As a business owner who once had their Paypal account frozen (mistakenly, but frozen nonetheless) 10 years ago and now does $10,000+ every month through Paypal I can say they're doing something wrong. Paypal doesn't need to steal money, they make billions a year, they don't need your $45,000.
Something smells rotten and it's Diaspora. $200,000 and over one year later and they have nothing to show for it and they're still begging for money. They promised a finished product for $10,000, they received $200,000 and they're still not done. Why are people still giving them money? If a contractor said $10,000 to replace my roof and I gave him $200,000 and he came back saying he needed more I'd call the police and sue, not give him another $45,000
So what happens when they get another 20k or 60k or 200k and they say "oops that's not enough", everyone gets a refund? Or does Diaspora walk away? Or do they hold another donation round in a year?
Sooo disappointed in Diaspora, so many startups could have been created with $200k but they burned the money and now they're back asking for more, like watching a homeless guy buy alcohol with the 20 you just gave him and he comes back asking for more money.
Zuckerberg was just an average programmer and he made Facebook with almost no funding while attending college, these four get $200,000 and make nothing.
I'd love to know what these donators are thinking, can anyone give me a good reason why it's a good idea to keep giving Diaspora money when they already show no progress from the first $200,000 they were given? If you're a donator how will you feel when they receive another 20 or 200k and Diaspora is still a flop?
...over one year later and they have nothing to show for it
and they're still begging for money.
I have no dog in this fight, but your comment confuses me, because there seems to be quite a lot going on. If I look at the "contribute" page[1] and the list of sites publically running diaspora at this stage[2], I see a great deal of progress and useful code. Not a finished product yet, by any means, but they definitely have something pretty concrete to show for their efforts so far.
I pay you money to perform a service, you take the money then you tell me you won't do that service for 6 months. If it had happened to me, I'd be quite angry. This is what Paypal is doing.
I understand their overall procedure to avoid abuse, absolutely; but Diaspora is a somewhat famous project, an absolutely legit operation. You can say what you want on their deliverables, but it doesn't matter: PayPal got a nice cut out of donations to a public and very well-documented project, then turned around and said they'll keep it all for an extra 6 months.
> can anyone give me a good reason why it's a good idea to keep giving Diaspora money
I haven't, but from what I can see, if you want a distributed Facebook alternative Diaspora is, for all its faults, really the only game in town. In the real, non-HN world it has buzz way beyond Appleseed, Friendika et al. An impressive number of my non-tech friends are excited about Diaspora, and don't have a clue about its competitors.
Imagine if all those donations had gone to Appleseed instead. They had a working product before Diaspora even started and they're only asking for $10k to get to version 1.0
"When PayPal mysteriously and arbitrarily decided to freeze everyone’s donations..."
"...We had raised $45,000 in just a few days, and then PayPal froze our account."
Not so mysterious. Believe it or not, no payment service is going to allow you to collect tens of thousands of dollars in a few days with just a name and an e-mail to identify you. The criminal abuse would be rampant. If that doesn't raise the red flags at the risk department of any processor they'd be out of business in no time.
Just another rehash of the same story we've seen on HN a dozen times this year, as recently as ~2 weeks ago with the game developer taking preorders for an undeveloped game -- who eventually satisfied PayPal and later wrote a post about how Google Checkout was worse and PayPal was not so unreasonable after all.
"Yes, you heard that right. PayPal gets to earn interest on all of our donations for 6 months"
If PayPal's agreements with its underwriting banks are anything like the rest of the merchant processing world, then reserve accounts are always non-interest-bearing to prevent any incentive to create them without proper justification.
"Believe it or not, no payment service is going to allow you to collect tens of thousands of dollars in a few days with just a name and an e-mail to identify you."
Using the email address and name is hardly the best way to evaluate the trustworthiness of Diaspora.
There are lots of reasonable questions about how to scale underwriting systems, and how this might work generally, but we shouldn't neglect the fact that in this particular situation 1) Diaspora not being able to receive donations is a bad outcome, and 2) there isn't exactly a paucity of public information about them.
Even though we’ve complied with every PayPal request, including providing them with our certificate of incorporation, they still won’t give us an explanation for any of their moves.
Wow, lots of talk here about a service that none seem to have used.
You all are probably way more involved in creating software and doing private finance than I will ever be, so I can't speak to those areas.
I've been using Diaspora for about a month now - maybe a little while longer and while there are growing pains, I've been really impressed with the way the service works.
While there are lots of people who use Diaspora and Facebook, I ( hopefully ) deleted my Facebook account as I got tired of being the product and use Diaspora exclusively.
And like I said, I'm no tech guru. Any operational questions that I posted were answered promptly and courteously. The folks there are still claiming its alpha, and it works pretty well for me.
Oh, and to the registration question - I Scroogled ' diaspora pod ' and the first listing was for https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/wiki/Community-supporte.... The fourth listing is the pod that I belong to diasp.org - I had no problem signing up the first day I tried.
Try it for yourself and then let us know what you thought
The most mysterious thing is that people actually donated to diaspora? If we've seen what they can achieve with $200k I somehow doubt $40k is going to get us more than... nothing.
> Obviously, PayPal’s behavior is unacceptable, which is why we have asked our lawyer to get involved.
I agree that they weren't the ideal recipients of $200k, but they have produced a fairly functional and usable product. I don't understand the hate they get on HN.
Diaspora is up and running and is it is a great project. They are non-commercial, do not sell your info, and survive on donations and grants. Everyone should open a free account and donate if they like what they see. https://diasp.org/ No invites needed. Please boycott someone else.
While I don't approve of PayPal freezing payment's I can kind of get it with a conference which may or may not take place. They need to protect themselves from having to hand out potentially thousands of dollars in compensation.
What I don't get is why they would freeze an account getting donations. It is a donation. You are not paying for a service which may or may not arrive. Seem's very very strange.
Money laundering. Selling illegal products or services in the guise of donations. Posing as an organization you're not even affiliated with to ask for those donations. Just because someone, who PayPal only knows as a name and an e-mail address, claims to be taking donations does not mean that's actually what's going on. When those donations go from $0 to $45,000 in a few days, it behooves them to identify that customer and check out exactly where all that money is coming from and what risk is associated with it.
Even if they are bonafide donations, if there are expectations attached to those funds (that the company is going to build a product or perform a specific service, or put it towards a certain cause) and there's a risk those expectations won't be met, then there's a risk for PayPal that some of those donors are going to be upset and do something about it -- like cry fraud and charge back the payments. PayPal has to carefully manage its chargeback rate like every other merchant.
I have a paypal question..What happens when you plan ahead and supply paypal with additional information such as incorporation papers, etc when setting up a new account?
[+] [-] ohboy|14 years ago|reply
Something smells rotten and it's Diaspora. $200,000 and over one year later and they have nothing to show for it and they're still begging for money. They promised a finished product for $10,000, they received $200,000 and they're still not done. Why are people still giving them money? If a contractor said $10,000 to replace my roof and I gave him $200,000 and he came back saying he needed more I'd call the police and sue, not give him another $45,000
So what happens when they get another 20k or 60k or 200k and they say "oops that's not enough", everyone gets a refund? Or does Diaspora walk away? Or do they hold another donation round in a year?
Sooo disappointed in Diaspora, so many startups could have been created with $200k but they burned the money and now they're back asking for more, like watching a homeless guy buy alcohol with the 20 you just gave him and he comes back asking for more money.
Zuckerberg was just an average programmer and he made Facebook with almost no funding while attending college, these four get $200,000 and make nothing.
I'd love to know what these donators are thinking, can anyone give me a good reason why it's a good idea to keep giving Diaspora money when they already show no progress from the first $200,000 they were given? If you're a donator how will you feel when they receive another 20 or 200k and Diaspora is still a flop?
[+] [-] Estragon|14 years ago|reply
[1] http://diasporafoundation.org/get_involved
[2] https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/wiki/Community-supporte...
[+] [-] toyg|14 years ago|reply
I understand their overall procedure to avoid abuse, absolutely; but Diaspora is a somewhat famous project, an absolutely legit operation. You can say what you want on their deliverables, but it doesn't matter: PayPal got a nice cut out of donations to a public and very well-documented project, then turned around and said they'll keep it all for an extra 6 months.
That's not cool.
[+] [-] Joeboy|14 years ago|reply
I haven't, but from what I can see, if you want a distributed Facebook alternative Diaspora is, for all its faults, really the only game in town. In the real, non-HN world it has buzz way beyond Appleseed, Friendika et al. An impressive number of my non-tech friends are excited about Diaspora, and don't have a clue about its competitors.
[+] [-] jamii|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ecspike|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dangrossman|14 years ago|reply
"...We had raised $45,000 in just a few days, and then PayPal froze our account."
Not so mysterious. Believe it or not, no payment service is going to allow you to collect tens of thousands of dollars in a few days with just a name and an e-mail to identify you. The criminal abuse would be rampant. If that doesn't raise the red flags at the risk department of any processor they'd be out of business in no time.
Just another rehash of the same story we've seen on HN a dozen times this year, as recently as ~2 weeks ago with the game developer taking preorders for an undeveloped game -- who eventually satisfied PayPal and later wrote a post about how Google Checkout was worse and PayPal was not so unreasonable after all.
"Yes, you heard that right. PayPal gets to earn interest on all of our donations for 6 months"
If PayPal's agreements with its underwriting banks are anything like the rest of the merchant processing world, then reserve accounts are always non-interest-bearing to prevent any incentive to create them without proper justification.
[+] [-] pc|14 years ago|reply
Using the email address and name is hardly the best way to evaluate the trustworthiness of Diaspora.
There are lots of reasonable questions about how to scale underwriting systems, and how this might work generally, but we shouldn't neglect the fact that in this particular situation 1) Diaspora not being able to receive donations is a bad outcome, and 2) there isn't exactly a paucity of public information about them.
[+] [-] fungi|14 years ago|reply
try harder.
from TFA:
Even though we’ve complied with every PayPal request, including providing them with our certificate of incorporation, they still won’t give us an explanation for any of their moves.
[+] [-] iridesce|14 years ago|reply
You all are probably way more involved in creating software and doing private finance than I will ever be, so I can't speak to those areas.
I've been using Diaspora for about a month now - maybe a little while longer and while there are growing pains, I've been really impressed with the way the service works.
While there are lots of people who use Diaspora and Facebook, I ( hopefully ) deleted my Facebook account as I got tired of being the product and use Diaspora exclusively.
And like I said, I'm no tech guru. Any operational questions that I posted were answered promptly and courteously. The folks there are still claiming its alpha, and it works pretty well for me.
Oh, and to the registration question - I Scroogled ' diaspora pod ' and the first listing was for https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/wiki/Community-supporte.... The fourth listing is the pod that I belong to diasp.org - I had no problem signing up the first day I tried.
Try it for yourself and then let us know what you thought
[+] [-] citricsquid|14 years ago|reply
> Obviously, PayPal’s behavior is unacceptable, which is why we have asked our lawyer to get involved.
oh wait, that's where any money is going to go.
[+] [-] Joeboy|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] diaspanon|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Raphael|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Joeboy|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VonLipwig|14 years ago|reply
While I don't approve of PayPal freezing payment's I can kind of get it with a conference which may or may not take place. They need to protect themselves from having to hand out potentially thousands of dollars in compensation.
What I don't get is why they would freeze an account getting donations. It is a donation. You are not paying for a service which may or may not arrive. Seem's very very strange.
[+] [-] dangrossman|14 years ago|reply
Even if they are bonafide donations, if there are expectations attached to those funds (that the company is going to build a product or perform a specific service, or put it towards a certain cause) and there's a risk those expectations won't be met, then there's a risk for PayPal that some of those donors are going to be upset and do something about it -- like cry fraud and charge back the payments. PayPal has to carefully manage its chargeback rate like every other merchant.
[+] [-] pork|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Estragon|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shareme|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jsavimbi|14 years ago|reply