I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance.
I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure.
The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is true, but also true is being able to supply materials. I would rarely supply construction timber, because either the main contractor or even the client could buy it themselves for the same price. Whereas a plumber would always supply a boiler, a tank, a bathroom...all with tasty discounts that were not available to the public.
The other big change I saw was the nailgun and chopsaw revolution. All of a sudden some ex-labourer was touting a nailgun and was now a carpenter. Nobody seemed to care that they didn't know what they were doing. We started to find we would be called in to do the roof and then some clown who was 'cheaper' was called in to do the rest.
My apprenticship was 3 years with day release to technical college. That day was a complete joke, the college was disorganised, and underfunded.
I have constant pain in my hands, back and knees for my 10 years. Everywhere I go I see bad carpentry, and nobody cares but me.
> The other big change I saw was the nailgun and chopsaw revolution
This.
I hired a union shop to build my house, and am thankful for it. for various reasons, construction is mostly lowest quality possible, but everybody on my house had a ticket and the result is obvious (not just appearance but lower cost of maintenance).
When I worked at Terrajoule we were not a union shop but we often hired union contractors for specific jobs (particular high pressure welds) or temporary extra manpower — after a couple of terrible experiences, it was clear that union people always knew what they were doing.
My experience with shorter versus longer jobs, in the tech industry, consulting a few years back:
- 30-60 minute consultations, I need to charge $600/hour minimum to make ends meet
- 1-2 week gigs, I need to charge $300/hour minimum to make ends meet
- 6-36 month gigs, I need to charge $100/hour minimum to make ends meet
Making ends meet means covering mortgage, health care, etc., not having a decent lifestyle. There is overhead to:
- Finding clients
- Billing
- Cancellations
- Marketing
- Commuting
- Networking
- Contracts / legal
Etc. All of that overhead goes down with longer jobs. I don't feel that "longer jobs" are the root culprit here. If I were to guess, the root problem is that anyone can do carpentry (poorly). That sets low expectations on prices. That keeps better tradespeople out, since you can make so much more in any of the other trades.
I care! I never worked in trade, but perhaps I have an obsessive personality and like it when things are done properly. When I moved to the UK a few years ago, one of the first things I noticed is the appalling quality of work that the construction industry puts out in the UK. It is truly shocking. Everything is just “that’ll do”. It is very difficult to find a true craftsman these days, even if you are willing to pay for it.
I want people in trade to earn a very good wage. It is difficult labour that requires a lot of practice and experience to do well. Unfortunately, the entire industry today seems to be drowned out by construction “sweatshops”. It’s sad.
"I have constant pain in my hands, back and knees for my 10 years."
There are a bunch of industries out there where the pay is horrid and the skills required are high. EG: butcher, carpenter, chief, school teacher, most retail, auto mechanic, etc. I would want a high price for "knees".
My parents met when they were both working construction. My mom was a surveyor and a laborer at various times; she helped get my dad into the union (Philly) and he was a carpenter. My mom stopped it to raise me and my sibling; my dad did it until it entirely broke his body. (I would not be writing this as a college-educated adult if he hadn't had a union pension that kicked in on disability.)
I know precisely one person my age who's working construction and he knows he's got to get out before it does the same to him. If most of the people you know work office jobs you may not be familiar with just how routine and severe those "injuries" are that they mention. All the cultural factors are real too -- hoo BOY my mom has stories -- but you gotta look at this stuff through how physically destructive it is to the workers.
(I'm sure there's a health care angle too, of course -- so much of my parents' compensation went to those "Cadillac" health care plans that politicians don't understand the point of. It'd be interesting to compare Canada)
Like every other profession with a supposed shortage the pay and work conditions suck. And guess what shortage…
It’s like there is a shortage of people willing to pick fruit at 10$ an hour and live in terrible conditions while exposed to harsh chemicals. No shit you need to pay people a whole lot more money
The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity (with a fair amount of help from globalization efforts). Until the scales tip (and there are signs we’re headed there) and labor has more power with stronger unions, people should not expect workers to take garbage jobs (even in trades when they’re non union) because of manufactured shortages or crises. There is no labor shortage, only a shortage of workers willing to take undesirable work for unreasonable compensation. Luckily (?), as labor force participation continues to decline (10k Boomers retire each day) and there isn’t an appetite to ramp immigration, labor supply constraints will continue to push up wages (but is not a long term solution for broad scale productivity equity participation versus labor organization).
> The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity
This is a really lazy analysis that ignores all of the productivity gains that came from automation and information technology. People who put together cars didn’t start making less money, they got replaced by robots.
What would carpentry work have to pay before the demand is satisfied? It is my view that many people don't want to do trades at any reasonable rate. I would imagine most people my age would rather make $60k a year answering emails and doing zoom meetings than $120k going to a jobsite early every morning in any weather all year long.
Ha. I joined the Navy in the 90s and when I got out I tried to get into auto mechanic school. They wanted me to sign up for an apprenticeship at a car dealership and were happy to take my tuition money. But no one would allow me (female) to apprentice. They would say "sure...wait a bit for a start date" then I would call to ask when to come in and they would always have given the spot to a male student.
Even after getting into the IT field, I tried to learn carpentry. I went to local shops that had the tools. No one was receptive to me for some reason. They were either closed during the times I could go after work, or defunct, or only wanted people who already knew carpentry (WTF).
Anyway, I entered software development because it was the only field that would hire me entry level. Aaaaaandd the only field I could actually self-teach. I am grateful for that fact...that you can teach yourself through books (back then no StackOverflow haha) nor Youtube, nor Udemy, etc. Just plain push yourself through the text books available. I spent a LOT of time at Borders books and Barnes and Noble, trying to figure things out.
You can't really do that with carpentry. Maybe you can self-teach auto repair. But as a woman, not even my family members would spend time to teach me (I had a cousin that was embarrassed to have me help out at his auto shop).
I got away with self-teaching IT as a black woman because it is not nearly as sexist or racist as other fields, with Indian and other immigrants showing the way to enlightenment to a great degree (in my personal experience).
My great-grandfather and uncle (retired) were carpenters. While carpentry is a great hobby they definitely preferred/liked my professional direction -- at some point lungs, legs, hands, and wood do not like each other.
I would say this is not just a problem in the US. In France there is the same problem. The wages just aren't worth it for this kind of hard work.
A good carpenter I knew a while back was making maybe at best 2500 euros per month with overtime after tax with more than 10 years of experience.
Despite being a team leader he still had to lift, bend and work just like his subordinates. You could tell that it was starting to take a toll on his body.
The job is tough, when its cold in winter and you stand on a ladder and its raining and your fingers are frozen, you have to keep going. In summer, you are on a roof and is 35 degrees Celsius outside and there is no shade.
One misstep and you can fall down, but you have to keep going to be productive. So sometimes you bend the rules a little. Then you hurt yourself.
There is also more and more drug and substance abuse in the trades. You take some painkillers at night because your joints hurt. You take blow because you can work faster and longer.
Drinking on the job is also well tolerated.
In truth this is a young man's game.
My dad has been in the construction trade on and off for the last 30 years and his body is starting to give up. I myself was a laborer before joining the tech world. I injured my knee on the job and now every once in while I have pain so I have to be careful to not run or walk too quickly otherwise it flares up.
I think construction workers should be closely monitored for physical injuries and be told the truth about their job and the toll it will eventually take on their bodies. Some people think they are invincible.
My dad knew this guy in his twenties(20 years ago) who thought he was the toughest of all. Carrying heavy stuff day in and out, climbing on ladders with a heavy load on his back and shoulders.
The last time I saw him a few years ago(he is know in his forties), he was a broken man and wearing some sort of back support at all times because his back is in shambles. Obviously he doesn't work in the trades anymore.
Similar story. My dad was a carpenter doing wood frame construction in southern California. He later got his contractor's license - better money and less physical labor but he still did some construction. I worked summers as a laborer for him when I was in high school. I never got injured but he had injuries now and then. The one that did him in was a fall due to a broken rafter that broke his heel. He could never walk normally after that.
Even when he was young he told me to make money with my brain not my back. He would also tell me to look around at a job site and ask my why I thought there were no old roofers (falls), or painters (paint fumes), or plumbers (solder fumes).
Some of my high school friends got started in construction via my dad. It was good money and they were not the college-bound types. A few years later I heard one of my good buddies cut off his thumb with a Skilsaw. By now most of the others are probably broken down.
Thank you to share these experiences. Real question: You wrote: <<Drinking on the job is also well tolerated.>> Is this "having fun" drinking or "reduce the pain" drinking? Either way, I can see how alcohol could increase risk on a construction site.
Because the pay is too low for the required labor. Court dismissed, bring in the dancing lobsters.
Also the way these pro-trade articles always frame college as some nebulous malignant force pulling people away from necessary, "good-paying" trades is a laugh. As if people who have the option to bring home electrical engineer wages and work in an air-conditioned office would choose to become an electrician instead. There will be some small handful, but the incentives push strongly towards one over the other.
You think everyone can be an electrical engineer? Or even wants to be an electrical engineer?
If you look at when the trades start earning and if they are willing to go where the high pay is (just like some CS guy won’t make FAANG wages in Ohio), they can do very well.
My father was a independent carpenter and it took a toll on him. He had to do it if he was going to be able to get by while young and still living with his parents (my grandfather was also a carpenter.) It was a life of toil: plenty of injuries, probably maybe preventable if he managed safety a bit, lost fingers in an table saw accident (while working in construction during the late 60s on new NYC housing project development.) He never wanted me to do the work he did nor ever take on the lifestyle he did, unlike what was forced on him and loved to see that I had a strong interest in computer programming, thinking I would be a millionaire by the time I was 30 (didn't happen :) ) My brother went into a trade, but not into carpentry.
The only time I was required to do anything carpentry-related was during summers because he thought (rightfully) I would just sit around and do nothing. I never felt cut out for it - it was very hard work that requires patience and strong will, besides physical strength and if I think one is not careful, it will catch up to one's self, like it did with my father.
I like that you mention patience. Carpentry takes patience, you need to pace yourself, and you need to adopt safety behaviors, that will get you through the day. If I watch my family work, they all do things slowly and paced. “Measure twice, cut once.”
If this is a real labor shortage, it's possible to do a lot more pre-cutting and just assemble on site. 120 years ago, Sears sold entire pre-cut house kits. Good ones. Some are still in use.[1] There are kit homes today from many sources.
All these professionals from vocational fields are horribly expensive in America. And then there are articles like these claiming they don't make money. BS. America has no public/private vocational school/training culture. People don't even teach each other unless you are born into the family of craftsman.
Yeah in the north east, carpenters with good reputations (they reliably show up, work to code, can think) make 6-figures easily. There’s no end to the work and they can pick and choose.
The price to do a renovation or build out here has gone through the roof with labor and materials becoming expensive.
Which is weird. Germany is full of vocational schools where everyone who wants to, young and old can learn various trades for cheap/free and yet labor is still expensive.
A few other things that weren't mentioned in the article:
As others in the comments have noted, there's no barrier to relatively unskilled people calling themselves 'carpenters', which drives down wages. This is much less of a factor with plumbing, electrical, HVAC etc.
Like all tradespeople, you ultimately need to own 5 figures worth of specialized tools, which makes the low wages even more pernicious
The construction industry is famously boom & bust/based on economic cycles, which obviously doesn't help anyone's job security
'Carpentry' is a very broad category (to my understanding on the West Coast they have a firmer delineation between frame & finish carpenters), but if you include framing and roofing, it's much more physical than plumbing or electrical work. Ultimately this is much tougher on your body over the decades
You can make a living as a carpenter, and the work is often glorious, but like lots of industries wealth is often built on the exploitation of labor. Unions have been gutted over the last 100 years, so if you want to run an honest business and earn a good income you need to do high-end work.
But who are you working for? The upper classes. Of course these lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc. are not specifically to blame, many are kind and decent human beings. But we're all living in the same system, and to put it in HN terms, we need to wipe and reinstall the OS.
Seeing more women in the trade (seems like a lot more in the last five years) does give me some sense of a positive change. As far as I can tell contractors are still quite ethnically/racially segregated though.
I remember watching a presentation on a high-end woodworker who just happened to be the son of a celebrity. He was working quite a bit with vacuum formed pieces that would sell for several thousand dollars in the 90s, with enough capital outlay from his father's money that he could build a dozen or so items at a time. It was then that I realized that the ability to make a living from crafting high-quality, modern furniture was probably a pipe dream for me simply because it would take me decades to gather the resources that this guy got for free, and by that time I'd be decades behind in relevant experience.
Another part of it is the social programming. If you're an uneducated poor white male, it's easy to see a path into construction. If you're an uneducated poor black male, going into construction might as well be becoming an astronaut. Or to flip that around, imagine being an uneducated poor white male in Cleveland, Ohio and suddenly believing you could easily be a successful rapper. If your family, friends, neighborhood, media, etc don't show a clear path towards that role, you're not gonna seek it out, even without all the other barriers.
Cities/specialization is a luxury. The trade off is relationship to reality. People who build tangible things with their hands are relatively more grounded in reality.
When you pull the elephant's trunk, either the light comes on, or it doesn't. There is little room for delusion.
The more people who can and do use an "app for that" in their daily lives, and are hours away from whatever they need/want, the fewer tradesman there likely will be.
The pendulum swinging back in the direction of builders is when all the specialists have to bid against each other, exchanging an acceptable medium of exchange, for the tradesman's services, as they can do little themselves.
The more densely populated the area, the more likely it will seem there are a shortage of carpenters, or other tradesman, and in the more rural, free, and independent , areas, the less the need for carpenters, as there are fewer specialists, and more capable, "Jack of all trades", types.
Btw, the article quotes this man (Ethan James, from the "Honest Carpenter" YouTube channel). I was going to link the same video, because I watched that last year as well.
I don’t know who did the research on this, or maybe I just live in an insanely expensive area, but the 2021 hourly rate for plumbers and electrician’s is laughable. The chart shows roughly $30 an hour. I can’t find one for under $100 in my are to save my life, most charge $150-$200 per man hour.
For people thinking "pre-fab"/automation is "the answer" to this shortage, I recommend reviewing Brian Potter's blog, Construction Physics.[1]
It ain't so simple. Building sites vary a lot, even in the same neighbourhood. Buildings are very complex, and individuated to meet customer demands. Crucially they are low value per unit mass, so transport starts costing more than on-site construction after two hundred kilometres/miles or so. There are multiple morasses of regulations and regulators.
According to this, it seems the skilled trades have a similar problem to medicine, where there is/was apparently a shortage of primary care doctors: people enter specialties that pay more.
The other part of the story I think is that we fetishized the 4-year undergraduate degree and de-emphasized trade schools over the last 30 years. They touch on this in the article:
“And many former paths have closed. In Seattle, Smith notes, 17 public high schools once had wood shop classes, a number that shrunk to 3.”
Curiously enough, this change in policy occurred around the same time a de-industrialization in the US (in the wake of NAFTA, normalizing trade relations with China, etc.).
I started as a helper in the summers for a small HVAC company. I stayed in the business for 7ish years, eventually getting my state of Texas HVAC contractor's license. After graduating college, I got out of HVAC and moved into controls which wound up taking me across the world. I got tired of the field and moved into product management.
The toll that construction takes is real. I have too many scars from sheet metal cuts to count; burns; exposure to asbestos, phosgene, and benzene; heat stroke; electrocutions; falls from ladders; etc. My boss previously broke his back after falling through a ceiling. I've been on sites where people cut off multiple fingers in stupid accidents, have nearly died, or have fallen to their death. I'm in my late 30's and have been diagnosed with hearing loss which I attribute to working around heavy equipment and construction sites.
[+] [-] jimnotgym|3 years ago|reply
I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure.
The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is true, but also true is being able to supply materials. I would rarely supply construction timber, because either the main contractor or even the client could buy it themselves for the same price. Whereas a plumber would always supply a boiler, a tank, a bathroom...all with tasty discounts that were not available to the public.
The other big change I saw was the nailgun and chopsaw revolution. All of a sudden some ex-labourer was touting a nailgun and was now a carpenter. Nobody seemed to care that they didn't know what they were doing. We started to find we would be called in to do the roof and then some clown who was 'cheaper' was called in to do the rest.
My apprenticship was 3 years with day release to technical college. That day was a complete joke, the college was disorganised, and underfunded.
I have constant pain in my hands, back and knees for my 10 years. Everywhere I go I see bad carpentry, and nobody cares but me.
AMA
Edit: I'm in the UK
[+] [-] gumby|3 years ago|reply
This.
I hired a union shop to build my house, and am thankful for it. for various reasons, construction is mostly lowest quality possible, but everybody on my house had a ticket and the result is obvious (not just appearance but lower cost of maintenance).
When I worked at Terrajoule we were not a union shop but we often hired union contractors for specific jobs (particular high pressure welds) or temporary extra manpower — after a couple of terrible experiences, it was clear that union people always knew what they were doing.
[+] [-] blagie|3 years ago|reply
- 30-60 minute consultations, I need to charge $600/hour minimum to make ends meet
- 1-2 week gigs, I need to charge $300/hour minimum to make ends meet
- 6-36 month gigs, I need to charge $100/hour minimum to make ends meet
Making ends meet means covering mortgage, health care, etc., not having a decent lifestyle. There is overhead to:
- Finding clients
- Billing
- Cancellations
- Marketing
- Commuting
- Networking
- Contracts / legal
Etc. All of that overhead goes down with longer jobs. I don't feel that "longer jobs" are the root culprit here. If I were to guess, the root problem is that anyone can do carpentry (poorly). That sets low expectations on prices. That keeps better tradespeople out, since you can make so much more in any of the other trades.
[+] [-] short_sells_poo|3 years ago|reply
I want people in trade to earn a very good wage. It is difficult labour that requires a lot of practice and experience to do well. Unfortunately, the entire industry today seems to be drowned out by construction “sweatshops”. It’s sad.
[+] [-] fredgrott|3 years ago|reply
In the USA and several other places the way from unskilled to skilled was via carpenter as you could enter the field unskilled.
My father went from truck driver to carpenter after a truck driver strike.
And due to that there was always money loosing cycles occurring when it was easy to get in and an over supply of those wanting to get in.
What some did was step up to furniture finishing such as kitchen cabinets, bars, etc.
[+] [-] ransom1538|3 years ago|reply
There are a bunch of industries out there where the pay is horrid and the skills required are high. EG: butcher, carpenter, chief, school teacher, most retail, auto mechanic, etc. I would want a high price for "knees".
[+] [-] deepsun|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kixiQu|3 years ago|reply
I know precisely one person my age who's working construction and he knows he's got to get out before it does the same to him. If most of the people you know work office jobs you may not be familiar with just how routine and severe those "injuries" are that they mention. All the cultural factors are real too -- hoo BOY my mom has stories -- but you gotta look at this stuff through how physically destructive it is to the workers.
(I'm sure there's a health care angle too, of course -- so much of my parents' compensation went to those "Cadillac" health care plans that politicians don't understand the point of. It'd be interesting to compare Canada)
[+] [-] rdtwo|3 years ago|reply
It’s like there is a shortage of people willing to pick fruit at 10$ an hour and live in terrible conditions while exposed to harsh chemicals. No shit you need to pay people a whole lot more money
[+] [-] toomuchtodo|3 years ago|reply
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/09/labor-day-chart-union-mem...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_productivity_and_...
https://www.epi.org/publication/how-todays-unions-help-worki...
[+] [-] kortilla|3 years ago|reply
This is a really lazy analysis that ignores all of the productivity gains that came from automation and information technology. People who put together cars didn’t start making less money, they got replaced by robots.
[+] [-] missedthecue|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fasteddie31003|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blackgirldev|3 years ago|reply
Even after getting into the IT field, I tried to learn carpentry. I went to local shops that had the tools. No one was receptive to me for some reason. They were either closed during the times I could go after work, or defunct, or only wanted people who already knew carpentry (WTF).
Anyway, I entered software development because it was the only field that would hire me entry level. Aaaaaandd the only field I could actually self-teach. I am grateful for that fact...that you can teach yourself through books (back then no StackOverflow haha) nor Youtube, nor Udemy, etc. Just plain push yourself through the text books available. I spent a LOT of time at Borders books and Barnes and Noble, trying to figure things out.
You can't really do that with carpentry. Maybe you can self-teach auto repair. But as a woman, not even my family members would spend time to teach me (I had a cousin that was embarrassed to have me help out at his auto shop).
I got away with self-teaching IT as a black woman because it is not nearly as sexist or racist as other fields, with Indian and other immigrants showing the way to enlightenment to a great degree (in my personal experience).
[+] [-] eftychis|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ygg2|3 years ago|reply
And I hate printers.
[+] [-] trinovantes|3 years ago|reply
http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650...
[+] [-] thfuran|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] melony|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quickthrower2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdm_blackhole|3 years ago|reply
A good carpenter I knew a while back was making maybe at best 2500 euros per month with overtime after tax with more than 10 years of experience.
Despite being a team leader he still had to lift, bend and work just like his subordinates. You could tell that it was starting to take a toll on his body.
The job is tough, when its cold in winter and you stand on a ladder and its raining and your fingers are frozen, you have to keep going. In summer, you are on a roof and is 35 degrees Celsius outside and there is no shade.
One misstep and you can fall down, but you have to keep going to be productive. So sometimes you bend the rules a little. Then you hurt yourself.
There is also more and more drug and substance abuse in the trades. You take some painkillers at night because your joints hurt. You take blow because you can work faster and longer. Drinking on the job is also well tolerated.
In truth this is a young man's game.
My dad has been in the construction trade on and off for the last 30 years and his body is starting to give up. I myself was a laborer before joining the tech world. I injured my knee on the job and now every once in while I have pain so I have to be careful to not run or walk too quickly otherwise it flares up.
I think construction workers should be closely monitored for physical injuries and be told the truth about their job and the toll it will eventually take on their bodies. Some people think they are invincible.
My dad knew this guy in his twenties(20 years ago) who thought he was the toughest of all. Carrying heavy stuff day in and out, climbing on ladders with a heavy load on his back and shoulders.
The last time I saw him a few years ago(he is know in his forties), he was a broken man and wearing some sort of back support at all times because his back is in shambles. Obviously he doesn't work in the trades anymore.
[+] [-] geomark|3 years ago|reply
Even when he was young he told me to make money with my brain not my back. He would also tell me to look around at a job site and ask my why I thought there were no old roofers (falls), or painters (paint fumes), or plumbers (solder fumes).
Some of my high school friends got started in construction via my dad. It was good money and they were not the college-bound types. A few years later I heard one of my good buddies cut off his thumb with a Skilsaw. By now most of the others are probably broken down.
[+] [-] throwaway2037|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nickelpro|3 years ago|reply
Also the way these pro-trade articles always frame college as some nebulous malignant force pulling people away from necessary, "good-paying" trades is a laugh. As if people who have the option to bring home electrical engineer wages and work in an air-conditioned office would choose to become an electrician instead. There will be some small handful, but the incentives push strongly towards one over the other.
[+] [-] refurb|3 years ago|reply
If you look at when the trades start earning and if they are willing to go where the high pay is (just like some CS guy won’t make FAANG wages in Ohio), they can do very well.
[+] [-] bigpeopleareold|3 years ago|reply
The only time I was required to do anything carpentry-related was during summers because he thought (rightfully) I would just sit around and do nothing. I never felt cut out for it - it was very hard work that requires patience and strong will, besides physical strength and if I think one is not careful, it will catch up to one's self, like it did with my father.
[+] [-] prox|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://searshomes.org/index.php/2012/07/10/the-columbine-th...
[+] [-] webwanderings|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nemo44x|3 years ago|reply
The price to do a renovation or build out here has gone through the roof with labor and materials becoming expensive.
[+] [-] ChuckNorris89|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hash872|3 years ago|reply
As others in the comments have noted, there's no barrier to relatively unskilled people calling themselves 'carpenters', which drives down wages. This is much less of a factor with plumbing, electrical, HVAC etc.
Like all tradespeople, you ultimately need to own 5 figures worth of specialized tools, which makes the low wages even more pernicious
The construction industry is famously boom & bust/based on economic cycles, which obviously doesn't help anyone's job security
'Carpentry' is a very broad category (to my understanding on the West Coast they have a firmer delineation between frame & finish carpenters), but if you include framing and roofing, it's much more physical than plumbing or electrical work. Ultimately this is much tougher on your body over the decades
[+] [-] georgeoliver|3 years ago|reply
But who are you working for? The upper classes. Of course these lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc. are not specifically to blame, many are kind and decent human beings. But we're all living in the same system, and to put it in HN terms, we need to wipe and reinstall the OS.
Seeing more women in the trade (seems like a lot more in the last five years) does give me some sense of a positive change. As far as I can tell contractors are still quite ethnically/racially segregated though.
[+] [-] MisterBastahrd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] waynecochran|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steve76|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] throwaway892238|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] hitovst|3 years ago|reply
When you pull the elephant's trunk, either the light comes on, or it doesn't. There is little room for delusion.
The more people who can and do use an "app for that" in their daily lives, and are hours away from whatever they need/want, the fewer tradesman there likely will be.
The pendulum swinging back in the direction of builders is when all the specialists have to bid against each other, exchanging an acceptable medium of exchange, for the tradesman's services, as they can do little themselves.
The more densely populated the area, the more likely it will seem there are a shortage of carpenters, or other tradesman, and in the more rural, free, and independent , areas, the less the need for carpenters, as there are fewer specialists, and more capable, "Jack of all trades", types.
[+] [-] hemloc_io|3 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/xP0egqOivKc
[+] [-] kyrra|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hitpointdrew|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tuatoru|3 years ago|reply
It ain't so simple. Building sites vary a lot, even in the same neighbourhood. Buildings are very complex, and individuated to meet customer demands. Crucially they are low value per unit mass, so transport starts costing more than on-site construction after two hundred kilometres/miles or so. There are multiple morasses of regulations and regulators.
1. https://constructionphysics.substack.com/
[+] [-] avidphantasm|3 years ago|reply
The other part of the story I think is that we fetishized the 4-year undergraduate degree and de-emphasized trade schools over the last 30 years. They touch on this in the article:
“And many former paths have closed. In Seattle, Smith notes, 17 public high schools once had wood shop classes, a number that shrunk to 3.”
Curiously enough, this change in policy occurred around the same time a de-industrialization in the US (in the wake of NAFTA, normalizing trade relations with China, etc.).
[+] [-] c_o_n_v_e_x|3 years ago|reply
The toll that construction takes is real. I have too many scars from sheet metal cuts to count; burns; exposure to asbestos, phosgene, and benzene; heat stroke; electrocutions; falls from ladders; etc. My boss previously broke his back after falling through a ceiling. I've been on sites where people cut off multiple fingers in stupid accidents, have nearly died, or have fallen to their death. I'm in my late 30's and have been diagnosed with hearing loss which I attribute to working around heavy equipment and construction sites.