What a silly plan. Consider the reverse situation.
You are a US citizen, and your phone randomly rings. On the other line, there is a guy speaking English with a heavy russian accent:
"Hello. I call from Russia. This website I find ask me to call and inform you of real happenings in Ukraine. Your media full of lies. Trust me. Look. I have pen."
Yeah I can totally see Americans taking up arms against their government after a couple of spam calls like this.
You’re probably right, but it’s possible that the environment is such in Russia right now that this could be impactful. From what I’ve been reading and seeing, the Russian people are more willing now than ever to protest and question their government. Those who are on the fence may actually be swayed by a random call like this, but only if they are already suspicious of the information the Russian government is showing them.
I could see a spambot calling thousands of numbers a day from europe with a recording versus an actual person. We laugh about the car warranty scam calls we get everyday, but we're all aware of the messaging.
I'm glad this is the top comment because this is indeed an absurd and ridiculous plan. It's pretty amazing how many people in this thread and in MSM are copy/pasting the exact playbook run by Dick Cheney and his gang of liars, and doing a "Ctrl-F" to replace "terrorist" with "Russian". Notice as well that these analyses are not making a claim that Ukraine itself represents some specific national interest to the US and NATO, security or otherwise. The tone is consistently vengeful and demonizing. The difference between 2022 and 2003 is a matter of velocity in terms of how quickly the fervor can spread via our technology, and how difficult it is to pare back the insane calls for escalation.
Part of Putin's narrative of control is that the west is out to get ordinary Russians and have been since the Berlin Wall came down. Much of what we've done over the last several weeks in response to this crisis is making that fiction a reality in the minds of Russians. This "call random Russians, troll them" idea is part of that same general philosophy that's making it so easy for people to advocate things that would directly lead to WWIII with a rather uncomfortably high probability that we'd see the use of tactical nuclear weapons (a no-fly zone for just one example).
To be fair, Russia _does_ do a version of this extensively, with bots on social media. It still only manages to have some (maybe?) effect on ~30-40% of Americans, so your point stands, the tactic has limited effectiveness.
I think we should ask some marketing genius on how to approach this one.
Robo-calling and having a recording say "the people are stronger than Putin", or something like that, could have an impact if people hear it often enough.
No, think about it. We have all of these free speech advocates who insist that sunlight is the best disinfectant, that only necessary response to misinformation is information, that one simply needs to engage with extremists in rational debate on the facts, etc. Let them loose on the Russian public and the war could be over in a matter of days!
I am from Czechoslovakia, trying to imagine what would happen in 1980s if people then were getting unexpected political calls from unknown foreigners. They would mostly assume it is a secret service provocation and react accordingly. Yes that's hard to believe for westerners that your own state would do such nasty stuff to you, but it was commonplace then.
Shortwave radio station that is possible to tune to in Moscow and beyond, where they can listen to people they have known before, would have much bigger impact. Like Radio Free Europe did.
I would probably advise against doing this. There have been rumors of Russian police looking through citizen's phones for indications that they are engaging with western viewpoints on the "special operation". And the penalty for such activities is quite high right now.
A random phone call from a U.S. citizen might look suspicious, and I don't imagine Russian police are giving much benefit of the doubt right now.
If you want to help the protest movements in Russia, support the russian opposition, NGO's that provide help to people arrested during demonstrations (13750 as of today) https://ovdinfo.org/ , and independent journalists who are currently escaping the country to continue their work abroad in relative safety.
Calling random people, messing with the russian internet, targeting the russian opposition/journalists escaping the country who just had all their cards turned off because of the visa/masterkard decisions is simply counterproductive.
I'm partial toward the people who got invaded but I cannot even verify the stories and sources to a reliable degree. Simply because I lack the resources.
Having a clear bias (support for one side) makes it cognitively even worse.
So I have two choices:
1. Risking telling "noble" lies because in the grand scheme of things Russia (bad actor) has invaded Ukraine (good actor) so even if I'm wrong in some things my intentions are good.
2. Calling Russians and trying also to hear their side of the story and with an open mind figure out together how to bring this war to an quick end.
I believe the vast majority of Russians and Ukrainians have good intentions and want peace.
But borrowing from the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" one has to have a way of self-correcting i.e. hearing the other side.
So call Russians and tell them your side of the story but don't pretend to know "better".
The amount of footage is overwhelming. Just watch as much as you can from both sides and try to draw your own conclusions. The Russian side has a stale message, it blocks real footage and only works by abundant repetition. They downplay the whole situation to their own peoples claiming the other side is using actors and staging footage. Here is where you can use your own judgement.
There are plenty of Russians on Youtube commenting under pleas posted by Ukrainians asking them to help stop the war. And there are plenty of videos taken by people on the ground in Ukraine that show what's going on. But due to the way Youtube works, the Russian users are not very likely to come across those videos.
Consider interacting with them by replying with links to the videos.
If somebody from Youtube is reading this, I understand that you need to curb spammers who post a lot. But if you could somehow help with this effort, it might actually help change the public opinion in Russia.
When US invaded Iraq (because of false claims about weapons of mass destruction), people did not call random numbers in America. And ordinary Americans did not do anything to stop their government from invading another country on false premises.
I posted a few days ago about how seeing Canadians protest against the war in Iraq made me question the premise of the US invasion. It’s not the same as a phone call and I didn’t have any say in the matter because I was only a teenager but I do think the perspective of an “outsider” can sometimes shake you out of blind acceptance or at least put some cracks in the foundation. I suspect a “trusted” outsider would be a lot more persuasive, though. A phone call from a random Belarusian or Kazakhstani would probably carry a lot more weight than a random Westerner.
Excuse me I was outside with a sign protesting even before the invasion when the votes were being counted in FL then I volunteered for the campaign for a primary challenger after and I certainly had numerous calls from my relatives in Germany where we talked about Iraq.
Phone call is sort term, high effort, and maybe even annoying to those pro-Russians.
Just a thought: I been viewing the evidences of Russian war crimes (photograph, video) that people posted on Twitter since the very beginning of the invasion. A lot's of them are real and fact-checked.
Maybe it could be a good idea to setup some sort of online and physical memorial to show the timelines of how each single innocent people lost their life in the invasion, completely neutrally and uncensored, only tell the story, no decoration.
My rational is this: it is just impossible to convert the entire Russian population to be peace-loving, let's just face it, it won't happen as long as the regime needs brainless tools. But for the curious ones who really wants to understand, the memorial can plant the seed in their head. Every 0.0000001% counts.
Why aren't russians telling eachother? At least a fraction of russians read and trust trustworthy (international) news sources, but if their peers won't believe them, why would they believe me if I called them?
Russia isn't North Korea. Yes there has been a tightening lately and all easily accessible media has been propaganda for a long time. But that doesn't mean any Russian can't - with some effort - consume a wide selection of news. And that's their damn responsibility to do so. For example, if you are a soldier asked to go fight in a country, it's your responsibility to read news from other countries before you leave. Otherwise, how can you be sure you know whether the orders are even legal?
We need to stop giving a pass to russians because they have an authoritarian leadership and strict media control. It's very easy to say this from an armchair in a liberal democracy but I'm still going to say it: Russians have a responsibility to protest the regime now, carrying the personal risk despite perhaps having little to no personal responsibility. Else they have the blood of Ukrainians on their hands.
And the same applies to anyone else in an armchair whose armchair is in room temperature because of russian oil or gas.
> Russians have a responsibility to protest the regime now, carrying the personal risk despite perhaps having little to no personal responsibility. Else they have the blood of Ukrainians on their hands.
Back in 2003, Americans had a responsibility to protest the Bush regime. And hundreds of thousands of us did, but it didn't do a damn bit of good. We still have the blood of over one million Iraqis on our hands.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is illegal and unjustified, but what moral grounds do Americans have to say anything about it?
I would guess that cognitive biases are in play, in part. People want to believe that their country is doing something good, and that their suffering is for a good cause. So if a news source reinforces that (such as "Special Operation to liberate Ukraine from Nazis"), it's easier to listen to than a narrative that runs counter ("Destroying both countries to appease a tyrant's ego").
That's not the only factor, but here in the US it's certainly a big part of the appeal of misleading news sources.
If you look at Russian groups on Facebook - they are ALL talking about the war. ...very passionately.
Russians with western contacts are overwhelmingly against the war. Russians physically in Russia try to be silent online for fear of arrest but they too talk to one another about this clusterF of an invasion.
No one thought about or cared about Ukraine a month ago. Now it's everyone's greatest cause of their lives. Meanwhile, I'm certain there are many atrocities the ruling class isn't forcing your focus on that you don't care about at all. All of this feigned outrage is so fake.
I don't agree with the characterization that it was "feigned" (which implies the person is intentionally doing it), but I do agree that it's a meme that blew up in popularity, and people suddenly felt the need to do something, anything. I mean, we had namecheap canceling russian accounts, of all things. I definitely wouldn't have imagined that happening a few years ago (eg. for xinjiang/hong kong/syria).
It’s happening in Europe, close to the Western world. So it’s understandable that Westerners care.
I’ve seen a few comments about how outrageous it is that people in places like India and Africa are not up in arms about this conflict (I’m just taking their word for it). Not so strange though if you consider their proximity and compare that (lack of) reaction to how few Westerns care about conflicts like the one in Yemen.
It isn't fake. US and other western nations are extremely close Ukrainians, and Ukrainians are very close to other European nations like Poland. Since, many Ukrainians, Poles, Germans, Czech, Lithuanians, Slovakians live in the US. They protest and spread the word. Plus, there are protests in individual countries.
There always will be some issues in the society, but what is happening in Ukraine is giving people WW2 vibes and Poles can relate.
It is a matter of time until Russia will crumble though.
Those who know, already know. If they do not know or knowingly support the war, your call will not magically change their mind.
If you are a citizen of a European country, call your government and ask to help Ukraine instead. Drop humanitarian supplies, people experience food shortages. Send in troops, the more losses Russia suffers the harder it is for the government to maintain the pretense of normalcy. No one likes fighting a losing war.
But I don't really see the message the caller is supposed to relay once they dial in.
You are supposed to relay stories about bombed hospitals and shelled houses that you've either picked up from the media a day ago, or just from the web site's caption text. Are you ready to answer the question "what were you doing in the last 8 years"? Are you ready to even understand it? What about Alley of Angels, are you ready to talk about it?
I would expect there would be some "weaponized" facts at a minimum, or you may be losing in that artillery duel quite fast. Because Russian TV and state media does supply a lot of weaponized facts of its own.
Consider telling your counterparty that Russia prevents civilians from getting out from besieged cities, and they respond "I've just saw on the TV that Ukrainian far-right batallions are not letting their civilians out to use them as human shield". How are you going to reason from that point? I'm honestly interested because I don't know whose truth is there.
Just to add up to comments explaining why it won't work. I'm from Kazakhstan, but I'm more or less indistinguishable from Russian. Russians in Kazakhstan basically consume the same media Russia citizens do. So I can't even persuade my own relatives there that it is obvious we are bad guys right not. Not some random people, but my own mother believes TV more than me. Because it is easier to believe, it is almost impossible for us (anyone probably) that we became evil. And you can't change that by spam calls, you probably make it worse. People who can accept other opinions still have access to other sources, it is not (yet) N. Korea.
We need more protests and (sadly) more sanctions, preferably against individuals. And truth, not anti-propaganda. More coverage of current situation in cities, and less 'russian ship go f* yourself'
I'd assume that the majority of foreign calls are wiretapped and automatically converted to text for keyword searches. Russia gets to go directly into the server/networking rooms to install their black boxes.
So self-censor certain keywords... as you normally would on the internet.
I feel very skeptical that a stranger can quickly change someone's mind over a phone call. Most people expect some kind of scam or sales pitching when a stranger is calling them.
I called a lot of my friends in Russia and they are mostly aware of what's going on. But they all live in big cities. The problem is large rural population and smaller towns, which is majority of the population in Russia. They still seem to support Putin no matter what.
This and all the cancel type activists seem like an extraordinary case of “do-something-itis”.
How does it impact Ukrainians if a cat competition bans the breed “Russian Blue”[1]?
As others on this thread have pointed out, an anonymous call from a foreign stranger is extremely unlikely to change minds on a political issue (we can’t even change the political opinions of family members at Thanksgiving Dinner). Seems like a waste of effort.
Doing something meaningful is HARD. You can’t just make a phone call or a tweet or TikTok or put a Ukrainian flag emoji in your social media profile. Acting out like pouring out Russian vodka may actually be harming people who support your cause; maybe the CEO of the vodka company is a Putin opponent. Maybe the vodka isn’t even from Russia [2](most isn’t). You don’t know. You can’t know how your virtue signaling is going to harm people, but I promise you it’s not going accomplish your stated goals (prove me wrong with a counter-example showing how this stopped a war). At best, it will make already like minded people like you more.
You have to obtain political power which is mostly done by organizing other like minded people and/or donations to influencable people with power. You have to amass enough power to make the change you want effected. Then you have to wield that power effectively, and hope that your opponents aren’t more successful in their opposing activities.
[+] [-] tpoacher|4 years ago|reply
You are a US citizen, and your phone randomly rings. On the other line, there is a guy speaking English with a heavy russian accent:
"Hello. I call from Russia. This website I find ask me to call and inform you of real happenings in Ukraine. Your media full of lies. Trust me. Look. I have pen."
Yeah I can totally see Americans taking up arms against their government after a couple of spam calls like this.
[+] [-] tpoacher|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] malka|4 years ago|reply
The point is to:
* create noise in the telephone logbook to annoy the FSB.
* create distrust toward the FSB. This would be the result of people getting arrested for receiving phone calls from the US.
[+] [-] bombcar|4 years ago|reply
Or maybe they don't even bother asking and just gulag him.
[+] [-] auslegung|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bastardoperator|4 years ago|reply
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2022...
I could see a spambot calling thousands of numbers a day from europe with a recording versus an actual person. We laugh about the car warranty scam calls we get everyday, but we're all aware of the messaging.
[+] [-] remarkEon|4 years ago|reply
Part of Putin's narrative of control is that the west is out to get ordinary Russians and have been since the Berlin Wall came down. Much of what we've done over the last several weeks in response to this crisis is making that fiction a reality in the minds of Russians. This "call random Russians, troll them" idea is part of that same general philosophy that's making it so easy for people to advocate things that would directly lead to WWIII with a rather uncomfortably high probability that we'd see the use of tactical nuclear weapons (a no-fly zone for just one example).
[+] [-] antattack|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xdennis|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whoisthemachine|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmix|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dangerface|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ilyich|4 years ago|reply
Or even better:
"Privet kamrad. My name John. Zer is a site Utub. Itz no blokt in Rasha. Taip Ukreyn in surch boks end it vil shou yu trus yu didn't no."
[+] [-] amelius|4 years ago|reply
Robo-calling and having a recording say "the people are stronger than Putin", or something like that, could have an impact if people hear it often enough.
[+] [-] krapp|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rini17|4 years ago|reply
Shortwave radio station that is possible to tune to in Moscow and beyond, where they can listen to people they have known before, would have much bigger impact. Like Radio Free Europe did.
[+] [-] josephwegner|4 years ago|reply
A random phone call from a U.S. citizen might look suspicious, and I don't imagine Russian police are giving much benefit of the doubt right now.
[+] [-] asats|4 years ago|reply
Calling random people, messing with the russian internet, targeting the russian opposition/journalists escaping the country who just had all their cards turned off because of the visa/masterkard decisions is simply counterproductive.
[+] [-] dav_Oz|4 years ago|reply
I'm partial toward the people who got invaded but I cannot even verify the stories and sources to a reliable degree. Simply because I lack the resources.
Having a clear bias (support for one side) makes it cognitively even worse.
So I have two choices:
1. Risking telling "noble" lies because in the grand scheme of things Russia (bad actor) has invaded Ukraine (good actor) so even if I'm wrong in some things my intentions are good.
2. Calling Russians and trying also to hear their side of the story and with an open mind figure out together how to bring this war to an quick end.
I believe the vast majority of Russians and Ukrainians have good intentions and want peace.
But borrowing from the proverb "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" one has to have a way of self-correcting i.e. hearing the other side.
So call Russians and tell them your side of the story but don't pretend to know "better".
[+] [-] onemoresoop|4 years ago|reply
The amount of footage is overwhelming. Just watch as much as you can from both sides and try to draw your own conclusions. The Russian side has a stale message, it blocks real footage and only works by abundant repetition. They downplay the whole situation to their own peoples claiming the other side is using actors and staging footage. Here is where you can use your own judgement.
[+] [-] zyphr|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] surfmike|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] geoka9|4 years ago|reply
Consider interacting with them by replying with links to the videos.
If somebody from Youtube is reading this, I understand that you need to curb spammers who post a lot. But if you could somehow help with this effort, it might actually help change the public opinion in Russia.
[+] [-] drno123|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elliekelly|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mzs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fourseventy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saurik|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] q1w2|4 years ago|reply
Ukraine is a democracy.
HUGE difference.
[+] [-] nirui|4 years ago|reply
Just a thought: I been viewing the evidences of Russian war crimes (photograph, video) that people posted on Twitter since the very beginning of the invasion. A lot's of them are real and fact-checked.
Maybe it could be a good idea to setup some sort of online and physical memorial to show the timelines of how each single innocent people lost their life in the invasion, completely neutrally and uncensored, only tell the story, no decoration.
My rational is this: it is just impossible to convert the entire Russian population to be peace-loving, let's just face it, it won't happen as long as the regime needs brainless tools. But for the curious ones who really wants to understand, the memorial can plant the seed in their head. Every 0.0000001% counts.
[+] [-] alkonaut|4 years ago|reply
Russia isn't North Korea. Yes there has been a tightening lately and all easily accessible media has been propaganda for a long time. But that doesn't mean any Russian can't - with some effort - consume a wide selection of news. And that's their damn responsibility to do so. For example, if you are a soldier asked to go fight in a country, it's your responsibility to read news from other countries before you leave. Otherwise, how can you be sure you know whether the orders are even legal?
We need to stop giving a pass to russians because they have an authoritarian leadership and strict media control. It's very easy to say this from an armchair in a liberal democracy but I'm still going to say it: Russians have a responsibility to protest the regime now, carrying the personal risk despite perhaps having little to no personal responsibility. Else they have the blood of Ukrainians on their hands.
And the same applies to anyone else in an armchair whose armchair is in room temperature because of russian oil or gas.
[+] [-] NoGravitas|4 years ago|reply
Back in 2003, Americans had a responsibility to protest the Bush regime. And hundreds of thousands of us did, but it didn't do a damn bit of good. We still have the blood of over one million Iraqis on our hands.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is illegal and unjustified, but what moral grounds do Americans have to say anything about it?
[+] [-] neolefty|4 years ago|reply
That's not the only factor, but here in the US it's certainly a big part of the appeal of misleading news sources.
[+] [-] q1w2|4 years ago|reply
If you look at Russian groups on Facebook - they are ALL talking about the war. ...very passionately.
Russians with western contacts are overwhelmingly against the war. Russians physically in Russia try to be silent online for fear of arrest but they too talk to one another about this clusterF of an invasion.
[+] [-] AlfeG|4 years ago|reply
That's how I see request to Russians to stop Putin.
Also hey Russians, we rob all you money in online services and stop those services to work for you. Stop this train!
[+] [-] decremental|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gruez|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] avgcorrection|4 years ago|reply
I’ve seen a few comments about how outrageous it is that people in places like India and Africa are not up in arms about this conflict (I’m just taking their word for it). Not so strange though if you consider their proximity and compare that (lack of) reaction to how few Westerns care about conflicts like the one in Yemen.
[+] [-] avgDev|4 years ago|reply
There always will be some issues in the society, but what is happening in Ukraine is giving people WW2 vibes and Poles can relate.
It is a matter of time until Russia will crumble though.
[+] [-] czzr|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xdennis|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway290|4 years ago|reply
If you are a citizen of a European country, call your government and ask to help Ukraine instead. Drop humanitarian supplies, people experience food shortages. Send in troops, the more losses Russia suffers the harder it is for the government to maintain the pretense of normalcy. No one likes fighting a losing war.
[+] [-] thriftwy|4 years ago|reply
You are supposed to relay stories about bombed hospitals and shelled houses that you've either picked up from the media a day ago, or just from the web site's caption text. Are you ready to answer the question "what were you doing in the last 8 years"? Are you ready to even understand it? What about Alley of Angels, are you ready to talk about it?
I would expect there would be some "weaponized" facts at a minimum, or you may be losing in that artillery duel quite fast. Because Russian TV and state media does supply a lot of weaponized facts of its own.
Consider telling your counterparty that Russia prevents civilians from getting out from besieged cities, and they respond "I've just saw on the TV that Ukrainian far-right batallions are not letting their civilians out to use them as human shield". How are you going to reason from that point? I'm honestly interested because I don't know whose truth is there.
[+] [-] Zvez|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philliphaydon|4 years ago|reply
Donno if it helps tho. Saw a tweet about it and lots of people were saying they were sending texts and getting replies.
[+] [-] w_t_payne|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmix|4 years ago|reply
So self-censor certain keywords... as you normally would on the internet.
[+] [-] BrBone|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tananaev|4 years ago|reply
I called a lot of my friends in Russia and they are mostly aware of what's going on. But they all live in big cities. The problem is large rural population and smaller towns, which is majority of the population in Russia. They still seem to support Putin no matter what.
[+] [-] efitz|4 years ago|reply
How does it impact Ukrainians if a cat competition bans the breed “Russian Blue”[1]?
As others on this thread have pointed out, an anonymous call from a foreign stranger is extremely unlikely to change minds on a political issue (we can’t even change the political opinions of family members at Thanksgiving Dinner). Seems like a waste of effort.
Doing something meaningful is HARD. You can’t just make a phone call or a tweet or TikTok or put a Ukrainian flag emoji in your social media profile. Acting out like pouring out Russian vodka may actually be harming people who support your cause; maybe the CEO of the vodka company is a Putin opponent. Maybe the vodka isn’t even from Russia [2](most isn’t). You don’t know. You can’t know how your virtue signaling is going to harm people, but I promise you it’s not going accomplish your stated goals (prove me wrong with a counter-example showing how this stopped a war). At best, it will make already like minded people like you more.
You have to obtain political power which is mostly done by organizing other like minded people and/or donations to influencable people with power. You have to amass enough power to make the change you want effected. Then you have to wield that power effectively, and hope that your opponents aren’t more successful in their opposing activities.
There’s no short cut.
[1] https://www.businessinsider.com.au/chinas-social-media-obses... [2] https://www.newsweek.com/officials-pour-out-vodka-protest-wa...