Maybe the concern others are expressing here can be thought of as the risk of double counting of carbon.
If I run an industrial plant that's currently fuelled by burning waste lignin from the paper industry, and I decide to stop that and install some solar panels instead, it seems reasonable for me to claim that change is carbon negative (i.e. I've reduced carbon emissions).
Now if CarbonCrusher comes along and buys the lignin I no longer need, uses it to build a road, and claims the same carbon saving as I did, we end up double counting.
This is a very fair question. We need to be mindful going forward in how we communicate. We can say that our Scope 3 emissions are negative, but scope 1 we are slightly positive (but still much lower than competition) Just to clarify; we go from 7-10kg CO2 positive for traditional methods, to 5 kg negative in two steps; Step one is we reduce emissions from transport, extraction etc because we have a better Crusher which recycles the road better, which takes us to just above 1kg pr m2 - massive savings already from the traditional method, and this could be counted mostly in Scope 1 or 2, some of it in 3 (reduced extraction). The remaining ca -6 kg is the effect of lignin - here debated in the thread and that we are saying is carbon negative. This is a scope 3 effect.
Thanks for pointing out! We are still a young company and need to work on our Scope 1-3 accounting :)
When you switched from burning lignin to solar, you reduced your carbon usage.
However, what happened to the lignin that you stopped using?
If it was burned somewhere else, the total carbon usage remained the same even though you changed your usage.
If it was stockpiled and is now decomposing over three years, the carbon usage was time-shifted and will be back where it was in three years. (However, total carbon usage will be reduced the first and second year.)
This is supposedly a usage of lignin that results in no release, so it actually is carbon-negative (assuming that the processing doesn't use more carbon), regardless of what other folks think that they did. That said, it's probably actually just time-shifted, albeit on a long time-scale.
Note that both coal and diamonds are actually time-shifted carbon usage, on the scale of millions of years.
My problem is that a) the lignin will decay into C02 (what is the time frame on this? if its hundreds of years then maybe there is some merit here)
but b) this implies that if a paper mill wanted to claim to be "carbon negative" they could simply build a warehouse and store lignin for a while before burning it. Furthermore, it implies that if I wanted to claim to be 1 million kgs carbon negative I can simply make a threat of starting a forest fire. If I then DON'T burn the forest I now can say I personally removed 1 million kgs of C02 from the atmosphere.
Yes - time and degradation is key. All evidence we have as of today suggests close to none degradation of the lignin, and if/when eventually some degradation happens (yet to happen on the roads we have from 14y back), sequestration downwards in the soil, from the deep stabilized road layer we have bound with lignin. This is a very important area for us to pioneer research on going forward to get completely right, thanks for all the comments here, it will help us sharpen our efforts.
Great thread, thanks all for the passion for this important topic. Just to clarify; we go from 7-10kg CO2 positive for traditional methods, to 5 kg negative pr m2 in two steps; Step one is we reduce emissions from value chain; incl. transport, & extraction when our Crusher recycles the road, which takes us to just above 1kg pr m2 (massive savings already from the traditional method). The remaining ca -6 kg is the effect of lignin - turning the calculation towards negative - and here debated in the thread with different opinions.
Its a complex highly aromatic (in the chemistry sense) large molecule that there is active research in trying to convert to useful chemical products.
However it's quite difficult to break its bonds in ways that yield useful compounds. And until there is a viable way of upcycling it, burning it for energy is what they do
Except the current use of the byproduct is not just flaring it off pointlessly as waste. The byproduct is being burned as a fuel, which in that usage is already (nearly) neutral. If an alternative fuel has to be used instead, that fuel is more than likely going to be natural gas or coal.
tomsyouruncle|3 years ago
If I run an industrial plant that's currently fuelled by burning waste lignin from the paper industry, and I decide to stop that and install some solar panels instead, it seems reasonable for me to claim that change is carbon negative (i.e. I've reduced carbon emissions).
Now if CarbonCrusher comes along and buys the lignin I no longer need, uses it to build a road, and claims the same carbon saving as I did, we end up double counting.
Which of us is wrong?
hansarne|3 years ago
Thanks for pointing out! We are still a young company and need to work on our Scope 1-3 accounting :)
anamax|3 years ago
When you switched from burning lignin to solar, you reduced your carbon usage.
However, what happened to the lignin that you stopped using?
If it was burned somewhere else, the total carbon usage remained the same even though you changed your usage.
If it was stockpiled and is now decomposing over three years, the carbon usage was time-shifted and will be back where it was in three years. (However, total carbon usage will be reduced the first and second year.)
This is supposedly a usage of lignin that results in no release, so it actually is carbon-negative (assuming that the processing doesn't use more carbon), regardless of what other folks think that they did. That said, it's probably actually just time-shifted, albeit on a long time-scale.
Note that both coal and diamonds are actually time-shifted carbon usage, on the scale of millions of years.
ghostbust555|3 years ago
haakonzen|3 years ago
haakonzen|3 years ago
civilized|3 years ago
el_oni|3 years ago
However it's quite difficult to break its bonds in ways that yield useful compounds. And until there is a viable way of upcycling it, burning it for energy is what they do
lvs|3 years ago
testrun|3 years ago
Simple.
For warming we can use electricity generated by wind, solar, tides etc.
Do not move the goalposts.
dymk|3 years ago