This is interesting. I've been involved in home automation for about 15 years now, and HVAC controls are one of the top things to control in most systens.
Occupancy sensing is also extremely difficult to do passively in any kind of reliable scenario, especially when your occupancy sensor is limited to a single location in the house.
I've frequently seen two broad categories around regulating HVAC systems:
1) People keep a fairly regular schedule, and a standard 7-day programmable thermostat works sufficiently.
2) People keep a very non-regular schedule, and a standard programmable thermostat doesn't work, nor is there any inferable pattern to their home/away schedule.
In case #2, it is usually more beneficial to get home/away status from something with a more direct output eg: a burglar alarm system, vehicle presence detectors in the garage (photobeams), status of lights, etc.
I'll be very curious to see what the real-world reactions are to the Nest thermostat. If they can come up with some truly creative solutions it could be a really cool device.
Why not setup a system that detects the presence of your Bluetooth phone? Perhaps even look for your phone on the wireless network if a sensitive detector is not sufficient?
It would not be a stretch at that point to have a simple website served from the device that let you see the history and choose some basic night/day setback points.
It takes some time to raise/lower the temperature of the house depending on the outside temperature so learning the rate at which the house warms/cools is required to reach the desired set point at the requested time. Including the local weather forecast as a sensor and being able to see a graph of temps and system demand cycles would be really nice.
From what's on the website it looks like they're trying to learn largely from user feedback of the "I wanted it cooler/hotter" variety. Agree that this will be a problem in case #2, without good occupancy sensing, because the prediction problem is inherently impossible to do well with only time-of-day-and-week if there isn't much regularity.
I would guess the real target audience is people who fall into #1 but never get around to programming their thermostat, and maybe don't even have an accurate self-assessment of their home/away or sleep/wake patterns. In particularly warm or cold climates this might also include people who make wrong guesses about latency, e.g. how early before they return the heater needs to kick on for it to be comfortable by the time they get home. I could see it being useful in that case: there's a regular enough pattern to infer a reliable heating/cooling schedule, but the person doesn't want to, or isn't able to manually program that pattern.
That's why I like my OmniStat with my OmniPro security/automation system, it can change temp based on security system state (away, night, etc.) And if you still wanted occupancy based learning, it can be done with your security interior motions and Omni programming.
Also the Haiku iPhone app for my Omni just added changing flags in the OmniPro based on iPhone location triggers, this would allow proximity tstat changes if you really wanted that.
It would be great if this also supported Z-Wave, Insteon or ZigBee. Z-Wave would probably be more advisable since ADT and a few others are jumping on the Z-Wave protocol.
Please put something on your website that I can read. I do not want to watch a video, and that's all you have, so now I will never learn about your product.
Please don't put a ream of text on your landing page that I have to read in order to learn about your product. I'm a visual person, and the web has not been a text-only medium for quite some time now. Something like a video, relevant pictures, and big bold text will do just fine thanks.
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here. This is actually what I prefer, and I think they did a good job.
I also hate sites where the only information is offered through a video and I would like to have readable information as close to the landing page as possible, preferably on it.
It turns out that Nest doesn't have it smack dab on the landing page, but you just need to make the logical (to me) choice of clicking on the "Meet the Nest Learning Thermostat" link and the information is there. Scroll down at your leisure and skim through the text and the illustrations. It's not even one of those annoying PowerPoint-like presentations; you just need to scroll down.
This also applies to programming screencasts and slides which are becoming more and more prevalent. I guess it works for some people but when I look at code I like to skim and use ctrl-F...
Also, when I do watch the video, at least give me a hint of how your product works and what it does. Don't bullshit me with things like "XXX never stops learning" or "XXX saves energy" during the whole video.
In this case it might be justified. The guy is trying to convince you to buy their design, really. How would they entice you into buying a thermostat with words? It would be really difficult.
If you cared to look for more than 5 seconds, the "Our Thermostat" link at the top of the page takes you to a nice page all about the Nest with just text/images.
Pure genius! Just one thing, anyone upgrading from an old mercury switch thermostat will be left with a mercury waste disposal problem. Properly disposing of these can be a real hassle and some not-so-environmentally responsible customers are likely to just chuck them in the trash. Nest could raise the bar of their environmental responsibility another notch by including a postage-paid mailer and some bubble wrap to return your old thermostat to them for proper disposal.
In addition to being a touch screen it has hard buttons labeled: PROG, MENU, MODE, FAN, and SAVE ENERGY
It is a total disaster. When I went away for vacation this summer I wanted to turn off the daily program and hold at a max of 85. Instead I put it into winter hold mode and it maintained a chilly 62 for the entire week I was away. The WiFi link failed the first day I was away for some reason and the iPhone app happily reported the last temperature it had received as current so I had no hint there was any trouble.
A learning toaster that can find the sweet spot between warm bread and coal. Works if I've put in frozen bread or bread from fridge or bread from the bread bin.
It isn't going to change the world or revolutionize home automation it's just going to be another "subzero" or "commercial range" as seen on Househunters: Tahoe.
The issue with programmable thermostats is that they are not about temperature but comfort, and comfort is affected by what you have been doing and what you are wearing than a few degrees of setting on the thermostat.
It's the exceptions that make programmable thermostats problematic - the day you get home early from work and the house is 82 F and high humidity in July, or when you are home with the flu and the heat is off...neither is worth $10 a month of possible savings.
We have a non-programmable digital thermostat. It simply has a button with a "$" which bumps the temperature a few degrees toward energy savings based on a user setting.
The bulk of our energy savings since the install probably comes from the fact that the temperature is set digitally rather than with an analog resister - so we tend to adjust the temperature more conservatively and less often.
Yeah, $249 is way too much. I'd be pressed to spend more than $30 on a thermostat when the one I have works good enough. Programming my current one is like pulling teeth, but I only do it once a year or so (if that).
I keep it low and don't have A/C. If I'm hot I'll change into shorts, and if I'm cold I'll put on a sweater.
Some readers complained about the content of the website, I think they are missing the point.
Most people aren't HN minded, they are not really into how Nest learn about your Energy needs. They just want simple and short content that explain in basic words. Nice looking design will give them confidence that this thing works really well.
The Website and the product are very well designed, and this is something that is not quite common in such products. It's really well designed.
27. Hardware/software hybrids. Most hackers find hardware
projects alarming. You have to deal with messy, expensive
physical stuff. ...
There's a lot of low-hanging fruit in hardware; you can
often do dramatically new things by making comparatively
small tweaks to existing stuff.
While Nest doesn't fall in the young startup category, Next is still a great example of what you can do with hardware and software, where "the software plays a very visible role." The design speaks for itself, but the magic is in the software---meaning whatever tricks they pulled from AI, machine learning, control theory or other fields.
Of course, "small tweaks" might not be the best way to describe it from the hackers POV, but it makes sense if you're using this device.
If one wants to build stuff like that -- I wonder - how do you do the low-tech stuff (the hardware that is not electronics but the plastics/aluminium shell, glass, etc.)? What skills/tools are required to actually create that? How do you get started if you can't afford mass-production at the beginning?
Here's a quick list of some other folks taking a swing at the Internet-enabled thermostat space: EnergyHub, EcoFactor, Proliphix, EcoBee, Inthrma, Suntulit, and GE's "nucleus."
Nest clearly has some cool differentiating features like "time to temp" and some interesting learning / AI technology. If it delivers on claims of 20% energy savings and they can bring the price down (that must be the plan, I'm sure) I can imagine it being broadly adopted. The challenge with thermostats is there are a few different wiring standards, so you often do need a third party to help you, which introduces a pretty big barrier to adoption. They also seem to have a strategy to lower that barrier, which is cool.
As someone who's been in the energy space for over two years now, I'm excited that Nest is bringing some much needed consumer attention our way, and I'm excited to try Nest!
Here's what I don't get -- why have the display to begin with? Why can't the whole thing be programmable via API/Web/Mobile App/Watch/Whatever.
Ideally that's what I'd like -- some kind of intelligent device that lives inside of my house that connects to my boiler and AC unit, as well as other major appliances if possible and provides an open API for people to build on top of, and can connect to my router.
If someone wants to make a thermostat that looks like Nest, then, it could be something that you just stick to the wall but requires no direct wiring. But it also means that I never need to buy a new thermostat: if I get tired of the Nest, I can switch it like I can any other app. Or just keep it controlled from my phone or tablet or the web.
My guess is that many consumers have replaced thermostats before and have found the process fairly painless. Or, maybe they understand the idea of replacing one dingus on the wall for another. The idea of cutting wires in one's basement is much scarier. Your suggestion is quite rational but probably hurts sales.
I'm more impressed by the founding team (with KCB backing) than the product. Can this be the company that finally gives us the smart home we've been promised for decades? I can't imagine they intend to limit themselves to thermostats.
I wonder if they'll provide an API. Are any companies in this space taking a platform-oriented approach to their domestic gizmos? Someone needs to put my home on the command line.
[+] [-] brk|14 years ago|reply
Occupancy sensing is also extremely difficult to do passively in any kind of reliable scenario, especially when your occupancy sensor is limited to a single location in the house.
I've frequently seen two broad categories around regulating HVAC systems: 1) People keep a fairly regular schedule, and a standard 7-day programmable thermostat works sufficiently.
2) People keep a very non-regular schedule, and a standard programmable thermostat doesn't work, nor is there any inferable pattern to their home/away schedule.
In case #2, it is usually more beneficial to get home/away status from something with a more direct output eg: a burglar alarm system, vehicle presence detectors in the garage (photobeams), status of lights, etc.
I'll be very curious to see what the real-world reactions are to the Nest thermostat. If they can come up with some truly creative solutions it could be a really cool device.
[+] [-] iramiller|14 years ago|reply
It would not be a stretch at that point to have a simple website served from the device that let you see the history and choose some basic night/day setback points.
It takes some time to raise/lower the temperature of the house depending on the outside temperature so learning the rate at which the house warms/cools is required to reach the desired set point at the requested time. Including the local weather forecast as a sensor and being able to see a graph of temps and system demand cycles would be really nice.
[+] [-] _delirium|14 years ago|reply
I would guess the real target audience is people who fall into #1 but never get around to programming their thermostat, and maybe don't even have an accurate self-assessment of their home/away or sleep/wake patterns. In particularly warm or cold climates this might also include people who make wrong guesses about latency, e.g. how early before they return the heater needs to kick on for it to be comfortable by the time they get home. I could see it being useful in that case: there's a regular enough pattern to infer a reliable heating/cooling schedule, but the person doesn't want to, or isn't able to manually program that pattern.
[+] [-] SigmundA|14 years ago|reply
Also the Haiku iPhone app for my Omni just added changing flags in the OmniPro based on iPhone location triggers, this would allow proximity tstat changes if you really wanted that.
http://homeauto.com/Products/Omnistat/Omnistat2Products.asp
[+] [-] teyc|14 years ago|reply
ZigBee wireless sensors can be built rather cheaply if the intelligent components are centralized on the primary controller.
[+] [-] tomlin|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mentat|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jrockway|14 years ago|reply
Please put something on your website that I can read. I do not want to watch a video, and that's all you have, so now I will never learn about your product.
[+] [-] rapind|14 years ago|reply
Please don't put a ream of text on your landing page that I have to read in order to learn about your product. I'm a visual person, and the web has not been a text-only medium for quite some time now. Something like a video, relevant pictures, and big bold text will do just fine thanks.
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here. This is actually what I prefer, and I think they did a good job.
[+] [-] CodeMage|14 years ago|reply
It turns out that Nest doesn't have it smack dab on the landing page, but you just need to make the logical (to me) choice of clicking on the "Meet the Nest Learning Thermostat" link and the information is there. Scroll down at your leisure and skim through the text and the illustrations. It's not even one of those annoying PowerPoint-like presentations; you just need to scroll down.
I liked it, a lot.
[+] [-] wickedchicken|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] div|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joelthelion|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] electrichead|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nodata|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tichy|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eridius|14 years ago|reply
http://www.nest.com/living-with-nest/index.html
[+] [-] gcv|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] funkah|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bteitelb|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asmithmd1|14 years ago|reply
http://www.radiothermostat.com/filtrete/
In addition to being a touch screen it has hard buttons labeled: PROG, MENU, MODE, FAN, and SAVE ENERGY
It is a total disaster. When I went away for vacation this summer I wanted to turn off the daily program and hold at a max of 85. Instead I put it into winter hold mode and it maintained a chilly 62 for the entire week I was away. The WiFi link failed the first day I was away for some reason and the iPhone app happily reported the last temperature it had received as current so I had no hint there was any trouble.
[+] [-] div|14 years ago|reply
"Here's a plain everyday thing that everyone wants to ignore, let's make it a cherished item"
[+] [-] SandB0x|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jonnathanson|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nodata|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] palish|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nhebb|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brudgers|14 years ago|reply
It isn't going to change the world or revolutionize home automation it's just going to be another "subzero" or "commercial range" as seen on Househunters: Tahoe.
The issue with programmable thermostats is that they are not about temperature but comfort, and comfort is affected by what you have been doing and what you are wearing than a few degrees of setting on the thermostat.
It's the exceptions that make programmable thermostats problematic - the day you get home early from work and the house is 82 F and high humidity in July, or when you are home with the flu and the heat is off...neither is worth $10 a month of possible savings.
We have a non-programmable digital thermostat. It simply has a button with a "$" which bumps the temperature a few degrees toward energy savings based on a user setting.
[http://trane.com/Residential/Products/Thermostats/Non-Progra...]
The bulk of our energy savings since the install probably comes from the fact that the temperature is set digitally rather than with an analog resister - so we tend to adjust the temperature more conservatively and less often.
[+] [-] Splines|14 years ago|reply
I keep it low and don't have A/C. If I'm hot I'll change into shorts, and if I'm cold I'll put on a sweater.
[+] [-] joezydeco|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pivo|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] csomar|14 years ago|reply
Most people aren't HN minded, they are not really into how Nest learn about your Energy needs. They just want simple and short content that explain in basic words. Nice looking design will give them confidence that this thing works really well.
The Website and the product are very well designed, and this is something that is not quite common in such products. It's really well designed.
This page (http://www.nest.com/living-with-nest/index.html) explain in simple and basic sentences how the device will work out for you. Pretty simple, yet convincing.
Yes, it's missing the hacker part. But I doubt that people are interested in that. I actually wish that more businesses invest in such designs.
[+] [-] pjin|14 years ago|reply
Of course, "small tweaks" might not be the best way to describe it from the hackers POV, but it makes sense if you're using this device.
[+] [-] bprater|14 years ago|reply
Edit: Ah, created by an ex-Apple guy behind iPod and iPhone. No wonder it looks so damn slick.
TC link: http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/ipod-godfather-tony-fadell-...
[+] [-] mhb|14 years ago|reply
And costs $249.
[+] [-] haasted|14 years ago|reply
:)
[+] [-] quonn|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] delinka|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adolph|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zhyder|14 years ago|reply
1. Should get feedback for actual energy consumption from the meter.
2. Should allow installation of extra sensors that are wirelessly connected to the main unit, in case the main unit is far from the couch/bed.
[+] [-] savrajsingh|14 years ago|reply
Nest clearly has some cool differentiating features like "time to temp" and some interesting learning / AI technology. If it delivers on claims of 20% energy savings and they can bring the price down (that must be the plan, I'm sure) I can imagine it being broadly adopted. The challenge with thermostats is there are a few different wiring standards, so you often do need a third party to help you, which introduces a pretty big barrier to adoption. They also seem to have a strategy to lower that barrier, which is cool.
As someone who's been in the energy space for over two years now, I'm excited that Nest is bringing some much needed consumer attention our way, and I'm excited to try Nest!
[+] [-] ja2ke|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cjoh|14 years ago|reply
Ideally that's what I'd like -- some kind of intelligent device that lives inside of my house that connects to my boiler and AC unit, as well as other major appliances if possible and provides an open API for people to build on top of, and can connect to my router.
If someone wants to make a thermostat that looks like Nest, then, it could be something that you just stick to the wall but requires no direct wiring. But it also means that I never need to buy a new thermostat: if I get tired of the Nest, I can switch it like I can any other app. Or just keep it controlled from my phone or tablet or the web.
[+] [-] ShabbyDoo|14 years ago|reply
My guess is that many consumers have replaced thermostats before and have found the process fairly painless. Or, maybe they understand the idea of replacing one dingus on the wall for another. The idea of cutting wires in one's basement is much scarier. Your suggestion is quite rational but probably hurts sales.
[+] [-] Androsynth|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jayfuerstenberg|14 years ago|reply
Also I wouldn't be surprised if, like the iPod, it didn't come with a manual because it's so easy to use.
[+] [-] jrnkntl|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cantlin|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seasoup|14 years ago|reply
"Siri, what's the temperature at home?"
"Home is currently at 65 degrees."
"Siri, set home to 75 degrees."
"Temperature set to 75 degrees, it will take 15 minutes to reach this temperature."
[+] [-] jrockway|14 years ago|reply
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Orange?
Orange who?
Orange you glad you bought a Power Macintosh?
Oh sorry, I was amused at how Apple is marketing early 90s technology as amazing in 2011.