But the Minoans almost never produced goods for themselves depicting warfare until after the Mycenaean take over ~1450 BCE, after these seals were made.
While Minoan princes were often depicted nearly nude and with long hair and sometimes leaping, the Griffin warrior grave was for an actual warrior and among the items he was buried with was a comb for hair.
Just who were the warriors depicted across centuries and different locations in these Mycenaean seals, and what was the nature of their battle?
You can see in the Pylos combat agate that the long haired warrior is fighting above the body of another fallen comrade.
While the motif predates any possible historic Trojan War by centuries, I suspect that the tradition behind this scene is what eventually inspired Homer's story of Achilles fighting Hector after the death of Patroclus, reworked into the narrative of Troy with the original story lost to the ages in lieu of these seals left behind.
Should the Griffin warrior grave in the palace of Nestor turn out to be closer in time to the Mycenaean grave circle (dating off pottery isn't always the most reliable), I'd like to think that the Griffin warrior IS the warrior from the seal, with his greatest accomplishment immortalized in one of the finest works of art in that time, and that we have indeed found the grave of Achilles (or the inspiration thereof), just outside the timeline of various events compressed into a single fiction by 'Homer' and the oral tradition which survived the Greek Dark Ages.
Whenever I see something like this, I'm reminded that really smart people have always existed. We're not at some pinnacle of human intelligence (the opposite actually [1]), we're just in a different context.
This is a much more controversial view than as suggested in the comment -- specifically there is very little data backing up the hypothesis that intelligence is decreasing. This is compounded by the fact that we really don't have great tools for measuring intelligence or a deep understanding of how it develops and manifests in humans. IMO the jury is still out on the general direction human intelligence is moving, but realistically if you are concerned the best thing you can do is improve environmental factors and educational access.
When I see this (a relic of the Minoan civilization), I'm reminded that civilization has undergone multiple collapses as a result of disease, war, corruption, and famine, and in the process we lose skills and technology along the way, and only re-learn them (or alternative technologies) after we enter a period of new abundance, sometimes many centuries or millenia later.
This hypothesis is contested. Average IQ results have gone up generation by generation. While IQ tests aren't a straightforward intelligence measure, it's at least a result based on data rather than conjecture.
I don't believe that. First because we are we are with larger numbers, so more absolute numbers of smart people. Second. We have never lived so rich, free and well fed as today.
Given that my father was born and raised in Crete, I've visited the island numerous times.
This place is deep, I always have a very weird feeling when I'm there, it's like starring in those movies, where everyone is happy and joyful, however you know that something mysterious is lurking below all of this.
There are places that still are called by their Minoan names.
If you ever get there, don't miss the archaeological museum in Heraklion. Here is a small sample:
I didn't go to that museum, but i went to the one in Chania. The thing i remember most clearly is the little pull-along toy, substantially the same as one you might buy in a bougie toyshop today, that's getting on for three thousand years old:
My girlfriend was conceived in Crete, by her Greek father and her Italian mother.
She tells me that the feeling you get in Crete and the way Cretans think of life and death (what you call "something mysterious is lurking below") can be explained by the story of the Arkadi Monastery [1]: during the Cretan Revolt against the Ottoman empire in 1866 943 Greeks, mostly women and children, sought refuge in the monastery. After three days of battle and under orders from the hegumen (abbot) of the monastery, the Cretans blew up barrels of gunpowder, choosing to sacrifice themselves rather than surrender.
After reading this I can't help but think of a talk "Preventing the Collapse of Civilization" given by Jonathan Blow (the game dev) about progress and how it's not always increasing like we tend to think.
As said in other comments the artifact is indeed gorgeous, the intricacy of carving stunning. I also agree with the idea that it shows our predecessors were as intelligent as we are today. Certainly no less "artistic" or creative.
Other objects from prior epochs reflect the same levels of intelligence. The astonishing "Venus of Dolní Věstonice" (National Museum in Prague, Czech Republic) [0] is a ceramic piece made ~25-29K years ago. I was privileged to see it about 25 years ago, its patina resembles raku-like ceramics. I've asked myself, how did anyone know how to do this 25K years ago? How did the creator of the piece manage to get the elevated temperature (~750C) needed to make it work? It was the product of intelligence to be sure.
Of course there are many other examples of ancient human ingenuity to point to. It's evident our ancestors figured out solutions to problems in surprisingly effective ways. We're smart too, but probably no smarter than those who came before.
In an odd coincidence - I'm just sailing away from Crete, I've always been interested in the Minion civilisation which dates at its earliest to 3500 years ago.
Things of note. Please respect the following text, which is civil and describes nude sculpture, bearing in mind Minoan civilisation was renowned for priestesses which wore bodices that exposed their breasts.
A few days ago I saw a Minoan figure of a female clay bust, which I have not found online, in the Heraklion Archaelogical museum, and it is the finest sculpture of breasts I have ever seen that predates modernity. I will try and upload an image if anyone is interested. Just perfectly sculpted and realistic.
Within the theme, I also discovered a 3500 year old sculpture of a woman which has over 100 breasts all over it. Oddly the sculpture was listed as having "nubs" quite why the museum did I have no idea why. While odd, what I found compelling , is that a figure of a multiple breasted woman is renowned in the city of Ephesus - called the Diana of Ephesus - (feel free to google). I have not found any link in museum of in texts, but it must be related, as Ephesus was also settled by Minoans. Just an odd similarity which I do genuinely is related.
I am not a historian so please chime in if there is a link.
But importantly - I just wanted to share my observation, that usual sculptures one associates with minoan civilisation such as the priestess holding the snakes - seems like an amateur attempt at sculpture compared to the more secretive, hidden pieces that I happened to come across. This helps to contextualise the quality of detail in the agate described in the article.
No conspiracy life is just surprising like that.
Just my take I hope it was of interest.
PS - If anyone is interested in video just browse the Crete tag on tiktok as I know there is video there.
Is this level of detail in a hand made object really surprising?
The Avogadro Project involved making silicon balls with a mass of 1kg and surface irregularities of the order of a few nanometres. Achim Leistner, a master lens maker, finished the spheres by hand as he was able to feel surface imperfections of the order of a few nanometres.
A similarly skilled person could have lived in 1500 BC.
Yes, but you'd need archeological evidence to say that such a person existed, and the oldest known possibly manufactured lens dates from the 7th century BC [0].
That really is incredible. Looks like a 1700s decorative item.
We often think that art was truly awoken during the renaissance and people started to understand the human form and realism then, but ancient art shows people have been doing it since the dawn of history.
What’s weird to me is how, for a period between the decline of Rome and the 1400s, Europeans seemed to forget how to realistically depict people in art.
> “Looking at the image for the first time was a very moving experience, and it still is,” Stocker noted. “It’s brought some people to tears.”
I get the meaning here, but I still find it slightly humorous that people are being moved to tears by an image depicting a human murdering another human (and a corpse on the ground)
When I got to see the "venus of willendorf" I had a very atavistic reaction. Really strong goose bumps. An amazing feeling of connectedness across deep time.
"Sub-Millimeter" may sound impressive to a novice, but with very simple tools like a hand file you can work on metal with a precision of a thousandth of a millimeter. So yes, this is impressive craftmanship but nothing that would rewite history of technology.
Regarding the fine detail, firstly I think people generally had better eyesight back then.
Secondly, jellyfish. One type, always washed up on my local beach, is a 3pi/2 arc - about the size and shape of a 3/4 donut. And perfectly transparent. Its optical qualities are something any curious human will investigate. It's a small step to use it to see and work on fine detail. And much smaller steps to experiment with which curvature gives the best magnification. Could also be used as a telescope. Jellypunk.
I am not sure magnification would be required to produce that piece. Some people have visual acuity in the range needed to produce that work. And it depends on age.
I do wonder what tool they used. Perhaps a harder stone?
However it was done, it's a great, beautiful piece! What a find!
[+] [-] kromem|3 years ago|reply
The motif on it is the same as on a seal found in the Mycenaean grave circle with "Agamemnon's Mask" (dated 16th century BCE, centuries too early to be Homer's Agamemnon): https://www.alamy.com/battling-warriors-on-a-gold-seal-from-...
But the Minoans almost never produced goods for themselves depicting warfare until after the Mycenaean take over ~1450 BCE, after these seals were made.
While Minoan princes were often depicted nearly nude and with long hair and sometimes leaping, the Griffin warrior grave was for an actual warrior and among the items he was buried with was a comb for hair.
Just who were the warriors depicted across centuries and different locations in these Mycenaean seals, and what was the nature of their battle?
You can see in the Pylos combat agate that the long haired warrior is fighting above the body of another fallen comrade.
While the motif predates any possible historic Trojan War by centuries, I suspect that the tradition behind this scene is what eventually inspired Homer's story of Achilles fighting Hector after the death of Patroclus, reworked into the narrative of Troy with the original story lost to the ages in lieu of these seals left behind.
Should the Griffin warrior grave in the palace of Nestor turn out to be closer in time to the Mycenaean grave circle (dating off pottery isn't always the most reliable), I'd like to think that the Griffin warrior IS the warrior from the seal, with his greatest accomplishment immortalized in one of the finest works of art in that time, and that we have indeed found the grave of Achilles (or the inspiration thereof), just outside the timeline of various events compressed into a single fiction by 'Homer' and the oral tradition which survived the Greek Dark Ages.
[+] [-] dr_dshiv|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cgio|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robwwilliams|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nomel|3 years ago|reply
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Fragile_Intellect
[+] [-] after_care|3 years ago|reply
This is a much more controversial view than as suggested in the comment -- specifically there is very little data backing up the hypothesis that intelligence is decreasing. This is compounded by the fact that we really don't have great tools for measuring intelligence or a deep understanding of how it develops and manifests in humans. IMO the jury is still out on the general direction human intelligence is moving, but realistically if you are concerned the best thing you can do is improve environmental factors and educational access.
[+] [-] chrisco255|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nsajko|3 years ago|reply
https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1600398113
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1612113114
[+] [-] Manuel_D|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mejutoco|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawaycities|3 years ago|reply
No doubt, but the person(s) that produced this carving don’t have to be smart, just skilled artisans/craftsman.
[+] [-] holoduke|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DictumMortuum|3 years ago|reply
This place is deep, I always have a very weird feeling when I'm there, it's like starring in those movies, where everyone is happy and joyful, however you know that something mysterious is lurking below all of this.
There are places that still are called by their Minoan names.
If you ever get there, don't miss the archaeological museum in Heraklion. Here is a small sample:
https://ibb.co/P5RWZtZ https://ibb.co/khqvm8F
[+] [-] twic|3 years ago|reply
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clay_oxen_wheel,_a_t...
[+] [-] peoplefromibiza|3 years ago|reply
She tells me that the feeling you get in Crete and the way Cretans think of life and death (what you call "something mysterious is lurking below") can be explained by the story of the Arkadi Monastery [1]: during the Cretan Revolt against the Ottoman empire in 1866 943 Greeks, mostly women and children, sought refuge in the monastery. After three days of battle and under orders from the hegumen (abbot) of the monastery, the Cretans blew up barrels of gunpowder, choosing to sacrifice themselves rather than surrender.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkadi_Monastery
[+] [-] sjaak|3 years ago|reply
Super interesting if you have the time for it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSRHeXYDLko
[+] [-] jrapdx3|3 years ago|reply
Other objects from prior epochs reflect the same levels of intelligence. The astonishing "Venus of Dolní Věstonice" (National Museum in Prague, Czech Republic) [0] is a ceramic piece made ~25-29K years ago. I was privileged to see it about 25 years ago, its patina resembles raku-like ceramics. I've asked myself, how did anyone know how to do this 25K years ago? How did the creator of the piece manage to get the elevated temperature (~750C) needed to make it work? It was the product of intelligence to be sure.
Of course there are many other examples of ancient human ingenuity to point to. It's evident our ancestors figured out solutions to problems in surprisingly effective ways. We're smart too, but probably no smarter than those who came before.
[0] https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=2493
[+] [-] garbagetime|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ionwake|3 years ago|reply
Things of note. Please respect the following text, which is civil and describes nude sculpture, bearing in mind Minoan civilisation was renowned for priestesses which wore bodices that exposed their breasts.
A few days ago I saw a Minoan figure of a female clay bust, which I have not found online, in the Heraklion Archaelogical museum, and it is the finest sculpture of breasts I have ever seen that predates modernity. I will try and upload an image if anyone is interested. Just perfectly sculpted and realistic.
Within the theme, I also discovered a 3500 year old sculpture of a woman which has over 100 breasts all over it. Oddly the sculpture was listed as having "nubs" quite why the museum did I have no idea why. While odd, what I found compelling , is that a figure of a multiple breasted woman is renowned in the city of Ephesus - called the Diana of Ephesus - (feel free to google). I have not found any link in museum of in texts, but it must be related, as Ephesus was also settled by Minoans. Just an odd similarity which I do genuinely is related.
I am not a historian so please chime in if there is a link.
But importantly - I just wanted to share my observation, that usual sculptures one associates with minoan civilisation such as the priestess holding the snakes - seems like an amateur attempt at sculpture compared to the more secretive, hidden pieces that I happened to come across. This helps to contextualise the quality of detail in the agate described in the article.
No conspiracy life is just surprising like that.
Just my take I hope it was of interest. PS - If anyone is interested in video just browse the Crete tag on tiktok as I know there is video there.
[+] [-] femto|3 years ago|reply
The Avogadro Project involved making silicon balls with a mass of 1kg and surface irregularities of the order of a few nanometres. Achim Leistner, a master lens maker, finished the spheres by hand as he was able to feel surface imperfections of the order of a few nanometres.
A similarly skilled person could have lived in 1500 BC.
[1] https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/making-the-worlds-perfect-ki...
[+] [-] actually_a_dog|3 years ago|reply
---
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens#History
[+] [-] disqard|3 years ago|reply
https://news.artnet.com/app/news-upload/2017/11/31SCI-WARRIO...
[+] [-] aksss|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grapeskin|3 years ago|reply
We often think that art was truly awoken during the renaissance and people started to understand the human form and realism then, but ancient art shows people have been doing it since the dawn of history.
What’s weird to me is how, for a period between the decline of Rome and the 1400s, Europeans seemed to forget how to realistically depict people in art.
[+] [-] andrew_|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] oboes|3 years ago|reply
http://www.griffinwarrior.org/
[+] [-] scrapcode|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ffhhj|3 years ago|reply
How about using a Pantograph?
> The ancient Greek engineer Hero of Alexandria described pantographs in his work Mechanics.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph
[+] [-] ch4s3|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] happytoexplain|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] umvi|3 years ago|reply
I get the meaning here, but I still find it slightly humorous that people are being moved to tears by an image depicting a human murdering another human (and a corpse on the ground)
[+] [-] ggm|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jansan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] canadaduane|3 years ago|reply
http://www.griffinwarrior.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hes...
[+] [-] notpachet|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hyperpallium2|3 years ago|reply
Secondly, jellyfish. One type, always washed up on my local beach, is a 3pi/2 arc - about the size and shape of a 3/4 donut. And perfectly transparent. Its optical qualities are something any curious human will investigate. It's a small step to use it to see and work on fine detail. And much smaller steps to experiment with which curvature gives the best magnification. Could also be used as a telescope. Jellypunk.
[+] [-] Cipater|3 years ago|reply
I looked it up because I was skeptical and found this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/149328524@N08/49759508281/in/p...
[+] [-] wazoox|3 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15649062
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16254122
[+] [-] yesenadam|3 years ago|reply
There seem to be 0 comments on either of those pages.
[+] [-] hownottowrite|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ddingus|3 years ago|reply
I do wonder what tool they used. Perhaps a harder stone?
However it was done, it's a great, beautiful piece! What a find!
[+] [-] flembat|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crawfordcomeaux|3 years ago|reply
And if that's how they did it, this is still remarkable work.
[+] [-] coderaptor|3 years ago|reply
It’s possible to “shrink” a stamp by pressing onto wet clay, firing, and then repeating the process multiple times (clay will reduce after firing).
I wonder if this could have been etched or pressed, potentially with a chemical process?
[+] [-] berkut|3 years ago|reply