I think our narcissism is largely a product of a culture obsessed with individual identity, individual success and ego. One of the best pieces I ever read on HN was by a Shopify engineer just a month ago about why he serves in the British Yeomanry. (https://chrisseaton.com/army/)
"Being in the Army also grounds me in reality and in my community. The tech world can be a relatively narrow cross-section of society. When I spend time with the Army I interact with the full spectrum of my local community. My squadron has nurses, carpenters, architects, police officers, unemployed people, veterinarians, warehouse workers, tree surgeons, railway engineers, pilots, firefighters. I get to interact with people from a variety of backgrounds, a variety of economic situations, with a variety of outlooks[...] More than just interacting with a cross-section of society, it means building a very high level of trust and depending on each other. When we’re in the field there’s absolutely nowhere to hide, with no privacy and no time-off, and you’ll need to manage to get along. There’s a big taboo of being ‘jack’ and not looking after each other or serving yourself before others."
I had a similar experience when I had to do military service. I don't think there's a better cure for narcissism than getting out of your head and comfort zone, doing something for and with other people in the real world. We should remember where the word 'narcissism' comes from. From Narcissus staring into his own reflection. So sitting in your room, reflecting on how totally not narcissistic you are is never going to be a solution.
I hate pathologizing, I whine a lot about it on HN, but for some people, narcissism is pathological and no amount of service towards others will give them perspective.
I once knew a self-described narcissist who was proud of the fact. At one point, doing volunteer work benefited them, possibly for college credit or something, I forget.
Their lesson from serving in a soup kitchen? "The homeless people didn't thank me enough, they're all so greedy and should be more thankful that I'm giving them food instead of doing something better with my time."
Think there is also a certain level of self-policing that happens in the military as well, which does not exactly reward those high in ego/self-centered behavior.
One thing I appreciate about my friends from the military, over a decade later even, is I can trust they’ll call me out when I deserve it (and vice versa).
Is there any kind of parallel for this kind of experience. I’ve always thought the rigidity and discipline of military life would suit me well. This is another reason why I would love to join up. I have a family and a career now though and joining up would be a selfish decision
It's entirely possible to have rewarding & meaningful interactions with narcissistic people. Here's my process.
First, realize you're not so much better. Don't expect too much.
Next, don't insult them. Be aware of power games; don't get confused. Be straightforward.
Generally avoid putting yourself in a situation where you need something from them. If they offer a favor, accept it (if you want) and say "thank you".
Finally, don't try to fix them. Be simple. Offer them your time, and not much else.
You'd be surprised at how many narcissists are relieved and happy to meet someone who behaves in this way.
Right, don't enter partner agreements with them, don't develop any kind of attachment to them, don't let them close, don't let them get too familiar with you (familiarity breeds their contempt) etc.
One foot out the door and don't let them close to anything that you would be upset with them breaking (they never apologize or take responsibility so just factor in how much bad they can do to you) and you'll be fine, they can even be an asset to the community and volunteer in exchange for kudos in the right circumstances.
Yeah, the problem w/ this theory is that they're still narcissists. You can do all the above and perhaps you'll succeed in convincing yourself you're having a "rewarding & meaningful interaction" ... but the "reward" and "meaning" for the narcissist is in what interacting with you does (and can be made to do) for them, especially and even ideally at the expense of you. It actually sounds a bit like the point of this post is to establish that you yourself are special for being able to get along with a narcissist -- which is exactly what they'd like you to be thinking and just sets you up even more so to be taken advantage of by them. For whatever it's worth.
I agree with all this, except for offering them your time. If you're not careful a narcissist will waste all your time and attention for self-validation (or perhaps other malicious purposes, depending on the type of narcissist). At that point you're just feeding the beast and reinforcing their expectation that they can demand limitless time and attention from people for their own vain needs. They will teach you to distrust yourself to suit their own inner narrative if they think you are challenging it.
Time and attention granted to narcissists needs to be watched very closely. You're totally right that they need to be approached with empathy, and you don't need to completely ignore them or treat them as pariahs. However it's OK to disengage with them when you're being exploited for their self-validation.
Unfortunately, I've really recently come to the realization that a longtime friend of mine has narcissistic traits, I didn't really realize it until another mutual friend started to get frustrated in the same way that I had been from time to time. Then I realized that my intuition was right, and how much the friendship had turned toxic because of how much it caused me to doubt myself, in service of their ego.
Since I had been giving them so much time and attention while trying to be a good friend, I realized that they were making me doubt myself so they never had to reflect on themselves or have their way of thinking challenged. They're not a bad person and I think it comes down to insecurities, but the past couple weeks that I'm actively tuning them out when things cease to be a conversation, and rather them just talking at me with no way to get a word in edgewise (sometimes for up to an hour at a time!), telling me the exact same story they just told me yesterday, or even a few hours ago, just to hear themself talk.
Since I started creating boundaries like that I have a lot more energy and focus for myself since I realized that it had convinced me to care about propping up their self-image rather than taking care of my own needs.
I appreciate the tips (really) but the gist of it sounds awfully close to "just treat them like a baby and pamper them". Could work if you _really_ need this person, but doesn't sound... healthy?
Dealing with narcissist is relatively straightforward - it's the dark triad types you need to watch out for. They will try to ruin your life just for the fun/sport of it.
I would not say this is the end all be all of interacting with narcissists but I agree that it is entirely possible to have meaningful interactions with them.
I would probably go farther and say that generally we should probably apply some of this type of logic to all the relationships in our lives - expectations should always be realistically tailored to the individual within reason.
Even if this is your preferred way of dealing with them, I don't think it's good for general advice. In my experience narcissists tend to be manipulative, and that any boundaries you put forward are offensive.
Does anybody else feel the hair on their neck rise when they hear accusations of narcissism? A few times in my life I've known people who tried to control me by accusing all of my other friends of being narcissists, telling me that I should stop being around them. I now believe that accusing other people of narcissism is one method employed by narcissists, so these sort of accusations now make me very nervous about the person making them.
Also it reminds me of the 'asshole' theory; that if you meet an asshole one day, you've simply met an asshole. But if you meet many assholes every day, it's probably you who's the asshole. Somebody who perceives many narcissists all over the place is somebody I'm wary of.
Yeah this is my first thought when I read this. Calling others narcissists is more often a red flag for the accuser than the accusee in my opinion.
Narcissism is a spectrum just like every other personality trait, not some binary thing that some people are and some people aren't. And you don't really want to be on either extreme of that spectrum in my opinion.
I think the term is often used to mean "someone who isn't giving me what I want so I'm going to pathologize my not liking them".
That being said, there are certainly people who are subjectively obnoxiously narcissistic and I'm sure in a clinical setting you find true outliers who are deeply pathological.
Yes. Abusers often claim to be the victim and turn people against their target. And abusers will often provoke victims, complicating the situation.
> A few times in my life I've known people who tried to control me
And you are aware of a red flag.
Another good tool -- narcissists (other manipulators, abusers) will use fear, obligation, and guilt to control people -- FOG. If you find yourself feeling those emotions around / because of certain people, investigate carefully as to why.
> Also it reminds me of the 'asshole' theory; that if you meet an asshole one day, you've simply met an asshole. But if you meet many assholes every day, it's probably you who's the asshole. Somebody who perceives many narcissists all over the place is somebody I'm wary of.
Witch hunts should be scrutinized as much as wolf-criers. Groups of people regularly dispense with rigor and independent thought when it comes to enforcing social consensus especially when such consensus is superstitiously predicated upon the need of a scapegoat.
You have an obligation to date me is the claim. I'm the "nice guy / good guy". (No, I am not obligated to date you.)
If you don't I will label and attack you as a narcissist, as "toxic" etc (that drives fear). (As soon as you start hearing this type of stuff - get out, because relationships depend on trust and someone looking to destroy you or making those kind of claims / threats is not someone to trust and are using fear and threats)
The folks who see this "all around" often have some of their own personal issues. I think one can by sympathetic to them, but be very cautious about a close personal relationship with them - drama and conflict.
My own experience is they are often searching for something (connection etc) because they struggle to find it. So they can get into heavy travel, sometimes drugs or more intense experience (desert raves etc) which provide a (temporary) feeling of connection without the hard work of ongoing community and relationship. I still see friends from high school and college. Is it easy? No. Is it worth it? Absolutely. Same with relationship (and marriage and kids). Easy? No. Worth it? For sure. And in that friend group, you can give each other a bit of a hard time for our personal failings - but it's never an attack like this (narcissism, your toxic etc). It's more like, there goes Joe, dine and dash again - with affection and an invite to the next hangout (and joe might need to get back for kids etc).
I feel the same. Because whenever I hear these accusations, part of me goes, "oh no, am I a narcissist? Am I one of those horrible people?" But then I take a step back and go, "wait. It feels like someone is trying to control the people around them with guilt."
So then I reject the concept entirely and instead ask another set of questions:
- Do you hurt people?
- Do you insist on dominating people's conversations?
- Do you take things from people?
- Do you steal credit?
- Are you mean?
- Do you display physical violence?
- Do you throw tantrums?
- Do you lie about other people?
No? Well, fine, that doesn't mean you're perfect -- we all sin -- but... is it really likely that you have some terrible behavioral pathology? I don't think so.
The problem is, this gets mixed with a bunch of other things that, as far as I can tell, are universal:
- Do you like to feel appreciated?
- Do you enjoy positive attention? (Well, only so much, actually.)
- Do you try to keep up appearances? Dress better when you're going out? Worry about embarrassment when public speaking?
Isn't all that just normal? I'd think it is! In fact, what happens if you reverse these? A person who gives no shit what other people think -- what motivates them? I just don't understand it. It's like considering a reptile. We're social creatures.
At some level --
Do you attack other people?
If the answer is no, you're probably ok.
And if you're throwing the word "narcissist" at people... doesn't that make you an attacker?
Generally there’s huge rewards for being a narcissist. Refusing to ever admit your wrong and instead gaslighting people around you works really well. People figure out the pattern, just shuffle them out of your life and add new people. I noticed that a few friends I grew up with developed this approach when they found it worked extremely well with women.
It works well as long as there is an abundance of people willing to stick around, which is when these people will develop this mindset. With a bit of luck they'll grow out of it once the environment no longer makes it beneficial, but many are too far gone by then.
It's part of why PUA circles (to stick with the dating example in the article) hammer "abundance mentality" so much. You don't have to deal with a person having a problem with you when, as you say, you can shuffle them out for someone else.
Unfortunately this means there's no incentive for them to change. Becoming a better person and having healthier relationships takes a lot of effort, and to them, they are giving up power (and becoming vulnerable) -- so why bother? And empathy for others will never be a motivator, here.
The show "Inventing Anna" is a perfect example of this. Charismatic narcissist gaslights everyone around her and anyone who doesn't plan along gets replaced with someone who will.
Depends on how deep they are into it. Some people with such traits can't keep down a job or even familial relationships without their ego getting in the way.
>A week later, I received a few ambiguous and regretful messages from her, which escalated to a phone call in which she sought guidance on her next date
The author needs to spend time identifying how people use tactics to assert and obtain power. Even if you don't want to use those tactics yourself, which is fine, your whole life will be better served by knowing how to deflect tactics others use to submit you (lowering your perceived value to others).
For some people, all they have is power games. They can't rely on abilities or genuine personality traits, so they have to rely on manipulating perceptions of themselves and others. Other people have the privilege of not needing to do that, so they never develop those manipulation instincts through practice. They get taken advantage of because they don't even see the games being played.
Imo, the sweet spot is not needing to manipulate others in order to have your intended effect on the world, but being able to do so to when it's required.
It took me far too long to understand that people played power games and would actively hurt my psychology to put themselves ahead. Very odd realization and rather sad. I grew up as an objective person who always tried to see both sides. An odd awakening to realize not everyone thought like me
Both this article and your comment sum-up what I have really been struggling with lately at work. I’ve never experienced such a narcissistic person and have had a hard time not only dealing with their behaviour, but identifying it for what it is in the first place.
> spend time identifying how people use tactics to assert and obtain power
Other than just being aware and observant and learning through experience, are there any good resources for this? "Art of War" maybe? Something from fields like psychology or sociology?
You cannot solve your narcissism through introspection. Introspection will only lead you to thinking you've found the answer, and stopping there so you don't have to change. "I've figured it out, I know why I'm a narcissist," and then stopping there.
People can't tell you how to stop being a narcissist. If someone tells you exactly what to do, you'll do that thing, and then stop. "I'm doing that thing now, so I'm not a narcissist!"
Your mind will simulate the most awful pain imaginable just to protect against changing your behaviour. You think your suffering is making you a good person, that by looking at the painful parts of your mind you are no longer a narcissist, but you're at the same place as you were before. You haven't changed your behaviour at all.
1. A great many narcissistic children will label a classmate / neighbor an enemy somewhere between grades 6-8, and do everything in their power to destroy him.
Their popularity and talent for molding public opinion will help them, as will the understanding that no one else wants to be his next victim.
Unfortunately, I have seen this too often (the school psych told me it is a common trait for narcissists), and the effects on the victim are catastrophic.
2. As someone who runs a youth group, I know a family which is highly narcissist. It is very painful for me to watch them (they are children, so it is not personal, nor is it a threat). By the first kid, I mentioned something to the father, who turned on me personally and caused some days of heartache. By now, I just feel bad for them - and everyone who will ever be in contact with them. The school psychologist said that he cannot provide help without the parents OK, and the parents will never say OK.
I know of one. Many won't like it, though, because it involves flexing the muscles of the state. And at the end, I'm not sure the potential benefits outweigh the real risks.
> Following that dramedy, I packed my belongings and embarked on a nomadic lifestyle in which I lived in multiple co-living spaces and met a wide and authentic group of people.
Oookay, feels a bit "pot calling the kettle black" here, not really sure what the point of this article really was, other than to exclaim, "Narcissism exists!"
As someone with several narcissistic traits, the book "The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A Fuck" by Mark Manson was an eye-opener. It succinctly describes detrimental thought patterns that you might even not know you have, and gives examples of more productive mindsets.
Can recommend for anyone dealing with insecurities.
The impulse to "help" other people is noble. Except for those quotes around "help." This isn't about helping others so much as dealing with them. And that's toxic in itself.
Narcissus liked to stare into his lacuna. So harm reduction might be digging more lacunae. With enough reflective surfaces, Narcissus might have a "normal" life.
I've experienced environments where everyone constantly gets praise for the least little aspect of existing.
I am sad to say that I have had a significant dealings with a narcissist for years without being familiar with the term.
From my experience, the narcissist suffered some traumatic event, probably in ~early childhood, and somehow it caused them to become maladapted in the way they perceive the world and their role in it. I don't believe narcissism is caused by culture/society. Although, it anecdotally, I wonder if there is also a genetic factor.
Regardless of the cause, the person and their behavior are irrevocably damaged and the only way of dealing with them is not feeding them. Maintain extreme neutrality and disinterest and stay as far away as you can. All they do is harm, and they have no capability of ever taking accountability, it is simply beyond their comprehension. If you suggest that there is an issue, you will quickly find out that you are the issue, and the narcissist will get hard at work taking you apart, piece by piece, until there is nothing left of you.
The problem I have with articles like these (and discussions about narcissism in general) is that they often fail to classify or recognize that like many aspects of our psyche it is a spectrum of behaviours and beliefs. The extreme examples are of course shocking and easily derided - but on some level we need a healthy amount of narcissism in our lives.
When people label humans as narcissists or their behaviors as narcissistic (or socialist/fascist/sexist/etc), I mostly feel confused at what they mean and wish they would describe more specific behaviors, and ideally, how they themselves were feeling in response to those behaviors. I think we sometimes use such labels as shortcuts and assume others know what we mean, and yet by abstracting so much, we can create more distance and less understanding. I believe these terms can become buckets into which we throw all sorts of "they did something evil / that hurt me" actions that may or may not relate to the theory of narcissism.
In lieu of that, when I hear someone claim someone else is a narcissist, I mostly just assume the person claiming that feels very hurt or angry by something that other person did.
I can't imagine this will ever change. How do you encourage someone who seeks the admiration of others at all costs to simply stop?
Without a shred of evidence, I'm sure the increased use of social media is at least partially to blame.
> I don't want to be with someone who doesn't care to drink tap water
I don’t know if it’s ultimatum worthy, but this is a really curious behavior to me. Tap water in almost all of the US is healthy and fine. So not drinking tap water is as queer to me as not wearing any clothes that weren’t professionally cleaned.
I’ve heard from people that they don’t like the taste of tap water. But if one lives in an area for a few weeks the taste is acquired.
"Dr. Ramani give numbers around 15% of the population, while my therapist believes it's considerably higher, but I assume she's biased since she lives in Paris."
This might be my favorite quote I've ever read. It reads of pulp fiction and I love it. I know I'll get downvoted, but I can't believe that Paris can be worse than any other major urban center like New York, L.A., Milan or Quebec.
> impressive accomplishments: a dozen academic degrees in various fields
Having a dozen academic degrees is not impressive even if true. If true, it would be a warning sign that the person isn't able to move on to something deeper and more meaningful than degrees.
Ive thought a lot about that lately and found an explanation (about why do narcicism and psychopathy seem to be more trendy) which satisfies me.
Farms and factories used to employ a lot of people. It was the default job back in the day. So we have two things, 1) it was difficult to get out, especially when you do things superficially and 2), well then, being a "body person" (think muscles) was more trendy than being a "brain person" (think nerd). I dont think the nerds are mocked at schools anymore, I think they are the stars (though its actually conjecture, Id love to verify that).
So yeah, more people out of guetto lives (one might say not the best on average, if you'd forgive me the shortcut here) and the need to look smart socially. Boom psycho crisis.
As a sidenote, same thing happened with the web, it used to be a nerd-with-glass thing (many wouldn't even want to be seen with a computer), you had to have a computer which was expensive and useless for your say, average factory worker.
Now what can we do? Teach children basic psychology, yoga and buddhism maybe? We got to do something because thats a lot of people on the brain market now and thats not gonna end well :)
[+] [-] Barrin92|3 years ago|reply
"Being in the Army also grounds me in reality and in my community. The tech world can be a relatively narrow cross-section of society. When I spend time with the Army I interact with the full spectrum of my local community. My squadron has nurses, carpenters, architects, police officers, unemployed people, veterinarians, warehouse workers, tree surgeons, railway engineers, pilots, firefighters. I get to interact with people from a variety of backgrounds, a variety of economic situations, with a variety of outlooks[...] More than just interacting with a cross-section of society, it means building a very high level of trust and depending on each other. When we’re in the field there’s absolutely nowhere to hide, with no privacy and no time-off, and you’ll need to manage to get along. There’s a big taboo of being ‘jack’ and not looking after each other or serving yourself before others."
I had a similar experience when I had to do military service. I don't think there's a better cure for narcissism than getting out of your head and comfort zone, doing something for and with other people in the real world. We should remember where the word 'narcissism' comes from. From Narcissus staring into his own reflection. So sitting in your room, reflecting on how totally not narcissistic you are is never going to be a solution.
[+] [-] heavyset_go|3 years ago|reply
I once knew a self-described narcissist who was proud of the fact. At one point, doing volunteer work benefited them, possibly for college credit or something, I forget.
Their lesson from serving in a soup kitchen? "The homeless people didn't thank me enough, they're all so greedy and should be more thankful that I'm giving them food instead of doing something better with my time."
[+] [-] bladegash|3 years ago|reply
One thing I appreciate about my friends from the military, over a decade later even, is I can trust they’ll call me out when I deserve it (and vice versa).
[+] [-] ozarker|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] simonebrunozzi|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] happythebob|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] ristlane|3 years ago|reply
First, realize you're not so much better. Don't expect too much.
Next, don't insult them. Be aware of power games; don't get confused. Be straightforward.
Generally avoid putting yourself in a situation where you need something from them. If they offer a favor, accept it (if you want) and say "thank you".
Finally, don't try to fix them. Be simple. Offer them your time, and not much else.
You'd be surprised at how many narcissists are relieved and happy to meet someone who behaves in this way.
[+] [-] fellowniusmonk|3 years ago|reply
One foot out the door and don't let them close to anything that you would be upset with them breaking (they never apologize or take responsibility so just factor in how much bad they can do to you) and you'll be fine, they can even be an asset to the community and volunteer in exchange for kudos in the right circumstances.
[+] [-] zeptonix|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 4oo4|3 years ago|reply
Time and attention granted to narcissists needs to be watched very closely. You're totally right that they need to be approached with empathy, and you don't need to completely ignore them or treat them as pariahs. However it's OK to disengage with them when you're being exploited for their self-validation.
Unfortunately, I've really recently come to the realization that a longtime friend of mine has narcissistic traits, I didn't really realize it until another mutual friend started to get frustrated in the same way that I had been from time to time. Then I realized that my intuition was right, and how much the friendship had turned toxic because of how much it caused me to doubt myself, in service of their ego.
Since I had been giving them so much time and attention while trying to be a good friend, I realized that they were making me doubt myself so they never had to reflect on themselves or have their way of thinking challenged. They're not a bad person and I think it comes down to insecurities, but the past couple weeks that I'm actively tuning them out when things cease to be a conversation, and rather them just talking at me with no way to get a word in edgewise (sometimes for up to an hour at a time!), telling me the exact same story they just told me yesterday, or even a few hours ago, just to hear themself talk.
Since I started creating boundaries like that I have a lot more energy and focus for myself since I realized that it had convinced me to care about propping up their self-image rather than taking care of my own needs.
[+] [-] heavyset_go|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ed_elliott_asc|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] twelve40|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mise_en_place|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Melatonic|3 years ago|reply
I would probably go farther and say that generally we should probably apply some of this type of logic to all the relationships in our lives - expectations should always be realistically tailored to the individual within reason.
[+] [-] fudged71|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Teever|3 years ago|reply
I question the cost benefit analysis of such a course of action however.
Given two otherwise identical people, one narcissist and one not, which one would you pick for an interaction?
Which one would you pick in a job interview?
Which one would you pick to date?
And that's the gist of it, if I don't have to, why would I ever interact with a narcissist again?
To take a page from their book -- What's in it for me?
[+] [-] YATA2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robonerd|3 years ago|reply
Also it reminds me of the 'asshole' theory; that if you meet an asshole one day, you've simply met an asshole. But if you meet many assholes every day, it's probably you who's the asshole. Somebody who perceives many narcissists all over the place is somebody I'm wary of.
[+] [-] anm89|3 years ago|reply
Narcissism is a spectrum just like every other personality trait, not some binary thing that some people are and some people aren't. And you don't really want to be on either extreme of that spectrum in my opinion.
I think the term is often used to mean "someone who isn't giving me what I want so I'm going to pathologize my not liking them".
That being said, there are certainly people who are subjectively obnoxiously narcissistic and I'm sure in a clinical setting you find true outliers who are deeply pathological.
[+] [-] blacksignal|3 years ago|reply
> A few times in my life I've known people who tried to control me
And you are aware of a red flag.
Another good tool -- narcissists (other manipulators, abusers) will use fear, obligation, and guilt to control people -- FOG. If you find yourself feeling those emotions around / because of certain people, investigate carefully as to why.
[+] [-] Dracophoenix|3 years ago|reply
Witch hunts should be scrutinized as much as wolf-criers. Groups of people regularly dispense with rigor and independent thought when it comes to enforcing social consensus especially when such consensus is superstitiously predicated upon the need of a scapegoat.
[+] [-] tempnow987|3 years ago|reply
It's the fear and obligation type attack.
You have an obligation to date me is the claim. I'm the "nice guy / good guy". (No, I am not obligated to date you.)
If you don't I will label and attack you as a narcissist, as "toxic" etc (that drives fear). (As soon as you start hearing this type of stuff - get out, because relationships depend on trust and someone looking to destroy you or making those kind of claims / threats is not someone to trust and are using fear and threats)
The folks who see this "all around" often have some of their own personal issues. I think one can by sympathetic to them, but be very cautious about a close personal relationship with them - drama and conflict.
My own experience is they are often searching for something (connection etc) because they struggle to find it. So they can get into heavy travel, sometimes drugs or more intense experience (desert raves etc) which provide a (temporary) feeling of connection without the hard work of ongoing community and relationship. I still see friends from high school and college. Is it easy? No. Is it worth it? Absolutely. Same with relationship (and marriage and kids). Easy? No. Worth it? For sure. And in that friend group, you can give each other a bit of a hard time for our personal failings - but it's never an attack like this (narcissism, your toxic etc). It's more like, there goes Joe, dine and dash again - with affection and an invite to the next hangout (and joe might need to get back for kids etc).
[+] [-] FooBarBizBazz|3 years ago|reply
So then I reject the concept entirely and instead ask another set of questions:
- Do you hurt people?
- Do you insist on dominating people's conversations?
- Do you take things from people?
- Do you steal credit?
- Are you mean?
- Do you display physical violence?
- Do you throw tantrums?
- Do you lie about other people?
No? Well, fine, that doesn't mean you're perfect -- we all sin -- but... is it really likely that you have some terrible behavioral pathology? I don't think so.
The problem is, this gets mixed with a bunch of other things that, as far as I can tell, are universal:
- Do you like to feel appreciated?
- Do you enjoy positive attention? (Well, only so much, actually.)
- Do you try to keep up appearances? Dress better when you're going out? Worry about embarrassment when public speaking?
Isn't all that just normal? I'd think it is! In fact, what happens if you reverse these? A person who gives no shit what other people think -- what motivates them? I just don't understand it. It's like considering a reptile. We're social creatures.
At some level --
Do you attack other people?
If the answer is no, you're probably ok.
And if you're throwing the word "narcissist" at people... doesn't that make you an attacker?
Something about it all just makes my skin crawl.
[+] [-] cirrus3|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] greatpostman|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BlargMcLarg|3 years ago|reply
It's part of why PUA circles (to stick with the dating example in the article) hammer "abundance mentality" so much. You don't have to deal with a person having a problem with you when, as you say, you can shuffle them out for someone else.
[+] [-] blacksignal|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fudged71|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] heavyset_go|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] daenz|3 years ago|reply
The author needs to spend time identifying how people use tactics to assert and obtain power. Even if you don't want to use those tactics yourself, which is fine, your whole life will be better served by knowing how to deflect tactics others use to submit you (lowering your perceived value to others).
For some people, all they have is power games. They can't rely on abilities or genuine personality traits, so they have to rely on manipulating perceptions of themselves and others. Other people have the privilege of not needing to do that, so they never develop those manipulation instincts through practice. They get taken advantage of because they don't even see the games being played.
Imo, the sweet spot is not needing to manipulate others in order to have your intended effect on the world, but being able to do so to when it's required.
[+] [-] fdgsdfogijq|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bGl2YW5j|3 years ago|reply
Thanks for the insight.
[+] [-] adrianmonk|3 years ago|reply
Other than just being aware and observant and learning through experience, are there any good resources for this? "Art of War" maybe? Something from fields like psychology or sociology?
[+] [-] kadenwolff|3 years ago|reply
People can't tell you how to stop being a narcissist. If someone tells you exactly what to do, you'll do that thing, and then stop. "I'm doing that thing now, so I'm not a narcissist!"
Your mind will simulate the most awful pain imaginable just to protect against changing your behaviour. You think your suffering is making you a good person, that by looking at the painful parts of your mind you are no longer a narcissist, but you're at the same place as you were before. You haven't changed your behaviour at all.
[+] [-] sam_goody|3 years ago|reply
Their popularity and talent for molding public opinion will help them, as will the understanding that no one else wants to be his next victim.
Unfortunately, I have seen this too often (the school psych told me it is a common trait for narcissists), and the effects on the victim are catastrophic.
2. As someone who runs a youth group, I know a family which is highly narcissist. It is very painful for me to watch them (they are children, so it is not personal, nor is it a threat). By the first kid, I mentioned something to the father, who turned on me personally and caused some days of heartache. By now, I just feel bad for them - and everyone who will ever be in contact with them. The school psychologist said that he cannot provide help without the parents OK, and the parents will never say OK.
I know of no solution.
[+] [-] malwarebytess|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TameAntelope|3 years ago|reply
Oookay, feels a bit "pot calling the kettle black" here, not really sure what the point of this article really was, other than to exclaim, "Narcissism exists!"
[+] [-] mbakke|3 years ago|reply
Can recommend for anyone dealing with insecurities.
[+] [-] rogerclark|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drewcoo|3 years ago|reply
The impulse to "help" other people is noble. Except for those quotes around "help." This isn't about helping others so much as dealing with them. And that's toxic in itself.
Narcissus liked to stare into his lacuna. So harm reduction might be digging more lacunae. With enough reflective surfaces, Narcissus might have a "normal" life.
I've experienced environments where everyone constantly gets praise for the least little aspect of existing.
[+] [-] vcryan|3 years ago|reply
From my experience, the narcissist suffered some traumatic event, probably in ~early childhood, and somehow it caused them to become maladapted in the way they perceive the world and their role in it. I don't believe narcissism is caused by culture/society. Although, it anecdotally, I wonder if there is also a genetic factor.
Regardless of the cause, the person and their behavior are irrevocably damaged and the only way of dealing with them is not feeding them. Maintain extreme neutrality and disinterest and stay as far away as you can. All they do is harm, and they have no capability of ever taking accountability, it is simply beyond their comprehension. If you suggest that there is an issue, you will quickly find out that you are the issue, and the narcissist will get hard at work taking you apart, piece by piece, until there is nothing left of you.
[+] [-] Melatonic|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimkleiber|3 years ago|reply
In lieu of that, when I hear someone claim someone else is a narcissist, I mostly just assume the person claiming that feels very hurt or angry by something that other person did.
[+] [-] ButterWashed|3 years ago|reply
I can't imagine this will ever change. How do you encourage someone who seeks the admiration of others at all costs to simply stop? Without a shred of evidence, I'm sure the increased use of social media is at least partially to blame.
[+] [-] prepend|3 years ago|reply
I don’t know if it’s ultimatum worthy, but this is a really curious behavior to me. Tap water in almost all of the US is healthy and fine. So not drinking tap water is as queer to me as not wearing any clothes that weren’t professionally cleaned.
I’ve heard from people that they don’t like the taste of tap water. But if one lives in an area for a few weeks the taste is acquired.
[+] [-] UnpossibleJim|3 years ago|reply
This might be my favorite quote I've ever read. It reads of pulp fiction and I love it. I know I'll get downvoted, but I can't believe that Paris can be worse than any other major urban center like New York, L.A., Milan or Quebec.
[+] [-] jrm4|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atq2119|3 years ago|reply
Having a dozen academic degrees is not impressive even if true. If true, it would be a warning sign that the person isn't able to move on to something deeper and more meaningful than degrees.
[+] [-] quadcore|3 years ago|reply
Farms and factories used to employ a lot of people. It was the default job back in the day. So we have two things, 1) it was difficult to get out, especially when you do things superficially and 2), well then, being a "body person" (think muscles) was more trendy than being a "brain person" (think nerd). I dont think the nerds are mocked at schools anymore, I think they are the stars (though its actually conjecture, Id love to verify that).
So yeah, more people out of guetto lives (one might say not the best on average, if you'd forgive me the shortcut here) and the need to look smart socially. Boom psycho crisis.
As a sidenote, same thing happened with the web, it used to be a nerd-with-glass thing (many wouldn't even want to be seen with a computer), you had to have a computer which was expensive and useless for your say, average factory worker.
Now what can we do? Teach children basic psychology, yoga and buddhism maybe? We got to do something because thats a lot of people on the brain market now and thats not gonna end well :)