So, former WGU student here, though I hadn't completed my degree.
Many WGU students HATE these types of articles, because they undermine the legitimacy of WGU.
WGU was not designed for traditional students, it was 100% designed for working professionals, where WGU will only admit you with a reasonable amount of experience in your field.
WGU is regionally accredited, not nationally, and it's a non-profit. So it cannot be compared to University of Phoenix, ITT Tech, DeVry, etc.
It was founded by a group of governors out west, hence the name. They realized that there were many working adults who possessed a great depth of knowledge, from long working in their fields, yet they had no paper credentials to show for that knowledge.
Their model is competency-based, so you must demonstrate you posses knowledge in any given domain. If you can prove you do then you can test out right away, if you fail to then they offer a variety of resources to allow you to get up to par. In many cases classes are tied to obtaining industry certifications.
It's not for everyone, but it is a far cry from a "degree mill." Does it really matter if a person that has knowledge got it from sitting in a seat, paying ungodly amounts of tuition, or if they got it from life experience? As long as a bar is set, and you can meet it, then that should be what really matters.
Just my personal experience, from having attended the university. Unfortunately life sidetracked my completion, but I hope to return one day soon, and complete my program.
I didn't read the article that way (although it's clear many posters did).
The author learned a lot independently. There's a question of what to do with that knowledge. A system like WGU does a few things:
1) Identify gaps and help fill them. Independent learners almost always develop gaps. One benefits from bringing that knowledge to a uniform "undergrad CS degree" level
2) Provide a certification once that's done.
A traditional university degree takes 4 years, costs $200k, and has mixed quality. Being able to do 75% of that independently, and having an institution gap-fill for a few grand? That sounds awesome.
For brand recognition, I don't see WGU as any better or worse than the 4500+ other random universities and colleges in the US. It doesn't match the top few hundred, but that's okay. Most don't.
I'm not sure who would compare it to Phoenix, ITT Tech, DeVry, or other scams like that.
I'd much more place WGU as more a competitor to ASU. ASU is awesome, and is really trying to pioneer models of innovative, quality, low-cost, scalable education.
I hope one of them succeeds.
By the way, yourself being a former WGU student, would you recommend WGU to a super-gifted kid? E.g. having someone start college there at e.g. age 13? That, plus CMU OMSCS, seems like something they could finish by age 17. Socially, I'm not sure they'd do well starting traditional college early. Academically, middle / high school seems like a waste of time.
For what it’s worth, many people reached out to me after reading the article to thank me for introducing them to the idea that they could earn their missing degree in less than 4 years and/or without student debt. Many of them are self-taught developers with decades of experience that can’t move up the corporate ladder, work abroad, or pursue graduate studies because they lack this important piece of paper.
> WGU is regionally accredited, not nationally, and it's a non-profit. So it cannot be compared to University of Phoenix, ITT Tech, DeVry, etc.
Just want to point out for those that may not know, 85% of universities in the U.S. are regionally accredited [1]. Regional accreditation, which WGU has, is the most prestigious and widely-recognized [1]. Some folks may mistake that nationally is "better", but, as you'll see from the link below, that simply is not the case.
> Many WGU students HATE these types of articles, because they undermine the legitimacy of WGU.
What is "these types of articles"? How does this one "undermine the legitimacy of WGU"? Even a cursory skim-through of the article would show that the author worked hard and learned all of the material that they then passed exams on at WGU. They don't make it out to be a "degree mill" in any way whatsoever.
> Many WGU students HATE these types of articles, because they undermine the legitimacy of WGU.
> Their model is competency-based, so you must demonstrate you posses knowledge in any given domain.
The guy took courses at college, online, and worked in the field for over a decade before speedrunning WGU. It seems to me he’s the exact model of “demonstrating competence” that you mention - I don’t see how that makes WGU out to be a degree mill.
This sounds like a surprisingly good idea, something I hope we see more of (but of course I'll remain pessimistic).
What's crazy to me is that it wasn't always the case that you had to go through the formal process of school to achieve credentialing. If you were truly exceptional, and could prove that, you could then get the required credential.
For example it used to be the case that you didn't need to go to law school to take the bar exam. You still don't in a few US states. Law school might make it a million times easier to learn the law and pass, but if you already know it why not go straight to the test?
Another, admittedly extreme, case was Ludwig Wittgenstein getting his PhD from Trinity College. He had already written the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus on his own, then basically showed up and presented it as his dissertation, defended it, mocked his friend Bertrand Russel during defense and got the PhD.
What's crazy to me is that if Wittgenstein was alive today he would not be able to achieve this anywhere. There are plenty of people out there who have done ground breaking work in their field, but because of the orthodoxy today, have zero chance of getting a PhD without going through the entire process.
There's such a huge difference between schools saying "you technically don't need us to get the credential, but it's going to be much, much harder to go it your own way" than "it doesn't matter what you do, if you don't sit here and play by our rules you will never be recognized".
This is where it's hard not to get pretty cynical about the state of higher education today.
Hey, does this exist for video game animation? I was extremely disappointed with an online school I recently went to for video game animation (the classes were way too spread apart and while the modeling sections were interesting, I really just need to work on animation for the models I purchased).
I know this is tangentially related, but this was so demoralizing I kind of gave up on game dev altogether.
that's a big problem in software TBF. The bar is all over which ways and changes dramatically based on the domain. If we can't agree on a bar, there's not much point in the endless arguments that result while pointing to our own interpretations
> Does it really matter if a person that has knowledge got it from sitting in a seat, paying ungodly amounts of tuition, or if they got it from life experience?
well, the real life experience is much more preferable. But the general model of professional industries unfortunately require sitting in a seat for years and getting a piece of paper before resetting 80% of what you learned with imperfect realities.
I'm glad there is an option like this for a developer thrown out of the market without a degree to fast track their way to that piece of paper, but it's a shame that piece of paper is held in such high regards
So the key difference you’re describing between this and a degree mill is that you’re expected to already possess the knowledge. And maybe organize it a little bit or fill in the blanks. As opposed to cramming it, or blowing through it too fast for it to amount to anything. This makes sense. I can imagine traditional universities offering this sort of thing everywhere.
I have to ask: what mechanisms are in place to thwart cheating? Specifically, paying for someone to take all those tests in your stead. Though it's possible to cheat at traditional universities in individual courses, it becomes increasingly hard over the duration demanded for attendance even on an accelerated schedule for lots of small reasons that add up.
> On my first day, I completed 4 courses in the span of 4 hours. At a traditional school, it would have taken 4 months. It made me realize…I had underestimated how much knowledge I had gained from previous schools, jobs, projects, books, papers, and talks.
This passage underscores how, for this guy and whoever he was selling himself to, a CS degree was just a credential. He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees.
> An audit by the Department of Education's Office of Inspector General, released on September 21, 2017, "concluded that Western Governors University did not comply with the institutional eligibility requirement that limits the percentage of regular students who may enroll in correspondence courses" and that "at least 69 of the 102 courses were not designed to offer regular and substantive interaction with an instructor and, therefore, did not meet the regulatory definition of distance education."
They later kept their federal loan eligibility but it sounds like it might have been a case where they skated by due to a lack of clear guidance.
Lack of clear guidance is right. The existing outdated laws or regulations just didn’t make sense for their business model or for the Internet age. WGU is regionally accredited in all regions. Not to say it’s good-quality education; it’s not. But frankly most colleges aren’t and I think it meets the same (low) bar that most colleges do—and does better for job-readiness and cost. I have most of a degree from it. I’m still not sure I’d recommend it to others though. I’m not even 100% sure I’ll finish!—but I’m leaning toward finishing to make it easier to get into OMSCS or similar. It’s not what got me my job and career. But if you don’t already have a degree (I did, psychology) it’s probably worth it if you think checking the box can help your career or even just help you hunt for your first paid job.
I just put in a couple hours of studying @ WGU for Discrete Math II last night, and I'm happy that the school exists.
I spent months trying to get my brick-and-mortar to allow me to complete my B.S. remotely; I had dropped out after junior year for startup reasons.
Long story short, the idea that an adult working full time might want to complete their degree without dropping $65k wasn't acceptable (of course COVID forced the university remote.)
Then my partner began a WGU Master's program and told me about it.
Although I wasn't able to transfer in most of my courses (older than 5 years), I was able to transfer a chunk of gen-eds. Now I'm slowly but surely working through the degree, diving much deeper into math topics than I ever did before.
I have the time to actually understand things instead of passing by the skin of my teeth. I also have the choice to skip a topic entirely if I know its contents.
It can be a slog, and there are times where it appears a gargantuan task. But I'm learning, and the challenge of doing it while working full time gives me great confidence.
Make sure you match with an excellent mentor to cheer you on while holding you accountable.
Now, some things to consider:
* I value the friends and shared experience I made @ brick-and-mortar university. This doesn't replicate that at all.
* Prices, although relatively low, have risen.
* Self-motivation is critical.
* No detailed feedback on projects.
I appreciate it for what it is: a self-motivated, self-paced escape hatch for those who want to earn a degree, where your experience is valued, and your bank account is respected.
OP is a class act. I reached out to him the first time he posted this and he was really helpful with answering my questions. I applied then and am now one class away from finishing my Masters in Cybersecurity. I have 20 years experience in the field and am in a stable, well paying position that I don't plan to leave. This was a vanity degree for me but I also wanted to learn something in the process. So I took my time an emersed myself in the course material even though I could have probably tested out of most courses within a few days. Like any school, WGU will allow you to get what you want out of it. You want a checkmark? WGU will allow you to can get that cheaper than anywhere else. You want to really learn and get credit for it? Then take your time and you wont be disappointed. Are you done learning after your degree? Nope, but as a lifelong learner my experience at WGU was great and am glad I went for it.
When I was in undergrad (20ish years ago) it was absolutely possible for a motivated student to graduate at a highly accelerated rate. I know someone who had approximately 5 semesters worth of classes done at the end of his freshman year, having taken about 40 credits worth of classes each semester (12 credits was considered "full time" and you needed to average slightly more than that per semester to graduate in 4 years in most degrees).
He was able to do this because:
1. Only foreign language classes and lab sciences had class-participation requirements
2. All classes published a syllabus so where possible he could start the major projects early
3. Most of the lower-division classes were a joke to a smart and motivated person anyways.
4. He convinced an academic advisor to sign off on it (this was arguably the hardest part).
At a lot of schools, you can take CLEP tests to get out of (especially) 100 and 200 level courses. Take the test, pay a (somewhat lower) rate for the credit without taking the actual class, and it's done.
If you're capable of completing 5 semesters worth in 2 semesters, you're probably capable of passing several of those tests with only a little studying over a Summer.
Impressive! How many credits did a "normal" class (like linear algebra or calculus I) have? Or how many classes did he have to take to get 40 credits in one semester?
The exam taking phase must have been hell :P
The best I once did was only 48 credits (with the baseline for full-time study being 30 per semester, "normal" class giving 6 credits, european university so only a 3 year bachelors degree) and I was very tired after that semester :D
I just graduated from WGU 2 days ago, after almost 20 years in the industry. I didn't rush through it was quickly - I finished in just under a year. I studied finance my first time around in college and have tried to do a CS degree a few times since, but juggling a full-time job and now a family makes that tough. The flexibility the WGU program offered was honestly more important than the raw speed at which I could go through it.
Some of it was stuff I knew really well and only spent an hour or two on, some of it was filler (I now have ITIL v4 and Project+ certifications that were annoying to get and mostly useless?), and some of it was new and interesting (Discrete Math, Computer Architecture, etc..). Overall, it didn't feel like markedly different curriculum from the in-person courses I took at other schools.
Aside from a few terrible classes (the AI course is just a horrendous waste of time), most of them were decent and I felt like I learned something from them. The overall curriculum is a little odd and probably not ideal for someone who has little programming experience. For example, the very first "scripting and programming" course uses C++ to build a simple command-line application, but then you never do anything with C++ again. What is the point of that? I understand how C++ can be useful in a learning context, but I don't think a brief introduction to it really does any good. Two of the biggest courses are big JavaFX projects, which ughh.. fine, but I think there are probably more useful things to teach.
I understand that a CS degree is more about theory than getting job-related skills, but a few of the decisions made serve neither very well. So if I had one knock on the program, it is that someone who comes in with little programming experience is probably going to come out of it without having written much code that resembles what they'd be doing in a job.
Overall, it was a really good experience and it feels good to finally finish up after all these years. I am currently applying for the Georgia Tech OMSCS program, which is a common route for WGU graduates. That one is fairly rigorous and cannot be sped through, so looking at several more years for that, but at the end of it all, a BS + MS in Computer Science in around 5 years and under $20k total seems like a decent result?
What I would like to have is a topic approach one. It should be fully online with facilities for student communication such as Discord and online assignment/project submission.
One example: let's say I want to learn OS. The course chain will look like this: Programming class, Comp arch using C and assembly, Data structure, and then straight into OS.
In modern universities you can apply as independent students but the process is often a bit tedious. Also you have to go through a lot of red tapes just to remove some pre-requisite, e.g. as a Math student I don't need Discrete math, and as a Data Engineer I don't need the basic programming class at least, but in reality it's really difficult to get these done easily, if at all.
Of course I can just go to say Berkeley and download their course materials and learn for free. I figured I'm not smart/persistent enough to go through it on my own, so paying some $$ to get a proper learning platform is a better option. Really wish universities such as MIT or Berkeley has such options but I know it's too much for them. Once they open the gate there will be too large a demand to handle.
I went to WGU for my BSIT. I didn't learn much there, but the degree and certifications helped my job prospects. Spent about $10,000 going for 3 semesters (already had my AS from a community college), walked out with 13 certifications and a boost in pay from being headhunted within weeks.
I've had another job since then and am earning more still. I would say at least for IT degrees WGU is worth it. It gives you the sheet of paper HR needs to let you in through the door for cheap, plus a bunch of certs that helps your resume stand out. Not a bad deal if you have any autodidactive capability.
WGU BS / MS Graduate here: I attended 3 other "traditional, B&M" Uni's in years past (~60 credits). I also attended a couple Community Colleges (16 credits).
I created a career in IT by getting a job (2000) and working full time over the years. I got certifications on my own that I transferred in for credit with WGU.
I have now been teaching full time in an IT program at a community college for 2 years and have also developed and manage 2 different MS level online classes for a traditional B&M university you have definitely heard of.
I can tell you, unequivocally, that what I had to do to complete my degrees with WGU was more rigorous than what I am requiring my students to do now (not my choice ... chain of command). The grading was harder at WGU than what I am permitted to do now with my students in the CC and B&M MS classes. I have now been on each side of the "WGU is not legit" argument. Anyone who thinks this is very wrong. No, it's not Stanford or MIT, it's not supposed to be ... though I'm sure grade inflation and special treatment happens at those places. There is no special treatment or grade inflation at WGU. You take a cert exam, take a test, or submit a paper to an unknown grader. You either pass or you don't. Simple as that. If you know your stuff, move on. If you don't ... learn it to move forward. It's meritocracy at its best. That is NOT the traditional University way.
I would included the OP in this ... he states in the end of his blog post that "The program is not the most rigorous." How does he know this having not attended other university recently? How does he know this not having developed or taught classes at other universities or colleges. He's right about the clear value that can be attained from combining knowledge, experience and work ethic to a WGU degree. He's wrong about the rigor.
IMO: WGU is not the place to LEARN, it's the place you PROVE WHAT YOU KNOW.
This article was interesting to me because it helped me learn about WGU. I dropped out of college just one semester prior to graduating (and had a 3.7gpa at the time). I've had nearly two decades of experience in industry, and it'd be great to be able to get a degree at this point in my life just to get the credential to match my work experience. WGU seems like a really reasonable program for someone in my situation, compared to taking time off from work to go back to school or hoping I get famous enough someday to get an honorary degree.
I thought about going to WGU instead of a community college/transferring to a private/state school to earn my bachelors, but after starting to apply to WGU it literally seemed like a diploma mil to me. There would be WGU recruiters constantly calling me etc. and overall didn't seem legit to me. So, I decided to go to school for 4-6 years instead.
I wonder if places like RenTech would hire someone with a degree from rentech. I think that the DoD hires folks with degrees from UoP, so I'm not surprised they would. I saw a few folks on Linkedin work at Amazon with degrees from WGU and on their website they list that a few students got accepted to grad programs to Harvard etc. [1].
https://www.uopeople.edu/ WGU reminds me of the uopeople which is in the process of earning regional accreditation.
It really isn't, they hold regional accreditation which, while debatable in total, is much harder to get than national accreditation, because the audit is considered to be much more strict.
What WGU is though, is mostly self guided learning, you don't have a traditional professor, you have advisors and pooled resources and group study to drive learning and for asking questions. It does work, if you're a very motivated person and learn well without professor / teacher guidance like you would get at a traditional state school.
Is it perfect? No, its definitely not, but its not a diploma mill, and I'd argue its of higher quality than University Of Phoenix and the like.
It's not even structured as a for-profit enterprise.
WGU filled the gap as a working professional. They're extremely affordable too. Would I advise someone who say, is just graduating high school and can get into a state school or good college with scholarships to pivot over to WGU? No, I wouldn't, but they wouldn't benefit from WGU the same way either at that stage of life IMO.
> I think that the DoD hires folks with degrees from UoP
Most federal government jobs that require a degree only require one from an accredited university.
The quality of the degree is not relevant for any but the most sought after positions (e.g., certain state department jobs, federal judge clerkships, etc.).
I think some military folks and some GS folks who want to move up to higher jobs but are prevented by the degree requirement often go to places like WGU. Same holds for masters and doctorate degrees.
I’m a student of WGU, and tried UoP, not the same whatsoever. UoP was garbage. Flagged me for fraud on my first test.
WGU is what it says it is. Online school with no breaks designed for low friction at the cost of interaction.
I am familiar with UoP too, but I got the impression UoP was that it was very much amateur in it's operation. A bunch of idealistic people trying to make education have zero cost barrier to entry. It's simply not feasible to run a college like that at this time. WGU and UoP can not rightfully be put in the same basket.
I have a background in academia and extensive experience interviewing for FAANG, particularly at the entry level. For me this article highlights the futility of current higher education institutions.
From our experience a degree is a mild indicator of performance when hiring at entry levels. We get some great candidates with no degree, and many poor candidates with degrees. Above entry level, the correlation pretty much disappear. I'm really curios what kind of difficulties OP was facing for not having a title.
I don't think we have completely removed a title from our job posting requirements, but it usually uses one of those silly conversions (CS degree or x years of experience).
That makes me wonder, what value would Universities provide if a degree wasn't a signifier anymore? what if all tech companies hired purely based on interview performance and ignored titles even for filtering? I imagine a future where all the knowledge and material is open and free on the internet, and University staff acts more as coaches and mentors, helping people who needs it in a 1-1 fashion. One can dream.
I share the dream, but I season it with a splash of optimism.
The internet is a revolution in information availability and communications capability. People can, right now, learn anything they want, anything at all, for free, all they need is interest, dedication and to prioritize setting aside time for it. The business world still largely operates on the old paradigm though: signaling capability through credentials. But as companies find time and time again that the two don't always (or even usually) correlate, they're creating interesting interview processes to assess capabilities. The credential is largely a legacy requirement in environments like this.
The pace of this change is accelerating. I think over the coming decades you're going to see less importance placed on credentials in technical fields, and people will begin to just learn what they're interested in, what can get them ahead in life, on their own time, and try to work in those fields on their merit and capability. I do believe that one day people won't need credentials, they'll only need to prove themselves. This is easier for honest people but harder for grifters and phonies.
Of course, there are jobs for which mindless obedience, willingness to waste hours of your life and capacity to eat shit are defining characteristics for success. Hopefully those jobs go away, but as long as they exist, they'll have senseless requirements like credentials that people will go through the rigmarole to get. Jobs built out of red tape will have red tape.
Much like view on higher education haven't changed greatly, views on job descriptions haven't either.
People will not apply for a job because it wants 10 years of experience for an entry-level job, or some other such nonsense. I have found many employers list a dream sheet, but realistically they are open to accepting candidates with less qualifications, especially when they end up getting very few applicants (due to the hefty qualifications they asked for).
A big part of education is spacing and repetition so completing a full course quickly before starting the next one doesn't sound like it's very good for learning even if it might speed up the degree.
I wonder what specific opportunities he felt he was missing out on. I've been working in software for 17 years without a degree and have never noticed the lack of a degree stopping me from anything. I've never had it come up during interviews.
As someone already mentioned here, there may be some immigration-related requirements that can be satisfied by this degree? E.g. when immigrating into US, the lawyers had to check for degree equivalency between my 3-year bachelor's degree to check if I satisfy H-1B visa requirements (IIRC the answer was "yes" when they also included the first year of the master's program that I have already completed).
Thanks for sharing that, as I've been wondering if I would ever run into that (currently at about four YOE as a SWE) without a degree. I find it interesting that there are people who already have a degree in something but still feel bad they don't have a CS degree. I don't have a degree in anything!
I see a good number of commenters mention that they also went through the same program/went through something similar.
I was wondering if getting the degree translated into any professional benefits? The conventional wisdom is that degrees don't matter, but the author in this blog post says otherwise and they unfortunately have not written a follow-up. I personally have a degree, so don't have perspective.
When it really comes down to it: you applying at the same time, with a degree, against a person without a degree, means you're more likely to get the job.
In government you often get higher pay for having a degree, so it ends up being a box that must be checked if you want to advance further up the pay scales.
Interesting to see such polarizing opinions on education in the comments. The value of education is a mix of learning, credentials, and socialization - and the experience is different for each student. WGU makes a lot of sense for working professionals.
Data point of one: WGU's credit transfer appraisers are comically incompetent
I wanted to complete a CS degree there, since I already have a lot of credits from elsewhere, which I officially transferred to WGU. But then they told me I can't be in CS because I don't have pre-Calculus completed. WAIT WHAT? Right there on my transcript, there are completed 'MATH 460 Math Modeling' and '696 Applied Math Project' and 'MATH 394 Probability and Statistics', which all obviously cover pre-Calc, but no - the appraisers think I might not be able to handle Calculus I so they won't let me go to CS (but I'm welcome to do some IT course).
[+] [-] AviationAtom|3 years ago|reply
Many WGU students HATE these types of articles, because they undermine the legitimacy of WGU.
WGU was not designed for traditional students, it was 100% designed for working professionals, where WGU will only admit you with a reasonable amount of experience in your field.
WGU is regionally accredited, not nationally, and it's a non-profit. So it cannot be compared to University of Phoenix, ITT Tech, DeVry, etc.
It was founded by a group of governors out west, hence the name. They realized that there were many working adults who possessed a great depth of knowledge, from long working in their fields, yet they had no paper credentials to show for that knowledge.
Their model is competency-based, so you must demonstrate you posses knowledge in any given domain. If you can prove you do then you can test out right away, if you fail to then they offer a variety of resources to allow you to get up to par. In many cases classes are tied to obtaining industry certifications.
It's not for everyone, but it is a far cry from a "degree mill." Does it really matter if a person that has knowledge got it from sitting in a seat, paying ungodly amounts of tuition, or if they got it from life experience? As long as a bar is set, and you can meet it, then that should be what really matters.
Just my personal experience, from having attended the university. Unfortunately life sidetracked my completion, but I hope to return one day soon, and complete my program.
[+] [-] blagie|3 years ago|reply
The author learned a lot independently. There's a question of what to do with that knowledge. A system like WGU does a few things:
1) Identify gaps and help fill them. Independent learners almost always develop gaps. One benefits from bringing that knowledge to a uniform "undergrad CS degree" level
2) Provide a certification once that's done.
A traditional university degree takes 4 years, costs $200k, and has mixed quality. Being able to do 75% of that independently, and having an institution gap-fill for a few grand? That sounds awesome.
For brand recognition, I don't see WGU as any better or worse than the 4500+ other random universities and colleges in the US. It doesn't match the top few hundred, but that's okay. Most don't.
I'm not sure who would compare it to Phoenix, ITT Tech, DeVry, or other scams like that.
I'd much more place WGU as more a competitor to ASU. ASU is awesome, and is really trying to pioneer models of innovative, quality, low-cost, scalable education.
I hope one of them succeeds.
By the way, yourself being a former WGU student, would you recommend WGU to a super-gifted kid? E.g. having someone start college there at e.g. age 13? That, plus CMU OMSCS, seems like something they could finish by age 17. Socially, I'm not sure they'd do well starting traditional college early. Academically, middle / high school seems like a waste of time.
[+] [-] miguelrochefort|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gzer0|3 years ago|reply
Just want to point out for those that may not know, 85% of universities in the U.S. are regionally accredited [1]. Regional accreditation, which WGU has, is the most prestigious and widely-recognized [1]. Some folks may mistake that nationally is "better", but, as you'll see from the link below, that simply is not the case.
[1] https://www.online.drexel.edu/news/national-vs-regional-accr...
[+] [-] throw10920|3 years ago|reply
What is "these types of articles"? How does this one "undermine the legitimacy of WGU"? Even a cursory skim-through of the article would show that the author worked hard and learned all of the material that they then passed exams on at WGU. They don't make it out to be a "degree mill" in any way whatsoever.
[+] [-] arkades|3 years ago|reply
> Their model is competency-based, so you must demonstrate you posses knowledge in any given domain.
The guy took courses at college, online, and worked in the field for over a decade before speedrunning WGU. It seems to me he’s the exact model of “demonstrating competence” that you mention - I don’t see how that makes WGU out to be a degree mill.
[+] [-] PheonixPharts|3 years ago|reply
What's crazy to me is that it wasn't always the case that you had to go through the formal process of school to achieve credentialing. If you were truly exceptional, and could prove that, you could then get the required credential.
For example it used to be the case that you didn't need to go to law school to take the bar exam. You still don't in a few US states. Law school might make it a million times easier to learn the law and pass, but if you already know it why not go straight to the test?
Another, admittedly extreme, case was Ludwig Wittgenstein getting his PhD from Trinity College. He had already written the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus on his own, then basically showed up and presented it as his dissertation, defended it, mocked his friend Bertrand Russel during defense and got the PhD.
What's crazy to me is that if Wittgenstein was alive today he would not be able to achieve this anywhere. There are plenty of people out there who have done ground breaking work in their field, but because of the orthodoxy today, have zero chance of getting a PhD without going through the entire process.
There's such a huge difference between schools saying "you technically don't need us to get the credential, but it's going to be much, much harder to go it your own way" than "it doesn't matter what you do, if you don't sit here and play by our rules you will never be recognized".
This is where it's hard not to get pretty cynical about the state of higher education today.
[+] [-] dimgl|3 years ago|reply
I know this is tangentially related, but this was so demoralizing I kind of gave up on game dev altogether.
[+] [-] johnnyanmac|3 years ago|reply
that's a big problem in software TBF. The bar is all over which ways and changes dramatically based on the domain. If we can't agree on a bar, there's not much point in the endless arguments that result while pointing to our own interpretations
> Does it really matter if a person that has knowledge got it from sitting in a seat, paying ungodly amounts of tuition, or if they got it from life experience?
well, the real life experience is much more preferable. But the general model of professional industries unfortunately require sitting in a seat for years and getting a piece of paper before resetting 80% of what you learned with imperfect realities.
I'm glad there is an option like this for a developer thrown out of the market without a degree to fast track their way to that piece of paper, but it's a shame that piece of paper is held in such high regards
[+] [-] andi999|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scyzoryk_xyz|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lr4444lr|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hammock|3 years ago|reply
This passage underscores how, for this guy and whoever he was selling himself to, a CS degree was just a credential. He did not have much intention of actually learning anything. That’s (I believe) fundamentally different than most people who seek college degrees.
[+] [-] rtkwe|3 years ago|reply
> An audit by the Department of Education's Office of Inspector General, released on September 21, 2017, "concluded that Western Governors University did not comply with the institutional eligibility requirement that limits the percentage of regular students who may enroll in correspondence courses" and that "at least 69 of the 102 courses were not designed to offer regular and substantive interaction with an instructor and, therefore, did not meet the regulatory definition of distance education."
They later kept their federal loan eligibility but it sounds like it might have been a case where they skated by due to a lack of clear guidance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Governors_University
[+] [-] adamisom|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _caw|3 years ago|reply
I spent months trying to get my brick-and-mortar to allow me to complete my B.S. remotely; I had dropped out after junior year for startup reasons.
Long story short, the idea that an adult working full time might want to complete their degree without dropping $65k wasn't acceptable (of course COVID forced the university remote.)
Then my partner began a WGU Master's program and told me about it.
Although I wasn't able to transfer in most of my courses (older than 5 years), I was able to transfer a chunk of gen-eds. Now I'm slowly but surely working through the degree, diving much deeper into math topics than I ever did before.
I have the time to actually understand things instead of passing by the skin of my teeth. I also have the choice to skip a topic entirely if I know its contents.
It can be a slog, and there are times where it appears a gargantuan task. But I'm learning, and the challenge of doing it while working full time gives me great confidence.
Make sure you match with an excellent mentor to cheer you on while holding you accountable.
Now, some things to consider:
* I value the friends and shared experience I made @ brick-and-mortar university. This doesn't replicate that at all.
* Prices, although relatively low, have risen.
* Self-motivation is critical.
* No detailed feedback on projects.
I appreciate it for what it is: a self-motivated, self-paced escape hatch for those who want to earn a degree, where your experience is valued, and your bank account is respected.
[+] [-] xriddle|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aidenn0|3 years ago|reply
He was able to do this because:
1. Only foreign language classes and lab sciences had class-participation requirements
2. All classes published a syllabus so where possible he could start the major projects early
3. Most of the lower-division classes were a joke to a smart and motivated person anyways.
4. He convinced an academic advisor to sign off on it (this was arguably the hardest part).
[+] [-] brimble|3 years ago|reply
If you're capable of completing 5 semesters worth in 2 semesters, you're probably capable of passing several of those tests with only a little studying over a Summer.
[+] [-] schroeding|3 years ago|reply
The best I once did was only 48 credits (with the baseline for full-time study being 30 per semester, "normal" class giving 6 credits, european university so only a 3 year bachelors degree) and I was very tired after that semester :D
[+] [-] suresk|3 years ago|reply
Some of it was stuff I knew really well and only spent an hour or two on, some of it was filler (I now have ITIL v4 and Project+ certifications that were annoying to get and mostly useless?), and some of it was new and interesting (Discrete Math, Computer Architecture, etc..). Overall, it didn't feel like markedly different curriculum from the in-person courses I took at other schools.
Aside from a few terrible classes (the AI course is just a horrendous waste of time), most of them were decent and I felt like I learned something from them. The overall curriculum is a little odd and probably not ideal for someone who has little programming experience. For example, the very first "scripting and programming" course uses C++ to build a simple command-line application, but then you never do anything with C++ again. What is the point of that? I understand how C++ can be useful in a learning context, but I don't think a brief introduction to it really does any good. Two of the biggest courses are big JavaFX projects, which ughh.. fine, but I think there are probably more useful things to teach.
I understand that a CS degree is more about theory than getting job-related skills, but a few of the decisions made serve neither very well. So if I had one knock on the program, it is that someone who comes in with little programming experience is probably going to come out of it without having written much code that resembles what they'd be doing in a job.
Overall, it was a really good experience and it feels good to finally finish up after all these years. I am currently applying for the Georgia Tech OMSCS program, which is a common route for WGU graduates. That one is fairly rigorous and cannot be sped through, so looking at several more years for that, but at the end of it all, a BS + MS in Computer Science in around 5 years and under $20k total seems like a decent result?
[+] [-] triyambakam|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] markus_zhang|3 years ago|reply
What I would like to have is a topic approach one. It should be fully online with facilities for student communication such as Discord and online assignment/project submission.
One example: let's say I want to learn OS. The course chain will look like this: Programming class, Comp arch using C and assembly, Data structure, and then straight into OS.
In modern universities you can apply as independent students but the process is often a bit tedious. Also you have to go through a lot of red tapes just to remove some pre-requisite, e.g. as a Math student I don't need Discrete math, and as a Data Engineer I don't need the basic programming class at least, but in reality it's really difficult to get these done easily, if at all.
Of course I can just go to say Berkeley and download their course materials and learn for free. I figured I'm not smart/persistent enough to go through it on my own, so paying some $$ to get a proper learning platform is a better option. Really wish universities such as MIT or Berkeley has such options but I know it's too much for them. Once they open the gate there will be too large a demand to handle.
[+] [-] BizarroLand|3 years ago|reply
I've had another job since then and am earning more still. I would say at least for IT degrees WGU is worth it. It gives you the sheet of paper HR needs to let you in through the door for cheap, plus a bunch of certs that helps your resume stand out. Not a bad deal if you have any autodidactive capability.
[+] [-] 50208|3 years ago|reply
I created a career in IT by getting a job (2000) and working full time over the years. I got certifications on my own that I transferred in for credit with WGU.
I have now been teaching full time in an IT program at a community college for 2 years and have also developed and manage 2 different MS level online classes for a traditional B&M university you have definitely heard of.
I can tell you, unequivocally, that what I had to do to complete my degrees with WGU was more rigorous than what I am requiring my students to do now (not my choice ... chain of command). The grading was harder at WGU than what I am permitted to do now with my students in the CC and B&M MS classes. I have now been on each side of the "WGU is not legit" argument. Anyone who thinks this is very wrong. No, it's not Stanford or MIT, it's not supposed to be ... though I'm sure grade inflation and special treatment happens at those places. There is no special treatment or grade inflation at WGU. You take a cert exam, take a test, or submit a paper to an unknown grader. You either pass or you don't. Simple as that. If you know your stuff, move on. If you don't ... learn it to move forward. It's meritocracy at its best. That is NOT the traditional University way.
I would included the OP in this ... he states in the end of his blog post that "The program is not the most rigorous." How does he know this having not attended other university recently? How does he know this not having developed or taught classes at other universities or colleges. He's right about the clear value that can be attained from combining knowledge, experience and work ethic to a WGU degree. He's wrong about the rigor.
IMO: WGU is not the place to LEARN, it's the place you PROVE WHAT YOU KNOW.
[+] [-] tristor|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] triyambakam|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|3 years ago|reply
I prepared for a decade to graduate in CS in three months - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25467900 - Dec 2020 (374 comments)
[+] [-] b8|3 years ago|reply
I wonder if places like RenTech would hire someone with a degree from rentech. I think that the DoD hires folks with degrees from UoP, so I'm not surprised they would. I saw a few folks on Linkedin work at Amazon with degrees from WGU and on their website they list that a few students got accepted to grad programs to Harvard etc. [1].
https://www.uopeople.edu/ WGU reminds me of the uopeople which is in the process of earning regional accreditation.
1. https://www.wgu.edu/alumni/career-support/education-and-prof...
[+] [-] no_wizard|3 years ago|reply
What WGU is though, is mostly self guided learning, you don't have a traditional professor, you have advisors and pooled resources and group study to drive learning and for asking questions. It does work, if you're a very motivated person and learn well without professor / teacher guidance like you would get at a traditional state school.
Is it perfect? No, its definitely not, but its not a diploma mill, and I'd argue its of higher quality than University Of Phoenix and the like.
It's not even structured as a for-profit enterprise.
WGU filled the gap as a working professional. They're extremely affordable too. Would I advise someone who say, is just graduating high school and can get into a state school or good college with scholarships to pivot over to WGU? No, I wouldn't, but they wouldn't benefit from WGU the same way either at that stage of life IMO.
[+] [-] csa|3 years ago|reply
Most federal government jobs that require a degree only require one from an accredited university.
The quality of the degree is not relevant for any but the most sought after positions (e.g., certain state department jobs, federal judge clerkships, etc.).
I think some military folks and some GS folks who want to move up to higher jobs but are prevented by the degree requirement often go to places like WGU. Same holds for masters and doctorate degrees.
[+] [-] imwillofficial|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AviationAtom|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] angarg12|3 years ago|reply
From our experience a degree is a mild indicator of performance when hiring at entry levels. We get some great candidates with no degree, and many poor candidates with degrees. Above entry level, the correlation pretty much disappear. I'm really curios what kind of difficulties OP was facing for not having a title.
I don't think we have completely removed a title from our job posting requirements, but it usually uses one of those silly conversions (CS degree or x years of experience).
That makes me wonder, what value would Universities provide if a degree wasn't a signifier anymore? what if all tech companies hired purely based on interview performance and ignored titles even for filtering? I imagine a future where all the knowledge and material is open and free on the internet, and University staff acts more as coaches and mentors, helping people who needs it in a 1-1 fashion. One can dream.
[+] [-] _tom_|3 years ago|reply
Interview performance is about as low a correlation with job performance as having a degree. (i.e. none) https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-...
If we actually had some way of accurately evaluating performance, it would change the industry.
[+] [-] betwixthewires|3 years ago|reply
The internet is a revolution in information availability and communications capability. People can, right now, learn anything they want, anything at all, for free, all they need is interest, dedication and to prioritize setting aside time for it. The business world still largely operates on the old paradigm though: signaling capability through credentials. But as companies find time and time again that the two don't always (or even usually) correlate, they're creating interesting interview processes to assess capabilities. The credential is largely a legacy requirement in environments like this.
The pace of this change is accelerating. I think over the coming decades you're going to see less importance placed on credentials in technical fields, and people will begin to just learn what they're interested in, what can get them ahead in life, on their own time, and try to work in those fields on their merit and capability. I do believe that one day people won't need credentials, they'll only need to prove themselves. This is easier for honest people but harder for grifters and phonies.
Of course, there are jobs for which mindless obedience, willingness to waste hours of your life and capacity to eat shit are defining characteristics for success. Hopefully those jobs go away, but as long as they exist, they'll have senseless requirements like credentials that people will go through the rigmarole to get. Jobs built out of red tape will have red tape.
[+] [-] AviationAtom|3 years ago|reply
People will not apply for a job because it wants 10 years of experience for an entry-level job, or some other such nonsense. I have found many employers list a dream sheet, but realistically they are open to accepting candidates with less qualifications, especially when they end up getting very few applicants (due to the hefty qualifications they asked for).
[+] [-] brightball|3 years ago|reply
That sounds like a dream come true honestly.
[+] [-] kyawzazaw|3 years ago|reply
https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/
See timeline here: https://www.coloradocollege.edu/academics/curriculum/calenda...
for when each "block" (their term for a single course) start and end
[+] [-] xmprt|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imwillofficial|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] splitstud|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TehShrike|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bialpio|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] triyambakam|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] billllll|3 years ago|reply
I was wondering if getting the degree translated into any professional benefits? The conventional wisdom is that degrees don't matter, but the author in this blog post says otherwise and they unfortunately have not written a follow-up. I personally have a degree, so don't have perspective.
[+] [-] AviationAtom|3 years ago|reply
In government you often get higher pay for having a degree, so it ends up being a box that must be checked if you want to advance further up the pay scales.
[+] [-] danbrooks|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kofejnik|3 years ago|reply
I wanted to complete a CS degree there, since I already have a lot of credits from elsewhere, which I officially transferred to WGU. But then they told me I can't be in CS because I don't have pre-Calculus completed. WAIT WHAT? Right there on my transcript, there are completed 'MATH 460 Math Modeling' and '696 Applied Math Project' and 'MATH 394 Probability and Statistics', which all obviously cover pre-Calc, but no - the appraisers think I might not be able to handle Calculus I so they won't let me go to CS (but I'm welcome to do some IT course).
[+] [-] triyambakam|3 years ago|reply