I find that if I get eight hours of sleep at night, I can move mountains. But if I only get 7.75 hours of sleep or less, my eyes feel tired all day and I'm only half as productive. I've never understood why there is such a marked difference between eight hours of sleep and almost anything less than eight hours. There's something chemically going on inside that I don't understand. The problem I'm having now is that I can get a good five or six hours but I wake up after that fifth or sixth hour and can't get back to sleep long enough to get that ideal eight. This problem is seriously affecting my career and I don't know what to do. I do do moderate to vigorous exercise five times a week but that doesn't always help.
I have a theory that there are two variables that impact my subjective feeling of having a good night’s sleep.
The first is whether I wake up at the right part of the sleep cycle. For you that might mean 7.75 is when you’re deeply asleep while 7.5 or 8 might be a better time to wake up. Crucially for me it also means even if I get more than eight hours I still feel like garbage if I wake up and get out of bed at the wrong part of the cycle.
The second variable is how much sleep I get. I might wake up in the right part of the cycle but if I got 6.5 hours of sleep I start to drag, especially in the afternoon. That’s where avoiding activities like eating before bed or drinking alcohol helps. That’s also where doing a 4-5 mile run during the day (not too close to bedtime) helps because I’m more likely to maintain sleep for a full eight hours.
I had sleep issues for years until I discovered that I'm allergic to dust and pollen. Washing my sheets every few days, vacuuming them with a small hand-held vacuum cleaner before sleeping, and using an air filter in my room dramatically improved my sleep.
Other things that have interfered with my sleep in some form or another are vitamin deficiencies, exercising way too much at once, caffeine late in the evening, alcohol, and anxiety.
Despite all the research, I haven't found screen time to have any impact at all on my sleep. I sometimes play the Switch in bed right before I crash, and it doesn't seem to affect anything.
Edit: oh, another thing. A bit of music or a podcast really helps me fall asleep faster. They help me turn off all the work-related thoughts in my head and focus on something entirely different.
This is very much me to a T, even including waking up far too early and having difficulty getting back to sleep. It's absolutely bizarre how it seems like difference in 15-30 minutes can have such a negative effect. Hope you can solve your sleep issues!
Get analytical with you sleep. Did you drink caffeine after 12pm? Make a log of foods you eat? Are you practicing good sleep hygiene? Cortisol levels can cause issues with sleep cycles.
6 hours of sleep are enough for most people physically and the rest is more tiredness than any reduced ability. It's possible the other negative effects you are experiencing are mostly placebo.
I find that making sure the room is still fairly dark in the morning makes it much easier for me to fall back asleep in case i've woken up "too early".
I also started sleeping with earplugs in the last 2 years or so to make sure morning city traffic noises don't wake me up.
And lastly, don't reach to the phone to look at the time, better have a regular clock which doesn't have all that extra stimuli.
Just chiming in with a hearty +1. My numbers are slightly different though. If I get 7.25 hours of sleep or more, I'm feeling great. If I get 7 or less - depending on how much less - tired eyes, headaches, trouble focusing, worse strength/endurance, etc. And the hilarious thing is my brain seems hell-bent on getting exactly 7. It's hard for me to get that extra 0.25 hours. :|
There are a number of things you can do to help your sleep and a quick search will turn up the list. No doubt you’ve looked at this before but I found it was helpful to go for blood on that list and really try to do everything fully (in addition to the exercise.
There was a recent article about vit D and sleep that is worth checking out. Supplementing with D seems to have helped me quite a bit.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28770869
I would also check out a few other potential things that could be affecting your sleep that might not show up in a sleep hygiene listicle, like prostate problems, metabolism changes, CO2 concentration in your sleeping room, sunlight exposure and undetected sleep apnea.
I've found that as I get older if I ingest any remotely psychoactive substances (caffeine, alcohol), I'll have difficulty getting a full 8 hours of sleep. Same applies with stress. The problem is compounded if I'm not exercising regularly or if there are any gaps with my nutrition.
I've struggled with sleep for various reasons for most of my life, and I've put a lot of energy into diagnosing the disruptions. Have you made any observations about the pattern of waking that could provide clues about why it's happening? I'm happy to share a few of the discoveries I've made for myself over the years in case one of them leads you down a productive path.
I had a horrible bout of insomnia early in my career. I'd never given much thought to depression, but it turned out to be the culprit. In my experience, even low grade depression or anxiety (including seasonal affective disorder) can have a major impact on sleep.
I have chronically tight hip flexors due to a spinal injury and years of desk work. At some point I discovered that a quick hip flexor stretch plus sitting in a deep squat for 30 - 60 seconds right before bed is really helpful for me falling asleep and staying asleep.
In the last two years I noticed that my sleep quality really tanked. At some point, I decided to start monitoring my oxygen levels with a continuous monitor (from Wellue) even though I don't have much of an issue snoring or other signs associated with sleep apnea. After observing increasingly frequent dips into the 75 - 85% range, my doctor ordered a sleep study and we confirmed a central sleep apnea diagnosis.
The CPAP definitely wasn't an immediate boon to my sleep, but I have noticed the difference now that I'm maintaining a healthy oxygen level through the night. Even with that improvement, my overall sleep quality is still pretty crap and that can still take a toll on my mental acuity during the day. I did make one more useful observation in the past month when I noticed that I was waking up more and more frequently from shoulder pain. I think that this problem has been building for awhile, and I've had some luck already rearranging pillows to reduce the pressure (plus exercises and stretches).
Whether or not any of these are familiar, I hope you can get to the bottom of the issue quickly. Hang in there, and don't forget to be patient with yourself as you work through it.
Consider CBD. It knocks me out if I'm restless. You'll likely want pure CBD, which doesn't get you high. Just chilled out. Worrying about your perfect 8 is probably making things worse, so finding place of peace regarding sleep will also help. But CBD is probably the quick and dirty solution.
Wondering if anyone on this thread who’s felt this way has been able to try out biphasic sleep and can report if it made a difference? The idea of a “second sleep” after an hour or so awake seems to be gaining prevalence in popular media as something humans used to do naturally.
It's the exact same for me. It's like at eight hours exactly something "clicks" and you're fresh, but anything before that is a weird uncompleted process where I feel like garbage all day yet I can't go back to sleep. I can even feel the weight of my eye bags. Then, I take a short (20 min) nap at some point in the day and I'm completely recovered.
It's frustrating because just 15 more minutes would have prevented all that suffering.
About 10 years ago, I started taking a 1h - 2h walk almost every day, before the walk I buy a coffee to go. It's easily the best part of my day which I look forward to after waking up.
So last week there was a thread about a scientist who wrote a book: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30381000
and I am reading a copy of the book from my local library and it actually covers this topic. The relevant part of theory (which has been shown to be true for every species they measured with doubly labelled water/urine) is that all mammals are calorie restrained - there's a maximum amount of calories that can be eaten, and there's a maximum amount of calories that can be burned, the range for humans is not that big, humans have a much higher calorie per weight budget than our ape/monkey cousins, the extant hunter gatherer societies exhibit the same behavior, and that being inactive like many modern humans means we have excess calories to burn with our bodys involuntary system like the immune system (one of the hunter gatherer societies had high immune system activity because of endemic worm/disease infection to use up a lot of calories), so the hypothesis is being physically active (up to a point) tamps down the activity of involuntary systems that do not need to be so active.
This might help somebody but it's not super related to the article: in 2012 I had very bad and worsening depression and anxiety even though I had great, stress-free life. My doctor immediately suspected some deficiency in minerals/vitamins. We did a million tests and nothing out of the ordinary. Long story short, we did a sleep test and turns out I had horrible sleep because of my congested nose caused by sinusitis! Sleep is incredibly important.
Were you totally unaware of how bad you sleep was?
Did you have any other symptoms related to poor sleep?
I ask because I have structural nasal issues that I believe are affecting my sleep, but I'm terribly afraid of surgical correction due to the risk of Empty Nose Syndrome. My fitness tracker says my sleep is okay, but I'm starting to doubt it.
Similarly: My anxiety also had a physical cause: pinched spinal nerves. Resolved thru surgery, which was done for other reasons.
I had wrestled with anxiety, insomnia, etc. for ages. Tried everything with no improvement. None of my care providers ever suggested a possible physical cause.
I had something similar, but it was due to being disturbed by my partner throughout the night. We bought a SOLID king size bedframe and memory foam mattress and now I don't even notice when my partner is also in bed.
… in which someone discovers that practical examples of physical exercise (walking, running) aren’t mentioned in the original research paper.
It’s a valid observation, but it’s then also a critique of making scientific research accessible to a general audience. I don’t see a problem with providing implied examples after citing research that didn’t mention examples.
I've long wondered why some people can get by with little or no exercise and yet seem to live relatively healthy/happy lives. My Mom who's 66 doesn't exercise, other than a little walking, and while she's overweight, she always has energy, a good mood, and seems really resistant to the negative impacts of stressful situations.
On the other hand, If I don't get at least an hour of exercise a day, I start to slip into fatigue, anxiety, and depression. I usually walk for 1.5 hours a day and hit the gym 3-5 days a week for cardio and weight training. Fortunately, I do love being active, and I wouldn't want to be more sedentary anyway. I've never had the greatest sleep quality (falling/staying asleep isn't a problem, deep sleep is), and I wonder if I've just been compensating all this time, and those who naturally sleep really well can do better with a sedentary life.
If you respond well to exercise it might be worth a shot checking for tense muscle
related causes. Physical exercise (esp. heavy weights) might inadvertently work as
a relaxation technique for tensed muscles (similar to the way PNF works [0]).
Some causes for tension I know:
- Neck -- c0 to c2 joint related issues; esp. with the Forward Neck Syndrome,
can tense neck muscles and cause headaches. It's even speculated that
this might be a common cause for migraine [1]
- Dental. If not everything is aligned in the "zero" position, muscles actively
work and overwork to compensate. They are commonly called Temporomandibular
disorders (TMD) [2]
- Eye. Eyestrain can develop, if an eye works too much for too long, hunts for focus,
it can tense forehead and other facial muscles. [3]
and so on, down every joint in the body.
You might have built up some high pain resistance through the years and not even be aware this is happening. This can lead to physiological stress, which in turn interferes with the deep sleep phase (cortisol and other stress hormones keep us half awake for scanning the environment for danger).
Because people conflate exercise (gym, running, whatever) and activity. I can show you many people who degraded massively by not being active - i.e. not consistently walking and using their muscles (there's a reason why physical rehab involves actually moving). Where people are misled is thinking that you have to attend a gym or go running to be healthy - you don't.
The grim reality is that you probably don't see many of the people that faded away and physically degraded by not being at all physically active, because they're very probably elderly and essentially housebound.
It's called the fitness & health industry, not charity. It's in their financial interests to exaggerate or oversell the health consequences of not doing exercise. It comes down to genes. Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger are both in their 90s and do not exercise and have crappy diets yet both are healthy and productive. Another example is William Shatner, who is also obese and just went to space at 90.
I have always had insomnia for 20+ years. It all started with becoming hyperthyroid and subsequently hypo (with radio iodide). I was able to bring it under control with cbt-i. But i find that if i have a special event (it could be a day trip, meeting etc) next day, i cannot sleep even a wink. And sure enough suffer the next day. The best i can describe the feeling when trying to sleep is either sitting in a tree branch and not trying to fall or driving and trying to stay alert. I have managed so far, but i am not able to sleep before any job interview while i am trying to change job. (all the leetcode questions are not helping)
There is a chemical which can be taken in 1-2gram amounts daily that will give you a six pack just from a couple hours of walking, its legal and its used for other things but it has its "side effects" so needs to be complimented with other chemicals in order to mitigate said "side effects", and thats when you start going down a long path of chemical and biological pathways.
The thing with chemicals is you need to take them at the right time of day in the right amount, take them at the wrong time and your sleep will not be good and/or you will be feeling tired all day.
Most multivitamins can be considered harmful for the above reason but the range of chemicals will offset some of that harm.
Sure exercise can help for pumping blood, raising body temperature, but could you get away with little or not exercise? Probably, if you can control the chemical intake to compliment your food/drink intake, whilst bearing in mind that food/drink already limits your lifespan.
It’s really tough when the first summary of a study is incorrect because it sets the tone for all subsequent coverage. It is so common with scientific studies.
[+] [-] robertlf|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dopylitty|4 years ago|reply
The first is whether I wake up at the right part of the sleep cycle. For you that might mean 7.75 is when you’re deeply asleep while 7.5 or 8 might be a better time to wake up. Crucially for me it also means even if I get more than eight hours I still feel like garbage if I wake up and get out of bed at the wrong part of the cycle.
The second variable is how much sleep I get. I might wake up in the right part of the cycle but if I got 6.5 hours of sleep I start to drag, especially in the afternoon. That’s where avoiding activities like eating before bed or drinking alcohol helps. That’s also where doing a 4-5 mile run during the day (not too close to bedtime) helps because I’m more likely to maintain sleep for a full eight hours.
[+] [-] GeneralMaximus|4 years ago|reply
Other things that have interfered with my sleep in some form or another are vitamin deficiencies, exercising way too much at once, caffeine late in the evening, alcohol, and anxiety.
Despite all the research, I haven't found screen time to have any impact at all on my sleep. I sometimes play the Switch in bed right before I crash, and it doesn't seem to affect anything.
Edit: oh, another thing. A bit of music or a podcast really helps me fall asleep faster. They help me turn off all the work-related thoughts in my head and focus on something entirely different.
[+] [-] vocram|4 years ago|reply
What’s worse, I feel tired the whole day, but not that much anymore towards night.
[+] [-] hornd|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bytemilk|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tenoke|4 years ago|reply
E.g. look at the studies discussed here https://guzey.com/theses-on-sleep/
I used to be in the same position and am now better by just not worrying about sleeping less or feeling tired when I do.
[+] [-] mupuff1234|4 years ago|reply
I find that making sure the room is still fairly dark in the morning makes it much easier for me to fall back asleep in case i've woken up "too early".
I also started sleeping with earplugs in the last 2 years or so to make sure morning city traffic noises don't wake me up.
And lastly, don't reach to the phone to look at the time, better have a regular clock which doesn't have all that extra stimuli.
[+] [-] hubridnoxx|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] doitLP|4 years ago|reply
There was a recent article about vit D and sleep that is worth checking out. Supplementing with D seems to have helped me quite a bit. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28770869
I would also check out a few other potential things that could be affecting your sleep that might not show up in a sleep hygiene listicle, like prostate problems, metabolism changes, CO2 concentration in your sleeping room, sunlight exposure and undetected sleep apnea.
[+] [-] yowlingcat|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cjcampbell|4 years ago|reply
I had a horrible bout of insomnia early in my career. I'd never given much thought to depression, but it turned out to be the culprit. In my experience, even low grade depression or anxiety (including seasonal affective disorder) can have a major impact on sleep.
I have chronically tight hip flexors due to a spinal injury and years of desk work. At some point I discovered that a quick hip flexor stretch plus sitting in a deep squat for 30 - 60 seconds right before bed is really helpful for me falling asleep and staying asleep.
In the last two years I noticed that my sleep quality really tanked. At some point, I decided to start monitoring my oxygen levels with a continuous monitor (from Wellue) even though I don't have much of an issue snoring or other signs associated with sleep apnea. After observing increasingly frequent dips into the 75 - 85% range, my doctor ordered a sleep study and we confirmed a central sleep apnea diagnosis.
The CPAP definitely wasn't an immediate boon to my sleep, but I have noticed the difference now that I'm maintaining a healthy oxygen level through the night. Even with that improvement, my overall sleep quality is still pretty crap and that can still take a toll on my mental acuity during the day. I did make one more useful observation in the past month when I noticed that I was waking up more and more frequently from shoulder pain. I think that this problem has been building for awhile, and I've had some luck already rearranging pillows to reduce the pressure (plus exercises and stretches).
Whether or not any of these are familiar, I hope you can get to the bottom of the issue quickly. Hang in there, and don't forget to be patient with yourself as you work through it.
[+] [-] rramadass|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rg111|4 years ago|reply
If I wake up at 11 in the morning after 4 hours of sleep, I am much more energetic than after 7 hours of sleep if I wake up at 5 or 6 in the morning.
If I sleep less, of course I feel sleepy sooner in the evening. But never have had energy issues.
OTOH, 8-8.5 hours of sleep anytime is optimal for my energy.
I have seen that I am outright miserable after 6 hours of sleep and waking up at 6 although I am fully productive after 4 hours and waking up at 11.
[+] [-] exo-pla-net|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pcc|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] syspec|4 years ago|reply
The only thing that worked for me is Trazadone
[+] [-] baby|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kvhdude|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway5848|4 years ago|reply
It's frustrating because just 15 more minutes would have prevented all that suffering.
[+] [-] RivieraKid|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stevenwoo|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] angrais|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sam_letter|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lr4444lr|4 years ago|reply
Did you have any other symptoms related to poor sleep?
I ask because I have structural nasal issues that I believe are affecting my sleep, but I'm terribly afraid of surgical correction due to the risk of Empty Nose Syndrome. My fitness tracker says my sleep is okay, but I'm starting to doubt it.
What kind of sleep study did you get done?
[+] [-] specialist|4 years ago|reply
I had wrestled with anxiety, insomnia, etc. for ages. Tried everything with no improvement. None of my care providers ever suggested a possible physical cause.
[+] [-] __turbobrew__|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kowlo|4 years ago|reply
Breath right strips help a little
[+] [-] dchuk|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jschulenklopper|4 years ago|reply
It’s a valid observation, but it’s then also a critique of making scientific research accessible to a general audience. I don’t see a problem with providing implied examples after citing research that didn’t mention examples.
[+] [-] _9omd|4 years ago|reply
On the other hand, If I don't get at least an hour of exercise a day, I start to slip into fatigue, anxiety, and depression. I usually walk for 1.5 hours a day and hit the gym 3-5 days a week for cardio and weight training. Fortunately, I do love being active, and I wouldn't want to be more sedentary anyway. I've never had the greatest sleep quality (falling/staying asleep isn't a problem, deep sleep is), and I wonder if I've just been compensating all this time, and those who naturally sleep really well can do better with a sedentary life.
[+] [-] eurekin|4 years ago|reply
Some causes for tension I know:
- Neck -- c0 to c2 joint related issues; esp. with the Forward Neck Syndrome, can tense neck muscles and cause headaches. It's even speculated that this might be a common cause for migraine [1]
- Dental. If not everything is aligned in the "zero" position, muscles actively work and overwork to compensate. They are commonly called Temporomandibular disorders (TMD) [2]
- Eye. Eyestrain can develop, if an eye works too much for too long, hunts for focus, it can tense forehead and other facial muscles. [3]
and so on, down every joint in the body.
You might have built up some high pain resistance through the years and not even be aware this is happening. This can lead to physiological stress, which in turn interferes with the deep sleep phase (cortisol and other stress hormones keep us half awake for scanning the environment for danger).
[0] https://mediphysio.com.au/pnf-stretching-technique/#:~:text=....
[1] https://www.caringmedical.com/prolotherapy-news/chronic-head....
[2] https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas....
[3] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tmj/symptoms-...
[+] [-] bigDinosaur|4 years ago|reply
The grim reality is that you probably don't see many of the people that faded away and physically degraded by not being at all physically active, because they're very probably elderly and essentially housebound.
[+] [-] paulpauper|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kvhdude|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Dwolb|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marifjeren|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SamBam|4 years ago|reply
The article linked above says
> Anyway I downloaded the report [1] [...]. The full conclusion, with the widely-quote section in bold, is below:
> > Poor sleep was associated with a higher risk for all-cause and cause-specific mortality...
And yet this "quoted" section is not in the linked report at all. Ctr-f "sleep" find no mention of the word.
1. https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/54/20/1195
[+] [-] Terry_Roll|4 years ago|reply
There is a chemical which can be taken in 1-2gram amounts daily that will give you a six pack just from a couple hours of walking, its legal and its used for other things but it has its "side effects" so needs to be complimented with other chemicals in order to mitigate said "side effects", and thats when you start going down a long path of chemical and biological pathways.
The thing with chemicals is you need to take them at the right time of day in the right amount, take them at the wrong time and your sleep will not be good and/or you will be feeling tired all day.
Most multivitamins can be considered harmful for the above reason but the range of chemicals will offset some of that harm.
Sure exercise can help for pumping blood, raising body temperature, but could you get away with little or not exercise? Probably, if you can control the chemical intake to compliment your food/drink intake, whilst bearing in mind that food/drink already limits your lifespan.
[+] [-] bitexploder|4 years ago|reply
Wat? Like, seeing your abs is just having low BF. Most guys will have a 6 pack when around 10% BF. Or at least solid definition.
[+] [-] The_rationalist|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrisbrandow|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dorianmariefr|4 years ago|reply