Based in Shanghai since 2014, I can share some details on why it feels so unbearable to be here right now.
Firstly, the totalitarian government have never been good at communicating anything except propaganda. So on one hand we're inundated with "Go Shanghai!" and how brave volunteers distribute food, on the other hand, we're completely in the dark about what's going on. Goalposts are being moved daily, rumors proliferate, and things change every day, adding a lot of stress to an already suboptimal situation.
Second, I can confirm that the food situation is extremely bad. We are a family of two, and always been kind of preppers, so we had many bags of rice, pasta, dehydrated veg, frozen meats in our large fridge. Chinese society, en masse, is much more used to just ordering food daily. Many people never cook. It's cheaper this way (though of course the quality varies). Bigger families with aunties who can cook just used to pop by the local wet market daily and get a bag of fresh produce. Many households might not even have a fridge at all, or have a small one.
The government was saying that "there will be no lockdown", and when the lockdown became imminent, people barely had two days to stock up. Queues, fights, empty shelves everywhere. More stress.
A lot of people in our community do not have any food left, and we've received two government issued "rations" so far (in 12 days of lockdown): one with 5 tomatoes, and one with 3 pounds of chicken drumsticks, 3 potatoes, 1 head of cauliflower, and a bunch of rotten lettuce. If we did not stock up, we would be starving right now. We donated quite a bit of food to our neighbors already, and many people are actually very close to having no food at all. Getting a delivery is almost impossible, group orders organized by compounds are often ridiculously overpriced, and not always work out. Scams are emerging.
Thirdly, I understand the author's frustration with the guards ("baoan"). Those people never had any formal power, but now they "run things" and, for many, the newly obtained power went to their heads. Violence and abuse is abound. We have PCR tests every 1-2 days, sometimes at 6am, some compounds at 3am. People dragged from their beds and forced to stand in queues.
How would you respond to all that?
Yes, it has some potential to save lives, but if it was communicated better, if we had more time to prepare, and they could still run food deliveries, nobody would complain that much. It's terribly mismanaged, and even after we "open up", I will strongly reconsider staying here. Omicron will return, and I do not want to be here for the next (and next, and next) lockdown.
It’s fascinating to me how tolerant some people are. After reading your comment (very informative thanks!), I would be well past “considering”. I’d be gone (with family in toe) as soon as humanly possible.
People don't want to die. They'll find a way break out of their houses before starving to death and they'll look for food. It's hard to defend against that at the scale of a city the size of Shanghai. If the government is smart they'll let people out in a controlled way but if I were in Shanghai I won't bet my life on that. Of course it's a matter of timing. If you get out to early you'll be nearly alone and you could fail or worse. If you a too much misplaced trust you die at home.
As a Chinese, I can say that the situation is worse than it in the article. My brother is a student who lives in a flat and has not eaten for two days and no one has brought basic substances. He can't leave the flat, he turns to his tutor but his tutor is also forced to stay at home (eating instant noodles every day). We are worried about him but there is nothing we can do, if we criticise the government on chinese Twitter we will be arrested by the police. ಥ_ಥ
me and my wife (we live in Suzhou) actually talked that if this happens to our city, it might actually become worth to "cause trouble" and get arrested, hoping that there would be some food given in the police station.
Its ridiculous how dystopian such conversations have become recently...
Yes, and anyone without a Shanghai hukou (identity card) is not even allowed to get government food. That is a LOT of people in the Shanghai region. I wish the best for everyone stuck there.
- have no "buffer", meaning living in houses where you can't store food in quantity sufficient for a certain, not little, period of time, in some countries there are even official recommendations like Swiss who recommend one week of food and three days of water (I think, not sure about exact data);
- live in a not-united population that can arise effectively, no government, no power can stop an angry population, they can only try to avoid communications, create confusion and divert anger towards against false/others target.
The first issue might be sorted out if economical conditions allow citizens to live in large-enough homes with room for freezers etc to guarantee even a month of autonomy. The second unfortunately is a tricky business that can change in decades, no less...
The only hope for your brother is if there's a black market for food staples and basic commodities taken shape in Shanghai already and there's an informal network of couriers to deliver food behind all the barriers
> People are finding out that state media exists not for accurate news, but only to spin reality into a narrative that fits the powers higher up.
Are people really finding that out only now? I thought that this was generally accepted knowledge even in China, despite the constant fear and propaganda they live with.
What's happening now with the strict lockdowns and zero-Covid policy is inhumane. People are literally prisoners in their own homes and anyone in a position of power will abuse it to avoid hurting their social score. What a fucked up situation.
> Are people really finding that out only now? I thought that this was generally accepted knowledge even in China, despite the constant fear and propaganda they live with.
Yes and no. You see, 2 decades ago probably half of my peers had that knowledge, that was when the internet was pretty much uncensored compared to how it is today. Over the years they get converted by the narrative and now it's probably 5% or even less that keeps a critical mind when reading anything from anywhere, which is, your know, all censored.
I just a couple of days had a conversation with a Chinese friend about this (he is living in Sweden). Essentially he said that previously he thought free-media/free-speech was something he understood, but did not consider terribly important for his own live (i.e. you still live a good live, the Chinese government was lifting the population out of poverty ...), but seeing the media and how they dealt with suppressing covid news (especially news how people with other conditions who did not get treated, that just disappeared from social media) he realised that this could easily affect him as well.
So in summary it was not about that he didn't know that state media was manipulating the news, but more that the crisis showed how this could affect anyone.
A high school friend of ours is apartment-jailed in Shanghai right now. She is a young mom, and all the moms in the apartment are all out of everything required to care for babies. Trying to share strategies on how to use any kitchen ingredients to make formula or rash ointments…
I wonder if this will actually have any political blowback in the coming years, or if this only strengthens the ccp.
You don't need baby formula, it's sad how MANY Chinese fall for baby formula propaganda banned in west with formula samples given to new mothers in Chinese hospitals. Only 1-5% of mothers are unable to breastfeed, the most of the formula buyers just believe fairy tales and feed their kids unhealthy formula and then they complain about being unable to get formula.
Also you dont really need much for baby besides breastmilk, you can make fabric diapers as in old times (yes, it's inconvenient, we went easier way) and that's about it, since baby just need breastmilk, clean clothes and diaper, when older you are fine with boiled smashed vegetables, so these complaints really feel but completely clueless (lazy) mother and only justified complaint is rash ointments which can be really issue and ain't that easy to deal with at home.
I posted a Tell HN about lockdowns coming before they were announced, about two or three weeks ago.
I'm currently in lockdown, not sure when we're getting out. And then after that someone in the compound will probably be infected pretty soon and it all starts over.
I don't see how anyone could miss it given what happened around the world with omicron. One slip and you have about 90% of the people in a room catch it, and then those people go other places.
I lived in an urban village in China during the 2020 lockdowns and literally overnight the authorities erected 6+ foot high fences around my whole neighborhood. Entry and exit to the newly-minted gated community was funneled through two checkpoints that never existed prior to COVID. Authorities were actively patrolling the streets checking ID and ensuring nobody jumped the fence. If an authoritarian government wants to restrict the movements of their population badly enough, they will find a way.
What actually is going on in China, is there some type of economic meltdown in progress ? Like, we can say it's because of covid, but something seems a miss to me.
> This is the biggest, richest, most international city of China and people are starving, without medicine, and without freedom.
Western lockdowns were absolutely tame compared to the Chinese government's version. Additionally, ordering cooked food can be extremely cheap in China, and convenient if all the adults in a household are working long hours. Some may not cook at all, or have sufficient supplies to do so for long periods of time on short notice.
Shanghai also has a population of 26 million people. Organizing a super-strict lockdown while also organizing the importation and accurate delivery of food and medicine to all of these people on very short notice is a logistical and bureaucratic nightmare.
> Like, we can say it's because of covid, but something seems a miss to me.
I'm wondering about this as well - it's hard to imagine that this is not part of greater strategy so either all of this is intentional to increase pressure within Chinese society to the point of boiling for some reason - maybe to disrupt markets and world economy even more? Alternatively Omicron indeed surprised them and now when Russia is at war they do not want to deal with COVID and are ready to try to contain it at all costs.
I think it's as much a show of force and power by the CCP as anything. They will even shut down one of their largest and most prosperous cities on a whim if it suits their goals. Starving people and shutdown productivity do not matter in the face of what the CCP wills to happen. It's as much a warning and shot across the bow as anything.
I am in China too. In Shenzhen. I think the author is very unkind to the Bao An. I am 100% sure they would treat me the same if there is a similar lockdown here, but I imagine they are under a lot of pressure.
My hearts go out to them though. I have a dog here in China, and I am very afraid of what will happen to her if an outbreak like this hits my area. And how can you even have a dog if you can't leave a building for two weeks? What a nightmare.
Hard to verify the source of the video but there is one going around reddit right now showing mass suicides from people jumping out of high rise windows. Claimed to be people in lockdown in Shanghai.
Everyone here is commenting on Covid, vaccines, social policy and
whatnot.
I can't help but see a different, bigger and human story here.
It's about how the systems people erect around themselves turn against
them. Gated communities whose guards become jailers. Convenient fast
food delivery systems that become tools of rationing and siege. News
and communications systems turned to propaganda and social control.
Meanwhile the only good vibe in here is the person-to-person charity
and sharing that occurs amongst the "prisoners".
We should look at this and learn a very important lesson as
technologists.
the worst thing I hear that highways around Tianjin and Beijing are closed. If you have friends living in those places, please message them to reserve a loooot of foods
"This makes this whole lockdown feel drenched in identity politics, because letting go of zero covid forces China to also let go of that narrative."
Not identity politics - perhaps national pride, but certainly not identity politics. Shame the author raises this 'dog whistle' in this otherwise credible article.
The author writes well in English but it is clear English isn't their first language, it's entirely likely they were just using a term they've heard a few times and thought was right and weren't trying to dogwhistle (not sure what they would be dogwhistling even if they were)
Little weird to be talking about peopel starving and lacking meds, but then again they re able to find fresh fish. Anyway, i wonder what this pattern of isolatation can create in terms of covid variants which may develop in china or australia but which haven't been introduced to the rest of world this season.
[+] [-] mstaoru|4 years ago|reply
Firstly, the totalitarian government have never been good at communicating anything except propaganda. So on one hand we're inundated with "Go Shanghai!" and how brave volunteers distribute food, on the other hand, we're completely in the dark about what's going on. Goalposts are being moved daily, rumors proliferate, and things change every day, adding a lot of stress to an already suboptimal situation.
Second, I can confirm that the food situation is extremely bad. We are a family of two, and always been kind of preppers, so we had many bags of rice, pasta, dehydrated veg, frozen meats in our large fridge. Chinese society, en masse, is much more used to just ordering food daily. Many people never cook. It's cheaper this way (though of course the quality varies). Bigger families with aunties who can cook just used to pop by the local wet market daily and get a bag of fresh produce. Many households might not even have a fridge at all, or have a small one.
The government was saying that "there will be no lockdown", and when the lockdown became imminent, people barely had two days to stock up. Queues, fights, empty shelves everywhere. More stress.
A lot of people in our community do not have any food left, and we've received two government issued "rations" so far (in 12 days of lockdown): one with 5 tomatoes, and one with 3 pounds of chicken drumsticks, 3 potatoes, 1 head of cauliflower, and a bunch of rotten lettuce. If we did not stock up, we would be starving right now. We donated quite a bit of food to our neighbors already, and many people are actually very close to having no food at all. Getting a delivery is almost impossible, group orders organized by compounds are often ridiculously overpriced, and not always work out. Scams are emerging.
Thirdly, I understand the author's frustration with the guards ("baoan"). Those people never had any formal power, but now they "run things" and, for many, the newly obtained power went to their heads. Violence and abuse is abound. We have PCR tests every 1-2 days, sometimes at 6am, some compounds at 3am. People dragged from their beds and forced to stand in queues.
How would you respond to all that?
Yes, it has some potential to save lives, but if it was communicated better, if we had more time to prepare, and they could still run food deliveries, nobody would complain that much. It's terribly mismanaged, and even after we "open up", I will strongly reconsider staying here. Omicron will return, and I do not want to be here for the next (and next, and next) lockdown.
[+] [-] rapind|4 years ago|reply
It’s fascinating to me how tolerant some people are. After reading your comment (very informative thanks!), I would be well past “considering”. I’d be gone (with family in toe) as soon as humanly possible.
[+] [-] marcosdumay|4 years ago|reply
From what everybody is saying, it has the potential to take many lives too.
[+] [-] pmontra|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] starkd|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmlnr|4 years ago|reply
Noncompliance at minimum, riots, more probably. There is a point of hunger when one loses it.
[+] [-] verisimi|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tangsanqian|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baka367|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kurthr|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kkfx|4 years ago|reply
- have no "buffer", meaning living in houses where you can't store food in quantity sufficient for a certain, not little, period of time, in some countries there are even official recommendations like Swiss who recommend one week of food and three days of water (I think, not sure about exact data);
- live in a not-united population that can arise effectively, no government, no power can stop an angry population, they can only try to avoid communications, create confusion and divert anger towards against false/others target.
The first issue might be sorted out if economical conditions allow citizens to live in large-enough homes with room for freezers etc to guarantee even a month of autonomy. The second unfortunately is a tricky business that can change in decades, no less...
[+] [-] jsiaajdsdaa|4 years ago|reply
I hope your brother finds a way through this situation.
[+] [-] FerociousTimes|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] netsharc|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Drblessing|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danuker|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sJ646U9k6c6gME9|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] imiric|4 years ago|reply
Are people really finding that out only now? I thought that this was generally accepted knowledge even in China, despite the constant fear and propaganda they live with.
What's happening now with the strict lockdowns and zero-Covid policy is inhumane. People are literally prisoners in their own homes and anyone in a position of power will abuse it to avoid hurting their social score. What a fucked up situation.
[+] [-] techolic|4 years ago|reply
Yes and no. You see, 2 decades ago probably half of my peers had that knowledge, that was when the internet was pretty much uncensored compared to how it is today. Over the years they get converted by the narrative and now it's probably 5% or even less that keeps a critical mind when reading anything from anywhere, which is, your know, all censored.
[+] [-] cycomanic|4 years ago|reply
So in summary it was not about that he didn't know that state media was manipulating the news, but more that the crisis showed how this could affect anyone.
[+] [-] fuckyah|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mensetmanusman|4 years ago|reply
I wonder if this will actually have any political blowback in the coming years, or if this only strengthens the ccp.
[+] [-] ascar|4 years ago|reply
That's how they did it in the past, when a mother wasn't producing enough milk. It was an actual job called wet nurse [1].
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_nurse
[+] [-] treeman79|4 years ago|reply
China makes use of people who complain to much
https://nypost.com/2022/04/07/researchers-claim-chinese-surg...
[+] [-] Markoff|4 years ago|reply
Also you dont really need much for baby besides breastmilk, you can make fabric diapers as in old times (yes, it's inconvenient, we went easier way) and that's about it, since baby just need breastmilk, clean clothes and diaper, when older you are fine with boiled smashed vegetables, so these complaints really feel but completely clueless (lazy) mother and only justified complaint is rash ointments which can be really issue and ain't that easy to deal with at home.
[+] [-] simonebrunozzi|4 years ago|reply
Ouch. Seems like a really bad situation.
[+] [-] user_named|4 years ago|reply
I'm currently in lockdown, not sure when we're getting out. And then after that someone in the compound will probably be infected pretty soon and it all starts over.
Feel free to AMA.
[+] [-] stjohnswarts|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mupuff1234|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dayvid|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Anthony-G|4 years ago|reply
https://nitter.net/RealSexyCyborg/status/1512734595485106179
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1512734595485106179.html
[+] [-] gerbilly|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alisonatwork|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bamboozled|4 years ago|reply
> This is the biggest, richest, most international city of China and people are starving, without medicine, and without freedom.
What?
[+] [-] zdragnar|4 years ago|reply
Shanghai also has a population of 26 million people. Organizing a super-strict lockdown while also organizing the importation and accurate delivery of food and medicine to all of these people on very short notice is a logistical and bureaucratic nightmare.
[+] [-] pxtail|4 years ago|reply
I'm wondering about this as well - it's hard to imagine that this is not part of greater strategy so either all of this is intentional to increase pressure within Chinese society to the point of boiling for some reason - maybe to disrupt markets and world economy even more? Alternatively Omicron indeed surprised them and now when Russia is at war they do not want to deal with COVID and are ready to try to contain it at all costs.
[+] [-] stjohnswarts|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] magpi3|4 years ago|reply
My hearts go out to them though. I have a dog here in China, and I am very afraid of what will happen to her if an outbreak like this hits my area. And how can you even have a dog if you can't leave a building for two weeks? What a nightmare.
[+] [-] Gigachad|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nynx|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alangibson|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheBlight|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chasd00|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nonrandomstring|4 years ago|reply
I can't help but see a different, bigger and human story here.
It's about how the systems people erect around themselves turn against them. Gated communities whose guards become jailers. Convenient fast food delivery systems that become tools of rationing and siege. News and communications systems turned to propaganda and social control.
Meanwhile the only good vibe in here is the person-to-person charity and sharing that occurs amongst the "prisoners".
We should look at this and learn a very important lesson as technologists.
[+] [-] kungito|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a_wang|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] somewhereoutth|4 years ago|reply
Not identity politics - perhaps national pride, but certainly not identity politics. Shame the author raises this 'dog whistle' in this otherwise credible article.
[+] [-] smcl|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jdrc|4 years ago|reply