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Twitter makes it harder to choose the old reverse-chronological feed

357 points| Yaina | 4 years ago |theverge.com

224 comments

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[+] blacklight|4 years ago|reply
Just use Twitter's lists. I've been using them for a long time.

I added to one of my lists only the accounts that I really want to see on my feed (no old school friends, acquaintances, nor random people that some of the accounts I follow just started following: only sources with added value).

The result? Open your list, and you'll see all the tweets sorted chronologically, only from the accounts you really care to follow.

The quality of the time I spend on Twitter has dramatically increased since this change. No more time wasted scrolling through whatever irrelevant tweets the platform wants me to see. Twitter for me has basically become like an RSS feed aggregator with a curated list of sources to follow, reported in chronological order. And that's exactly what I wanted. Fck their algorithmic sht: I know better than them what I want to read.

[+] nabajour|4 years ago|reply
It's probably also important from an information bubble point of view: you selected those accounts you follow and with time you start to know them, so you have an idea of their opinions and biases and you can probably better judge of trends of opinion in a specific context.

With an algorithmic feed, it's probably easier to get biased into thinking that what is shown to you is representative of trends in the rest of the world. (even if we are conscious of the information bubble, our brain probably makes this construction).

[+] strogonoff|4 years ago|reply
The one feature I wish Twitter lists had is turning off retweets by account in a list. Currently, a retweet-generous account will pollute the entire list. You can turn off retweets only for accounts you actually follow, and it applies only to your main timeline, not the lists.
[+] joegahona|4 years ago|reply
My fear is dutifully curating lists for this purpose -- which would take ages -- only for them to monkey with this feature. I see a lot of people on Twitter who say something like "if you put me in a list, I will block you," which makes me think there's some sort of list-spamming capability currently. (I can't figure out any other reason people wouldn't want to be added to lists...?)

I use the reverse-chron feed almost exclusively. Product Management Twitter has devolved into people with 1-2 years of product experience vomiting out threads of "What I've learned" that have zero insight, and because I follow a lot of legit product people, Twitter thinks I want this other stuff. I hate it.

[+] sneak|4 years ago|reply
Twitter censors the search bar, even hiding tweets that don't violate the TOS from logged in searchers searching for certain bad-PR hashtags, making it impossible to identify the scope or reach or growth rates of certain memes (eg qanon, antivax, war propaganda, etc).

It is supremely disrespectful to tell other adults what they are and are not allowed to read.

"Just" stop donating content and attention to abusive and disrespectful censorship platforms.

You don't counter abuse with workarounds, you leave and stop being abused.

[+] SECProto|4 years ago|reply
Caveat: I immediately block anyone who adds me to a list (it's only happened 3 or 4 times and it seems spammy). And I've seen a number of other accounts with "don't add me to lists" or equivalent in their bio.
[+] LinAGKar|4 years ago|reply
Myself I hardly ever open the Twitter front page. I get all my Twitter follows in my RSS reader through RSS-bridge, and then it doesn't matter how Twitter sorts them.
[+] dmix|4 years ago|reply
Lists are still a pain to constantly navigate to on mobile/desktop... unless you use TweekDeck which I haven't in years.

You basically have to be a dedicated Twitter user to enjoy it.

[+] Sunspark|4 years ago|reply
Be aware with lists you still need to select between show top tweets and latest tweets with the icon in the upper right.

Chronological is not the default setting for lists.

[+] nkuttler|4 years ago|reply
Interesting, thanks for the suggestion. Is there an easy way to create a list with everybody I follow?
[+] mohamez|4 years ago|reply
Good suggestion, thank you.
[+] Markoff|4 years ago|reply
why not just mute accounts you don't wanna see unless you ar elooking for them specifically and also disable retweets from people you are not interested in RT
[+] nkozyra|4 years ago|reply
They've been battling the widespread preference for chronological timeline for ... well, forever.

As the common belief goes, the "algorithmic" one is more profitable. I buy this, intuitively, because it seems natural that it'd be harder to sneak in something jarring if you were viewing a more traditional timeline.

But I can't fathom why seemingly no effort has gone into monetizing a chronological timeline. Why is it's foregone conclusion that it won't work with advertising the way the algorithmic was works?

[+] slimsag|4 years ago|reply
I don't think there's any issue monetizing a chronological timeline.

The issue for them I imagine is retention: with chronological, it's likely that when you visit Twitter the first few messages you see are not interesting and you leave. But if they put a tweet that's popular among your social group in front of you? Odds are that's interesting to you and you stick around a bit longer.

I dislike that, to be clear, but I imagine this is the human behavior for >90% of people.

[+] colechristensen|4 years ago|reply
I would bet there’s a phenomenon at work here where you can addict almost everybody for a short time by doing X but long term a few become hardcore addicts and most become alienated.

It’s hard to tell that your actions have changed the kind of user who is most engaged until your platform is destroyed and consists of users who barely pay attention and addicts that feed off of each other and not much else (Facebook).

Metrics lie and optimizing for certain performance metrics ends up optimizing for exploiting human weaknesses which is actually somewhat uncommon in the population, which explains the process of optimizing your platform into irrelevance.

[+] PragmaticPulp|4 years ago|reply
> They've been battling the widespread preference for chronological timeline

Or the simpler explanation is that the chronological timeline isn't actually the preferred setting, outside of a small but vocal minority.

If the chronological timeline is somehow hurting their profitability, why would they offer it at all? I think the more obvious explanation is that very few people were actually using it according to their analytics, so the switch no longer occupies prime UI/UX real estate. If it was some sort of conspiracy, they would have just killed the feature.

> As the common belief goes, the "algorithmic" one is more profitable. I buy this, intuitively, because it seems natural that it'd be harder to sneak in something jarring if you were viewing a more traditional timeline.

I don't follow this logic. There's nothing stopping Twitter from inserting the same ads at the same frequency just because the Tweets are ordered differently.

[+] heavyset_go|4 years ago|reply
> But I can't fathom why seemingly no effort has gone into monetizing a chronological timeline. Why is it's foregone conclusion that it won't work with advertising the way the algorithmic was works?

Operant conditioning and intermittent reinforcement are why.

[+] daniel-cussen|4 years ago|reply
The chronological timeline is an algorithmic timeline. It uses an algorithm, sorting, to display the best content.

What they want to use instead is a different, inferior algorithm (for you, or you wouldn't hate it so much), but which is superior for them. That algorithm is not the only profitable algorithm, it is one of many, your preferred system is also algorithmic. This is just an algorithm that uses a black box nobody understands, or even tries to understand, or even tries to read (which they could, they have access to the weights of the neural net), and consequently, which they can claim to have no responsibility or even power over.

They're actually more heuristics, not algorithms. As such, they have all kinds of failures, many intentional. Algorithms (at least in my book) are generally are air-tight, and verifiable. Like you chronological feed, if two items were out of order, you could see it and it would show the algorithm to be wrong. It would have to lie about the date (which you do see sometimes) to fool you.

These heuristics are really just the man behind the curtain, imposing his will in an algorithmically-amplified way. It is driven by a dual goal of profit and political ambitions, with the latter being weighted more highly.

[+] ifkngluvscience|4 years ago|reply
Why is it a foregone conclusion that it's about straightforward monetization, or even monetization at all?

What if it's actually a way to hide specific topics or sentiments from the timeline? If the algorithm of what to show first is a black box, scales can be tipped just like Google does with search results.

If it's a pure chronological timeline, you either have to be blatant in not displaying the tweets you want to suppress, or let people see them.

[+] kmeisthax|4 years ago|reply
With chronological timelines you either "run out" of content (because you've already refreshed like 15 times this hour and read everything the people you follow have said), or you get buried in content you don't want (because you're following people for hairdressing tips and they're all tweeting 20-page threads about why Putin is actually in the right somehow). Eventually you burn out and churn out.

With algorithmic timelines the system is deliberately optimizing for "what keeps you on the site", even if it's not new or not something you follow. Hence, you stay on longer and view more ads. There's nothing about chrono that makes advertising less effective; algorithmic timelines just keep people on site and thus keep them as part of your ad inventory.

[+] whiplash451|4 years ago|reply
A chronological timeline has benefits but will look very dull compared to a timeline where Twitter can put in front of you stuff that's related to recent news but that was posted a while ago. The key is to push topics in front of you, not the latest thing that was said.
[+] flenserboy|4 years ago|reply
You're assuming that Twitter is a business that is run like a business and not something else.
[+] KarlKemp|4 years ago|reply
None of those motivations seem to make much sense. I’d bet on simple negligence: only a tiny minority insists on the chronological timeline and it’s therefore acceptable to annoy them from time to time.
[+] MrPatan|4 years ago|reply
If I control your inputs, I control your outputs.
[+] jdrc|4 years ago|reply
But why? I use it more now
[+] amatecha|4 years ago|reply
If you want "Twitter" without ads, algorithmic feed manipulated by marketing, actual moderation, and actual community, I suggest joining a Mastodon[0] instance (and you probably already know people who are on the platform, making it easier to choose which instance ;)). It's kinda like using Twitter in 2007, but with way more features. For example, selective permissions per-"toot" ("followers only", or "unlisted" which makes it not show up on the public timeline, but still visible on your profile or to followers), content warning on toots (like a spoiler warning), full image description support, much longer posts...

Personally I'm closer every day to abandoning Twitter and just focusing solely on Mastodon. Many in my social circle have already done so.

Oh, while I'm at it: if you want to view Twitter posts without having a Twitter account (or just don't want to see ads and trending crap), check out Nitter[1]. Alternative front-end. It also has minimal JS and is far more resource-efficient (viewing my profile loaded 1.56mb of resources on Nitter, compared to 9.2mb on Twitter)

[0] https://joinmastodon.org/

[1] https://nitter.net/

[+] sdrinf|4 years ago|reply
Last year, I throw some significant amount of time, energy, and dev focus to get into this; on the basis that I _wanted_ Mastodon to be a successful thing. To be specific, I've first spent around 2 weeks for "searching"/browsing (there's no search, only tags :/ ), seeking out acquaintances, and looking for topics/servers that would tickle my curiosity/insight senses.

There were none for me.

So, given that mastodon is large, and federated, surely the problem is with me right? So, I said fuck it, let's break out the API. I wrote a scraper, seeded with a few least-bad people's profile, programmed it to pull the last ~32 toots & add all connections of the user to scrape breadth-first to get a wide array of perspectives. ~150 servers & 50,000 toots. I then took my general keyword list (~150 items, representing majority of my interests in both layman and technical terms) that I use to evaluate social networks, and search engines, and crunched through the toots.

Results: deep technical terms have accidental hits, generally used either in different context; or scratching almost none of the surface. Wide terms generally pull very low signal, from the general vicinity of conspiracy theories/how bad twitter is/crypto/mastodon is great.

I'd really really would prefer to actually use Mastodon, but

1, the features they offer optimizes against it's own usage (lack of search, lack of discoverability; you can call this positive change, but again, it optimizes against onboarding & finding interesting stuff)

2, because it's federated, there's no-one dedicated to acquiring people who have better use of their time, and

3, the people who are in there, do not, currently, would lead me to level up in directions I care about.

Mastodon represents a set of preferences, and I'm happy for you that it seems to be aligning with yours; it does not aligns with mine, is all I'm saying.

[+] cpach|4 years ago|reply
“Personally I’m closer every day to abandoning Twitter and just focusing solely on Mastodon.”

I did this and I don’t regret it.

[+] TeddyDD|4 years ago|reply
This. I'm still on Twitter for lol content, but I can dump it at any moment. Mastodon is great.
[+] Nextgrid|4 years ago|reply
Mastodon and federation is a very bad solution to the problem at hand and brings its own issues. There are benefits to centralization.

A good solution to this problem (and "growth and engagement" at large) is to make advertising-based business models less profitable (with better and enforced privacy regulation, more liability for the ads they run, or losing Section 230 protection for those who manipulate content's reach to maximize "engagement" as opposed to being a neutral communication platform where the user controls which content is shown to them, etc) so that businesses go back to the old model of the user paying for the service, aligning the incentives of the platform with what the users want.

[+] ptato|4 years ago|reply
I don't know anyone who uses Mastodon, and whenever I've tried it every instance seems barren. I would love to ditch Twitter though.
[+] Markoff|4 years ago|reply
the problem with Nitter is you can see only one user's timeline, I want to see multiple users combined, then I can ditch Twitter site completely just for passive reading, but until then it's still more convenient with one account read multiple accounts in one timeline instead opening them one by one unless I'm missing something and Nitter allows combined timeline from multiple accounts
[+] lucumo|4 years ago|reply
Ffs.

The availability of the chronological timeline is the only reason why Twitter still works for me and Facebook and LinkedIn don't. I keep seeing the same shit on the latter two, despite extensive attempts to train the recommender engine.

Facebook just keeps showing me the same posts over and over again. LinkedIn shows different posts, but they are all so cookie cutter similar that they might as well have been the same. And even more insipid, it will do a repeat of network updates at two weeks and four weeks. Nothing says "we got interesting content" more than reruns!

I'm soooo looking forward to Twitter being uninteresting repeats as well.

> But when I force close and re-open the app when looking at the Latest Tweets column, the Home feed is what Twitter shows first.

Great. Choose between keeping the app always-on or having boring shit first.

[+] IRP|4 years ago|reply
I deeply hate the algorithmic (Home) version. It seems to totally hide the tweets of people who don't have a certain ranking. What's the point of following someone's account if Tweeter doesn't even show me what they are posting?
[+] bmlzootown|4 years ago|reply
GoodTwitter2[0] is the only reason that I still use the web version anymore. I can handle the mobile interface on a mobile device, but making the desktop experience mobile-themed was the straw that almost broke the camel's back. GoodTwitter2 mostly fixes that, thankfully.

The userscript also fixes the reverse-chronological issue. There's literally a setting that enables one to force "Latest Tweets First" mode, so it'll switch back to the "latest" feed whenever Twitter has decided that you should be viewing their "home" feed instead.

[0] https://github.com/Bl4Cc4t/GoodTwitter2

[+] LeoPanthera|4 years ago|reply
I feel like I'm the only person in the world who likes the "algorithmic" feed.

In theory I follow few enough people to be able to sit down and read every tweet - I rarely want to. The magical "algorithm" seems to do a reasonable job of raising tweets with high activity, or tweets from people I often interact with, to the top.

This seems entirely reasonable to me, and if I want to see the rest, I can just keep scrolling.

Perhaps it is more of a problem if you follow hundreds of people. But I don't do that, and if I did, I'd never be able to read everything anyway.

[+] jwmoz|4 years ago|reply
I hate Twitter for all the change they've made-more spam and useless engagement features. I noticed this in testing some time ago, constantly making it hard just to see what I want, not the Algo suggested tweets, other peoples likes, spam etc.

Every tech company is going down the same route, spam and advertising until they force power users away in disgust.

Just this week I've had the same annoying random Chinese language influencer advert force shown to me on Youtube on every video view, and I can't even speak Chinese.

[+] hirundo|4 years ago|reply
I feel like a smuggler. I closed my Twitter account due to such shenanigans, and now read my favorite tweeters via Nitter RSS feeds. None of the various Twitter bovine excrement comes along for the ride, just the words of the people I intend to follow, in the order posted. No ads, no trending topics, no shocking takes from a friend of a friend of a friend. And for me the read-only nature of this arrangement is a bonus feature.

So it's probably just a matter of time before this route is plugged.

[+] MBCook|4 years ago|reply
I really like Twitter, I follow a lot of great people and discover a lot of great things on it.

But I don’t understand how anyone uses their website or the official client. If it wasn’t for a third-party client I think I’d give up pretty fast.

[+] meesterdude|4 years ago|reply
Everytime they mess with my feed, I get closer to closing my account; especially as they exert more and more control.

all I want is to follow specific people and see their tweets in chronological order. I don't want it shuffled, i don't care what they've liked, I don't care what who follows them is tweeting (if I did, i would be following them).

Also, it's creepy there is no "disable" or "stop" functionality. Everything is "See less often". No, I don't want to see it EVER.

[+] extr|4 years ago|reply
Part of the reason twitter is so great is that reading posts chronologically gives you a feeling of connection and immediacy in communication. I like reading posts from 5 seconds ago, conversations only yet halfway through, absolute bleeding edge breaking news, it's unique among social media platforms in this regard and that makes it feel very alive. But I don't get that from the algorithm, my timeline turns into more of a constantly rotating greatest hits reel of posts in my corner of the network graph. That's cool, ha ha very funny meme. But it doesn't feel "alive" then, it feels like FB/IG/Tiktok. Which kind of ruins the point of why I enjoy twitter in the first place.
[+] scim-knox-twox|4 years ago|reply
I've stopped using Facebook since they messed up timeline several years ago (even manually selecting “Newest posts” started to do… nothing).
[+] bgro|4 years ago|reply
I still haven’t figured out how to read twitter conversations / threads and profiles. Everything always seems out of order. Referenced things are just generally missing as well. I don’t think they were deleted but I have no idea.
[+] nickdothutton|4 years ago|reply
Twitter is now deep into the “every new release makes the product worse” stage of life.
[+] EastSmith|4 years ago|reply
These algorithmic news are optimized for user retention and engagment, rather then the news itself, so it is esntialy the digital equivalent of nicotine addiction. They simply make you want more and more of the same shit.
[+] radley|4 years ago|reply
Not exactly an extreme solution: on macOS you can use Time Machine to restore Twitter to a version that's only chronological. You have to grab the Sept 11 2021 release. The Home feed was added in late October as a trojan horse.
[+] ricardobeat|4 years ago|reply
They’ve made the decision to lay down the algorithm long ago.

Mind you, I can absolutely see that activity on Twitter has only been going up recently. Which would be great if 80% of it wasn’t self-promotion, crypto babble and spam, plagiarized content, and LinkedIn style “expert” threads.

On top of that, all of the promoted tweets I see are junk content farms.

It hasn’t been an ideal place for connecting with friends for a while, and now it’s becoming an absolute shit hole for decent content or professional communities. What will be left?