I know of one person (my friend's mom) who literally got this procedure done: she needed a new kidney, and they waited till a death row convict came along who was a match. When she was matched, she got a phone call to come over to that particular city quickly, and she went there, and came back a few days later with a brand new pair of kidneys. It was almost like when you give your car in for repair, and when it's ready they call you.
Her justification: this guy was going to die anyways, why not save someone's life in the process?
Rumor is also that SF Chinatown politician Rose Pak[1] got such a procedure done as a favor from the CCP government. She was extremely powerful, and CCP wanted to curry favor with her. When she got back from her "treatment", the entire who's who of SF ruling class showed up at the airport to receive her [2].
The biggest mistake western democracies have made is to trade with dictatorships. Enriching them has not encouraged them to become progressive, it has only made them more powerful. We have sown the seeds of our own destruction through our complicity.
I think execution is absolutely wrong and never morally justifiable. However I don’t see why execution + organ harvesting is worse than execution alone.
The Chinese jail system is as corrupt as you can think, since many connected people would like to take advantage of their connections and noboby wants to deny them.
A lot of people are talking about “perverse incentives.” I guess they mean “people being sentenced to death simply so their organs can be harvested.”
It would be nice to see some evidence that actually happened.
I’m not an admirer of the CCP, but it doesn’t seem trial judges are under any pressure to give death sentences simply to supply organs.
China has a very large prison population. Including many “lifers.”
Many of the prisoners have perfectly fine organs.
Yet there doesn’t seem to be pressure to move any of these prisoners to death row to get at their organs.
One good argument against it is that it stigmatizes organ donation. In fact, it really should be called “organ confiscation” or just plain “execution.”
It doesn’t set a standard of organ donation being a good thing.
Isn’t this inline with their values, collective above individual rights? Is it genuinely bad or is using the organs of someone you were about to execute and give someone else life a good thing?
I suspect that Chinese law enforcement agencies are offering death row inmates conducive "incentives" and "arguments" to strengthen their good will to cooperate.
After all, it is for a good cause and in a certain moral sense to make amends for their sins against the communist body of the people.
A bit like an eye for an eye, but more visceral.
Scientific socialism at its best.
You might criticise that there is still a death penalty
You might criticise the justice system is not good enough
But taking the organs from prisoners that were sentenced to be executed that day doesn't sound that unreasonable, if that guarantees better organs to save someone else
But don’t you think for a second that may incentivise raising the number of executions to meet the high demand of organs? And having that justice in China is something that is not at all transparent it may as well turn any dissident into supply for organ banks. I find this extremely cynical and very hard to accept no matter how you look at it.
China's death row is shrouded in secrecy. It keeps its figures on executions secret, but Amnesty International estimates that it killed thousands of prisoners from 2016 to 2020. The US government, conversely, killed 13 prisoners during that time period following a 17-year hiatus that former President Donald Trump ended.
Inaccurate, of course; the US executed something more like 100 prisoners during that time period, since most executions are not carried out by the federal government.
So China infringes on human rights, in other news "water is wet". Not really newsworthy. I would be shocked if it was Iceland or Norway doing that.
As much as we hate hearing about it, only the Chinese people have the power to make changes to this regime. Having met many Chinese students abroad, I'd say they are OK with this happening. Either they are apathic, or supportive of their totalitarian regime.
It is nearly impossible to get an honest current thought from a Chinese citizen about that, many are comfortable, many are afraid that they will be reported for expressing any opinion. There is a worldwide network of snitches of mostly other Chinese citizens that will harm their interests and family in China. Just because you aren't part of it by not being Chinese (citizen) doesn't mean that a non-party line message won't harm them.
It is important to understand that gradient of comfort, awareness and consequence. And how that also couples with unawareness, denial. In the same or different people. In this latter regard, its the same as how you would be on any range of topics. Some topics will trigger a hyper nationalistic response from you, others you accept as unchangeable, some would be totally off limits for you to feel comfortable talking about (ie. regime change outside of the prescribed methods) but this last section is a much broader range for a Chinese citizen to feel off limits talking about and the consequences extend beyond them to their family.
I (mostly) agree with you factually, but I really think it's almost always detrimental to use the old line "this isn't newsworthy" and its other forms, e.g. "why are you surprised", as they imply fallacious equivalencies. "Newsworthy" is not equivalent to "secret", and "surprise" is not equivalent to "offense/outrage". It's bad to imply that news outlets shouldn't report on these things, or that people shouldn't be emotional about them, or have strong opinions about them.
Just because it is not news means we should not discuss it? I find such comments lacking any value other than stating this has been happening for a while.
It’s important to note that Chinese students abroad are generally quite wealthy. On average, the system is benefiting them and hiding all the bad stuff from them. It’s hard to know if there is a lot of unrest within China because most of the people who would have a big problem with the regime can’t travel abroad.
If you’re going to be killing people anyway it’s easy to start thinking that their organs shouldn’t go to waste, of course this is starting you on a slippery slope that’s better not even to start on
More Victim's of Communism funded drama, "during executions" is a funny way of saying "after execution" just because they didn't verify brain death. PRC didn't establish formal transplant system until recently - using organs from executed was most viable interim solution. And largely insufficient in terms of supply/demand. It was still hard AF to get execution organ until ban, much easier to pay some rural villagers for spare kidney or buy from illegal harvesters murdering innocents in ASEAN.
there is a lenghty (and horrible) documentary on this focusing on the persecution by authorities of a non-violent movement of .. whatever it is called.. across China. The documentary came out in the USA right around the time that major trade policies were changed under Biden, which seemed not-coincidental. Once the finger pointing starts in this thread, lets remind ourselves that peace is possible, starting now.
edit: yes that documentary link below.. This post is getting downvoted, but I will add.. revenge and unresolved anti-justice sentiment are prime motivators for WAR. I ask people who have never seen this up close, to think very well before adding nationalistic accusations to a public forum. Personally I am a friend to the Tibetan People and this is nothing new to me, so do not mistake kindness for weakness. It is a stronger stance to firmly refuse antagonizing strong emotions, and find a path forward that includes justice and individual human rights, for all beings I might add.
Yeah, the Falun Gong own several media outlets, so they have become well known as a group and have strong social media influences, they themselves support or create minor spinoff groups such as "China Tribunal" in order to get plausible deniablility for the claims these other groups make
To them it is taboo to have their bodies altered, similar to other Christian religious groups elsewhere which don't accept blood transfusions
But anyhow, these days it has become more and more obvious for the Falun Gong members that they are inside a big cult [1]
[+] [-] 1024core|4 years ago|reply
Her justification: this guy was going to die anyways, why not save someone's life in the process?
Rumor is also that SF Chinatown politician Rose Pak[1] got such a procedure done as a favor from the CCP government. She was extremely powerful, and CCP wanted to curry favor with her. When she got back from her "treatment", the entire who's who of SF ruling class showed up at the airport to receive her [2].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Pak
[2] https://www.sfexaminer.com/photo-galleries/chinatown-communi...
[+] [-] moistly|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elil17|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duxup|4 years ago|reply
Any effort to stop executions now includes the fact that potential donors recipients will die.
[+] [-] throwanem|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nomay|4 years ago|reply
An inmate's death sentence can be commuted to as less as 12 years after this process. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%99%E5%B0%8F%E6%9E%9C
[+] [-] zuppy|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] clamprecht|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ourmandave|4 years ago|reply
It creates a motivation to find the innocent guilty.
Never underestimate how absolutely low someone will go to make a buck.
[+] [-] belter|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pfortuny|4 years ago|reply
Unless of course he is a DONOR.
[+] [-] 737min|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pyuser583|4 years ago|reply
It would be nice to see some evidence that actually happened.
I’m not an admirer of the CCP, but it doesn’t seem trial judges are under any pressure to give death sentences simply to supply organs.
China has a very large prison population. Including many “lifers.”
Many of the prisoners have perfectly fine organs.
Yet there doesn’t seem to be pressure to move any of these prisoners to death row to get at their organs.
One good argument against it is that it stigmatizes organ donation. In fact, it really should be called “organ confiscation” or just plain “execution.”
It doesn’t set a standard of organ donation being a good thing.
[+] [-] belter|4 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30921371
"Human Harvest (Film)"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28313873
[+] [-] andy_ppp|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulcole|4 years ago|reply
In the US we don’t even need the free-organ incentive to sentence innocent people to death.
[+] [-] Borrible|4 years ago|reply
After all, it is for a good cause and in a certain moral sense to make amends for their sins against the communist body of the people. A bit like an eye for an eye, but more visceral. Scientific socialism at its best.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170207112528/https://www.hrw.o...
https://web.archive.org/web/20170207112528/https://www.hrw.o...
[+] [-] guilhas|4 years ago|reply
You might criticise that there is still a death penalty
You might criticise the justice system is not good enough
But taking the organs from prisoners that were sentenced to be executed that day doesn't sound that unreasonable, if that guarantees better organs to save someone else
[+] [-] tartoran|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ComradePhil|4 years ago|reply
Are you able to opt out?
[+] [-] tptacek|4 years ago|reply
Inaccurate, of course; the US executed something more like 100 prisoners during that time period, since most executions are not carried out by the federal government.
[+] [-] sonicggg|4 years ago|reply
As much as we hate hearing about it, only the Chinese people have the power to make changes to this regime. Having met many Chinese students abroad, I'd say they are OK with this happening. Either they are apathic, or supportive of their totalitarian regime.
[+] [-] afry1|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vmception|4 years ago|reply
It is important to understand that gradient of comfort, awareness and consequence. And how that also couples with unawareness, denial. In the same or different people. In this latter regard, its the same as how you would be on any range of topics. Some topics will trigger a hyper nationalistic response from you, others you accept as unchangeable, some would be totally off limits for you to feel comfortable talking about (ie. regime change outside of the prescribed methods) but this last section is a much broader range for a Chinese citizen to feel off limits talking about and the consequences extend beyond them to their family.
[+] [-] happytoexplain|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alephnan|4 years ago|reply
Not the Americans exploiting cheaper labor in China and making China rich ?
> I would be shocked if it was Iceland or Norway doing that.
I would be shocked if you weren’t wearing made in China / Vietnam shoes or clothing.
[+] [-] rhn_mk1|4 years ago|reply
What makes you think they have any power at all? This is not what history teaches us about totalitarian regimes.
[+] [-] tartoran|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elil17|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ymgch|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tomrod|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] space_fountain|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fullshark|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0des|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] peoplefromibiza|4 years ago|reply
they are violent savages.
[+] [-] madaxe_again|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] option|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0des|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cuteboy19|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mytailorisrich|4 years ago|reply
Does this study suggest that they removed organs before that?
[+] [-] dirtyid|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lil_dispaches|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] z3ncyberpunk|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mistrial9|4 years ago|reply
edit: yes that documentary link below.. This post is getting downvoted, but I will add.. revenge and unresolved anti-justice sentiment are prime motivators for WAR. I ask people who have never seen this up close, to think very well before adding nationalistic accusations to a public forum. Personally I am a friend to the Tibetan People and this is nothing new to me, so do not mistake kindness for weakness. It is a stronger stance to firmly refuse antagonizing strong emotions, and find a path forward that includes justice and individual human rights, for all beings I might add.
[+] [-] CyanBird|4 years ago|reply
To them it is taboo to have their bodies altered, similar to other Christian religious groups elsewhere which don't accept blood transfusions
But anyhow, these days it has become more and more obvious for the Falun Gong members that they are inside a big cult [1]
[1] https://ben-d-hurley.medium.com/information-is-beginning-to-...
[+] [-] dm319|4 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong
[+] [-] akprasad|4 years ago|reply
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Harvest_(film)
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] robonerd|4 years ago|reply