I hate ties and collared shirts in general. Any wedding or other formal event where I have to wear a suit, I'm constantly tugging at my neck and ripping off my tie within 5 seconds of getting back in my car to drive home after the event. I have no idea why Steve Jobs wore his ubiquitous turtleneck, but I'd like to think the fact that it was a lot more comfortable than a shirt and tie was one of the reasons.
Also if I'm at any sort of business or social event and someone is comes up to me and says something like: "Hey bro, I've been sitting on this great idea for a startup that I came with when I got my MBA at Oswego College, and I need a cofounder. Here, sign this NDA and I can tell you about it. Okay fine, don't sign the NDA, bro. It's called 'Fratastic.com,' it's like frat-oriented humor videos. It's gonna totally be the next youtube, it's ridiculous how much money it's gonna make, bro. I have the domain name and everything, I just need someone to actually do all the coding and I'll do the marketing, bro. How does 4% equity sound to you?"
... well, that person is almost always wearing a shirt, coat, and tie.
So why would I want to dress up beyond a t-shirt and jeans? It makes me uncomfortable, it has nothing to do with my production, technical or otherwise, and I'm less likely to be associated with the expensively educated clueless douchebag I described above.
Also, I know a lot of hackers who do go to the gym or otherwise keep active and look just fine in a t-shirt.
I think he's not necessarily arguing against t-shirt and jeans (despite his claim that the "days of t-shirt and hoodies are over" - this may be an east coast thing?), but that fit matters. Just because you're writing code doesn't mean you have to wear the ratty black t-shirt that you haven't washed in weeks and the ripped jeans that you bought in high school.
I know that, like with the "frat boy" you described, there are also stereotypes with the stereotypical programmer in the black shirt with the stupid text on it. How do those people make you feel?
"my talent supersedes my necessity to follow the guidelines of society" is a fairly mindless observation.
90% of the "guidelines of society" is cargo cult thinking. The best developers are wired to avoid this kind of thinking. With respect to clothing, they optimize for comfort and individuality rather than looks. There's no big political statement going on here (and I'd argue that dressing casually is a practical choice rather than a sign that one is misinformed, sloppy or lazy).
I'm writing code this morning in my pajamas. This evening I'll go out to a mixer and I'll throw on a nice sport coat. Clothes are tools, and you need the right tools for the job. This is why electricians and plumbers don't wear neckties.
There is a signalling mechanism involved in dressing like a slob, every bit as loud as the signal you are trying to send out by dressing well.
In some contexts, putting on "whatever" sends the signal that I'm a slob, in other contexts it sends the signal that I have better / more important things to think about. In some contexts, dressing well sends out the signal that you are conscientious and trust-worthy, in other contexts it sends the signal that you are a vapid tool.
Your job is to tailor your message for the audience you are trying to reach.
(For guys) Girls like guys in ties. Show me a young woman who doesn’t like a well-dress guy and I will show you a liar. This doesn’t mean putting on a suit every time you step out of your apartment, but just putting on clothes that make you look good.
For long-term relationships, men are just as picky as women. Many men probably don't want to date the kind of woman who will be impressed by wearing a long string of cloth that symbolically represents the cutting off of bloodflow to the brain. Rather, men want to signal to women that they're looking for someone who will look beyond the surface appearance of fancy clothes and towards something more substantial.
Show me a young woman who finds the wearing of a tie the marginal tipping point at which she'll sleep with a guy in a tie and I'll show you a young woman who probably makes me think, "I can do better over the long term." And, even over the short term, I'm not convinced the tie is all that important.
Exactly. I once worded at a document imaging "VAR" (except that we added serious value) where my programming was behind half our sales and enabled another large fraction.
But I also had an informal role in sales. Our VP of sales, very much a "suit" (but by no means technically illiterate) was also our "closer", i.e. he was very good at getting sales closed, whoever was the lead salesman. Every once in a while he'd take me to a meeting at a customer's site, me wearing my normal Oxford shirt, black jeans (not ratty) and gray New Balance 90x running shoes.
And I would talk with all the people the customer brought to the meeting, suits and geeks, and convince them that, yes, we can do this. Now, I'm pretty sure what I said was the most important part of that ^_^, but we were very cognizant that by not wearing a suit or even a tie I was signaling "geek cred" or whatever you want to call it. And it worked beautifully.
(Well, being an introvert I wasn't good for anything the next day, but that's a small price to pay for a mid to high six figure sale.)
Come to think of it, I can see another non-dress signal that this sent. In talking to the customer, I would take ownership of some or all of what we were selling to them (the stuff I'd program or sometimes build (I like to build computers occasionally)) and I'll tell them who had ownership of the other stuff and implicitly that they could do it. I also signaled that I was pledging to deliver to them the whole thing, whomever did what.
This also had a good backend/after the sale function: our salesmen never sold something we "geeks" didn't think we could deliver (and we were experienced enough not to get into trouble unless some third party software we hadn't had experience with yet failed on us).
I actually enjoy fashion and try to dress well when the time is right, but coming from a farming background, you dress like a slob because you're going to come home covered in dirt, grease and who knows what else. As such, dressing up for work, even if it is in an office, seems pretty silly to me. Work is about getting stuff done, not looking pretty. Save the dress up for social occasions outside of the workplace.
> You should put on the best version of yourself when you go out in the world because that is a show of respect to the other people around you.
I try to dress well (note that there is a difference between dressing well and dressing formally) because I want to show respect to those around me. I find poorly dressed people almost as off-putting as catching a scent of someone who didn't put deodorant on seeing too much of someone who doesn't have the decency to wear a belt. Again, it's not about level of formality: someone wearing an ill-fitting suit isn't dressed as well as someone wearing properly fitting jeans and a polo.
Developers value elegant code as an indication of programming skill, so why not value elegant dress as an indication of interpersonal skills? (The answer is that a lot of developers don't value interpersonal skills at all).
I find this sentiment mildly offensive, for reasons I'm sure you can predict. I'm wearing a t-shirt covered in paint stains today and ripped up jeans, and I do not agree that I am expressing disrespect for you.
I find not agreeing with someone else's sensibilities (in fashion, in art, in cooking, in coding, or what- have- you) to be passive and innocuous.
I find "taking disrespect" from someone else's choices to be something other than those things.
(It's the sentiment I'm remarking on, not you; I do not find you to be offensive.)
I'm sitting here wearing a polo shirt, a pretty nice pair of slacks and leather shoes. And yes, a belt. I couldn't imagine being upset because someone showed a bit of belly or lower back because they didn't have a belt on. That's just the height of ... something I can't find a word for!
I value elegant dress as an indication that someone wants to look elegant, nothing more, nothing less.
Yet another prime example of "Never assume that other people think the same way you do".
You may believe that dressing "poorly" implies disrespect for others, but you're in the minority. Being offended over other peoples mode of dress is pretty lame.
It is trite to observe that hackers don’t like fancy clothes. Avi has learned that good clothes can actually be comfortable—the slacks that go with a business suit, for example, are really much more comfortable than blue jeans. And he has spent enough time with hackers to obtain the insight that is it not wearing suits that they object to, so much as getting them on. Which includes not only the donning process per se but also picking them out, maintaining them, and worrying whether they are still in style—this last being especially difficult for men who wear suits once every five years.
I once had lunch with PG after having come back from a VC meeting. I had just moved to California then and was wearing business attire. PG stopped mid-sentence to ask me if I had on french cuffs and then told me how investors like startup guys to be scrappy haha.
"And what would be wrong would be that how one presented oneself counted more than the quality of one's ideas. That's the problem with formality. Dressing up is not so much bad in itself. The problem is the receptor it binds to: dressing up is inevitably a substitute for good ideas. It is no coincidence that technically inept business types are known as "suits."
dressing up is inevitably a substitute for good ideas
This is perhaps a little strong, but I did think about this when I read this line from the original post:
You are building the future, so dress like it.
No. Engineering is about the things, not the people. Our goal is to draw attention to the work, not the worker.
There's a reason why Steve Jobs became famous for always wearing the same, very neutral uniform on stage. He does this because it really isn't about him. It's about the product. The product is the star.
Engineers dress like stagehands because that is our aspiration. The message we're sending is: Don't watch me. Watch the product. I'm focused on the product and you should be as well.
It really depends on who you're talking to, for the most part especially dealing with clients, you get better treatment wearing a suit.
However you dress, you should look good, if you're confident in t-shirts and khakis presenting to a room full of suits then do it, if you're more confident in a suit then wear a suit.
Dress for the situation but wear high quality clothes with the right fit. Just because its business attire doesn't mean its good clothing or that you're dressed well. Stand outside the local courthouse at lunch time and watch all the dumpy ill-fitting suits pour out and you'll see what I mean.
Fit and Quality are far more important than type of clothing.
True, but the reality is that clothing as a technology has evolved over a long history, and some types of clothing are more likely to provide the "right fit" than others, particular for folks non-ideal body forms.
If you're in good shape, you can find t-shirts and jeans that look pretty good, but even that isn't easy. If you're out of shape, it's nearly impossible. Conversely, oxford shirts, sports jackets and trousers have about 100 years of evolution in providing a good fit for all kinds of men's body shapes, and they're also far more amenable to alteration by a tailor (does anyone actually tailor their t-shirt?)
For myself, I due to an accident I had when a tutor / counsellor (door knob caught on the neck strap with id and sent me to the floor - lots of blood), I don't like wearing things around my neck including ties. I'm ok with slacks but not in the winter here because that's jeans weather and you never know when you might need to help someone out. Polos are ok and I mostly wear them instead of t-shirts.
I also grew up in an area where wearing a suit indicated that you were probably here to take money, land, or rights away. Suits were really the first sign not to trust that person. This belief is very hard to shake (along with the thought that anyone calling a noon meeting without providing food is sending a clear insulting message).
Ira Glass was once asked about how he became a great radio host [1]. His response was that he continued to work on his craft even when he knew it was terrible. Knowing your work is terrible is crucial because it means that you have taste - you know what needs to be done, and you know what would fulfill it, even if you don't have the ability to execute it.
Style is about taste. And note, style is not equivalent to 'dressing up'. Style is knowing what pieces go together to create an aesthetically pleasing form. Style is knowing your body type, your personality, and your needs and putting together outfits that compliment and combine those strengths.
When developers get made fun of for not dressing up, it's not because you're wearing a t-shirt and jeans. It's because you've put no thought into which t-shirt with what jeans. There's no thought about how the pieces fit together. There's no taste.
Taste is critical for us because it's what makes or breaks a product. What makes Apple great? Taste. What let Instagram beat out the plethora of other photo apps? Taste. What allowed Facebook to take over MySpace? Taste. Taste is what will give me confidence that when you are on my team, you will do exactly what is necessary to make us win.
Taste is imperative. Take every chance to show that you have it.
I know lots of people who work at Apple and I assure you their taste in clothing is not what's making the products great. When you argue that someone's taste in clothing is significant of their taste in other things, you risk being perceived as condescending.
I worked at Apple for 5 years. Some of the best engineers I know would routinely show up to work in pajamas. There are just as many, if not more, "poorly-dressed" people working there as at any other tech company.
The casual clothing trend, at least in Silicon Valley, has roots in 60's-70's counterculture. The idea that you need to wear a suit in order to do your job, or to dress like an IBM drone, was explicitly rejected, along with a whole slew of other ideas which were perceived as needing reexamination. Apple was one of the companies which best represented that counterculture influence and its success in shaking up entire industries. To tie them to some notion of stylish dress equaling success is ludicrous.
I think dressing up is fun. I love fashion, but I hate this sentiment:
"Unless you’re going to the gym twice per week, you probably won’t look good in a T-shirt."
Fuck that. We live in a society that is constantly telling us we look bad, unless we are skinny, unless we have "good" hair, unless we have clear, light-colored skin...
Fuck that. People are fucking beautiful. All kinds of people are fucking beautiful, even if they're wearing a t-shirt.
It's one thing to encourage people to take pride in their clothes. It's another to call them ugly, and feed into our culture's (literally) deadly skinny-worshipping obsession.
Different body types are flattered by different clothing styles. One of the great failures of modern fashion is the idea that the thing that Hot Celebrity wore and looked good in is going to be appropriate and good-looking on everyone else; that outfit might have made them look better but make you look worse.
Saying that isn't skinny-worshipping. In fact, it's almost the opposite of skinny-worshipping, because people that try to squeeze into Hot Celebrity's fashion are going to feel the need to skinny up in order to make it look good.
Rather, the OP's advice is to find something that fits you and is flattering to you; tight T-shirts typically don't really look good unless your chest measurement >= your waist measurement, but there are other things that will. That's a lot different than just saying "you look bad".
I don't think he was trying to "feed into our culture's (literally) deadly skinny-worshipping obsession." When most people buy t-shirts, they don't buy well fitted t-shirts. That goes for both fat and really skinny and tall people (i was part of the skinny and tall). I found that once I started working out a few times a week, I was actually able to fit in my clothes better. They wouldn't be so frickin' loose on me anymore. So on the contrary, I think his argument applies to both fat and skinny, and his observation has dual intent: be more healthy and fit better in your clothes.
A programmer from a very large computer company went to a software conference and then returned to report to his manager, saying: ``What sort of programmers work for other companies? They behaved badly and were unconcerned with appearances. Their hair was long and unkempt and their clothes were wrinkled and old. They crashed our hospitality suite and they made rude noises during my presentation.''
The manager said: ``I should have never sent you to the conference. Those programmers live beyond the physical world. They consider life absurd, an accidental coincidence. They come and go without knowing limitations. Without a care, they live only for their programs. Why should they bother with social conventions?
I'm glad to see someone else musing on something that I have always wondered about.
You don't have a wear a 3-piece suit to be taken seriously. But when you wear faded/ratty jeans and a t-shirt it's hard to be taken seriously. Look at the pictures of the Great Depression: every man on the street waiting in line wore a suit. Not just business shirts, a suit. And these were guys like dock workers, laborers, &c.
I think it's because of a counter-cultural movement of preferring ratty, grungy, grimey-looking things. And, lets face it, people do judge you by what they see.
I don't want to look like a 20-something guy in ratty pants and a t-shirt with some obscene rockstar; I want to be taken seriously, just like I try to take others (even a weirdo in a t-shirt) seriously.
> Look at the pictures of the Great Depression: every man on the street waiting in line wore a suit.
I think in the '30s a suit was just what men owned - a durable, practical, all purpose set of clothing. They'd wear the same to the beach, because that's what they had. It probably cost them a lot of money, and owning any more clothes would cost a lot more. It didn't mean the same thing it does now.
>> Developer culture is a meritocracy, and if you're putting out good code you can wear whatever the fuck you want.
Yeah. My problem with what you're saying is that if you're putting out great code, you can probably wear whatever the f you want.
But if "good" represents average, and you tell any competent employer that you can wear whatever the f you want, you're just telling him/her that you've got an attitude problem.
What does "dress better" mean, anyway? Once you start unpacking that phrase, you realize it has very little to do with optimizing functionality. It's not the same as "eat better" or "sleep better".
Imagine if someone showed up for a swim race in a suit and tie!
I read your post but I still don't know why I must care about fashion? I try to develop my programming skills, I try to educate myself, I try to be a kind person, I go to gym frequently and I eat well. But the fashion sense is not something I'm interested, I just want to be comfortable.
I checked Put This On and I didn't like the style.
Exactly - when I work, it's to get things done, not be part of a fashion show. You think Jobs, Zuck, or Brin care about being fashionable on the job?? I respect the OP's opinion, but it felt very high school-ish to me.
That said, I'm not against people dressing however they want. I don't roll into the office looking like a slob, but I definitely don't obsess about my outfit for the day.
I obsess more about the thought and effort put into the products I'm creating..
I work at a startup in San Francisco and I'm "that developer who wears a tie every day".
The traditional adage is that when you dress for success, people take you more seriously. I'd like to believe that this particular industry is beyond that, which may or may not be true, but the truth is that when you dress up, you take yourself more seriously.
The benefit of having everybody at the company know who I am is pretty nice, too.
"You’ve got nothing to lose, save for some “geek cred.”"
Maybe you underestimate the importance of feeling like you fit in. Being ostracized from your group is painful and can even lead to being left out of new information, like the up-and-coming programming languages, etc. It can lead to people saying, "He's not a team player" and it actually affecting your job.
Another problem is that you've defined 'better' as you see it, and not as your peers see it. You think you're better than them, but you aren't really. It's all an ego trip for you.
I read _Put This On_ (not because I aspire to "dress better", whichbelievemeanyonewhoknowsme &c &c but because it's well written and enthusiastic and I'd read a blog about Hummel figurines if it was graceful and engaging) and I think "ego trip" is the wrong word here.
I think for these "dressing up when their social situation doesn't really demand it" people, dressing up is a hobby. They'd (a) like it people shared their hobby, because that's more fun, and they'd (b) like not to be judged based on that hobby, which is what happens to developers who show up in ties.
Dressing differently is not necessarily dressing worse. Personally, when I see someone that obviously spent an extra 30-60 minutes getting ready in the morning to make themselves appear to be a professional, my first impression isn't "This guy is really professional". Instead, it is "what is this guy trying to hide?", or "does this guy think appearances are more important than results?" You really shouldn't assume you're making a good first impression because you're wearing a tie. It all depends on what the atmosphere of the workplace is.
Why is the assumption that a T-shirt and a hoodie "worse dressed?" There are fricking $500 designer hoodies out there if you want one.
Anyway, the entire article is silly. Grownups know that some people will judge them based on how they dress. Sometimes we care, sometimes we don't, and so we dress accordingly. I'm not going to give a presentation to our Senior Business Team dressed in a Linux User Group t-shirt and ragged jeans, but don't expect me in a suit at any other time if I don't have to be.
[+] [-] nhashem|14 years ago|reply
Also if I'm at any sort of business or social event and someone is comes up to me and says something like: "Hey bro, I've been sitting on this great idea for a startup that I came with when I got my MBA at Oswego College, and I need a cofounder. Here, sign this NDA and I can tell you about it. Okay fine, don't sign the NDA, bro. It's called 'Fratastic.com,' it's like frat-oriented humor videos. It's gonna totally be the next youtube, it's ridiculous how much money it's gonna make, bro. I have the domain name and everything, I just need someone to actually do all the coding and I'll do the marketing, bro. How does 4% equity sound to you?"
... well, that person is almost always wearing a shirt, coat, and tie.
So why would I want to dress up beyond a t-shirt and jeans? It makes me uncomfortable, it has nothing to do with my production, technical or otherwise, and I'm less likely to be associated with the expensively educated clueless douchebag I described above.
Also, I know a lot of hackers who do go to the gym or otherwise keep active and look just fine in a t-shirt.
[+] [-] tedkalaw|14 years ago|reply
I know that, like with the "frat boy" you described, there are also stereotypes with the stereotypical programmer in the black shirt with the stupid text on it. How do those people make you feel?
[+] [-] kellysutton|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alexsb92|14 years ago|reply
The way i understood it, that was his point as well. Unless you mean to say "...who don't go to the gym..."
[+] [-] jeffreymcmanus|14 years ago|reply
90% of the "guidelines of society" is cargo cult thinking. The best developers are wired to avoid this kind of thinking. With respect to clothing, they optimize for comfort and individuality rather than looks. There's no big political statement going on here (and I'd argue that dressing casually is a practical choice rather than a sign that one is misinformed, sloppy or lazy).
I'm writing code this morning in my pajamas. This evening I'll go out to a mixer and I'll throw on a nice sport coat. Clothes are tools, and you need the right tools for the job. This is why electricians and plumbers don't wear neckties.
[+] [-] steverb|14 years ago|reply
In some contexts, putting on "whatever" sends the signal that I'm a slob, in other contexts it sends the signal that I have better / more important things to think about. In some contexts, dressing well sends out the signal that you are conscientious and trust-worthy, in other contexts it sends the signal that you are a vapid tool.
Your job is to tailor your message for the audience you are trying to reach.
[+] [-] jseliger|14 years ago|reply
(For guys) Girls like guys in ties. Show me a young woman who doesn’t like a well-dress guy and I will show you a liar. This doesn’t mean putting on a suit every time you step out of your apartment, but just putting on clothes that make you look good.
For long-term relationships, men are just as picky as women. Many men probably don't want to date the kind of woman who will be impressed by wearing a long string of cloth that symbolically represents the cutting off of bloodflow to the brain. Rather, men want to signal to women that they're looking for someone who will look beyond the surface appearance of fancy clothes and towards something more substantial.
Show me a young woman who finds the wearing of a tie the marginal tipping point at which she'll sleep with a guy in a tie and I'll show you a young woman who probably makes me think, "I can do better over the long term." And, even over the short term, I'm not convinced the tie is all that important.
[+] [-] hga|14 years ago|reply
But I also had an informal role in sales. Our VP of sales, very much a "suit" (but by no means technically illiterate) was also our "closer", i.e. he was very good at getting sales closed, whoever was the lead salesman. Every once in a while he'd take me to a meeting at a customer's site, me wearing my normal Oxford shirt, black jeans (not ratty) and gray New Balance 90x running shoes.
And I would talk with all the people the customer brought to the meeting, suits and geeks, and convince them that, yes, we can do this. Now, I'm pretty sure what I said was the most important part of that ^_^, but we were very cognizant that by not wearing a suit or even a tie I was signaling "geek cred" or whatever you want to call it. And it worked beautifully.
(Well, being an introvert I wasn't good for anything the next day, but that's a small price to pay for a mid to high six figure sale.)
Come to think of it, I can see another non-dress signal that this sent. In talking to the customer, I would take ownership of some or all of what we were selling to them (the stuff I'd program or sometimes build (I like to build computers occasionally)) and I'll tell them who had ownership of the other stuff and implicitly that they could do it. I also signaled that I was pledging to deliver to them the whole thing, whomever did what.
This also had a good backend/after the sale function: our salesmen never sold something we "geeks" didn't think we could deliver (and we were experienced enough not to get into trouble unless some third party software we hadn't had experience with yet failed on us).
[+] [-] randomdata|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] martingordon|14 years ago|reply
> You should put on the best version of yourself when you go out in the world because that is a show of respect to the other people around you.
I try to dress well (note that there is a difference between dressing well and dressing formally) because I want to show respect to those around me. I find poorly dressed people almost as off-putting as catching a scent of someone who didn't put deodorant on seeing too much of someone who doesn't have the decency to wear a belt. Again, it's not about level of formality: someone wearing an ill-fitting suit isn't dressed as well as someone wearing properly fitting jeans and a polo.
Developers value elegant code as an indication of programming skill, so why not value elegant dress as an indication of interpersonal skills? (The answer is that a lot of developers don't value interpersonal skills at all).
"Why This Matters" from Jesse at Put This On is a good read: http://putthison.com/post/665640307/why-this-matters
[+] [-] tptacek|14 years ago|reply
I find not agreeing with someone else's sensibilities (in fashion, in art, in cooking, in coding, or what- have- you) to be passive and innocuous.
I find "taking disrespect" from someone else's choices to be something other than those things.
(It's the sentiment I'm remarking on, not you; I do not find you to be offensive.)
[+] [-] HeyLaughingBoy|14 years ago|reply
Are you fucking KIDDING me?
I'm sitting here wearing a polo shirt, a pretty nice pair of slacks and leather shoes. And yes, a belt. I couldn't imagine being upset because someone showed a bit of belly or lower back because they didn't have a belt on. That's just the height of ... something I can't find a word for!
I value elegant dress as an indication that someone wants to look elegant, nothing more, nothing less.
[+] [-] kstenerud|14 years ago|reply
You may believe that dressing "poorly" implies disrespect for others, but you're in the minority. Being offended over other peoples mode of dress is pretty lame.
[+] [-] ginzasparrow|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] protomyth|14 years ago|reply
I see a lot of fairly well dressed farmers wearing suspenders. Must be an region thing.
[+] [-] shrikant|14 years ago|reply
It is trite to observe that hackers don’t like fancy clothes. Avi has learned that good clothes can actually be comfortable—the slacks that go with a business suit, for example, are really much more comfortable than blue jeans. And he has spent enough time with hackers to obtain the insight that is it not wearing suits that they object to, so much as getting them on. Which includes not only the donning process per se but also picking them out, maintaining them, and worrying whether they are still in style—this last being especially difficult for men who wear suits once every five years.
[+] [-] PStamatiou|14 years ago|reply
And from a PG essay http://www.paulgraham.com/bubble.html
"And what would be wrong would be that how one presented oneself counted more than the quality of one's ideas. That's the problem with formality. Dressing up is not so much bad in itself. The problem is the receptor it binds to: dressing up is inevitably a substitute for good ideas. It is no coincidence that technically inept business types are known as "suits."
[+] [-] mechanical_fish|14 years ago|reply
This is perhaps a little strong, but I did think about this when I read this line from the original post:
You are building the future, so dress like it.
No. Engineering is about the things, not the people. Our goal is to draw attention to the work, not the worker.
There's a reason why Steve Jobs became famous for always wearing the same, very neutral uniform on stage. He does this because it really isn't about him. It's about the product. The product is the star.
Engineers dress like stagehands because that is our aspiration. The message we're sending is: Don't watch me. Watch the product. I'm focused on the product and you should be as well.
[+] [-] slantyyz|14 years ago|reply
I thought that term originated back when working people had to wear uniforms, and that it was more of a class separation thing.
[+] [-] kellysutton|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fleitz|14 years ago|reply
However you dress, you should look good, if you're confident in t-shirts and khakis presenting to a room full of suits then do it, if you're more confident in a suit then wear a suit.
[+] [-] brm|14 years ago|reply
Dress for the situation but wear high quality clothes with the right fit. Just because its business attire doesn't mean its good clothing or that you're dressed well. Stand outside the local courthouse at lunch time and watch all the dumpy ill-fitting suits pour out and you'll see what I mean.
Fit and Quality are far more important than type of clothing.
[+] [-] kitsune_|14 years ago|reply
One of the worst fashion sins are cheap ill-fitting 99$ suits. Man...
My recommendation guys, buy some nice shoes and a coat.
[+] [-] tomkarlo|14 years ago|reply
If you're in good shape, you can find t-shirts and jeans that look pretty good, but even that isn't easy. If you're out of shape, it's nearly impossible. Conversely, oxford shirts, sports jackets and trousers have about 100 years of evolution in providing a good fit for all kinds of men's body shapes, and they're also far more amenable to alteration by a tailor (does anyone actually tailor their t-shirt?)
[+] [-] protomyth|14 years ago|reply
I also grew up in an area where wearing a suit indicated that you were probably here to take money, land, or rights away. Suits were really the first sign not to trust that person. This belief is very hard to shake (along with the thought that anyone calling a noon meeting without providing food is sending a clear insulting message).
I hated my time in places that required a suit and tie and believe that culture is corrupting ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3015969 ).
[+] [-] ryanlchan|14 years ago|reply
Ira Glass was once asked about how he became a great radio host [1]. His response was that he continued to work on his craft even when he knew it was terrible. Knowing your work is terrible is crucial because it means that you have taste - you know what needs to be done, and you know what would fulfill it, even if you don't have the ability to execute it.
Style is about taste. And note, style is not equivalent to 'dressing up'. Style is knowing what pieces go together to create an aesthetically pleasing form. Style is knowing your body type, your personality, and your needs and putting together outfits that compliment and combine those strengths.
When developers get made fun of for not dressing up, it's not because you're wearing a t-shirt and jeans. It's because you've put no thought into which t-shirt with what jeans. There's no thought about how the pieces fit together. There's no taste.
Taste is critical for us because it's what makes or breaks a product. What makes Apple great? Taste. What let Instagram beat out the plethora of other photo apps? Taste. What allowed Facebook to take over MySpace? Taste. Taste is what will give me confidence that when you are on my team, you will do exactly what is necessary to make us win.
Taste is imperative. Take every chance to show that you have it.
[1] http://kottke.org/11/04/your-taste-is-why-your-own-work-disa...
[+] [-] tptacek|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wooster|14 years ago|reply
The casual clothing trend, at least in Silicon Valley, has roots in 60's-70's counterculture. The idea that you need to wear a suit in order to do your job, or to dress like an IBM drone, was explicitly rejected, along with a whole slew of other ideas which were perceived as needing reexamination. Apple was one of the companies which best represented that counterculture influence and its success in shaking up entire industries. To tie them to some notion of stylish dress equaling success is ludicrous.
[+] [-] erikpukinskis|14 years ago|reply
"Unless you’re going to the gym twice per week, you probably won’t look good in a T-shirt."
Fuck that. We live in a society that is constantly telling us we look bad, unless we are skinny, unless we have "good" hair, unless we have clear, light-colored skin...
Fuck that. People are fucking beautiful. All kinds of people are fucking beautiful, even if they're wearing a t-shirt.
It's one thing to encourage people to take pride in their clothes. It's another to call them ugly, and feed into our culture's (literally) deadly skinny-worshipping obsession.
[+] [-] blahedo|14 years ago|reply
Saying that isn't skinny-worshipping. In fact, it's almost the opposite of skinny-worshipping, because people that try to squeeze into Hot Celebrity's fashion are going to feel the need to skinny up in order to make it look good.
Rather, the OP's advice is to find something that fits you and is flattering to you; tight T-shirts typically don't really look good unless your chest measurement >= your waist measurement, but there are other things that will. That's a lot different than just saying "you look bad".
[+] [-] alexsb92|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Maci|14 years ago|reply
The manager said: ``I should have never sent you to the conference. Those programmers live beyond the physical world. They consider life absurd, an accidental coincidence. They come and go without knowing limitations. Without a care, they live only for their programs. Why should they bother with social conventions?
``They are alive within the Tao.''
2.3 - http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html
[+] [-] trebor|14 years ago|reply
You don't have a wear a 3-piece suit to be taken seriously. But when you wear faded/ratty jeans and a t-shirt it's hard to be taken seriously. Look at the pictures of the Great Depression: every man on the street waiting in line wore a suit. Not just business shirts, a suit. And these were guys like dock workers, laborers, &c.
I think it's because of a counter-cultural movement of preferring ratty, grungy, grimey-looking things. And, lets face it, people do judge you by what they see.
I don't want to look like a 20-something guy in ratty pants and a t-shirt with some obscene rockstar; I want to be taken seriously, just like I try to take others (even a weirdo in a t-shirt) seriously.
[+] [-] Joeboy|14 years ago|reply
I think in the '30s a suit was just what men owned - a durable, practical, all purpose set of clothing. They'd wear the same to the beach, because that's what they had. It probably cost them a lot of money, and owning any more clothes would cost a lot more. It didn't mean the same thing it does now.
[+] [-] comice|14 years ago|reply
"You are building the future, so dress like it."
If we're building the future, we'll build one where we can dress how we like.
"Even Zuck has been sporting a suit more and more. He’s the last person that needs to impress someone based on how he dresses."
Tell that to his shareholders.
"It’s a “my talent supersedes my necessity to follow the guidelines of society.”"
If people like you are going to speak the way you do on behalf of society, maybe this society thing isn't for me.
[+] [-] nateberkopec|14 years ago|reply
My favorite part of the Zucks mythos is the flip-flops. What he wore didn't matter, because what he and Facebook were doing was so amazing.
Most people just happen to want to wear t-shirts, shorts, and flip-flops.
[+] [-] slantyyz|14 years ago|reply
Yeah. My problem with what you're saying is that if you're putting out great code, you can probably wear whatever the f you want.
But if "good" represents average, and you tell any competent employer that you can wear whatever the f you want, you're just telling him/her that you've got an attitude problem.
[+] [-] troymc|14 years ago|reply
Imagine if someone showed up for a swim race in a suit and tie!
[+] [-] earlyriser|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] equalarrow|14 years ago|reply
That said, I'm not against people dressing however they want. I don't roll into the office looking like a slob, but I definitely don't obsess about my outfit for the day.
I obsess more about the thought and effort put into the products I'm creating..
[+] [-] puls|14 years ago|reply
The traditional adage is that when you dress for success, people take you more seriously. I'd like to believe that this particular industry is beyond that, which may or may not be true, but the truth is that when you dress up, you take yourself more seriously.
The benefit of having everybody at the company know who I am is pretty nice, too.
[+] [-] wccrawford|14 years ago|reply
Maybe you underestimate the importance of feeling like you fit in. Being ostracized from your group is painful and can even lead to being left out of new information, like the up-and-coming programming languages, etc. It can lead to people saying, "He's not a team player" and it actually affecting your job.
Another problem is that you've defined 'better' as you see it, and not as your peers see it. You think you're better than them, but you aren't really. It's all an ego trip for you.
[+] [-] tptacek|14 years ago|reply
I think for these "dressing up when their social situation doesn't really demand it" people, dressing up is a hobby. They'd (a) like it people shared their hobby, because that's more fun, and they'd (b) like not to be judged based on that hobby, which is what happens to developers who show up in ties.
[+] [-] arcdrag|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HeyLaughingBoy|14 years ago|reply
Anyway, the entire article is silly. Grownups know that some people will judge them based on how they dress. Sometimes we care, sometimes we don't, and so we dress accordingly. I'm not going to give a presentation to our Senior Business Team dressed in a Linux User Group t-shirt and ragged jeans, but don't expect me in a suit at any other time if I don't have to be.