This is a point that people should remember if they're thinking about purchasing a framework. This is still very much beta hardware.
The battery drain is annoying, it's around 30-50% per night depending on what addon cards you have. I've got a setup that puts it close to 40% per night so the laptop has to live on charger over night if I want to use it the next day.
However, the thing that's really stopping me from using my laptop (it has sat in my office for the last 3 weeks with its lid closed) is the touchpad. https://community.frame.work/t/subpar-touchpad/3962
External mouse only.
The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers.
Edit: Also, the I'll throw in the speakers being absolute garbage as well. Think 1 step above 90s pc speaker. And the sound device has a constant background static when using headphones which clicks on when there's sound and then 2 seconds after any sound being played clicks off.
Is this an issue for Ubuntu specifically or all distributions? Read somewhere that they recommended Fedora 35 for the best driver support at the moment, though that'll probably change after the next releases of 22.04 and F36.
Awesome that you're switching your whole team to Frameworks - my next work laptop will for sure be a Framework too :)
Battery drain seems to be a common serious issue among enthusiast linux hardware, e.g. PinePhone, CutiePi and now Framework. Is this a coincidence or is it due to incompatible ACPI on non-standard hardware?
I’m using Arch with Wayland and Sway and I notice very little battery drain. I generally shut it down overnight though. Do most people rarely shut down their laptops?
Interesting that the only two new laptops that have tempted me in years (the Framework and the new MBP) both arrived at roughly the same time yet with wildly different design philosophies.
I find it interesting that the mbp garnered so much attention from tech folk. Perf AVG, build eh. Ethos...terrible. yet still. Gets people in the door to buy it. Humans are wack.
One of the members of my team ordered a Framework Laptop, the Professional edition, about 4 months ago to replace his old Lenovo. In the first week, he had battery drain issues. Even when he put it to sleep, it would drain the battery. He had to keep it plugged in at all times. He tried few distros (including the older version of Ubuntu they recommend) and the problems persisted. His screen also had issues and colors would slightly shift. I lent him my colorimeter and he said the monitor would lose calibration after several days. He also complained about trackpad not tracking his finger properly. In the end, he returned it. I think he said you have 30 days to return it.
I am really excited about this laptop but I'm reading reviews like this a lot more now that they are delivering.
Their community forum has a lot of users asking for solutions for the problems you mentioned and even Linux compatibility issues.
I really hope they fix these issues too. A friend made a joke, which I find hilarious: "you can always replace all the parts that are failing, isn't that the point?".
The battery drain issue though is not unique to Framework laptop. I have a Thinkpad T14s 4750U pro laptop and it drains battery too.Look at number of threads on Lenovo forums about battery drain issues.
I suspect as a whole intel moved to these new fangled s0ix sleep states, which are not well supported in Linux and s3 state does not work well enough in these new Laptops.
I've had the battery drain issues too, and it sucks bad. That said I remember seeing a fix a little while ago and I haven't had any issues recently. I run Fedora 35 though so my kernel stays pretty new. On Ubuntu you're gonna be stuck on an older kernel unless you install the newer one.
I'm really hopeful a 15" is not too distant (but seems like it might be). I have an aging Dell XPS 9550, but there's not been much I've wanted to jump at. I looked briefly at the System76 Kudu - are there any go-to 15" Linux-friendly workstations?
It seems a lot of developer-type folks have moved to cloud focused work, at least in my bubble the raw computing power seems to be less and less valued.
Modularity could be a big advantage for smaller companies - getting a decent system (cpu/ram etc), and a great screen in one package is enough of a challenge.
Add in touchpad, keyboard, hinges, etc, and it's no wonder only the premium large manufacturers seem able to pull off an all-round great machine.
Plus the tablet form-factor is just more versatile than a clamshell laptop.
This is the problem with trying to please power users. There is no monolithic bloc of them. They all want different things.
AMD vs Intel? Touchscreens? Strong opinions about screen aspect ratio and resolution, keyboard layout, touchpads, wifi chipset brand, GPU brand, etc.? All there.
I wish the company luck, but they are targeting the most picky consumer market there is.
Everyone says that, but realistically, at the size of their company, I can't imagine they have the resources to design, test and support both Intel and AMD designs in parallel at the present.
HW development is insanely capital intensive and they're far away from the resources of the likes of Asus and MSI, let alone Lenovo or Dell.
No. The IME could be disabled via hardware like Purism have done with their Librem series, but it seems like Framework hasn't made the effort to do so. They also still use a proprietary firmware on their ECs. In the future they plan to support Coreboot but if you ask me it is far down their bucket list.
Great laptop.
My only wish they would hire professional support.
It is none existing atm. And if you get their attention, expect to get FAQ article responce which you already read 10 times. Otherwise your best bet forums.
With 12th gen Intel and Ryzen 6000 knocking on the door, it does not feel right to be pre ordering 11th gen 4c/8t Intel laptops. If I were in the market for a new laptop I would get one of the new 16:10 ThinkPads.
I have an X1 Carbon Gen 9 with Ubuntu as my daily driver. Everything just works. Sleep, fingerprint etc.
The one thing the ended up keeping me from the Framework laptops was the lack of Home, End, Insert, Delete buttons. Having had a number of Thinkpad machines I have gotten used to using them all the time.
I also quite enjoy that I can put my hands on the keyboard and almost not move them at all while using the little knob for mouse-activities when keyboard shortcuts run out.
Yeah, I'm feeling the same. I was considering ordering one last fall, when I think it would have been reasonable to get an 11th-gen, but I couldn't justify a new laptop purchase then. Now I'd probably wait for a 12th-gen mainboard before ordering.
I'm also still not sure how I feel about the 3:2 screen. I've gotten so used to 16:9 & 16:10 that I think it'd be hard to go back to something similar to a 4:3 screen again.
I hate this trend of apple style trackpads that take up most of the real estate and keep registering false positives when you type. I have to use a macbook for work and most of the time I can use it just fine in clamshell mode connected to external keyboard/peripherals but ocassionally when I am not at my desk and have to interact directly with the laptop it's an absolutely atrocious experience due to that damn trackpad.
At first this comment made me angry (it's Linux, the whole point is user choice, what would be the benefit in preinstalling!) - but I suppose System76 have really showed how much better things can be with Pop!_OS.
I would expect the vast majority of users will be using Linux though, so calling it Windows only seems a little misleading. There is an option to get no OS and avoid the Windows tax.
I’m with you in the “Intel Only” but not the “Windows only”. Windows is the only one you have to pay for, so it’s the only one with an option. If you don’t want Windows, then choose the “bring your own” option and download your Linux distribution.
Heh. I saw the Ireland flag and immediately thought maybe just they forgot to put a wheel in the middle and just tilted it a bit wrong and looks they selling in my country as well now :)
I think I will just have to get a Dell or HP or Lenovo by now (if not another Mac). By the time they will decide to sell on this side of the planet they will either go defunct (just a sad prediction) or customised laptops won't be a limited fad-like anymore.
I recall a recent HN post about reverse engineering a thinkpad EC in order to get around battery DRM.
With framework that would be doubly unnecessary because the EC firmware is open source. Also they open source stuff having to do with their add on modules.
Plus, I'd wager a guess that Intel/AMD make you sign an NDA that would probably rule an open mainboard (I don't know this for sure). What may need to happen to get high end open hardware is for a company with the right ethos to become big enough to have negotiating power or to design their own SOC.
Framework is trying to strike a balance between producing laptops competitive with mass market offerings and providing users control. If you want freedom over all else you should probably buy a Librem or MNT reform.
Good one, but IMO a bit too expensive for the specs.
I recently got a new laptop with Ryzen 5 5600U, 32GB RAM, and 2TB SSD. The laptop is HP ProBook 445 G8. RAM and SSD were sold separately, the upgrade only took 10 minutes and 6 screws. I paid less than €1000 including the upgrades.
The laptop is comparable to the Framework professional they offer for €2280. AMD CPU is better, 15442 versus 11036 points of cpubenchmark.net (that’s 6 cores versus 4). Surprisingly, Intel GPU is better, 2 versus 1.6 TFlops FP32. RAM amount is the same, AMD has twice the SSD storage.
The only large downside is the display, my laptop has 16x9 1080p 14” IPS, the Framework has more pixels and 3x2 aspect ratio.
You wanna bring it to more of the world? Try adding crypto as payment method. I know you have a political stand against using crypto (the "crypto is bad for environment" FUD spread by traditional financial players), I hope you'll get your heads out of you know where and do this to actually bring framework to the unbanked masses.
I'm sure the coal plants that were shutting down until crypto miners bought them is just pure FUD.
And I guess Satoshi's paper on Bitcoin, which shows that Bitcoin is fundamentally run by whoever has the most CPU power, which has naturally triggered a CPU power arms race which has led to a corresponding increase in power consumption is also FUD.
(Once/if alternatives like Ethereum's Proof of Stake are the dominant force in crypto then yes, power consumption will not be a problem, but it is a very real problem now, and if it had simply been dismissed as FUD then solutions like Proof of Stake would never have been created).
sudders|4 years ago
Then I'll be switching all the developers in our company over to a new machine.
(Currently running XPS 13, but we are due an upgrade, especially on memory)
aunty_helen|4 years ago
The battery drain is annoying, it's around 30-50% per night depending on what addon cards you have. I've got a setup that puts it close to 40% per night so the laptop has to live on charger over night if I want to use it the next day.
However, the thing that's really stopping me from using my laptop (it has sat in my office for the last 3 weeks with its lid closed) is the touchpad. https://community.frame.work/t/subpar-touchpad/3962 External mouse only.
The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers.
Edit: Also, the I'll throw in the speakers being absolute garbage as well. Think 1 step above 90s pc speaker. And the sound device has a constant background static when using headphones which clicks on when there's sound and then 2 seconds after any sound being played clicks off.
nikodunk|4 years ago
Awesome that you're switching your whole team to Frameworks - my next work laptop will for sure be a Framework too :)
Abishek_Muthian|4 years ago
Battery drain seems to be a common serious issue among enthusiast linux hardware, e.g. PinePhone, CutiePi and now Framework. Is this a coincidence or is it due to incompatible ACPI on non-standard hardware?
deepsun|4 years ago
If you mean high consumption in "shallow sleep" -- I switched to "deep sleep" in the first day.
criddell|4 years ago
willmorrison|4 years ago
ghostly_s|4 years ago
gtvwill|4 years ago
filmgirlcw|4 years ago
Jerry2|4 years ago
Hope they fix these issues.
kinduff|4 years ago
Their community forum has a lot of users asking for solutions for the problems you mentioned and even Linux compatibility issues.
I really hope they fix these issues too. A friend made a joke, which I find hilarious: "you can always replace all the parts that are failing, isn't that the point?".
gnufied|4 years ago
I suspect as a whole intel moved to these new fangled s0ix sleep states, which are not well supported in Linux and s3 state does not work well enough in these new Laptops.
freedomben|4 years ago
yumraj|4 years ago
I just hope my current laptop can hold out till whenever that is, else it'll have to be the 16" MBP with $400 for 32GB RAM upgrade :(
abstract_put|4 years ago
It seems a lot of developer-type folks have moved to cloud focused work, at least in my bubble the raw computing power seems to be less and less valued.
jacknews|4 years ago
Modularity could be a big advantage for smaller companies - getting a decent system (cpu/ram etc), and a great screen in one package is enough of a challenge.
Add in touchpad, keyboard, hinges, etc, and it's no wonder only the premium large manufacturers seem able to pull off an all-round great machine.
Plus the tablet form-factor is just more versatile than a clamshell laptop.
Queue29|4 years ago
twblalock|4 years ago
AMD vs Intel? Touchscreens? Strong opinions about screen aspect ratio and resolution, keyboard layout, touchpads, wifi chipset brand, GPU brand, etc.? All there.
I wish the company luck, but they are targeting the most picky consumer market there is.
ChuckNorris89|4 years ago
HW development is insanely capital intensive and they're far away from the resources of the likes of Asus and MSI, let alone Lenovo or Dell.
rasz|4 years ago
toomanydoubts|4 years ago
hypothermic|4 years ago
COGlory|4 years ago
toastal|4 years ago
slavah|4 years ago
hbgl|4 years ago
q-base|4 years ago
The one thing the ended up keeping me from the Framework laptops was the lack of Home, End, Insert, Delete buttons. Having had a number of Thinkpad machines I have gotten used to using them all the time.
I also quite enjoy that I can put my hands on the keyboard and almost not move them at all while using the little knob for mouse-activities when keyboard shortcuts run out.
kelnos|4 years ago
I'm also still not sure how I feel about the 3:2 screen. I've gotten so used to 16:9 & 16:10 that I think it'd be hard to go back to something similar to a 4:3 screen again.
bloodyplonker22|4 years ago
avl999|4 years ago
culopatin|4 years ago
gentle|4 years ago
hiimshort|4 years ago
kelnos|4 years ago
I don't have one (yet?), so I can't speak to how well they actually achieved this goal, though.
m6w6|4 years ago
* Intel only * Windows only
... sorry boy and mum are arguing over homework -- gotta run!
rozab|4 years ago
I would expect the vast majority of users will be using Linux though, so calling it Windows only seems a little misleading. There is an option to get no OS and avoid the Windows tax.
byefruit|4 years ago
mohanmcgeek|4 years ago
https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
hk1337|4 years ago
crossroadsguy|4 years ago
I think I will just have to get a Dell or HP or Lenovo by now (if not another Mac). By the time they will decide to sell on this side of the planet they will either go defunct (just a sad prediction) or customised laptops won't be a limited fad-like anymore.
goodpoint|4 years ago
If not, is it really that different than a thinkpad?
zucker42|4 years ago
With framework that would be doubly unnecessary because the EC firmware is open source. Also they open source stuff having to do with their add on modules.
Plus, I'd wager a guess that Intel/AMD make you sign an NDA that would probably rule an open mainboard (I don't know this for sure). What may need to happen to get high end open hardware is for a company with the right ethos to become big enough to have negotiating power or to design their own SOC.
Framework is trying to strike a balance between producing laptops competitive with mass market offerings and providing users control. If you want freedom over all else you should probably buy a Librem or MNT reform.
pkphilip|4 years ago
Const-me|4 years ago
I recently got a new laptop with Ryzen 5 5600U, 32GB RAM, and 2TB SSD. The laptop is HP ProBook 445 G8. RAM and SSD were sold separately, the upgrade only took 10 minutes and 6 screws. I paid less than €1000 including the upgrades.
The laptop is comparable to the Framework professional they offer for €2280. AMD CPU is better, 15442 versus 11036 points of cpubenchmark.net (that’s 6 cores versus 4). Surprisingly, Intel GPU is better, 2 versus 1.6 TFlops FP32. RAM amount is the same, AMD has twice the SSD storage.
The only large downside is the display, my laptop has 16x9 1080p 14” IPS, the Framework has more pixels and 3x2 aspect ratio.
nine_k|4 years ago
Also, this is what integration, that is, limiting the customization options, does for you.
Having a niche and highly customizable thing costs you extra.
zapdrive|4 years ago
thaway2839|4 years ago
And I guess Satoshi's paper on Bitcoin, which shows that Bitcoin is fundamentally run by whoever has the most CPU power, which has naturally triggered a CPU power arms race which has led to a corresponding increase in power consumption is also FUD.
(Once/if alternatives like Ethereum's Proof of Stake are the dominant force in crypto then yes, power consumption will not be a problem, but it is a very real problem now, and if it had simply been dismissed as FUD then solutions like Proof of Stake would never have been created).
imilk|4 years ago
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