[russiano]

> do you feel that the Russians have started to detest "West" more?

It's certainly true for me and a few more people that I know. I used to be a cookie-cutter west-loving liberal, and now I'm slowly turning into a bitter vatnik. One of the things that made me change my mind (aside from diving deep into the history of the conflict after which many things started to make sense) is seeing how petty and ridiculous sanctions could be. Ironically, those people who embraced the western values have suffered the most, not only financially, but morally too, seeing how every day new sanctions pushing them towards the world's pariah status. For the average Putin voter nothing has changed really (except McD, that was harsh) - financial instututions work just fine and we are not going to suffer from food or fuel shortages

I still think Putin is a bloody dictator and that the war is a historical mistake and a catastrophe. However, seeing rabid mccartism and imposing collective guilt only makes me feel under siege. And the natural response is to stick to the leader, no matter how bad he is

I don't even want to start on the hypocrisy, this rant would go well beyond HN's allowed comment length

[CamperBob2]

I appreciate your perspective even though I disagree with it, and I'm sorry that you're being flagged and downvoted for posting what amounts to your opinion. Having said that, I'm curious: what does the Russian public education system teach you about Hitler and the events leading up to WWII?

Here in the US, we are taught that Hitler first threatened, then proceeded, to invade his country's neighbors. His rationale: we are protecting ethnic German enclaves, we are seeking to recover losses from Germany's previous disastrous approach to world politics (i.e., WWI), and we are entitled to secure more living space for the German people along with the economic self-determinism that it will bring.

I imagine that most Europeans are taught similar things.

So, is it surprising that many Westerners are disturbed by the parallels between Hitler's actions in the 1930s and Putin's actions today? It is easy to convince us that Putin has to be stopped at (almost) any cost, because we have seen -- or at least, we believe we have seen -- the consequences of letting a schoolyard bully dictate terms at the international level.

Certainly it feels awkward to lecture a Russian on such matters, since your country suffered by far the worst losses due to Nazi aggression and expansionism. Yet the lesson seems entirely lost on your countrymen. What do they teach you over there, exactly, that makes Putin's behavior seem acceptable?

[russiano]

Thanks

I am not sure how it's taught currently but the events between 1918 and 1941 haven't been drawing much attention traditionally. Even more so now that laws forbidding justification of fascism are getting harsher every year

I find it a little bit funny that after all these years of practicing in drawing comparisons with Hitler, people try really hard at not noticing Azov. Answering your last question, russian propaganda is focusing on Azov way too much, trying to make an impression that they are not a few thousand strong unit, but represent most of Ukraine's military and we don't talk to nazi. Any dissent is steamrolled

[throwaway787544]

> However, seeing rabid mccartism and imposing collective guilt only makes me feel under siege.

Seeing as that is the whole point of the sanctions, I'd say it's working. The point is to piss off regular Russians enough that at some point they might decide to overthrow their dictator.

[russiano]

Oh no, quite the opposite actually - the most pissed off demographics is people like me, faint-hearted internet liberals. A coup is extremely unlikely, like less likely than an actual nuclear war

Another funny fact that I wanted to tell about is that a couple of years ago Google/Apple helped to derail opposition effort to consolidate and push people not from the ruling party to parlament. They banned apps offering vital information on voting patters. Now they are on the high moral horse, along with FB

[toomuchtodo]

It seems very unlikely at this point Putin will be overthrown. Sanctions will need to do to Russia’s economy what Russia is doing to Ukraine’s cities, reducing them to rubble. You have to salt their economic earth to prevent this from occurring again after Putin dies, is couped, etc (allow for an authoritarian who will likely fill the power vacuum, without any military power).

[orochi235]

What's the alternative, though? The leader of your country is terrorizing Europe in ways not seen in almost 80 years. We all know all-out war between nuclear states is not an option, so what should Western nations do? Just sit back and ignore the indiscriminate war crimes?

It's ironic to me, given how clearly Putin's worldview presumes that power is all matters, how quick Russia has been to cry foul over sanctions. If you want to live in a world where the one with the biggest stick gets to do whatever he wants to everybody else, you should probably at least make sure you have a big stick first.

I'm sorry that your local McDonald's closed, and I do have some sympathy for the Russian people, most of whom probably wanted nothing to do with this war. I have an enormous amount of sympathy for those brave enough to speak up in the face of frankly terrifying state oppression. But honestly, after enabling that maniac for 22 years, I do think Russian citizens bear a little bit of responsibility for this senseless war (not to mention all the other ones!). And if you think that's unfair, well, how about what's happening to the citizens of Ukraine? Is that fair?

It's in everyone's interest that we all learn to get along. Nobody wants the Russian people to suffer for no reason. I hope you guys eventually figure out how to stand up an honest and functioning democracy, for your sake as well as everyone else's. But we can't condone this senseless brutality, and if that makes you see us as your enemy, that's unfortunate, but hopefully temporary.

[russiano]

> It's ironic to me, given how clearly Putin's worldview presumes that power is all matters, how quick Russia has been to cry foul over sanctions.

Unfortunately this is exactly how the world works. Decades of unipolar world order may have led to the wrong impression though

I really liked the recent Noam Chomsky's interview on the subject of geting along. It's called How To Prevent World War III

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/04/noam-chomsky-on-how-t...

[radu_floricica]

As an outsider, of course I dislike the average Russian and hold him at least somewhat responsible, for two reasons: 1. his collective historical actions led to Russia being led by a mafia regime and 2. his taxes directly fund the war.

> aside from diving deep into the history of the conflict after which many things started to make sense

I'm very curious about that... would you mind sharing?

[watersb]

"Dislike the average Russian"

I find that quite surprising, actually. I absolutely don't dislike a Russian I don't know. How could I?

Maybe I don't understand this correctly. I'd like to know more about this feeling.

I am upset by the slaughter with impunity that I see of Ukraine, guilty of nothing more than being in the way. (I realize this may sound hypocritical, coming from an American, but we can talk about that.)

[russiano]

1. How do you reconcile the two thoughts that, at the same time, it's a mafia regime and that people somehow elected them and therefore are responsible?

2. Do you also hold Germans responsible for funding the war? They pay for gas a lot and their contribution is indispensable

>I'm very curious about that... would you mind sharing?

Not sure I am able to direct you to one comprehensive place, but in short, this is a war with NATO that has been brewing for decades but most people thought it'd never happen. As a bonus, I'd recommend checking this thread https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592

[FooBarBizBazz]

> his taxes directly fund the war.

You could say the same thing about Germans, and all the gas they burn.