I have a son who is 11. All of his friends have smart phones. He will have friends over to the house and the friends will sit there and stare at their phones. My son who doesn't have a phone will be like, hey can you get off tiktok so we can play or go outside? It is rather sad to see this, they are hanging out sharing videos they find on their feeds through their phones. One time my son said, hey get off your phone and lets go scooter around the neighborhood, the kid replied, hey I think I am going to go home. He wanted to surf his phone more than actually hang out with his friend.
I think I made a very good decision not to give my son a phone until he is driving. Instead of surfing tiktok all day, he learns music, does origami, plays outside, helps me with the garden and many other things that bring him a lot of joy. I obviously help him with whatever interest he has, and I think him seeing the way his friends handle social media has made him not really want a phone anymore. He doesn't even mention it to me like he did when all his friends first started getting one. He sees how addicted they are and how he doesn't even have those friends over anymore.
I think people over estimate the "pariah" thing. I grew up in a family of alcoholism, so I chose never to drink. At first people would ask me to drink with them at parties and such. Eventually they realized I never gave in, so when they were out buying alcohol, they would always buy me a pack of soda so when I came I would have something to drink with them. So if the friends are good, I don't think our kids will be pariahs. I think/hope that instead our kids will just find people who appreciate and understand their choices or the choices of their parents. If they don't, are they that good of friends after all? I think it is okay to have less friends, if the quality is higher.
I agree. I'm a little disappointed really to read so many people talk about kids becoming social pariah and how they're just going to teach kids how to use social networks responsibly.
My older did not get a cellphone till 9th grade, that too because the kid used to walk to school. I use pi-hole at home and the kid has never used FB, Instagram, Tiktok. Unfortunately kids use Discord for communicating, so had to allow that, but we had a discussion about the language to use on such platforms and so on. And, so far I believe the kid is fine since I didn't teach them to just use the social platforms responsibly, rather I taught them (I hope) to not use the social platforms at all except for messaging when absolutely necessary. Moreover I try to tell the kid to use browser as much as possible rather than get the apps.
And, for the record I don't use FB, IG, or any other platforms myself - so we lead by example.
So, far I have not heard much protest. What happens when the kid will be in college is anyone's guess. But I personally believe that teaching kids a mistrust of social networks is inherently better than trying to teach them how to use them responsibly, since I don't believe they can be used responsibly.
EDIT: to add, my kid uses DDG instead of Google for search. Does use Gmail, but also has own domain with custom emails. PS5 and Switch, but no network play. Changed password immediately when was forced to use Gmail on a public school computer once.. So, I guess we're just teaching kids different things.
> I have a son who is 11. All of his friends have smart phones. He will have friends over to the house and the friends will sit there and stare at their phones. My son who doesn't have a phone will be like, hey can you get off tiktok so we can play or go outside?
I have a daughter who is 10. She and most of her friends have a smart phone. She is friends with a neighbor girl who is home schooled. When they hang out, the home schooled girl who has extremely limited access to electronics just wants to sit inside and watch shows and play games while my daughter wants to go outside and play. In fact, when she's hanging out with any of her friends none of them are glued to their phones. Anecdotes are fun!
It's interesting to think that right now, at your son's age, most people have friends that are dictated by their classrooms and just the people forced to be around them from 9-3 every day.
I noticed as I finished high school and post secondary school, my friends became people who I actually wanted to hang out with. I had complete freedom to find others to socialize with that were more similar to me.
I guess my question is, how much of an impact does not having a smartphone when you're a teenager have when you reach adulthood? Based on what you've described with your son, it seems like he's benefitting more from not having one.
> I have a son who is 11. All of his friends have smart phones.
My child is also 11. Fortunately none of the friends or anyone in class has a smartphone yet.
I think this is somewhat easier here, in Silicon Valley. Most of the parents are either directly in tech or in very adjacent fields so we experience how the sausage is made and want no part of it. So parents are pretty aligned on no social media and minimal tech. I don't use a smartphone myself, so helps in leading by example. (I have one, but mostly it sits in my work backpack and I hardly ever take it out.)
Most of them have laptops, although only very recently. So they can research (DDG, never google) topics for school and personal interest but it's not something they have nearby most of the time.
So luckily they still get together and do the same things I was doing at 11, ride bikes everywhere and play in the park, forest and beach. Weekends we go camping in areas with minimal to no cell signals (also wonderful for parents, impossible to check jira tickets when there is no signal!). I'm sure it'll get more difficult in middle school and beyond, time will tell.
> One time my son said, hey get off your phone and lets go scooter around the neighborhood, the kid replied, hey I think I am going to go home. He wanted to surf his phone more than actually hang out with his friend
That is so sad. Interesting to see that china has 'LOCKED' down screen time controls for their youth, but they 'strategically' let tiktok run unfettered in other countries
Exercise a little caution if you can though, I was the kid without tv in their house and in middle school it resulted in having no friends and I resented my parents for it.
It's possible to walk a middle road here. My 11-y.o. daughter has a smartphone, but I use parental controls so she can only use apps for a certain amount of time each day (I chose 1 hr on weekdays, 2 hrs on weekends). This makes it possible for her to engage with her peers online, but also protected from becoming totally addicted.
What about the useful aspects of being able to reach/keep tabs on your kid, have it available for them for emergencies, etc? Is it still possible to buy a flip-phone or something for such purposes?
I don't have a child, but I wouldn't mind buying them a Nokia brick once they are around 12 or 13 lol
I don't have kids yet but it is something that has been discussed about my nieces and nephews. As you say, you don't want your kids to become social pariahs but you also don't want to give them smart phones, in this day and age it looks like the two are intrinsically linked, which is disappointing.
I would like to say that we can teach kids to have a healthy relationship with the internet and social media but sites like TicTok are engineered to be as addictive as possible so that would be naïve of me to say.
In saying that, if you outright ban these sites in your house it just means that when it comes time for your kids to be more independent they could possibly have no knowledge of how to healthily use social media and then be worse off than if they had access early.
There is no easy answer here, at the end of the day it will be their decision, all you can do is teach them to navigate the digital world and then be there to help when they make mistakes.
I used to lead policy on digital school education for an important organization advising governments on education policy. This was my driving concern: to fight against all the old grumpy people that don't understand and absolutely fear the digital world and think that all would be well if we ban 0s and 1s from school and force kids to go into the woods (not at all exaggerating on the latter part). There were also others that think all problems are solved when you just get everyone to learn coding, which is a starting point but nearly equally wrong and naive as you need societal context and other understanding to make sense of the digital.
It is a basic but at system level not obvious insight that you cannot ignore reality in how you educate your or anyone else's children. It is easy to be careful and conservative but for education to be useful you have to teach them about difficult topics early and thoroughly and both the substance and the methodology have to actually fit the reality these children can and do encounter every day and WILL eventually encounter once they leave the protected environment of school and parents.
You simply cannot teach a child to be a mature, employable, self-confident, independent, informed and sensible adult without the tools of the normal world. By all means, keep them away from tech completely and there are exactly two scenarios: 1) they sneak their way into getting access 2) they fall into an adult life they are not prepared for and will suffer for it.
You, as a parent or educator, mist face reality and discomfort yourself and engage with the world your children encounter. Teach them understanding and insight, not shame or fear.
It's interesting, of all the points being made in this thread, "making kids be more resilient with (and even enjoying) time alone" feels like an area of opportunity that hasn't been mentioned, not something to shut down and banish.
My circumstances were a little unusual (only child with physical disabilities) but not once did I feel like a social pariah what with books, games, books again, one or two loyal friends, pets, exploring the accessible parts of the backyard and digging up insects ...
There's a happy middle as far as giving into Big Tech vs not, basically.
ah yes the whole "Coca Cola corp. says you can't just ban your kids from drinking and eating sugar !!! then when they turn 18 they'll fall off the wagon and eat nothing but sugar ! better to have them eat it throughout their childhood so they KNOW how to avoid it"
do you people ever try to have an independent thought outside of the propaganda of big business ? what kind of nonsense of this, that children should be expected to compete for their attention span against literal city sized teams working to maximize the size of their algorithm
>I would like to say that we can teach kids to have a healthy relationship with the internet and social media but sites like TicTok are engineered to be as addictive as possible so that would be naïve of me to say.
I don't think so. Don't underestimate the intelligence of kids. If your kid actually understands the way dopamine works (on a sufficient level), they will cultivate their own way of attention-management. That's perfectly doable, kids just soak up knowledge. They have to learn it anyway, so the later you start, the worse the consequences of both social isolation and bad usage-culture will be.
/edit:
to add to my original point, when your kids decide for themselves that they want something, and they feel that you are unfairly restricting their access to it, the consequence will be that they demonize you. Where that leads, for them, for their relationship with you, for the other points you're trying to get across, is never a good place. Be very careful about it.
As a parent (of a kid fortunately nowhere near this age) I get this, but I also don't see a way out. You don't want your kid to be that kid who doesn't have a smartphone when all of their peers do. Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah.
I do wish that more parents (and society in general) would be more sensible about a minimum age for smartphones; it just keeps creeping down. 10/11/12 would be somewhat manageable and it gives parents a chance to help guide their use.
And of course all the popular must have apps already have age limits they absolutely refuse to enforce. TikTok has 13 as the minimum age. WhatsApp (used by every Dutch teenager from 10 onwards) has a minimum age of 16 in the EU…
As someone also with two young kids, my hope is to instill the idea that they can and should use the internet for their own expression and communication, but that they need to do it with tools which puts them in control, and not the other way around.
There are "indie web" alternatives to the big social networks which everyone can use. Social networks without the algorithms that make you doom scrolling, messaging apps that do not track you or read your messages for ads, photo apps that do not have likes and do not gamify karma-whoring, and so on.
To make it even better, these apps are not exclusive to smartphone platforms, so they won't need a smartphone just to participate.
At least here in Germany, even my non-techy friends that are totally addicted to Instagram and Facebook don't publish anything with their kids. I am hoping that by the time their kids have grown a bit, these tools will be more popularized and accessible so that their kids don't fall into the same trap as their parents, and perhaps even the parents take the opportunity to do the switch themselves.
> You don't want your kid to be that kid who doesn't have a smartphone
Why not? If you think that smartphone usage is harmful to your child, then you absolutely are justified in letting them be "that kid". Being moderately socially constrained is actually a perfectly fine thing if the alternative is worse.
> Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah
I don't know anything about you in particular, so I can't say whether this is a good idea or not. But we have to recognize the tradeoffs: unfettered access to social media from a young age with all of its downsides OR being the only kid without a cellphone and those accompanying downsides. Which one harms your kid more? Think about it and make your decision, but once you've made that decision you have to bite the bullet and accept the costs.
>Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah.
As someone who had similar experiences, thanks for letting your children be in control of at least some part of their lives. You're doing the good thing.
Honestly, in this age where we all have the same culture, experiences, etc - is following along with the crowd a good thing? Is the crowd the best of us, or the worst of us? Are we are herd animal?
Its so easy to go along with whatever is making the headlines. Isn't it better to be that kid who is at least thinking independently, and having the childhood that humans were designed to have.
It's a fine line and you have to go with some of it safely. However, there are items that are 100% toxic and as parents we need to decide what those are. Things like rap/hip-hop music as an example, or TikTok. There are some things that just can't be consumed safely by impressionable minds. When they're older they can get into them if they so wish, but my hope is that their brains by that point would at least be mature enough to see how toxic these things are. My job as a parent is not to make the world appear peachy perfect for them, but to give them the tools to deal with the world when they're adults
There is no such thing. All these are dopamine manglers fueled by low-quality content that have no real benefit.
> "my child becoming a pariah"
If having no smartphone is all it takes to be a pariah, I think it's a good thing to be a pariah ! Or more seriously: there are much better ways to socialize than socialize on the phone (like participating in real/non-virtual activities with other people). I guess as the generations goes, people will eventually forget that the notion of social network largely predates telecommunications.
The main point to remember is that the fones we carry aren't for us. They are data-gathering tools for various spy enterprises. Any utility we get out of our fones is largely incidental, or at best it's bait to get us into the trap.
It's interesting that most of the replies here focus on the children aspect, while the same spy-device paradigm applies as much or more to adults.
The bottom line is I just don't get enough utility out of my devices to justify spending all that privacy on them. Plus ads make the internet unusable on them. I'll just use my laptop because it's more convenient.
I hate smartphones mostly because of this (although there are more reasons), and I wish I could stop using them altogether, but there are too many people out there who only communicate using text applications (WhatsApp and Telegram, mostly. Which are about the only things I've installed aside from Firefox, which I also use only rarely). So in the end it's basically a choice of eschewing your social life or eschewing your privacy, at least partially. I've managed to convince a grand total of 0 people to use other means of communication such as email. There are also some services that I use (and some that I'm forced to use as part of my job, although these go to the company phone) that just plain refuse to offer a web interface and I can only use them as a fucking app. Who knows which data might it gather.
Windows users are also suffering a similar problem because of the smartphonisation of the desktop (side note, I hate that people still use that meme about "one version of Windows is bad and the next one is good". W10 still has most of the problems of W8, and some of them are even worse. I don't think we're ever going to get a "good" Windows ever again). We need to choose between being able to run old, trusty software or being actually in control of our computer (in terms of privacy, updates and so on). Then again I suspect that I have only a few months left of personal Windows usage.
The replies focus on the children aspect because that strips away the most challenging counterargument: why shouldn't adults be able to decide, as many if not most do, that they do get lots of utility out of their phones and don't much care about being spied on incidentally? It's hard to tell a story where smartphones are more dangerous than smoking, and despite being completely illegal for kids we mostly let people do it once they're old enough.
My phone is for me, whether or not FAANG et al gets some value out of it.
I get more utility out of my tech interactions on my phone than I give to "various spy enterprises". I use many services to their maximum, IMO negating most of the benefit they gain from loss-leader products that are their bait for me-as-a-product.
You _are_ being tracked and monetized. Your devices _are_ fingerprinted, and your demographics are tabulated and collated. The modern web doesn't have an effective opt-out (Ye Olde Web didn't either), so you may as well go all-in and extract as much value of your own as you can from the system.
The answer to any technology-oriented problem is better communication.
I had problems with my kids use of social media - until I involved myself in it with them, so that I could see the things they were learning and enjoying. And then, having established the reality of their world, I communicated with them about my concerns - the tracking, the groupthink, the dangers of online interactions with strangers.
Most important of all, I gained their trust and inspected their phones, and read their conversations. Yes, there were definitely things to be concerned about - and so we discussed it, rationally, and have established a 'review schedule' where I can get involved in their digital lives a little more.
Its not easy. Teenagers are obstinate and difficult at best of times. But parenting is important, and the basis of all good parenting is the ability to communicate with your kids.
> The answer to any technology-oriented problem is better communication.
I agree with this for the question of what to do in the concrete situation of handling your kids. In a larger sense though the answer to technology can be also regulation and laws.
To keep kids safe today we have an infinitude of regulations specifying how kids toys, stairways, etc... are to be built. Some of this is over the top, but it would also be insane to expect parents to inspect the precise chemical composition of every toy their kid gets, and research how toxic it might be.
We need to build a societal agreement that data gathered in the name of targeting advertisment is toxic, and ban it. No "consent opt-in/opt-out" either, just a ban. This will obviously take time to get right. And it would make Google poorer so it will be hard to get this done. Think environmental regulations that started with social movements in the 60s/70s and are strong enough to do their job only decades later.
Most parents don't realize how little control they actually have over their kids' lives. If a parent doesn't provide a consequence-free communication channel with a child, the child will quickly learn that communication leads to punishment and will refuse to communicate.
It’s great to hear you are involved in their lives without being overbearing. I guess all a kid wants to know/feel is that their parent will be there for them.
My 14yo daughter came home from binging 80s movies with friends and wistfully told me, “I wish I’d grown up in the 80s.”
I said, “Why??”
She said, “Because everything was a lot like it is now, but no smartphones.”
I don't think there's a way out. I believe it's up to us to accept the reality that this problem is only going to get worse before it gets better.
I firmly believe your tools as a parent is to start understanding concepts taught in Stoicism, Taoism, Buddhism, and more.
The ideas around moderation, detachment, and effortless action should be praised. Technology is a tool if you consider these ideas. It can work for you, not against you.
I wouldn't be in the same position I am today without my early addiction to the internet & video games. My parents tried their best. Now being 30 with 2 young kids, I'm more prepared than ever to fight the good fight. It's going to be hard, but perhaps when they grow up they will also look back to these lessons I was trying to teach them.
Avoiding Google Search is already a sign of being at the more radical end of the spectrum IMO.
I don't think avoiding big tech is really possible without joining a separate offline society. You can reduce it but you're not going to keep your kids offline without their friends also being offline.
Seems like a bit of an overreaction. My kids are just a few years younger than OP's, but I'm not going to cut them off.
I will teach them the dangers of being online and will force the phones to use a VPN through our house with PiHole installed. I may or may not go as far as putting a custom cert on the phone so I can monitor all the traffic -- that will depend on if I catch them violating my trust. My default stance will be no custom cert.
But if I do add a custom cert it won't be a secret -- they will know that I'm monitoring them until they earn the trust back and we will review the logs together.
"Get them young and addicted to the next hit", The digital drugs companies said. Why do you think they call them 'users' all the time.
If the effects of the digital drug Facebook™ or Instagram™ has worn off this last billion addicts, then the new digital crack / cocaine, TikTok™ will onboard the next billion.
Now the twist has taken another turn for the worse, after what happened in this story about its glorified recommendation algorithm [0] that dictates what is seen and unseen and how it manipulates its users addicted to it.
After looking at that [0] and this post, I would prefer NOT to be in the crowd of addicts to suggest that: "TikTok is the best thing to have happened to the Internet" [1]. That goes for all of them.
I realized that if I am to protect my child from smartphone addiction, I need to start with myself and that is the hardest part really.
So far I try not to use it in their presence and if it appears, we speak of it as "the monolith". The monolith is mysterious, but ultimately it's just a slab of glass. Less interesting than e.g. musical toys.
Also you can't take the monolith to the pool, which happens to be our weekly family activity.
As for internet access(in its modern incarnation), because that's what it's actually all about: I have a little quiz in mind, which should at least help my child familiarize themselves with the dangers of sharing data and pay-to-win schemes.
Well done. Your children will definitely thank you for reasons not
even apparent today. Teaching children about technology, rather than
letting them be taught by technology is the key here.
This is the new tobacco. As research accumulates on detrimental
effects (individual cognitive impact and societal damage) it's going
to get easier to do the right thing for your children. It's hard right
now in 2022, as seen in the many hostile comments from those who've
made other life choices and feel obliged to defend them.
During the Facebook hearing, they said that its internal data shows that Facebook is most harmful for 14 year old girls. I believe that if you can somehow shield your daughter of that age from social media, she will be fine.
I had a no display rule for our toddler but during my absence, her mother introduced her to the iPad, and now she watches YouTube on it whenever I’m not around. I know that the American Pediatric Association recommends limiting screen time to 1hr a day, which I also agree with. I don’t know yet how to proceed once she gets older. I think I want to teach her programming and I want to disallow social media. Already now I disallowed her watching Russian videos on YouTube and she doesn’t watch them any more because I said to her that I don’t like those videos.
I have two teens. If I give them the credit they deserve and try to trust them I find they make the right choices for themselves. Both my boys have smart phones (and both laugh at the whole tiktok thing).
Granted the kids in this story are much younger, but when they are older, if they are denied a phone that allows them to communicate with their friends on an equal playing field, they will be left out. They may even resent you in the end. Educate kids about tech, teach them how to deal with tech smartly, but do not deny it from them because of some ideological fear. Kids today are sometimes smarter than kids in my day. Give them credit.
There is no problem giving phones to kids as soon as they can read: just disable all data (including wifi!). There are plenty of useful (translators, scientific calculators, maps/compass), informative (ebooks, kiwix) and entertainment apps (music/video), and even games that don't require permanent data access. Communication (ostensibly the main reason parents are giving them phones) works fine with just voice and SMS.
It also helps a lot that (1) AFAIK pretty much all primary schools (<12 years) in our country forbid phones in our country, and (2) we as parents don't spend much time on phones ourselves (we do spend a lot of time behind a laptop, but they usually just see screens full of boring text and number tables, so they don't associate them with something desirable), and (3) pretty much none of the other kids they know have a smartphone.
I expect things will be very different in middle school (>12 years), but we still have a few years to revise and refine our strategy.
My oldest just got her first smartphone at 11. But it comes with rules. Screentime is limited. The phone does not go up to her room, it stays downstairs. She's allowed to take it out with her only when that makes sense for keeping in touch. No mobile internet (yet). We have open and frank talks about the dangerous sides of the internet and social media. And at 11, she can understand those warnings.
It's sad that people are having this fearful response to technology. Yes, companies are tracking you, manipulating you subconsciously, and making money off you. But you don't have to take it as a threat. You still have agency over your life and you can decide how much you interact with tech and when. You don't have to run screaming.
In terms of being opted-in by somebody else: yeah, that sucks, and has been a danger ever since Facebook started auto tagging faces from pictures at parties. But we need to pressure them to add controls, not just pull ourselves away from society.
I think main issue is that http://www is commercial and it will not create authentic personalities out of it.
It is driving dopamine in wrong direction.
Today we have great personalities on internet because they are created when internet was not commercial.
Mine perspective is build on music, innovative and authentic personality was never created with exposure to "top pop charts" music.
I think we should embrace it. Take a step back and look at what happened here.
Remember that for 99% of people, seeing a video of their friends is a happy interaction. It's the kind of thing an ML model would notice, even if TikTok didn't.
As the author points out, of course TikTok uses wifi data to know. It's not even wifi -- it's "Both people connected to our service from the same IP. These people are related in some way."
If you think that's sinister, you must think Dan's pretty sinister too. Checking IPs is moderation 101, and dates back to the dawn of chat rooms.
I think everyone is nervous (and rightly so) that bigcos know so much about us. We've also seen how quickly the political situation can change -- it's easy to imagine a dictator using this knowledge to purge undesirables.
But other countries are already doing that. That is the reality in which we live. My wife and I are doing IVF in June, and with any luck, I'll have the opportunity to help guide a new soul into the world. I feel that my main responsibility is to prepare them to lead the happiest life they can -- all else being equal, optimizing your family tree for happiness seems like a reasonable approach.
Cutting out "the entire future" in the name of protecting one's children isn't something that I'm particularly interested in trying. To each their own; but someday my kiddo is going to realize that I can't protect her, the same way my father can't protect me from ruining my life by tweeting out certain combinations of words. I want her to be prepared to take advantage of the world, not hide her from it.
I'll be bookmarking this comment. In 14 years, I suspect I won't feel the same way when she's running around with the local boys. Parents don't share in the upside, only the downside, so it's hard to resist the urge to shut down their behavior and box them up for their own protection.
It's good we'll have data points on both approaches. I don't know that the author's approach would be bad, but it's hard to imagine myself being who I am today if I were their kid.
(One of the neat things about IVF is that you can choose the gender of your children. Deciding to have a daughter was a very "we live in the future" moment.)
As a parent of 4 and 6yo, who NEVER used tablet and their lifetime usage of smartphone can be counted in minutes I'd like to point out different fact which seems to be completely forgotten besdises the social aspect/addiction - child eyesight is developing and while before you saw myopia at university students (caused by extensive reading of materials), you can see it often at small kids nowadays (I just read press release from Czech opticians days ago that 70% of pre-schoolers are using smartphone daily) caused by staring at screen (from short distance) for long periods of time.
FFS people, don't you value eyesight of your kids? I ruined my eyesight by staring at smartphone displays in last 12 years (it was also my work for few years), so I am very vary what can smartphone usage cause.
[+] [-] 97s|4 years ago|reply
I think I made a very good decision not to give my son a phone until he is driving. Instead of surfing tiktok all day, he learns music, does origami, plays outside, helps me with the garden and many other things that bring him a lot of joy. I obviously help him with whatever interest he has, and I think him seeing the way his friends handle social media has made him not really want a phone anymore. He doesn't even mention it to me like he did when all his friends first started getting one. He sees how addicted they are and how he doesn't even have those friends over anymore.
I think people over estimate the "pariah" thing. I grew up in a family of alcoholism, so I chose never to drink. At first people would ask me to drink with them at parties and such. Eventually they realized I never gave in, so when they were out buying alcohol, they would always buy me a pack of soda so when I came I would have something to drink with them. So if the friends are good, I don't think our kids will be pariahs. I think/hope that instead our kids will just find people who appreciate and understand their choices or the choices of their parents. If they don't, are they that good of friends after all? I think it is okay to have less friends, if the quality is higher.
[+] [-] yumraj|4 years ago|reply
My older did not get a cellphone till 9th grade, that too because the kid used to walk to school. I use pi-hole at home and the kid has never used FB, Instagram, Tiktok. Unfortunately kids use Discord for communicating, so had to allow that, but we had a discussion about the language to use on such platforms and so on. And, so far I believe the kid is fine since I didn't teach them to just use the social platforms responsibly, rather I taught them (I hope) to not use the social platforms at all except for messaging when absolutely necessary. Moreover I try to tell the kid to use browser as much as possible rather than get the apps.
And, for the record I don't use FB, IG, or any other platforms myself - so we lead by example.
So, far I have not heard much protest. What happens when the kid will be in college is anyone's guess. But I personally believe that teaching kids a mistrust of social networks is inherently better than trying to teach them how to use them responsibly, since I don't believe they can be used responsibly.
EDIT: to add, my kid uses DDG instead of Google for search. Does use Gmail, but also has own domain with custom emails. PS5 and Switch, but no network play. Changed password immediately when was forced to use Gmail on a public school computer once.. So, I guess we're just teaching kids different things.
[+] [-] tstrimple|4 years ago|reply
I have a daughter who is 10. She and most of her friends have a smart phone. She is friends with a neighbor girl who is home schooled. When they hang out, the home schooled girl who has extremely limited access to electronics just wants to sit inside and watch shows and play games while my daughter wants to go outside and play. In fact, when she's hanging out with any of her friends none of them are glued to their phones. Anecdotes are fun!
[+] [-] polishdude20|4 years ago|reply
I noticed as I finished high school and post secondary school, my friends became people who I actually wanted to hang out with. I had complete freedom to find others to socialize with that were more similar to me.
I guess my question is, how much of an impact does not having a smartphone when you're a teenager have when you reach adulthood? Based on what you've described with your son, it seems like he's benefitting more from not having one.
[+] [-] jjav|4 years ago|reply
My child is also 11. Fortunately none of the friends or anyone in class has a smartphone yet.
I think this is somewhat easier here, in Silicon Valley. Most of the parents are either directly in tech or in very adjacent fields so we experience how the sausage is made and want no part of it. So parents are pretty aligned on no social media and minimal tech. I don't use a smartphone myself, so helps in leading by example. (I have one, but mostly it sits in my work backpack and I hardly ever take it out.)
Most of them have laptops, although only very recently. So they can research (DDG, never google) topics for school and personal interest but it's not something they have nearby most of the time.
So luckily they still get together and do the same things I was doing at 11, ride bikes everywhere and play in the park, forest and beach. Weekends we go camping in areas with minimal to no cell signals (also wonderful for parents, impossible to check jira tickets when there is no signal!). I'm sure it'll get more difficult in middle school and beyond, time will tell.
[+] [-] abledon|4 years ago|reply
That is so sad. Interesting to see that china has 'LOCKED' down screen time controls for their youth, but they 'strategically' let tiktok run unfettered in other countries
[+] [-] micromacrofoot|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] codebolt|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ss108|4 years ago|reply
I don't have a child, but I wouldn't mind buying them a Nokia brick once they are around 12 or 13 lol
[+] [-] PeterBarrett|4 years ago|reply
I would like to say that we can teach kids to have a healthy relationship with the internet and social media but sites like TicTok are engineered to be as addictive as possible so that would be naïve of me to say.
In saying that, if you outright ban these sites in your house it just means that when it comes time for your kids to be more independent they could possibly have no knowledge of how to healthily use social media and then be worse off than if they had access early.
There is no easy answer here, at the end of the day it will be their decision, all you can do is teach them to navigate the digital world and then be there to help when they make mistakes.
[+] [-] estaseuropano|4 years ago|reply
It is a basic but at system level not obvious insight that you cannot ignore reality in how you educate your or anyone else's children. It is easy to be careful and conservative but for education to be useful you have to teach them about difficult topics early and thoroughly and both the substance and the methodology have to actually fit the reality these children can and do encounter every day and WILL eventually encounter once they leave the protected environment of school and parents.
You simply cannot teach a child to be a mature, employable, self-confident, independent, informed and sensible adult without the tools of the normal world. By all means, keep them away from tech completely and there are exactly two scenarios: 1) they sneak their way into getting access 2) they fall into an adult life they are not prepared for and will suffer for it.
You, as a parent or educator, mist face reality and discomfort yourself and engage with the world your children encounter. Teach them understanding and insight, not shame or fear.
[+] [-] kradeelav|4 years ago|reply
My circumstances were a little unusual (only child with physical disabilities) but not once did I feel like a social pariah what with books, games, books again, one or two loyal friends, pets, exploring the accessible parts of the backyard and digging up insects ...
There's a happy middle as far as giving into Big Tech vs not, basically.
[+] [-] basedgod|4 years ago|reply
do you people ever try to have an independent thought outside of the propaganda of big business ? what kind of nonsense of this, that children should be expected to compete for their attention span against literal city sized teams working to maximize the size of their algorithm
[+] [-] hans1729|4 years ago|reply
I don't think so. Don't underestimate the intelligence of kids. If your kid actually understands the way dopamine works (on a sufficient level), they will cultivate their own way of attention-management. That's perfectly doable, kids just soak up knowledge. They have to learn it anyway, so the later you start, the worse the consequences of both social isolation and bad usage-culture will be.
/edit:
to add to my original point, when your kids decide for themselves that they want something, and they feel that you are unfairly restricting their access to it, the consequence will be that they demonize you. Where that leads, for them, for their relationship with you, for the other points you're trying to get across, is never a good place. Be very careful about it.
[+] [-] Freak_NL|4 years ago|reply
I do wish that more parents (and society in general) would be more sensible about a minimum age for smartphones; it just keeps creeping down. 10/11/12 would be somewhat manageable and it gives parents a chance to help guide their use.
And of course all the popular must have apps already have age limits they absolutely refuse to enforce. TikTok has 13 as the minimum age. WhatsApp (used by every Dutch teenager from 10 onwards) has a minimum age of 16 in the EU…
[+] [-] rglullis|4 years ago|reply
There are "indie web" alternatives to the big social networks which everyone can use. Social networks without the algorithms that make you doom scrolling, messaging apps that do not track you or read your messages for ads, photo apps that do not have likes and do not gamify karma-whoring, and so on.
To make it even better, these apps are not exclusive to smartphone platforms, so they won't need a smartphone just to participate.
At least here in Germany, even my non-techy friends that are totally addicted to Instagram and Facebook don't publish anything with their kids. I am hoping that by the time their kids have grown a bit, these tools will be more popularized and accessible so that their kids don't fall into the same trap as their parents, and perhaps even the parents take the opportunity to do the switch themselves.
[+] [-] jaspax|4 years ago|reply
Why not? If you think that smartphone usage is harmful to your child, then you absolutely are justified in letting them be "that kid". Being moderately socially constrained is actually a perfectly fine thing if the alternative is worse.
> Being socially excluded was the bane of my life in school, and I'll be damned if I'm going to be a contributing factor to my child becoming a pariah
I don't know anything about you in particular, so I can't say whether this is a good idea or not. But we have to recognize the tradeoffs: unfettered access to social media from a young age with all of its downsides OR being the only kid without a cellphone and those accompanying downsides. Which one harms your kid more? Think about it and make your decision, but once you've made that decision you have to bite the bullet and accept the costs.
[+] [-] KptMarchewa|4 years ago|reply
As someone who had similar experiences, thanks for letting your children be in control of at least some part of their lives. You're doing the good thing.
[+] [-] verisimi|4 years ago|reply
Its so easy to go along with whatever is making the headlines. Isn't it better to be that kid who is at least thinking independently, and having the childhood that humans were designed to have.
[+] [-] amelius|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zo1|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JodieBenitez|4 years ago|reply
There is no such thing. All these are dopamine manglers fueled by low-quality content that have no real benefit.
> "my child becoming a pariah"
If having no smartphone is all it takes to be a pariah, I think it's a good thing to be a pariah ! Or more seriously: there are much better ways to socialize than socialize on the phone (like participating in real/non-virtual activities with other people). I guess as the generations goes, people will eventually forget that the notion of social network largely predates telecommunications.
[+] [-] devney|4 years ago|reply
It's interesting that most of the replies here focus on the children aspect, while the same spy-device paradigm applies as much or more to adults.
The bottom line is I just don't get enough utility out of my devices to justify spending all that privacy on them. Plus ads make the internet unusable on them. I'll just use my laptop because it's more convenient.
[+] [-] gordaco|4 years ago|reply
Windows users are also suffering a similar problem because of the smartphonisation of the desktop (side note, I hate that people still use that meme about "one version of Windows is bad and the next one is good". W10 still has most of the problems of W8, and some of them are even worse. I don't think we're ever going to get a "good" Windows ever again). We need to choose between being able to run old, trusty software or being actually in control of our computer (in terms of privacy, updates and so on). Then again I suspect that I have only a few months left of personal Windows usage.
[+] [-] SpicyLemonZest|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] web007|4 years ago|reply
I get more utility out of my tech interactions on my phone than I give to "various spy enterprises". I use many services to their maximum, IMO negating most of the benefit they gain from loss-leader products that are their bait for me-as-a-product.
You _are_ being tracked and monetized. Your devices _are_ fingerprinted, and your demographics are tabulated and collated. The modern web doesn't have an effective opt-out (Ye Olde Web didn't either), so you may as well go all-in and extract as much value of your own as you can from the system.
[+] [-] aa-jv|4 years ago|reply
I had problems with my kids use of social media - until I involved myself in it with them, so that I could see the things they were learning and enjoying. And then, having established the reality of their world, I communicated with them about my concerns - the tracking, the groupthink, the dangers of online interactions with strangers.
Most important of all, I gained their trust and inspected their phones, and read their conversations. Yes, there were definitely things to be concerned about - and so we discussed it, rationally, and have established a 'review schedule' where I can get involved in their digital lives a little more.
Its not easy. Teenagers are obstinate and difficult at best of times. But parenting is important, and the basis of all good parenting is the ability to communicate with your kids.
[+] [-] Certhas|4 years ago|reply
I agree with this for the question of what to do in the concrete situation of handling your kids. In a larger sense though the answer to technology can be also regulation and laws.
To keep kids safe today we have an infinitude of regulations specifying how kids toys, stairways, etc... are to be built. Some of this is over the top, but it would also be insane to expect parents to inspect the precise chemical composition of every toy their kid gets, and research how toxic it might be.
We need to build a societal agreement that data gathered in the name of targeting advertisment is toxic, and ban it. No "consent opt-in/opt-out" either, just a ban. This will obviously take time to get right. And it would make Google poorer so it will be hard to get this done. Think environmental regulations that started with social movements in the 60s/70s and are strong enough to do their job only decades later.
[+] [-] paskozdilar|4 years ago|reply
Most parents don't realize how little control they actually have over their kids' lives. If a parent doesn't provide a consequence-free communication channel with a child, the child will quickly learn that communication leads to punishment and will refuse to communicate.
[+] [-] prox|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WerBn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KptMarchewa|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] reader_x|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thenerdhead|4 years ago|reply
I firmly believe your tools as a parent is to start understanding concepts taught in Stoicism, Taoism, Buddhism, and more.
The ideas around moderation, detachment, and effortless action should be praised. Technology is a tool if you consider these ideas. It can work for you, not against you.
I wouldn't be in the same position I am today without my early addiction to the internet & video games. My parents tried their best. Now being 30 with 2 young kids, I'm more prepared than ever to fight the good fight. It's going to be hard, but perhaps when they grow up they will also look back to these lessons I was trying to teach them.
[+] [-] DavideNL|4 years ago|reply
Well in the long run there is: laws. The EU is finally moving in the right direction at least.
So what we must do is vote for political parties that support this. And support/donate to people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems
But yea, it will get worse and take time before it gets better indeed.
[+] [-] abledon|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barrkel|4 years ago|reply
I don't think avoiding big tech is really possible without joining a separate offline society. You can reduce it but you're not going to keep your kids offline without their friends also being offline.
[+] [-] jedberg|4 years ago|reply
I will teach them the dangers of being online and will force the phones to use a VPN through our house with PiHole installed. I may or may not go as far as putting a custom cert on the phone so I can monitor all the traffic -- that will depend on if I catch them violating my trust. My default stance will be no custom cert.
But if I do add a custom cert it won't be a secret -- they will know that I'm monitoring them until they earn the trust back and we will review the logs together.
[+] [-] rvz|4 years ago|reply
If the effects of the digital drug Facebook™ or Instagram™ has worn off this last billion addicts, then the new digital crack / cocaine, TikTok™ will onboard the next billion.
Now the twist has taken another turn for the worse, after what happened in this story about its glorified recommendation algorithm [0] that dictates what is seen and unseen and how it manipulates its users addicted to it.
After looking at that [0] and this post, I would prefer NOT to be in the crowd of addicts to suggest that: "TikTok is the best thing to have happened to the Internet" [1]. That goes for all of them.
Once this one wears off, on to the next hit.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28135484
[+] [-] Tade0|4 years ago|reply
So far I try not to use it in their presence and if it appears, we speak of it as "the monolith". The monolith is mysterious, but ultimately it's just a slab of glass. Less interesting than e.g. musical toys.
Also you can't take the monolith to the pool, which happens to be our weekly family activity.
As for internet access(in its modern incarnation), because that's what it's actually all about: I have a little quiz in mind, which should at least help my child familiarize themselves with the dangers of sharing data and pay-to-win schemes.
[+] [-] nonrandomstring|4 years ago|reply
This is the new tobacco. As research accumulates on detrimental effects (individual cognitive impact and societal damage) it's going to get easier to do the right thing for your children. It's hard right now in 2022, as seen in the many hostile comments from those who've made other life choices and feel obliged to defend them.
[+] [-] lynguist|4 years ago|reply
I had a no display rule for our toddler but during my absence, her mother introduced her to the iPad, and now she watches YouTube on it whenever I’m not around. I know that the American Pediatric Association recommends limiting screen time to 1hr a day, which I also agree with. I don’t know yet how to proceed once she gets older. I think I want to teach her programming and I want to disallow social media. Already now I disallowed her watching Russian videos on YouTube and she doesn’t watch them any more because I said to her that I don’t like those videos.
[+] [-] harel|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] em500|4 years ago|reply
It also helps a lot that (1) AFAIK pretty much all primary schools (<12 years) in our country forbid phones in our country, and (2) we as parents don't spend much time on phones ourselves (we do spend a lot of time behind a laptop, but they usually just see screens full of boring text and number tables, so they don't associate them with something desirable), and (3) pretty much none of the other kids they know have a smartphone.
I expect things will be very different in middle school (>12 years), but we still have a few years to revise and refine our strategy.
[+] [-] psiops|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway787544|4 years ago|reply
In terms of being opted-in by somebody else: yeah, that sucks, and has been a danger ever since Facebook started auto tagging faces from pictures at parties. But we need to pressure them to add controls, not just pull ourselves away from society.
[+] [-] djuric42|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sillysaurusx|4 years ago|reply
Remember that for 99% of people, seeing a video of their friends is a happy interaction. It's the kind of thing an ML model would notice, even if TikTok didn't.
As the author points out, of course TikTok uses wifi data to know. It's not even wifi -- it's "Both people connected to our service from the same IP. These people are related in some way."
If you think that's sinister, you must think Dan's pretty sinister too. Checking IPs is moderation 101, and dates back to the dawn of chat rooms.
I think everyone is nervous (and rightly so) that bigcos know so much about us. We've also seen how quickly the political situation can change -- it's easy to imagine a dictator using this knowledge to purge undesirables.
But other countries are already doing that. That is the reality in which we live. My wife and I are doing IVF in June, and with any luck, I'll have the opportunity to help guide a new soul into the world. I feel that my main responsibility is to prepare them to lead the happiest life they can -- all else being equal, optimizing your family tree for happiness seems like a reasonable approach.
Cutting out "the entire future" in the name of protecting one's children isn't something that I'm particularly interested in trying. To each their own; but someday my kiddo is going to realize that I can't protect her, the same way my father can't protect me from ruining my life by tweeting out certain combinations of words. I want her to be prepared to take advantage of the world, not hide her from it.
I'll be bookmarking this comment. In 14 years, I suspect I won't feel the same way when she's running around with the local boys. Parents don't share in the upside, only the downside, so it's hard to resist the urge to shut down their behavior and box them up for their own protection.
It's good we'll have data points on both approaches. I don't know that the author's approach would be bad, but it's hard to imagine myself being who I am today if I were their kid.
(One of the neat things about IVF is that you can choose the gender of your children. Deciding to have a daughter was a very "we live in the future" moment.)
[+] [-] Markoff|4 years ago|reply
FFS people, don't you value eyesight of your kids? I ruined my eyesight by staring at smartphone displays in last 12 years (it was also my work for few years), so I am very vary what can smartphone usage cause.