>Most companies don’t do this because of the mountain of complexities with taxes, payroll, and time zone availability, but I hope we can open-source a solution so other companies can offer this flexibility as well.
I think this is a genius growth play for Airbnb. Make it easier for _other_ companies to operate in a similar way so that _their_ employees can travel and live in an... Airbnb! Next, they should lobby to get US and EU to make short-term "tourism + wfh" visas more accessible so that this becomes even more popular. I think everyone wins here.
I like that he specifically mentioned open floor plans. This is the number one reason why I don't want to return to the office. I kinda do want to go back. But I need my privacy and some quiet. I can't do the open floor plan ever again.
It always annoyed me that they couldn't even be honest and say it was save rent, they had to make it seem like open floor plan was a positive thing because it "increases collaboration"
It's not enough you want to be cheap but you want to make it seem like you're doing it for our benefit.
I went to this office one day a week. But guys in the neighboring cubicles were playing soccer. Not all day but during times of the day. They seriously had a soccer-ball they played with. I didn't know if I should laugh or cry but it was definitely a detriment to productivity. Collaboration. Soccer yeah
These days I’ve found the office is so empty that none of the normal downsides apply. It seems like an unstable equilibrium because why would they keep paying rent for this giant office but I’m enjoying it while it lasts.
Honestly I started doing push ups and pull ups and squats at home during the pandemic. Not a ton. 6 sets of 8-12 during the day. A set takes me a minute or two. At this point I rarely break a sweat and just do them during the day whenever I get up for water or the bathroom.
My health is significantly better overall because of this. I would feel very odd doing this in an office. I have lots of other reasons why I don't like going into an office (mostly losing 1-2 hours a day to commuting) but this is at the top of the list of why I wont go back.
I have been blessed to have a private office for the first 10 years of my career and wfh the last 10. Neither is perfect and I’d really like to work from an office 1-2 days per week. If I did, I wouldn’t mind open plan tbh. The whole reason to come in one day per week would be to be interrupted and interrupt others. And meetings. I still have 4 days for focus work, it would be ok. Going to be office to sit alone used to feel great, now it seems pointless. I’d plan for zero peace and quiet and zero privacy at the office but I’d see it as the whole point of going there.
My company reduced floor space in 2020, so the open-floor office I was sitting in previously doesn't exist anymore, but after working from home for some time, you notice just how noisy an office building really is - even when you are alone in a smaller room, you can hear people talking in the hallway, in the office next to you etc. etc. So that needs some getting used to too...
I'm in a situation right now where my office is near by and open, but attendance is mostly optional and ad hoc. I find that days when I have lots of meetings are the best days to WFH because it's so much easier to talk over Zoom and not have to rush back and forth to meeting rooms. Having a chat window secondary to the out loud talking is also invaluable. The in-person situation is most valuable when I'm working on some tactical problem (ie coding) and want a second set of eyes or just to complain for a minute. It can be done over Slack, but it's less natural.
I hate open floor plans! Give me a proper cube, yes SPEND the money on your workers, don't just cheap out and throw in a picnic table in a big room and call it 'Collaboration', BS!
Sooo.. w/o getting into my history too deeply, my ex and I left the US in 2006 and worked freelance/remote. Wired did an article about us in 2008 living in a solar van when that was, like, unheard of. It seems like every few years a new batch of people want to try this approach, and it's always popular with the press to write about it. Sometimes it works out. I think it's a great way to live, and it teaches you a lot about yourself.
We used to just find vacation rentals. One of the key tricks I used when AirBnb came out was figuring out who the owner was and contacting them directly with a cash offer for 3 months rent with ~25% (sometimes 50%) knocked off if I pay in USD up front. So I'd say most of the places I lived from 2009 on (about 20 places?) I found on AirBnb, thanks guys, and then paid cash to the owner. Only once or twice, for a couple days at most, have I ever actually used AirBnb to run a transaction for me.
Not for nothing, I now live in a house I own in Portland with an AirBnb right next to me whose owners are off living in some other AirBnb out of the country, and I'm pissed as fuck that I'm living next to what's turned into a goddamn motel. But it's wonderful that the AirBnb staff now get the same in-system privileges that unionized airline employees have had for decades. It would be better if it wasn't literally gutting every city from Amsterdam to Bangkok in the process and turning them into hipster slums.
Ive worked for a coding bootcamp since before covid. We used to be in person only and Ive gotten to see the ups and downs of the full-remote transition for at this point hundreds of jr devs entering the field.
Long story short everything I thought would get negative blowback or go up in flames didnt. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and it never does.
Our students work through around 1000 hours of computer science fundamentals remotely, build a portfolio of fullstack applications remotely, get hired at FAANG companies and startups remotely, make their employers happy remotely and get more of our graduates hired remotely.
As someone who used to work in and believe in traditional academia I still can't believe there's no catch. But increasingly it's becoming clear that there's not.
Except that the students can't hook up with eachother and there's no free bad coffee.
Also society could still totally collapse at any moment I guess.
----------
PS I love the green futurism manifesto vibe of airbnbs statement, I wana work there now
I know someone who became mentally ill when the bootcamp switched from in-person to remote and had enough stress to develop schizophrenia from the stresses of trying to apply for jobs remotely and alone in 2020.
i think academia's future is remote. school too - especially if people want to travel nomadically.
Academia has actually had this model for a long time - people moving with their families for postdocs every few years and keeping in touch remotely with old colleagues
This is super cool and I'm glad someone's trying it. The digital nomad lifestyle is really fun and worth trying for a lot of people, at least for a few years.
I'm skeptical this will work out for Airbnb though. My personal experience is that people who self-select into this type of lifestyle are not going to be as productive. There's too much to do and see in a new city, people to meet, foods to try, parties to go to, coupled with much less oversight.
A critical component for remote work productivity is having a routine that somewhat mimics the routine of going in to the office. That said, it can be really hard to detect low performers, and the market is really tight right now so this might be around for a while.
> While you’ll be responsible for getting proper work authorization, we’re actively partnering with local governments to make it easier for more people to travel and work around the world. Today, 20+ countries offer remote work visas, and more are in the works. While working from different locations isn’t possible for everyone, I hope everyone can benefit from this flexibility when the time is right.
I think currently this is a big caveat. Getting a work permit in other countries is not that easy, even for Americans or other countries with more prestigious passports. Maybe with AirBnB clout it is easier than without but I'd say it's still quite an issue.
That being said, I'm really excited for what the future could provide with AirBnB focusing on this. Maybe it will be easier not just for Americans and the like to work in other countries but I really hope it will be easier for others from places such as Africa and Latin America to work in Europe and the US as well.
I don’t think they even try to get work visas. A lot of countries have tourist visas up to 90 days. And if you go to a country to work there, but are not paid by a local company, you are basically a tourist.
I think this is what AirBnB are doing. A lot of countries have a requirement for you to reside in it for at least half the year to be able to be taxed there and be considered an employee. A lot of countries allow people to visit for limited time, as long as you don’t interfere with the local job market - e.g being a tourist. Those two are not in conflict and you can do what AirBnB are doing right now, without much more accounting difficulties. Though I’m not an accountant and take my words with a grain of salt.
Most folks will end up working on tourist visas which is explicitly not allowed around most of the world.
I work at a remote first company and HR have given a nod and a wink to this, but with the requirement that you maintain a permanent address and pay taxes in a country where they have an office.
I think a couple dozen countries offer digital nomad visas now, the ones I've looked into in detail just require you to be employed remotely by a company outside the country and earn at least a couple thousand USD per month.
I find it hard to imagine any country actually cares, and even if they do, I find it hard to imagine they could reasonably check whether anyone is there for tourism, or just to work.
I know some people are very excited about that, and some think that is going to be a new norm. I have not worked for the corps for at least 4-5 years, but before that I always assumed there are only small amount of people who can really work for company remotely.
I definitely saw people calling that they are going to work from home, but saw very little work to be done that day. Which probably means that people used that as excuse, as they had some business to do outside work, and they did not want to take PTO.
I have very little believe that a majority of people can work from home, especially when travel. You are at new place, you going to work like 4-6 hours instead of 8-9 hours. So I do understand why airbnb is telling their employees to do so, but curious how long it is going to last, and curious how real it is going to be (considering that it could be up to management approval as well). But I doubt that other companies will follow that.
I'm kinda of curious how this works if you are remote:
"Most of you should expect to gather in person every quarter for about a week at a time. Some roles, especially senior roles, will be expected to gather more often. We’ll do our best to define windows when most large team off-sites will occur and give you plenty of notice so you can make it work with personal and family plans."
Is this like just plan to be in the SF office during normal 9-5 work hours for a week every 13 weeks or is this like plan on a week long 24-7 corporate retreat away from your family every 13 weeks.
If its the former, then that seems sort of like hybrid work just 1 week per 13 week versus 2-3 day per 5 day where you should probably stick to within 1-2 hour commute of your local AirBNB office.
If its the latter then that seems like it might be a non-starter for people with families.
Sounds nice in some ways. The stickler here is the focus on working in PST still. You’re not gonna get to travel to the EU and work async it sounds like. Which - while making sense - isn’t going to make a good portion of people who want this particularly happy.
After all - remote but stuck in one time zone for working hours isn’t really a huge win. It’s dangling a carrot.
In other news - sounds like comp is going down at Airbnb. Not a surprise.
I hope they add a "remote working approved" tag and filter, just like the "superhost".
I have been working remotely since almost a year now in several European countries and to filter out AirBnBs, which offer a decent desk and have stable internet takes hours. The "workstation" filter can not be trusted and neither the "has Wifi", which doesn't say anything about the quality.
An internet speed test should be required to be done by the host. This way I can avoid having to ask about the internet every time before booking - which takes sometimes half a day for getting a response.
I don't think I'd ever book a place that didn't explicitly list Internet speed if I were to work there and I hate that AirBnB doesn't easily provide this information. The last time I booked a place like that they claimed to have "professional grade" Internet which ended up being a 15mbps down/ 4mbps up connection. Surprisingly (to me at least) that was enough for most video calls.
>If you move, your compensation won’t change. Starting in June, we’ll have single pay tiers by country for both salary and equity.
I wonder how that will look like in practice, countries differ enormously in required pay for a decent living, especially within the US. Wouldn't states/regions for a few countries work better?
People love to predict this, they seek it. Perhaps it feels like pushing against some establishment (when it's serving another establishment). It's trendy now, which affects people who follow trends, but trends change fast. Talented people want to be around other talented people; smart, intellectually curious people want to live where there are great restaurants, arts, beauty, sophisticated people, etc. I don't think that will change.
Add to this the fact that SF has deteriorated a great deal as a city since the start of the pandemic. The loss of downtown office worker revenue has decimated local shops and restaurants. It will take time for things to adjust to the new reality that workers just aren’t going back to how things were.
Coordinating in Pacific Standard Time is really weird. Right now, the Pacific Time zone is on Daylight time, so they'd need to calculate a one-hour offset for everything, even in the main office.
Coordinating on Pacific Time would be less weird.
But, as I learned working at a company that's truly international, coordinating on UTC is better. Each employee only has to know the offset between their own time and UTC. They know when any local Daylight Saving laws shift them relative to UTC, and it's extremely easy to look it up if they forget. It's also extremely easy to look up the UTC offset anywhere you may travel.
Picking Pacific Time, and specifically Pacific Standard Time, is a weird choice.
https://www.remote.com/ is a proxy company with subsidiaries in all countries allowing you to hire employees legally in any country.
I discover it the other day, it's a game changer for remote international teams.
Have laws caught up for this new way to work yet? Last ai checked there are non-insignificant legal and tax issues for small businesses to have employees in other states.
Recently booked a 3 month stay in an airbnb in Denver. 5000$ a month which was a big sacrifice but I wanted to stay somewhere where I would be comfortable . I get to the place and it's nothing like the pictures. I tried really hard to evaluate this possibility but still couldn't catch it, they had done some really creative photography. The appliances are disgusting, the place smells like cigarettes and some kind of industrial cleaner that was used to try to cover up the cigarettes.
So I ask the owner If i can leave, with the offer that I won't leave any type of review just so he won't be scared of that outcome. He rejects my offer and basically laughs at me for falling for his listing.
After all this airbnb then takes down my review because "I had tried to manipulate the owner by offering not to leave a review if he let me leave"
Now I understand why places like this have good reviews. It's unbelievably easy to get negative reviews taken down.
Everybody seems to be praising Airbnb but a couple of things need to be stated about doing remote work. Just because some rules are difficult to enforce or monitor, the spread of these practices will invite increased scrutiny by local authorities.
1) None of the usual 90 days Visas allow you to perform working activities. Neither when issued in the US or in European countries. Even when you are still a resident and employed in your country of residence. See for example the allowed activities for a B-1 or a B-2 Visa.
3) Some professions like Airline crews, Military personal, Athletes and Musicians have specific provisions on the law that allow for their remote work.
5) Each case will be different, subject to a long and complex process. The company announcement mentions:
"Starting in September, you can live and work in over 170 countries for up to 90 days a year in each location."
On a first analysis, seems Airbnb applying again the grow patterns they used before: Flout the rules, push ambiguous legal scenarios, then pay fines or ask for forgiveness before asking for permission.
[+] [-] dang|3 years ago|reply
Airbnb employees can live and work anywhere - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31199833
[+] [-] ultimoo|3 years ago|reply
I think this is a genius growth play for Airbnb. Make it easier for _other_ companies to operate in a similar way so that _their_ employees can travel and live in an... Airbnb! Next, they should lobby to get US and EU to make short-term "tourism + wfh" visas more accessible so that this becomes even more popular. I think everyone wins here.
[+] [-] carlivar|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cube00|3 years ago|reply
It's not enough you want to be cheap but you want to make it seem like you're doing it for our benefit.
[+] [-] galaxyLogic|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fshbbdssbbgdd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AlwaysRock|3 years ago|reply
My health is significantly better overall because of this. I would feel very odd doing this in an office. I have lots of other reasons why I don't like going into an office (mostly losing 1-2 hours a day to commuting) but this is at the top of the list of why I wont go back.
[+] [-] abledon|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dinvlad|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alkonaut|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rob74|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tootie|3 years ago|reply
I'm in a situation right now where my office is near by and open, but attendance is mostly optional and ad hoc. I find that days when I have lots of meetings are the best days to WFH because it's so much easier to talk over Zoom and not have to rush back and forth to meeting rooms. Having a chat window secondary to the out loud talking is also invaluable. The in-person situation is most valuable when I'm working on some tactical problem (ie coding) and want a second set of eyes or just to complain for a minute. It can be done over Slack, but it's less natural.
[+] [-] jollybean|3 years ago|reply
This is a hugely stupid move that companies made.
It was done because the benefits are tangible and immediate, and the costs are soft and indirect. CFO wins over HR.
People should recognize what a big deal this is.
I won't do it either.
[+] [-] psyclobe|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajkjk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noduerme|3 years ago|reply
We used to just find vacation rentals. One of the key tricks I used when AirBnb came out was figuring out who the owner was and contacting them directly with a cash offer for 3 months rent with ~25% (sometimes 50%) knocked off if I pay in USD up front. So I'd say most of the places I lived from 2009 on (about 20 places?) I found on AirBnb, thanks guys, and then paid cash to the owner. Only once or twice, for a couple days at most, have I ever actually used AirBnb to run a transaction for me.
Not for nothing, I now live in a house I own in Portland with an AirBnb right next to me whose owners are off living in some other AirBnb out of the country, and I'm pissed as fuck that I'm living next to what's turned into a goddamn motel. But it's wonderful that the AirBnb staff now get the same in-system privileges that unionized airline employees have had for decades. It would be better if it wasn't literally gutting every city from Amsterdam to Bangkok in the process and turning them into hipster slums.
[+] [-] pkdpic|3 years ago|reply
Long story short everything I thought would get negative blowback or go up in flames didnt. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and it never does.
Our students work through around 1000 hours of computer science fundamentals remotely, build a portfolio of fullstack applications remotely, get hired at FAANG companies and startups remotely, make their employers happy remotely and get more of our graduates hired remotely.
As someone who used to work in and believe in traditional academia I still can't believe there's no catch. But increasingly it's becoming clear that there's not.
Except that the students can't hook up with eachother and there's no free bad coffee.
Also society could still totally collapse at any moment I guess.
----------
PS I love the green futurism manifesto vibe of airbnbs statement, I wana work there now
[+] [-] roflulz|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulcole|3 years ago|reply
Do you believe that remote work is a net gain for society but is a net negative for many individuals?
[+] [-] jdrc|3 years ago|reply
Academia has actually had this model for a long time - people moving with their families for postdocs every few years and keeping in touch remotely with old colleagues
[+] [-] gigglesupstairs|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] barry-cotter|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dominotw|3 years ago|reply
mountain towns would like to have a word here.
[+] [-] librish|3 years ago|reply
I'm skeptical this will work out for Airbnb though. My personal experience is that people who self-select into this type of lifestyle are not going to be as productive. There's too much to do and see in a new city, people to meet, foods to try, parties to go to, coupled with much less oversight.
A critical component for remote work productivity is having a routine that somewhat mimics the routine of going in to the office. That said, it can be really hard to detect low performers, and the market is really tight right now so this might be around for a while.
[+] [-] jimkleiber|3 years ago|reply
I think currently this is a big caveat. Getting a work permit in other countries is not that easy, even for Americans or other countries with more prestigious passports. Maybe with AirBnB clout it is easier than without but I'd say it's still quite an issue.
That being said, I'm really excited for what the future could provide with AirBnB focusing on this. Maybe it will be easier not just for Americans and the like to work in other countries but I really hope it will be easier for others from places such as Africa and Latin America to work in Europe and the US as well.
[+] [-] seer|3 years ago|reply
I think this is what AirBnB are doing. A lot of countries have a requirement for you to reside in it for at least half the year to be able to be taxed there and be considered an employee. A lot of countries allow people to visit for limited time, as long as you don’t interfere with the local job market - e.g being a tourist. Those two are not in conflict and you can do what AirBnB are doing right now, without much more accounting difficulties. Though I’m not an accountant and take my words with a grain of salt.
[+] [-] digianarchist|3 years ago|reply
Most folks will end up working on tourist visas which is explicitly not allowed around most of the world.
I work at a remote first company and HR have given a nod and a wink to this, but with the requirement that you maintain a permanent address and pay taxes in a country where they have an office.
[+] [-] tfehring|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Aeolun|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] outcoldman|3 years ago|reply
I definitely saw people calling that they are going to work from home, but saw very little work to be done that day. Which probably means that people used that as excuse, as they had some business to do outside work, and they did not want to take PTO.
I have very little believe that a majority of people can work from home, especially when travel. You are at new place, you going to work like 4-6 hours instead of 8-9 hours. So I do understand why airbnb is telling their employees to do so, but curious how long it is going to last, and curious how real it is going to be (considering that it could be up to management approval as well). But I doubt that other companies will follow that.
[+] [-] somethoughts|3 years ago|reply
"Most of you should expect to gather in person every quarter for about a week at a time. Some roles, especially senior roles, will be expected to gather more often. We’ll do our best to define windows when most large team off-sites will occur and give you plenty of notice so you can make it work with personal and family plans."
Is this like just plan to be in the SF office during normal 9-5 work hours for a week every 13 weeks or is this like plan on a week long 24-7 corporate retreat away from your family every 13 weeks.
If its the former, then that seems sort of like hybrid work just 1 week per 13 week versus 2-3 day per 5 day where you should probably stick to within 1-2 hour commute of your local AirBNB office.
If its the latter then that seems like it might be a non-starter for people with families.
[+] [-] bradlys|3 years ago|reply
After all - remote but stuck in one time zone for working hours isn’t really a huge win. It’s dangling a carrot.
In other news - sounds like comp is going down at Airbnb. Not a surprise.
[+] [-] zengineer|3 years ago|reply
I have been working remotely since almost a year now in several European countries and to filter out AirBnBs, which offer a decent desk and have stable internet takes hours. The "workstation" filter can not be trusted and neither the "has Wifi", which doesn't say anything about the quality.
An internet speed test should be required to be done by the host. This way I can avoid having to ask about the internet every time before booking - which takes sometimes half a day for getting a response.
[+] [-] gongdzhauh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Nextgrid|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] a_bonobo|3 years ago|reply
>If you move, your compensation won’t change. Starting in June, we’ll have single pay tiers by country for both salary and equity.
I wonder how that will look like in practice, countries differ enormously in required pay for a decent living, especially within the US. Wouldn't states/regions for a few countries work better?
[+] [-] bigtones|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] muglug|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wolverine876|3 years ago|reply
People love to predict this, they seek it. Perhaps it feels like pushing against some establishment (when it's serving another establishment). It's trendy now, which affects people who follow trends, but trends change fast. Talented people want to be around other talented people; smart, intellectually curious people want to live where there are great restaurants, arts, beauty, sophisticated people, etc. I don't think that will change.
[+] [-] peanuty1|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ttul|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smeej|3 years ago|reply
Coordinating on Pacific Time would be less weird.
But, as I learned working at a company that's truly international, coordinating on UTC is better. Each employee only has to know the offset between their own time and UTC. They know when any local Daylight Saving laws shift them relative to UTC, and it's extremely easy to look it up if they forget. It's also extremely easy to look up the UTC offset anywhere you may travel.
Picking Pacific Time, and specifically Pacific Standard Time, is a weird choice.
[+] [-] giorgioz|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 4ad|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spaniard89277|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] twobitshifter|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hugg|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrischen|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anm89|3 years ago|reply
So I ask the owner If i can leave, with the offer that I won't leave any type of review just so he won't be scared of that outcome. He rejects my offer and basically laughs at me for falling for his listing.
After all this airbnb then takes down my review because "I had tried to manipulate the owner by offering not to leave a review if he let me leave"
Now I understand why places like this have good reviews. It's unbelievably easy to get negative reviews taken down.
[+] [-] belter|3 years ago|reply
1) None of the usual 90 days Visas allow you to perform working activities. Neither when issued in the US or in European countries. Even when you are still a resident and employed in your country of residence. See for example the allowed activities for a B-1 or a B-2 Visa.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...
2) You also can't do it on a Schengen Visa for Tourism or Business.
Business Schengen Visa – Traveling to Europe for Business Purposes: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/business-schengen-visa/
3) Some professions like Airline crews, Military personal, Athletes and Musicians have specific provisions on the law that allow for their remote work.
4) For Europe the only way this might work could be with the relatively new Digital Nomad Visa: https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-news/digital-nomad-visas-eu-...
5) Each case will be different, subject to a long and complex process. The company announcement mentions:
On a first analysis, seems Airbnb applying again the grow patterns they used before: Flout the rules, push ambiguous legal scenarios, then pay fines or ask for forgiveness before asking for permission.