[dunkelheit]

> The result is that their promises about not attacking someone if "they stay out of NATO" are worthless crap and the only way for smaller European countries to stop them is with force of arms and help of a big military alliance.

The sequence of events: 1) Ukraine government states that it is their priority to join NATO 2) Russia amasses troops at the border, states "don't join NATO, there will be consequences" 3) NATO and Ukraine say "you are bluffing, we'll do whatever we want" 4) Russia invades.

Where is the lie?

[geoka9]

> The sequence of events: 1) Ukraine government states that it is their priority to join NATO

I would say the more complete sequence of events is more like:

-2) Ukrainians are largely against joining NATO according to public polls pre-2014 (with neutrality being also a clause in the Constitution)

-1) Russia annexes Crimea and invades Eastern Ukraine

0) Ukrainians become largely pro-NATO.

...

[wonderwonder]

You forgot a little thing that happened before this, that Russia had already invaded and taken Crimea in 2014. Its not like after that Russia should have been treated like a rational actor and their past actions ignored. What should Ukraine have done, just sat there and watched as Russia ate them piece by piece naively believing that this annexation will be the last as long as we do exactly what they say?

[augustuspolius]

Did you forget #0?

0) Russia invades Ukraine in 2014: annexes Crimea and funds an insurgence in its 2 eastern regions.

[sofixa]

The lie is that Ukraine wasn't even considered for NATO membership and would be ineligible due to lack of territorial integrity ( Donbas and Crimea). NATO and Ukraine didn't claim Russia was bluffing, Ukraine refused to surrender their autonomy by promising they'll never join NATO. And of course, the real lie is that Russia was going to war no matter what. Leaked conversations of Kadyrov show that Russia was prepared to go in since last year, and the negotiations asking for impossible things was just a distraction. Like the Austrians did with Serbia in WWI.

Please go whatabout something else, people are literally getting slaughtered over the delusions of an ageing autocrat who has lost touch with reality.

[dunkelheit]

> The lie is that Ukraine wasn't even considered for NATO membership and would be ineligible due to lack of territorial integrity ( Donbas and Crimea). NATO and Ukraine didn't claim Russia was bluffing, Ukraine refused to surrender their autonomy by promising they'll never join NATO.

Isn't it a bit contradictory? If Ukraine can't join NATO, then promising it won't is irrelevant. Rather, it was their stated goal to somehow resolve the territorial intergrity question and then join NATO. So ineligibility was just a problem to resolve, not an insurmountable obstacle. And of course increasing military cooperation can be done without joining.

I agree that "calling bluff" is not the best word. Rather, it was politically infeasible for both Ukraine (runs counter to their stated goals) and the West (looks too similar to what Chamberlain did) to enter into an agreement with Russia. So it didn't happen.

> And of course, the real lie is that Russia was going to war no matter what. Leaked conversations of Kadyrov show that Russia was prepared to go in since last year, and the negotiations asking for impossible things was just a distraction. Like the Austrians did with Serbia in WWI.

Even if the leaks are true, how does it prove that the invasion was inevitable? Yes, Russia was preparing for war to make the threat credible and this preparation included making detailed plans. Doesn't mean that Putin couldn't scrap those plans.

> Please go whatabout something else, people are literally getting slaughtered over the delusions of an ageing autocrat who has lost touch with reality.

Your comment was better without this addition.