According to the original complaint, a few months after being interviewed by an FBI agent on returning from his trip to North Korea, Griffith had the following conversation over text messages:
Griffith: I need to send 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY] between North and South Korea.
Other Guy: "Isn't that in violations of sanctions?"
Griffith: It is.
A few day later, also in text messages to someone else:
Someone: What interest does North Korea have in cryptocurrency?
Griffith: Probably avoiding sanctions... who knows."
It looks like it wasn't just speaking at a conference after being denied permission from the US that got him in trouble, it looks like both before and after the trip he was working on a variety of ways to get the North Korean government more onboard with cryptocurrency, including discussions about mining ventures, moving funds in and out of the country, and offering connections with other cryptocurrency people.
How far down the "flew 8,000 miles to get there, climbed over the barbed wire fence, licked both his thumbs, and pressed them against the shiny parts labeled 'DANGER! 25,000 VOLTS!'..." rabbit-hole-of-stupid should one have to go, before it's 100% okay for me to stop caring whether or not his sentence was just?
Yeah, it doesn't exactly seem like a William Worthy[1] type of scenario.
If you actively aid a country in avoiding financial sanctions† then you pretty much only have yourself to blame when you eventually get thrown in prison for a few years.
I speculate, that there are plenty of North Koreans living in South Korea and perhaps even the US who send funds to the family members in N. Korea. Are they all guilty of evading sanctions regime and can be sentenced to prison? Does this extend to any country that does trade with North Korea? North Korea has a pretty advanced missile program and actively trades in them with many countries including those which are not un-friendly to the US.
I don't know how this makes sense for just making an presentation. On the other hand, I don't know how the Feds will let him get away with sending 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTO] between N and S Korea. You cant stop Pakistan or Iran from trading with N. Korea but you can stop an ordinary American. We live in a weird world.
> I need to send 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY] between North and South Korea
I find this fascinating. How can you send any crypto between one country and the other? In reality, everyone who is using crypto is doing the transaction in every country where a validator/node is running. There is no concept of "sending BTC between Mexico and the USA". There may be a concept of someone paying USD money to somebody else to write something in the blockchain (i.e. write a transaction that says to move some BTC from Wallet A to Wallet B).
I have learned to expect almost any mainstream media headline with the word “after” to be misleading. “After” does not literally mean “because”, so it’s not a lie. But people read it that way.
“Putin condemned by west after attending anti-Nazi rally.”
“Ted Bundy sentenced to life in prison after misogynistic comment.”
Business Insider isn't a great source, but I don't like primary sources: They will be very biased in their own interest. A good secondary source can provide context, information from sources that disagree or have other perspectives or concerns, etc. That's one reason Wikipedia requires secondary sources.
"In 1992, he reemerged to win an unofficial rematch against Spassky. It was held in Yugoslavia, which was under a United Nations embargo at the time. His participation led to a conflict with the US government, which warned Fischer that his participation in the match would violate an executive order imposing US sanctions on Yugoslavia. The US government ultimately issued a warrant for his arrest. After that, Fischer lived as an émigré. In 2004, he was arrested in Japan and held for several months for using a passport that the US government had revoked. Eventually, he was granted an Icelandic passport and citizenship by a special act of the Icelandic Althing, allowing him to live there until his death in 2008."
I met Virgil at an academic workshop back in 2014. We went out in Amsterdam. He was a weird guy, to say the least (he’d probably be the first to agree). He was generally quite affable and obviously highly intelligent.
He’s an idiot for this fiasco. But it’s also sad to see him in jail; I don’t see how this benefits society in any way. Five years in prison seems like a disproportionate punishment for an arguably victimless crime. None of us is safer today because Virgil is in prison.
Victimless? North korea is not a victimless country. There's a reason why they are sactioned. He clearly broke a big and important law and knew he was doing it. idk what else one would expect
If you helped smuggle $1M in cash across the NK border you'd also be arrested and convicted for helping to evade sanctions. If anything crypto-enthusiasts should be happy to hear that the US government treats crypto as a legitimate means of moving money between nations, and punishes actors accordingly.
I'm glad he's a nice guy based on your interactions, but he knowingly tried to enrich an totalitarian state that has successfully built offensive nuclear weapons and is actively testing ICBMs. That's insanely anti-social behavior which endangers the lives of millions of innocent people in the region. He deserves those 5 years. You can't hide behind the curtain of victimless crypto-evangelism while also admitting in text convos that you're likely helping them evade sanctions.
Leaving aside the questions of whether this is a victimless crime, amply addressed by sibling comments, I'd like to point out that people like Virgil Griffith benefit from these sympathetic assessments, in large part for being part of our in-group, but most defendants do not. You wouldn't want to live in a system where these kinds of sentiments actually controlled even more than they already do.
What? North Korean government is the most totalitarian, brutal, ruthless state in the world today. You can't just play "there is no victim" card when you illegally help out an enemy government like that. Even if you're ideologically or for some other reason inclined to support NK, you need to understand that being a US citizen makes your actions extremely impactful on world stage. It seems like Virgil was truly in a position to help NK, which makes him responsible.
I think the punishment is not nearly enough. I believe the same thing should be done to people helping Russia evade sanctions too.
> Five years in prison seems like a disproportionate punishment for an arguably victimless crime
It's not victimless: the United States (government) is the victim, albeit one that's not particularly sympathetic.
Just because the victim is diffuse/a collective doesn't mean the wrongs against it are victimless - this is about as victimless as handing over nuclear secrets to another country (in quality, not severity).
How in the world do you see this victimless? North Korea has been violating human rights in it's own borders and South Korea. It has nukes pointed at Seoul holding it and US troops hostage.
I can't believe he only got 5 years in jail for this. It should've been life imprisonment for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations like North Korea.
Can you say the same for someone caught laundering money for Hamas or ISIS? That it's a victimless crime?
If someone is nice but dangerous through lack of judgement, then the nice doesn't matter because the dangerous is still dangerous and has to be dealt with.
He's in prison because he was willing to help hurt the world. It benefits society and we are all safer today because that person was relieved of his ability to act, and because of the warning the example sends to others.
I say that because of the specific factors in this case being about NK, not just because the US (my) government decreed something. IE, I care that he violated everyone else's trust, not that he violated a rule.
I think it's more about just being a high profile victim to send a public a message.
He openly defied the US government after they denied his travel. In a big F YOU, he still went anyway and did his thing. US government cant allow people to do such things so they had to throw him in prison. He should have just 'anonymously' video conferenced in if he really wanted to give the talk. It sucks but thats why he's in prison. Cant make the US government look foolish. He also should never have agreed to be interviewed by FBI agents without a lawyer.
NK has very talented hacking teams that have stolen $400M+ in crypto (in 2021 alone) as a way to fund themselves and evade financial sanctions. Virgil def got put on the US gov radar at which point he certainly became a causality of this cyber war.
So, people shouldn't face consequences for criminal actions because they are nerdy and good with computers? That's not how the real world works. Aiding a dictatorship in evading sanctions is very far from "victimless".
It benefits society because Virgil will now likely think a lot harder before attempting to do something so foolish. He thought he was flying under the radar and possibly teaching North Korea how to avoid sanctions.
Not surprised: it seems a common theme with crypto evangelists is the application of the blockchain to avoid sanctions. I don't think its deeply ideological (as in anti-America/Pro-NK) - it's more like they view US financial hegemony as a "competitor" to blockchain technology and a hinderance to global cryptocurrency adoption.
Why he would throw his life away like this seems silly. I don't see the point in taking payment for a presentation you could record and upload on youtube which can be readily viewed by North Korea's leadership.
> Judge Castel read a series of text messages and emails from Griffith in which the defendant admits to sharing information with North Korea for the express purpose of helping the repressive Kim regime evade sanctions.
The main lesson of the story is not that he was using crypto, but that he was conscientiously trying to enrich himself by conducting illegal activities with a sanctioned dictatorship.
Personally, if he’s being this blunt about his intentions, then it shouldn’t be a surprise that his actions landed him consequences.
Did his PhD at Caltech under Christof Koch in computation and neural systems, was a super talented mathematician... and then he gets involved in crypto.
I remember conversations with friends only a few years ago in which we would lament how young brilliant minds were eventually going on to work on adtech, and we would sigh and hope that the tide would turn.
GRIFFITH identified several DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference attendees who
appeared to work for the North Korean government, and who, during his
presentation, asked GRIFFITH specific questions about blockchain and
cryptocurrency and prompted discussions on technical aspects of those technologies.
After the DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference, GRIFFITH began formulating plans to
facilitate the exchange of cryptocurrency between the DPRK and South Korea, despite
knowing that assisting with such an exchange would violate sanctions against the
DPRK. GRIFFITH also encouraged other U.S. citizens to travel to North Korea,
including to attend the same DPRK Cryptocurrency Conference the following year.
Smart enough as he was, I'm sure he knew of the terrible human rights track record NK had. That he chose to start helping the NK government evade sanctions, I am not able to muster a lot of sympathy for the guy at this point.
This is so sad, how does locking him up for 5 years really helps anyone? or keep anyone safer? He did something stupid maybe, but his work was exploring how digital systems can help bring peace to the world, and he thought a good place for that to happen is NK, so who doesn't agree with that? None of the information he presented was secret, it was all publicly available.
What if he did the exact same presentation in youtube, and in NK they saw that presentation? What if someone in NK downloaded the open source implementation of that blockchain, participated on it, or even mined quite a few coins?
Could be argued the same about any open source program (and their developers) dealing with encrypted information in any way?
What was the problem? Going in person? Answering questions in the same way that he would do to any other person? Giving a "forbidden hint" that is basically spam all over internet by now?
I don't care about crypto, but I do care about what this precedent implies.
I would love to hear from Mr Griffith's perspective on this. 5 years in prison is a BFD. I wonder how the arrest went down, why he took a plea, what the details of his presentation were, so many things.
But some may hint at 'pay back' for old grievances : June 3, 2009. SFI researcher, Virgil Griffith, created a program called WikiScanner, which tracks computers used to make changes and edits to Wikipedia entries. WikiScanner revealed CIA and FBI computers were used to edit topics on the Iraq War and the Guantanamo prison. https://www.santafe.edu/news-center/news/media-channel-cia-a...
Doing the guidelines sentence exercise is sort of fun, in a nerd-snipey way, and is a way to understand a bit of how federal criminal law works for us non-lawyers.
Tech nerds (like myself) tend to think in terms of software and protocols. "If the server responds with a 200 OK to your request, then that means by definition that it gave you permission!" But this is a reminder that that's basically absurd. The government can actually just lock you up for violating the law and it doesn't matter what the stupid protocol says.
I met him at a summer school a couple of years ago, a remarkable character. He developed WikiScanner, which exposed the "beautification" of U.S. politician's Wikipedia pages, conducted from the White House and other government building's IP addresses, which was creative and in the public interest.
I'm surprised that giving a talk about blockchain and crypto-currencies would be considered that sensitive, as the whole Web is full of (open source) software and instructions how to use Ethereum, the ETH currency and related stuff.
> Griffith: I need to send 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY] between North and South Korea. Other Guy: "Isn't that in violations of sanctions?" Griffith: It is.
Strange: The Virgil Griffith that I met was very smart, not sure if he would have had such an exchange in an unencrypted medium. He came across as an ultra-tech savvy prankster that had also hacked his high school's payment system (he did not say that because he was prevented under court order, so he just quipped "google me").
Edit: I was wondering about that strange redaction of "[UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY]". Clearly, as he is working on Ethereum, that one has the ETH currency, so likely it was that. Could the unredacted just say "1 ETH" (not a secret)? Then the transfer would have just been symbolic, not actually evading sanctions at scale. On the other hand if he was (allegedly) talking about 1 million ETH or BTC then it would smell more like a serious crime, assuming for a moment that exchange really happened. [BTW, 1 ETH = ~$3,000 versus 1 BTC = $40,000 at the moment, so the unit makes an order of magnitude difference.]
[+] [-] danielvf|4 years ago|reply
Griffith: I need to send 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY] between North and South Korea. Other Guy: "Isn't that in violations of sanctions?" Griffith: It is.
A few day later, also in text messages to someone else:
Someone: What interest does North Korea have in cryptocurrency? Griffith: Probably avoiding sanctions... who knows."
It looks like it wasn't just speaking at a conference after being denied permission from the US that got him in trouble, it looks like both before and after the trip he was working on a variety of ways to get the North Korean government more onboard with cryptocurrency, including discussions about mining ventures, moving funds in and out of the country, and offering connections with other cryptocurrency people.
[+] [-] bell-cot|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DavidVoid|4 years ago|reply
If you actively aid a country in avoiding financial sanctions† then you pretty much only have yourself to blame when you eventually get thrown in prison for a few years.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Worthy#Right_to_travel...
†: Medical and food sanctions are a different question imo.
[+] [-] wnevets|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] haltingproblem|4 years ago|reply
I don't know how this makes sense for just making an presentation. On the other hand, I don't know how the Feds will let him get away with sending 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTO] between N and S Korea. You cant stop Pakistan or Iran from trading with N. Korea but you can stop an ordinary American. We live in a weird world.
[+] [-] levi-turner|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xtracto|4 years ago|reply
I find this fascinating. How can you send any crypto between one country and the other? In reality, everyone who is using crypto is doing the transaction in every country where a validator/node is running. There is no concept of "sending BTC between Mexico and the USA". There may be a concept of someone paying USD money to somebody else to write something in the blockchain (i.e. write a transaction that says to move some BTC from Wallet A to Wallet B).
[+] [-] mzs|4 years ago|reply
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1222646...
[+] [-] xnx|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pwdisswordfish9|4 years ago|reply
???
[+] [-] jwarden|4 years ago|reply
“Putin condemned by west after attending anti-Nazi rally.”
“Ted Bundy sentenced to life in prison after misogynistic comment.”
[+] [-] toomuchtodo|4 years ago|reply
Better title: "United States Citizen Pleads Guilty To Conspiring To Assist North Korea In Evading Sanctions"
[+] [-] mzs|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wolverine876|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ttybird2|4 years ago|reply
He is the creator of WikiScanner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiScanner https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-wikipedia-idUSN1...
He also created Tor2web with Aaron Swartz and used to work for the tor team.
Seems like an interesting guy. It's a shame that this happened.
The situation is kinda similar to the one with Bobby Fischer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Fischer
"In 1992, he reemerged to win an unofficial rematch against Spassky. It was held in Yugoslavia, which was under a United Nations embargo at the time. His participation led to a conflict with the US government, which warned Fischer that his participation in the match would violate an executive order imposing US sanctions on Yugoslavia. The US government ultimately issued a warrant for his arrest. After that, Fischer lived as an émigré. In 2004, he was arrested in Japan and held for several months for using a passport that the US government had revoked. Eventually, he was granted an Icelandic passport and citizenship by a special act of the Icelandic Althing, allowing him to live there until his death in 2008."
[+] [-] tofuahdude|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chatmasta|4 years ago|reply
He’s an idiot for this fiasco. But it’s also sad to see him in jail; I don’t see how this benefits society in any way. Five years in prison seems like a disproportionate punishment for an arguably victimless crime. None of us is safer today because Virgil is in prison.
[+] [-] mtoner23|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boc|4 years ago|reply
I'm glad he's a nice guy based on your interactions, but he knowingly tried to enrich an totalitarian state that has successfully built offensive nuclear weapons and is actively testing ICBMs. That's insanely anti-social behavior which endangers the lives of millions of innocent people in the region. He deserves those 5 years. You can't hide behind the curtain of victimless crypto-evangelism while also admitting in text convos that you're likely helping them evade sanctions.
[+] [-] tptacek|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] istjohn|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] some_random|4 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_North_Kor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_North_Korea
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwalliso
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mas...
[+] [-] gnulinux|4 years ago|reply
I think the punishment is not nearly enough. I believe the same thing should be done to people helping Russia evade sanctions too.
[+] [-] sangnoir|4 years ago|reply
It's not victimless: the United States (government) is the victim, albeit one that's not particularly sympathetic.
Just because the victim is diffuse/a collective doesn't mean the wrongs against it are victimless - this is about as victimless as handing over nuclear secrets to another country (in quality, not severity).
[+] [-] tomatowurst|4 years ago|reply
I can't believe he only got 5 years in jail for this. It should've been life imprisonment for aiding and abetting terrorist organizations like North Korea.
Can you say the same for someone caught laundering money for Hamas or ISIS? That it's a victimless crime?
[+] [-] Brian_K_White|4 years ago|reply
He's in prison because he was willing to help hurt the world. It benefits society and we are all safer today because that person was relieved of his ability to act, and because of the warning the example sends to others.
I say that because of the specific factors in this case being about NK, not just because the US (my) government decreed something. IE, I care that he violated everyone else's trust, not that he violated a rule.
[+] [-] edm0nd|4 years ago|reply
He openly defied the US government after they denied his travel. In a big F YOU, he still went anyway and did his thing. US government cant allow people to do such things so they had to throw him in prison. He should have just 'anonymously' video conferenced in if he really wanted to give the talk. It sucks but thats why he's in prison. Cant make the US government look foolish. He also should never have agreed to be interviewed by FBI agents without a lawyer.
NK has very talented hacking teams that have stolen $400M+ in crypto (in 2021 alone) as a way to fund themselves and evade financial sanctions. Virgil def got put on the US gov radar at which point he certainly became a causality of this cyber war.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59990477
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] paxys|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] starwind|4 years ago|reply
It sends a message to those would otherwise help North Korea (or Russia or Iran) of "don't violate sanctions."
[+] [-] micromacrofoot|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m3kw9|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ethbr0|4 years ago|reply
Making it easy for someone to bludgeon you over the head with a legal charge is your own fault. But the net impact of the charge can also be useless.
[+] [-] throwaw0123|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] spamizbad|4 years ago|reply
Why he would throw his life away like this seems silly. I don't see the point in taking payment for a presentation you could record and upload on youtube which can be readily viewed by North Korea's leadership.
[+] [-] starwind|4 years ago|reply
> Judge Castel read a series of text messages and emails from Griffith in which the defendant admits to sharing information with North Korea for the express purpose of helping the repressive Kim regime evade sanctions.
https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/04/12/former-ethereum...
[+] [-] siruncledrew|4 years ago|reply
Personally, if he’s being this blunt about his intentions, then it shouldn’t be a surprise that his actions landed him consequences.
[+] [-] pen2l|4 years ago|reply
I remember conversations with friends only a few years ago in which we would lament how young brilliant minds were eventually going on to work on adtech, and we would sigh and hope that the tide would turn.
Boy, we were not prepared for this tide.
Anyway, the NYSD release gives some interesting details: (https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/manhattan-us-attorney-a...)
Smart enough as he was, I'm sure he knew of the terrible human rights track record NK had. That he chose to start helping the NK government evade sanctions, I am not able to muster a lot of sympathy for the guy at this point.[+] [-] nmwnmw|4 years ago|reply
- Ethereum Proof of Stake [1]
- King of the Nerds TV Show
- Wikiscanner [2]
Source [3]
[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.09437 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiScanner [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil_Griffith
[+] [-] ricochet11|4 years ago|reply
For comparison here is a company that actually facilitated NK building Nuclear Weapons, 145 violations of the law , they got fined $15k more than Virgil and had no jail time. https://www.complianceweek.com/regulatory-enforcement/td-ban...
What a stupid and harmful legal system.
[+] [-] gmuslera|4 years ago|reply
Could be argued the same about any open source program (and their developers) dealing with encrypted information in any way?
What was the problem? Going in person? Answering questions in the same way that he would do to any other person? Giving a "forbidden hint" that is basically spam all over internet by now?
I don't care about crypto, but I do care about what this precedent implies.
[+] [-] flerchin|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] erie|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] insulfrable|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tptacek|4 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21666694
Doing the guidelines sentence exercise is sort of fun, in a nerd-snipey way, and is a way to understand a bit of how federal criminal law works for us non-lawyers.
[+] [-] dionidium|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jll29|4 years ago|reply
I met him at a summer school a couple of years ago, a remarkable character. He developed WikiScanner, which exposed the "beautification" of U.S. politician's Wikipedia pages, conducted from the White House and other government building's IP addresses, which was creative and in the public interest.
I'm surprised that giving a talk about blockchain and crypto-currencies would be considered that sensitive, as the whole Web is full of (open source) software and instructions how to use Ethereum, the ETH currency and related stuff.
> Griffith: I need to send 1 [REDACTED UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY] between North and South Korea. Other Guy: "Isn't that in violations of sanctions?" Griffith: It is.
Strange: The Virgil Griffith that I met was very smart, not sure if he would have had such an exchange in an unencrypted medium. He came across as an ultra-tech savvy prankster that had also hacked his high school's payment system (he did not say that because he was prevented under court order, so he just quipped "google me").
Here's an EdTech talks he gave 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymGl84RORLQ
Edit: I was wondering about that strange redaction of "[UNIT OF CRYPTOCURRENCY]". Clearly, as he is working on Ethereum, that one has the ETH currency, so likely it was that. Could the unredacted just say "1 ETH" (not a secret)? Then the transfer would have just been symbolic, not actually evading sanctions at scale. On the other hand if he was (allegedly) talking about 1 million ETH or BTC then it would smell more like a serious crime, assuming for a moment that exchange really happened. [BTW, 1 ETH = ~$3,000 versus 1 BTC = $40,000 at the moment, so the unit makes an order of magnitude difference.]
[+] [-] jl2718|4 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|4 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kache_|4 years ago|reply
pay your damn taxes! And don't defect sanctioned research to unfriendly enemy states!