[ashtonkem]

> Very hard to attract workers to come to a city where they have to walk through needles and poop to get to the office. Or after they’ve been attacked by a mentally ill pan handler.

Are we ignoring the past 20 years of startups and major tech companies attracting high level of talent to SF? Because pre pandemic it was very, very easy to attract workers, very expensive workers, to move to SF despite all of its issues. Every few years we’d have these discussions, and yet major startups and FAANGs would keep hiring there.

I think remote is an issue for SF, but it is also worth pointing out that remote work is extremely popular outside SF too. $CORP is really struggling to get on site workers across a variety of cities where satellite offices exist, and not just CA cities either. My feel is that this is a general cultural change across the industry, and maybe SF is a bit more affected because it’s so much more expensive than other metro areas.

My guess is that like a ton of other tech companies, they were either losing staff to remote jobs, or having a hard time justifying having an office when a large percentage of their work force didn’t come in, and this is how they decided to spin the PR.

[northerdome]

It got worse during the pandemic. All policing stopped and downtown became a free for all. When I moved to San Francisco in 2016, I constantly had to reassure others it’s not as bad as the media makes it out to be. Now it is worse than media reports. I had someone threaten to stab me with a pencil when commuting to downtown at 9 AM. I had someone detached from reality and naked yell they wanted to kill me at 1 PM across the street from Salesforce Park. My home was broken into with my bike stolen and the cops told me there was nothing they can do. Then politicians tell you that there is no crime problem and you are just bigoted.

My eyes were opened when I went to Manhattan last summer and found it way safer and nicer than San Francisco. Finally getting out.

It really is that bad.

[valenterry]

I rejected a fairly good FAANG offer because they required me moving to SF. That was 2019, but I still rejected it after watching some bikers driving through and filming the city on YouTube.

[ashtonkem]

I stopped a Google interview halfway through in 2012 because they would only consider junior engineers in NYC and Mountain View, and I didn’t want to leave Chicago. But I don’t think our one off experiences make a trend. Facebook and Google alone hired and kept a ton of talent in SF pre pandemic, never mind the countless non FAANG companies there. Not everyone obviously, but a gob smacking number of engineers lived in the Bay Area.

[s1artibartfast]

>Are we ignoring the past 20 years of startups and major tech companies attracting high level of talent to SF? Because pre pandemic it was very, very easy to attract workers, very expensive workers, to move to SF despite all of its issues. Every few years we’d have these discussions, and yet major startups and FAANGs would keep hiring there.

I don't think this is the straw that broke the camel's back, but costs have only gone up for residents and employers, while benefits to being SF based have generally decreased.

>my guess is that like a ton of other tech companies, they were either losing staff to remote jobs, or having a hard time justifying having an office when a large percentage of their work force didn’t come in, and this is how they decided to spin the PR.

I imagine this specific case is a conflux of all the issues. If the office was a pretty 5 minute walk from cheap housing, I doubt they would be having trouble getting in-office workers.

[ashtonkem]

> I imagine this specific case is a conflux of all the issues.

That’s a much more nuanced way of putting it, I agree completely.

[CityOfThrowaway]

Pre-COVID, the benefits of suffering downtown outweighed the detriments:

1. It wasn't as bad before. Some areas were, but the zone of insanity has grown and worse behavior is being tolerated now.

2. There was a lot more people around which made the problems less visually severe

3. There was a lively "scene". Events, experiences, dinners, whatever. Stuff was happening all the time for techies.

Now it's a lot less vibrant. SF's insistence on masks, tests, and vaccines to the very end guaranteed that normal social behavior wouldn't come back. And, surprise, it didn't! All of the people who live for that stuff and organize it... moved away!

On top of that, SF was drunk on power and money in 2019 and implemented all manner of taxes to punish tech companies. Well, the tech companies now have their options and they aren't choosing the jurisdiction that hates them.

I don't expect that SF will return to its peak 2019 level of hegemony at any point prior to a political and social revolution in the town.

[mathattack]

3 changes:

1) The city worsened.

2) Companies got better at working remote.

3) The pool of talent outside the Bay Area grew as folks skipped town.