 years ago
briandear|4 years ago
Seems like an attempt to make it should Apple-like in naming. Why the need to try and piggyback off Apple? I take it less seriously because of the obvious attempt at invoking Apple. A gimmick name.