[rrsmtz]

"We" didn't kill anybody, they died of a highly transmissible and novel disease for which there was no cure and no vaccine for over a year. There was no possible way that death could have been completely averted. Yes, there were policy choices that could have been made differently, that would have potentially slowed the spread. We implemented many, decided not to implement others, and had a difficult time enforcing the policies we did enact. But using the language of murder when talking this, and arguing using an implied base rate of zero, is hardly good faith.

[whimsicalism]

> There was no possible way that death could have been averted.

Respectfully, I disagree. If there was no possible way to avert it, how did China avert the vast majority of equivalent deaths?

The action/omission distinction is for judging who started a fight in a schoolyard, not for judging the actions of nation-states.

[afiori]

> If there was no possible way to avert it, how did China avert the vast majority of equivalent deaths?

By being ready to lock people in their homes and preventing them to even go buy groceries.

Are you proposing that western countries should/could do this?

We could also ban all sugar/sweeteners, alcohol, driving and sitting still for more than 6 hours a day; this would also save a lot of lives.

You can tune a Paperclip Optimizer to any single good metric, it does not mean that it is a good idea.

[QuikAccount]

I'm not taking a side on whether or not deaths could've been averted but I would be very skeptical of data coming out of China.

[lambdaba]

Well, the US does top the world in obesity and other comorbidities that increase frailty.

I'm pretty confident in stating that the average Chinese has overall better immune system function. On a related note I've just learned that one of the reasons they are more affected by the lockdowns is that the culture much prefers fresh food.

And no, there was no way most or any Western nations could have managed lockdowns of the sort that would have the necessary impact (of which I'm highly doubtful), for numerous reasons. The consequences of the so called "soft" approach on lockdowns are and are going to be massive anyway. And probably for naught.

[ejb999]

>>how did China avert the vast majority of equivalent deaths?

Do you really believe they 'averted 'the deaths? or is it more likely they hid the truth. I vote for the latter; they don't have a good track record.

[rrsmtz]

China and the USA are vastly different countries, in almost every single way that modern states can be different. You're comparing apples to oranges.