> There is a big incentive for politicians, landlords, corporate executives and business owners to get commuters to return. Consider what would happen if workers don’t return to the Big Apple. It could cause a cascade of business closures. Without the throngs of workers commuting into New York, restaurants, bars, gyms, shops and stores may be forced to close down due to the lack of customers.
They somehow managed to twist this in such a way that the burden was shifted on the workers-consumers themselves. Instead of saying that all these businesses that relied on a social arrangement whereby the workers were forced to consume overpriced services and products - thus, an arrangement that was more disadvantageous to the workers than any other party - will now need to find new ways to make money, the suggested solution is instead to continue to force workers to consume there, so those businesses not close down.
One could argue that forcing consumers to support certain geographic areas or businesses in order for these not to close down is as far as possible from the free market that is supposedly at play, considering that the consumers will obviously spend their money elsewhere.
What a great example of pulling back the curtain just a little to reveal how much of our lives are manufactured and what they could be like if we didn't bend to these pressures.
Another, more sustainable, option is to make it more pleasant to live in downtown areas. NYC probably doesn’t have this issue as much as others, but plenty of smaller cities were completely dead on the weekends because few actually live downtown. It’s way more sustainable to have neighborhoods built on many small businesses and hundreds of families. If a small business shuts down or someone moves out, it doesn’t have a huge impact on the overall neighborhood. Compare to huge businesses employing thousands. If they move, it is obviously devastating to the local economy because this one entity was the bedrock of the town. (Especially a thing in lots of smaller towns and cities!)
NYC doesn’t have that problem maybe, but many cities will have to deal with this shift, and the solution isn’t to be regressive but to start finding new ways to make these places vibrant.
The square mile in London is deserted at the weekend (despite presumably most of the offices having some occupants). I’d say this is more about businesses having to adapt to what people want rather than forcing people to behave in certain ways.
My wife and I live in smaller cities for her job. Well we will in the suburbs.
We've always found it odd how we see these news stories of the local downtown dying yet, they all offer nothing of value to many on the evenings and weekends.
NYC is rare among American cities in that they impose their own income tax separately from state and federal income taxes. And it applies not just to residents but also to workers who commute in from outside the city. If those employees keep working from home in Connecticut or New Jersey then they no longer have to pay the NYC tax. So I suspect the Mayor is starting to panic about his budget deficit.
Philadelphia recently changed their enforcement of the "City Wage Tax" to protect against such things. If you were hired for a position in the city you must pay the tax if your WFH is 40 miles from city limits. They're currently threatening all business small and large with an audit if they don't comply. We've been through four different accounting firms who all told us the same thing.
It's unfortunate but it's still better than paying the tax and making the commute.
I highly suspect that New York City and other cities who take a massive tax hit due to a lack of office workers will promptly introduce new tax laws to remedy that.
San Francisco is having the same issue - they are taking a major hit in taxes due to a lack of commutors.
Reeks of desperation. Companies that offer a fully remote option will be able to better attract top talent. Ridiculous how the argument is basically “Even though you are capable of working wherever you like, we will force you to live and work in a particular location because the powerful want your money and time outside of work as well.” Hopefully some leaders will see beyond the absurdity.
Louis Rossmann, who pay $13,000 per month for his place, has posted MULTIPLE videos where he goes around looking at shops in NYC which are tiny, and how, despite demand being down and supply being up, have actually INCREASED their asking rate, which makes no sense.
The local govt is asking people back because they run on NYC property taxes, but both them and the property needs to learn that rates needs to come back to reality.
NYC real estate is really overrated. There are literally fourteen coats of paint on my kitchen going back to the 1950s - it’s been white, beige, red, yellow, green, and sky blue at various times in its existence. I found I had a dedicated circuit for a window air conditioner - the socket had been filled with putty and painted over at least four times, I hired an electrician to dig it out and now I no longer blow a fuse when my refrigerator and air conditioner both run on a hot day. I did say fuses - until two years ago I still had a fuse panel and a box of spare Edison S-type fuses standing by in case one blew at night. Getting a circuit breaker panel was the best day ever - ironically just two weeks after I found a vendor on Amazon that sold breakers that fit the S-type fuse sockets. A luxury apartment in NYC is one where the baseboard molding meets the floor instead of leaving quarter inch gap for all the vermin to crawl out of the walls at night. My solution was to fill all the gaps with silicon bathtub sealant, still allows for movement but keeps out stuff with more then two legs. It really bothers me that my doctor and dentist have offices with the same gaps - I can only guess what crawls around at night.
The internet was more than a way to shop or a way to read what people had to say or video calls with grandma. The internet can restructure the way people organize and interact, and if it can, it will. Cities are built on the premise that people must live in close proximity to interact with one another. A whole cottage industry of rent seekers has sprung up around this necessity, some business models with centuries of history. Whole cities have built their structure on a necessity that no longer exists.
I expect a wave of deurbanization in the coming century, where humans spread through the unsettled landscape in smaller, less densely populated communities, and most professional, information heavy work being done remotely. Most of these cities will become ruins.
> I expect a wave of deurbanization in the coming century, where humans spread through the unsettled landscape in smaller, less densely populated communities, and most professional, information heavy work being done remotely. Most of these cities will become ruins.
Sounds great. As someone who deeply dislikes large, noisy polluted cities I think a move back to smaller communities whereby everyone knows each other is a positive thing.
As much as I hate commuting to the office, I'm seeing a ton of bigger companies push for this .
This is easily worth 50k to me. I see no point in to riding the train for hours per day, at the same time I understand that without business commuters many bigger cities will just collapse.
I think that ship has sailed for good. Thanks to Covid I now know that remote work is the perk I never knew I wanted. I think a lot of other people are in the same situation. If they want to bring people back to the city they might consider converting those offices to housing. NYC would also do well to tax unoccupied stores and businesses. Even before the pandemic you could spot buildings with multiple unfinished or unoccupied floors at dusk, the landlords just write off the depreciation and let them sit empty while hoping for a Saudi prince or Russian tycoon to drop them a large payday down the road. Covid isn’t going away, they are never going to be able to pack people in as the was the norm in NYC, the NYC economics need to adjust for a world where you need to see daylight between people and have proper airflow.
Jobs are not good in themselves, they need to serve a purpose. The reality is that the coffee you brew at home is just as good as the coffee you buy at ten 20 times the price. These are jobs that should not exist
They should exist, and will continue to exist because it's not just about the coffee. There's a social experience of going to a coffee shop, meeting friends, chatting with the barista. That's worth the 20x price to me, and many others.
During this period is tech workers have the power and we need to make sure we use to the maximum. I’ve flat out told my bosses I will quit if they try to get me back into the office. They were begging me to stay and we’re still fully remote!
i am literally never going back to office not even hybrid... ill take 100k cut if i had to.. my passion for coding as a job is already on its last legs. this reflects purely on the new mayor shows incompetence social psychology, economics and policy making. if worlds problem could be fixed just by forcing people to in perfect way, world would an utopia. how about not artificially divide city into residential/office/commercial areas?
"this reflects purely on the new mayor shows incompetence social psychology, economics and policy making" Eh, I mean, seems like he is more so trying to get work for all of the people that live there in the quickest way he knows how. Cleaners, hotels, police, hospitality, etc.
Cities are networks effects in the physical world, if they start to unravel then most people will be out of a job. That's totally your right to want to never come back to the office, I'm sure you will have no problem doing just that. On the contrary, it's actually the mayor's JOB to keep those network effects (i.e. the city) going.
So yeah, we could reconfigure New York, and maybe we should, but that will cause a lot of pain to a lot of people who can't do what you are doing and who don't make 100k+ in the comfort of their own home.
> By avoiding dressing too fancy, wearing expensive jewelry and watches or prominently displaying the bank’s logo, they may go undetected and not catch the eye of a possible assailant. There have been horrendous acts of senseless violence perpetrated in the train stations, as well as the streets of the Big Apple.
This seems like a big part of the problem that remote work has solved.
Nah. I've been 100% remote since 2015 and while I miss in-person work at times, and it's much easier to learn new things in a tight office, but the benefits from being remote are just too big to say no to.
Way less carbon emissions, far cheaper for me, more work-life balance, no commutes eating up my day and driving me nuts. No crappy work lunches where I snag McD's cuz it's close by; I can whip up something in a slowcooker during my "lunchbreak" and have good food all day. I'm happy to run errands during rush hour since traffic is still reasonably light.
Hell, I even get to pet my dog during the work day for occasional and immediate stress relief; at the office I'd just sulk in a cube somewhere.
I'll concede that the COVID lock down made it hard to be remote since I couldn't hit a gym, bar, or hang with friends, but now that it's looking like we're reopening again those are viable.
But screw going back. If the cities can't handle it, good -- let the free market it do it's thing.
That’s not how capitalism works. If there are less people commuting into NYC the retail/restaurant businesses will have to adapt (probably already have), so the Mayors budget deficit from less people paying taxes for working there should also adapt.
will be interesting to see what happens. But from an efficiency perspective I can't see any reason companies would comply. There are almost no benefits but a lot of costs to requiring in person work
Many companies have extensive office infrastructure built or leased. It could take a decade or two to get out of that setup. Meanwhile the buildings sit empty...
[+] [-] robtherobber|4 years ago|reply
They somehow managed to twist this in such a way that the burden was shifted on the workers-consumers themselves. Instead of saying that all these businesses that relied on a social arrangement whereby the workers were forced to consume overpriced services and products - thus, an arrangement that was more disadvantageous to the workers than any other party - will now need to find new ways to make money, the suggested solution is instead to continue to force workers to consume there, so those businesses not close down.
One could argue that forcing consumers to support certain geographic areas or businesses in order for these not to close down is as far as possible from the free market that is supposedly at play, considering that the consumers will obviously spend their money elsewhere.
[+] [-] eatonphil|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cyanydeez|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kelseyfrog|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noahtallen|4 years ago|reply
NYC doesn’t have that problem maybe, but many cities will have to deal with this shift, and the solution isn’t to be regressive but to start finding new ways to make these places vibrant.
[+] [-] dt5702|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SkyPuncher|4 years ago|reply
We've always found it odd how we see these news stories of the local downtown dying yet, they all offer nothing of value to many on the evenings and weekends.
[+] [-] frozenport|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hungryforcodes|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nradov|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wronglebowski|4 years ago|reply
It's unfortunate but it's still better than paying the tax and making the commute.
[+] [-] refurb|4 years ago|reply
San Francisco is having the same issue - they are taking a major hit in taxes due to a lack of commutors.
[+] [-] ceras|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hungryforcodes|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moneycantbuy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryzvonusef|4 years ago|reply
The local govt is asking people back because they run on NYC property taxes, but both them and the property needs to learn that rates needs to come back to reality.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkVbIsAWN2lvV4KY2Ag7r...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkVbIsAWN2lt_n88l7WC2...
[+] [-] zxcvbn4038|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] betwixthewires|4 years ago|reply
I expect a wave of deurbanization in the coming century, where humans spread through the unsettled landscape in smaller, less densely populated communities, and most professional, information heavy work being done remotely. Most of these cities will become ruins.
[+] [-] CodeGlitch|4 years ago|reply
Sounds great. As someone who deeply dislikes large, noisy polluted cities I think a move back to smaller communities whereby everyone knows each other is a positive thing.
[+] [-] landemva|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djmips|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 999900000999|4 years ago|reply
This is easily worth 50k to me. I see no point in to riding the train for hours per day, at the same time I understand that without business commuters many bigger cities will just collapse.
[+] [-] clpm4j|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yucky|4 years ago|reply
Enough about the pros, are there any cons?
[+] [-] zxcvbn4038|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noel99|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesc|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mensetmanusman|4 years ago|reply
Vegan hotdog economics. Love how out of touch this seems. Has to be satire.
[+] [-] bogomipz|4 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk2Wc4Y5CxE
[+] [-] noel99|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lifeplusplus|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] motoxpro|4 years ago|reply
Cities are networks effects in the physical world, if they start to unravel then most people will be out of a job. That's totally your right to want to never come back to the office, I'm sure you will have no problem doing just that. On the contrary, it's actually the mayor's JOB to keep those network effects (i.e. the city) going.
So yeah, we could reconfigure New York, and maybe we should, but that will cause a lot of pain to a lot of people who can't do what you are doing and who don't make 100k+ in the comfort of their own home.
[+] [-] missedthecue|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] apalumbi|4 years ago|reply
This seems like a big part of the problem that remote work has solved.
[+] [-] Ekaros|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Justin_K|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fartcannon|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] clpm4j|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] testrun|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] doopy1|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] error_code99|4 years ago|reply
Way less carbon emissions, far cheaper for me, more work-life balance, no commutes eating up my day and driving me nuts. No crappy work lunches where I snag McD's cuz it's close by; I can whip up something in a slowcooker during my "lunchbreak" and have good food all day. I'm happy to run errands during rush hour since traffic is still reasonably light.
Hell, I even get to pet my dog during the work day for occasional and immediate stress relief; at the office I'd just sulk in a cube somewhere.
I'll concede that the COVID lock down made it hard to be remote since I couldn't hit a gym, bar, or hang with friends, but now that it's looking like we're reopening again those are viable.
But screw going back. If the cities can't handle it, good -- let the free market it do it's thing.
[+] [-] StockHuman|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matt_s|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ren_engineer|4 years ago|reply
will be interesting to see what happens. But from an efficiency perspective I can't see any reason companies would comply. There are almost no benefits but a lot of costs to requiring in person work
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] hungryforcodes|4 years ago|reply