Surprised there’s no discussion on the price delta here - I could buy 10x power-walls for $110k, or 1x E F150 for $40k and get a free truck thrown in.
As someone with a large house who just investigated a hybrid power walls + gas generator + solar backup solution and didn’t go through with it due to cost, this is huge. I am literally considering buying an F150 to just keep parked stationary behind my garage.
>Surprised there’s no discussion on the price delta here - I could buy 10x power-walls for $110k, or 1x E F150 for $40k and get a free truck thrown in.
The reason there is no discussion of price delta is at least partially because the price of the truck discussed in the article is not the $40k variant. 10 Powerwalls would be 140 kWh of battery while the $40k F-150 Lightning would be 98 kWh. The one mentioned in the article with the 131 kWh battery is nearly double the price starting at $72.5k. That still might make the F-150 the better solution, but accuracy is important.
My understanding is the more natural comparison is between the ~$80k truck with the power walls since it allows the backup power solution vs manually plugging things in via extension cord.
Engineering Explained had a good video about it. https://youtu.be/ATAFIoXTEe8
This especially makes sense these days now that (in most places) you can only sell your solar at bulk rates which are lower than the electricity you buy.
So you literally get your energy sold back to you at a premium for the sole service of storage which is a rather crap deal. Keeping all the power you produce seems like the best option, though you do have to pay for the initial cost of batteries.
It would be neat to see some numbers as to how long it would take to make up the cost back in monthly bill reductions depending on the local prices.
I'm not sure where you got your numbers from, but as the owner and operator of multiple EV's and a powerwall, they sound way off to me.
But beyond that, there are big distinctions left out of your theory: for instance, that the F150 is selling for 130-145k unless you happen to be friends with a ford dealer, and that the powerwall's value is primarily derived from grid peak time cost savings, not just emergency backup.
Unless you plan to charge and discharge your car's battery daily, by, i suppose manually flicking your main breaker over (is that even legal?) you will not see that value returned with your truck.
Ford has found value “sweet spots” with the $39k electric F-150 and the $19k, 30mpg Maverick. They are both very reasonable vehicle choices that almost any household could make use of.
Powerwalls may have a premium over other commercial solutions. Will Prowse covers everything from Powerwalls, DIY and commercial systems down to portable camping batteries on his YouTube channel [1]. For the kind of investment you're talking about, it may be worth exploring other potentially more cost-effective options outside of DIY.
You should base your decisions on life cycle costs not inital costs. What is the longevity of the car battery vs. house battery? How much does their disposal cost?
Surprised at the negativity. This is great IMO! I just bought a house and am surprised by how crappy all the options for backup power generation are.
Cheapo generator: allows you to plug in some stuff but it’s very ad hoc, needs some light maintenance. Definitely good in a pinch but it’s not gonna power your house or even make it easy to keep your lights on.
Expensive generator, wired into house electrical system: great stuff but very expensive, and still requires maintenance.
Powerwall: low maintenance, terrific user experience, however exorbitantly expensive and also won’t really help in a prolonged outage.
I have a Powerwall. It's price was competitive with a natural gas generator. I was surprised as well (I didn't expect the generator to be that expensive), but when they came within ballpark, the Powerwall was a no brainer.
It does (supposed to have) sustainability assuming it's backed by solar and you have enough sun (as with all solar caveats).
The best thing about the Powerwall is that it's not a standby system. It's active everyday. For my house, solar by day, battery by night, recycle, recharge, repeat.
This means that when the rare event comes, I don't have to worry (as much) about it not working because I didn't run the thing for 6 months. It can fail anytime, but at least I can, ideally, deal with it while the grid is up, rather than have it fail when it's actually necessary.
I've got a somewhat goldilocks generator setup that involves a backfeed breaker (with mandatory interlock kit). I can run my central AC on this thing for ~5 hours per 10 gallons of fuel. The generator is "portable" and rated for 12000 continuous watts.
Its a bit of a pain to set up, but this is how I deal with multi-day hurricane scenarios living in the gulf coast region.
I debated standby generator, but the cost vs value is a difficult argument considering how often the texas grid actually experiences a multi-day event.
I am still considering something like a powerwall, but its a lot of extra crap to pay for and think about. My generator is properly winterized and will almost certainly start up if required to within the next half decade. Very simple.
My parents have a Generac. It tests itself every Tuesday at noon. It always seemed fine. But the first time they needed it, something failed. I'm not sure what, but I think it was in the electronics and software. Even the best tests can't catch everything.
This is great, but don't discount the fact that you can have some battery backup for under $5k USD (~15kwh). Granted, you won't have ~100 kWh of storage, but in most places (in the US), the grid isn't so unstable that you'll regularly use it.
And of course it won't power your home at normal consumption days (or even 1 day), but it works for emergencies.
Realistically, you have to look at it from a "convenience/dollar", since power outages are generally rare.
With the general infrequency of power outages in most places, getting portable quiet generators like Honda EU ones and running an extension cord inside your house is pretty much the most cost effective solution. You can chain 2 EU3000is together for 6000 watts, and only spend $6k, and run them out of your back yard without disturbing the neighbors.
The other issue that you have to consider with Lightning is that while its good for occasional outages, for every watt you use, you slowly lose the ability to drive away if shit goes south, with no easy way of effectively getting that charge back. If anything, the current Hybrid F150 is the better choice for powering your house.
generators and power walls make sense only for hospitals and stupid-rich people (edit: and remote setups)
You probably have a couple things you need to keep running during a power outage. A decent consumer nobreak will be more economical and efficient.
This is marketing. This car is being marketed to the same doomsday people who buy guns because the coming collapse of civilization. Pure fear based marketing.
I have a generator that can power everything in my house except my air conditioning. It plugs into the side of my house. The total cost in todays dollars is less than $1k usd.
I’ve used this generator to power me through outages that have lasted days.
It’s been relatively low maintenance and the maintenance that exists is taught in YouTube videos.
I'm more interested in the range extender[0] that was patented by ford recently. Body-on-frame vehices seem like a no-brainer case for EV's, since they're typically larger and have more space on the frame for batteries, and having a camping/off road vehicle that also has a range extender sounds like a great idea to me.
I've really been thinking of getting one after my 2019 crosstrek is paid off, but that won't be for a couple of years.
This is an old article, it's 15 years old which makes it ancient in the battery world. I have a Prius from that generation and mine doesn't have V2G. I can't find any numbers, how many Priuses actually have V2G capability?
Power outage at my house right now and I have my fridge running off the 1500W outlet on my Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Only an 8kWH battery but it’s good enough to run the fridge just wish I could run my well pump as well because no running water really is the worst. And when the battery depletes the cars ICE kicks in as a generator.
This kind of thing is only going to get more necessary as the weather becomes more volatile. This outage is likely fallout from the historic storm that went through Ontario and Quebec a bit over a week ago.
It may be possible to run it off of a 1500w AC source. Compressors/pumps need a lot of current for a very short period of time to start, and much less power to run. Sometimes you can use electronic trickery to "soft start" a pump, Google "soft start" + your water pump - if your pump is 1/2hp or less, it's likely possible to run the pump off a 1500w supply.
Alternatively, you can add a pressurized well tank for $300-500 usd that will supply you with 25-35 gallons of water without power. Not an unlimited supply, but even a little water is much better than none.
Hmm, my Outlander PHEV doesn't have the 1500W outlet - I must have a lower trim.
Cool that you can do it though. I believe there was a demonstration of using this vehicle as a backup generator during an outage, but I don't think it was ever commercialized.
“At scale, when these vehicles are enabled to send energy back to the grid, flex alerts and notices of grid emergencies will be a thing completely of the past,”
He cannot possibly be that ignorant. Nobody is going to be willing to not only put cycles on their battery but risk being left with a half-charged vehicle during a grid failure.
Transforming a Lightning into a home generator requires Ford’s 80-amp charging station and a $3,895 home integration system from Sunrun Inc. Installation cost for the Sunrun system varies according to the home and location. The charging station comes with the extended-range version of the Lightning; it’s a $1,310 option for buyers of the standard 230 mile-range version of the pickup.
A nine kilowatt electric generator costs under a thousand dollars. What kind of idiot is going to shell out six grand just to drain his truck battery for the same purpose?
I genuinely don't like this, in part because it is so good.
Society continues cramming unnecessary, yet surprisingly useful features into bigger and bigger cars. With each feature, it brings people 1 step closer to thinking that they actually need what is effectively a murder tank in their house.
In the US, power outages are a once every few years kind of thing. Most truck uses are similarly once a year sort of uses. These trucks are by and large purchased by rich people in suburbs, who never so much as use 1% of the features they offer. Yet, people end up solo-driving these same over-bloated tanks for their commute and ferrying around a couple of people.
It makes the roads riskier (already biggest contributor of youth death), increases road wear by 4x (weight squared) and leads to the general inefficiencies that come with car-centric design.
> “That new customer to trucks is really being brought in, in my mind, by the Mega Power Frunk and by the Pro Power Onboard,” she says. “And some people are just truly, really interested in this product as a backup generator.”
I don't know, we're an average family with a mid-size SUV and looking around for EVs, there is not much that is not a downgrade in capability. Model 3s are too small compared to a SUV, while X and Y cost a 100 grand. I wonder if this F150 interest it's because it's at last a big EV at a very affordable price.
(Edit: I misread the X&Y costs: X is over 100, Y is 50-60)
Too small for what? If you need to haul construction equipment or whatever, a decent pickup is mandatory. If you need to shuffle kids to soccer practice and the grocery store, pretty much any 4-door care will do fine.
while I don't see me buying one of these, its the most interesting auto feature I've seen in a very long time. I don't want backup power for when the grid fails, I want primary power for a small cabin I'm building far from available grid power. (I can get grid power run to my land, but it would cost me way more than this Ford to run the lines.)
The Hybrid F-150 with the generator option may be a much better option in that situation. A spare can could prevent you from running out of power and ending up stranded. Or you could drive out to quickly refuel.
You could probably get a gas powered generator and use it all your life for that usage while still polluting less than if you bought a whole ass 3 tonne car
I recently chatted with a tow truck operator who owns an electric vehicle himself, and he was spooked by the fire risks; he had just taken a course about how to avoid causing electrical fires when towing EVs, which evidently can start weeks after damage is inflicted, and shuddered at the idea of an lithium ion fire starting in someone’s garage. Never really thought about the fire risk now that really huge lithium batteries are getting more common.
It really puts into perspective just how much energy our vehicles us, whether electric or ICE, when the battery from a single electric vehicle can power everything in your house for many hours/even days.
Powering a house for days is a very broad statement. Does this include things are that electrified such as a central air conditioner and/or heat pump? Electric water heater? Electric clothes dryer? Maybe the last two would be considered a luxury in an emergency situation but I've lost power for 3+ days twice in the past two years during a major snow/ice storm. It's brutal not having a heat source and if you live in a hot climate I'm sure it's equally brutal in the summer.
I have a small p.v. with lithium (BYD LiFeP) backup, just to ensure fridge/freezer/home IT and phones/light/VMC in case of outage, AC-coupled classic inverter to do more and recharge in that case.
Honestly IF Vehicle2Loads systems became spread AND an open standard I might evaluate them because EVs are NOT cheap and NOT cheaper than ICE so far, but probably they will, for artificial or natural reasons, or anyway due to lack of gasoline/gas they will be needed anyway. Surely the claim of powering for days is a bit exaggerated, more than a bit, but surely with a p.v. combined might be a way to save money in case of very unstable grids witch again is not the case so far but probably will due to various factors...
One thing I doubt is the vehicle to grid application for MANY reasons like:
- inverters too small and not quick enough to stabilize the grid
- I doubt any operator accept energy injections from countless set of moving inverters, home p.v. is normally checked BEFORE allowing to connect to the grid, vehicles move can't be checked up front
- I doubt owners want to give their energy to the grid from expensive batteries
The comparison to the Powerwall is certainly appropriate given the subject of the article, but I think the author should have also included the battery capacity and price of one of Tesla's vehicles to give a sense of how much Ford is advancing the state of the art.
The fine print is where it all kind of falls apart.
It says they recommend SunRun for every aspect of the grid modification, including utility coordination.
Well, these are the states where SunRun operates... https://www.sunrun.com/solar-by-state ... And their advertising doesn't mention EV plug installs anywhere so you are in DIY/SOL territory for half the country, and in for a unique experience if in a good one
[+] [-] ag56|3 years ago|reply
As someone with a large house who just investigated a hybrid power walls + gas generator + solar backup solution and didn’t go through with it due to cost, this is huge. I am literally considering buying an F150 to just keep parked stationary behind my garage.
[+] [-] slg|3 years ago|reply
The reason there is no discussion of price delta is at least partially because the price of the truck discussed in the article is not the $40k variant. 10 Powerwalls would be 140 kWh of battery while the $40k F-150 Lightning would be 98 kWh. The one mentioned in the article with the 131 kWh battery is nearly double the price starting at $72.5k. That still might make the F-150 the better solution, but accuracy is important.
[+] [-] rsync|3 years ago|reply
… or generac with 100amp breaker for 4K …
We power our house and our outbuildings/barns with no problems - even using 30a dryer and 20a microwave, etc. - all from the generator.
500 gallon propane tank implies at least 7 days of runtime but much more if we conserved. I can’t believe we lived without this …
[+] [-] surfaceofthesun|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moffkalast|3 years ago|reply
So you literally get your energy sold back to you at a premium for the sole service of storage which is a rather crap deal. Keeping all the power you produce seems like the best option, though you do have to pay for the initial cost of batteries.
It would be neat to see some numbers as to how long it would take to make up the cost back in monthly bill reductions depending on the local prices.
[+] [-] elif|3 years ago|reply
But beyond that, there are big distinctions left out of your theory: for instance, that the F150 is selling for 130-145k unless you happen to be friends with a ford dealer, and that the powerwall's value is primarily derived from grid peak time cost savings, not just emergency backup.
Unless you plan to charge and discharge your car's battery daily, by, i suppose manually flicking your main breaker over (is that even legal?) you will not see that value returned with your truck.
[+] [-] reactjavascript|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] technofiend|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.youtube.com/c/WillProwse
[+] [-] outworlder|3 years ago|reply
What about solar as the primary power solution, plus powerwalls for the night. How much would it cost?
[+] [-] progfix|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thehappypm|3 years ago|reply
Cheapo generator: allows you to plug in some stuff but it’s very ad hoc, needs some light maintenance. Definitely good in a pinch but it’s not gonna power your house or even make it easy to keep your lights on.
Expensive generator, wired into house electrical system: great stuff but very expensive, and still requires maintenance.
Powerwall: low maintenance, terrific user experience, however exorbitantly expensive and also won’t really help in a prolonged outage.
[+] [-] whartung|3 years ago|reply
It does (supposed to have) sustainability assuming it's backed by solar and you have enough sun (as with all solar caveats).
The best thing about the Powerwall is that it's not a standby system. It's active everyday. For my house, solar by day, battery by night, recycle, recharge, repeat.
This means that when the rare event comes, I don't have to worry (as much) about it not working because I didn't run the thing for 6 months. It can fail anytime, but at least I can, ideally, deal with it while the grid is up, rather than have it fail when it's actually necessary.
Also the power switchover is seamless.
The Powerwall experience is, indeed, very good.
[+] [-] bob1029|3 years ago|reply
Its a bit of a pain to set up, but this is how I deal with multi-day hurricane scenarios living in the gulf coast region.
I debated standby generator, but the cost vs value is a difficult argument considering how often the texas grid actually experiences a multi-day event.
I am still considering something like a powerwall, but its a lot of extra crap to pay for and think about. My generator is properly winterized and will almost certainly start up if required to within the next half decade. Very simple.
[+] [-] xhkkffbf|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] turtlebits|3 years ago|reply
And of course it won't power your home at normal consumption days (or even 1 day), but it works for emergencies.
[+] [-] maxerickson|3 years ago|reply
It is a medium power transfer switch that installs behind the electric meter, meaning that the existing panel can be used to select loads.
With a lower quality generator, you probably get ~3kW for less than $5000.
[+] [-] ActorNightly|3 years ago|reply
With the general infrequency of power outages in most places, getting portable quiet generators like Honda EU ones and running an extension cord inside your house is pretty much the most cost effective solution. You can chain 2 EU3000is together for 6000 watts, and only spend $6k, and run them out of your back yard without disturbing the neighbors.
The other issue that you have to consider with Lightning is that while its good for occasional outages, for every watt you use, you slowly lose the ability to drive away if shit goes south, with no easy way of effectively getting that charge back. If anything, the current Hybrid F150 is the better choice for powering your house.
[+] [-] asdfasdf111|3 years ago|reply
You probably have a couple things you need to keep running during a power outage. A decent consumer nobreak will be more economical and efficient.
This is marketing. This car is being marketed to the same doomsday people who buy guns because the coming collapse of civilization. Pure fear based marketing.
[+] [-] mfer|3 years ago|reply
I’ve used this generator to power me through outages that have lasted days.
It’s been relatively low maintenance and the maintenance that exists is taught in YouTube videos.
[+] [-] bdcravens|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mikedelago|3 years ago|reply
I've really been thinking of getting one after my 2019 crosstrek is paid off, but that won't be for a couple of years.
[0] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a34277725/ford-f-150-range...
[+] [-] criddell|3 years ago|reply
> As long as it has fuel, the Prius can produce at least three kilowatts of continuous power, which is adequate to maintain a home's basic functions.
https://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/automobiles/02POWER.html
[+] [-] WhompingWindows|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] markstos|3 years ago|reply
Wow. Every household driving an F150 would appear to the grid like bring 7x houses online.
It certainly puts the efficiency of writing a bike for short trips in perspective.
[+] [-] cmrdporcupine|3 years ago|reply
This kind of thing is only going to get more necessary as the weather becomes more volatile. This outage is likely fallout from the historic storm that went through Ontario and Quebec a bit over a week ago.
[+] [-] xnyan|3 years ago|reply
Alternatively, you can add a pressurized well tank for $300-500 usd that will supply you with 25-35 gallons of water without power. Not an unlimited supply, but even a little water is much better than none.
[+] [-] danans|3 years ago|reply
Cool that you can do it though. I believe there was a demonstration of using this vehicle as a backup generator during an outage, but I don't think it was ever commercialized.
[+] [-] causi|3 years ago|reply
He cannot possibly be that ignorant. Nobody is going to be willing to not only put cycles on their battery but risk being left with a half-charged vehicle during a grid failure.
Transforming a Lightning into a home generator requires Ford’s 80-amp charging station and a $3,895 home integration system from Sunrun Inc. Installation cost for the Sunrun system varies according to the home and location. The charging station comes with the extended-range version of the Lightning; it’s a $1,310 option for buyers of the standard 230 mile-range version of the pickup.
A nine kilowatt electric generator costs under a thousand dollars. What kind of idiot is going to shell out six grand just to drain his truck battery for the same purpose?
[+] [-] screye|3 years ago|reply
Society continues cramming unnecessary, yet surprisingly useful features into bigger and bigger cars. With each feature, it brings people 1 step closer to thinking that they actually need what is effectively a murder tank in their house.
In the US, power outages are a once every few years kind of thing. Most truck uses are similarly once a year sort of uses. These trucks are by and large purchased by rich people in suburbs, who never so much as use 1% of the features they offer. Yet, people end up solo-driving these same over-bloated tanks for their commute and ferrying around a couple of people.
It makes the roads riskier (already biggest contributor of youth death), increases road wear by 4x (weight squared) and leads to the general inefficiencies that come with car-centric design.
Note: This doesn't apply to those in rural areas.
[+] [-] kator|3 years ago|reply
https://www.thedrive.com/news/39378/how-canadians-derailed-a...
[+] [-] foobarian|3 years ago|reply
I don't know, we're an average family with a mid-size SUV and looking around for EVs, there is not much that is not a downgrade in capability. Model 3s are too small compared to a SUV, while X and Y cost a 100 grand. I wonder if this F150 interest it's because it's at last a big EV at a very affordable price.
(Edit: I misread the X&Y costs: X is over 100, Y is 50-60)
[+] [-] rcMgD2BwE72F|3 years ago|reply
Uh? Model Y AWD Long Range costs $64,990 in the US before gas savings and incentives. https://www.tesla.com/modely/design#overview
[+] [-] tootie|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ubercore|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bryanlarsen|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abruzzi|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thedougd|3 years ago|reply
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35152752/powered-hous...
[+] [-] Spunkie|3 years ago|reply
So the fact that my entire off grid battery system would travel with me when I'm not at home is a huge benefit.
[+] [-] lm28469|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] presentation|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DarylZero|3 years ago|reply
The "generator" in this setup automatically turns on and off according to need. Mostly it was off.
I wasn't running the house at full normal electrical usage. No AC. Kept the lights and fridge and computers on though.
Of course you can do this with any kind of car. But a hybrid (not a pure electric as in the article) is surely ideal.
[+] [-] dcchambers|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ars|3 years ago|reply
i.e. just lights and electronics, which don't take much power.
And you are comparing it to driving a full day BTW.
[+] [-] phreenet|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kkfx|3 years ago|reply
Honestly IF Vehicle2Loads systems became spread AND an open standard I might evaluate them because EVs are NOT cheap and NOT cheaper than ICE so far, but probably they will, for artificial or natural reasons, or anyway due to lack of gasoline/gas they will be needed anyway. Surely the claim of powering for days is a bit exaggerated, more than a bit, but surely with a p.v. combined might be a way to save money in case of very unstable grids witch again is not the case so far but probably will due to various factors...
One thing I doubt is the vehicle to grid application for MANY reasons like:
- inverters too small and not quick enough to stabilize the grid
- I doubt any operator accept energy injections from countless set of moving inverters, home p.v. is normally checked BEFORE allowing to connect to the grid, vehicles move can't be checked up front
- I doubt owners want to give their energy to the grid from expensive batteries
[+] [-] jiveturkey42|3 years ago|reply
Sometimes things are just fun, interesting, and cool
[+] [-] s17n|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jedberg|3 years ago|reply
I don't know about you, but in a blackout I'd want my truck fully charged, and not being remotely drained by the grid operator.
[+] [-] elif|3 years ago|reply
It says they recommend SunRun for every aspect of the grid modification, including utility coordination.
Well, these are the states where SunRun operates... https://www.sunrun.com/solar-by-state ... And their advertising doesn't mention EV plug installs anywhere so you are in DIY/SOL territory for half the country, and in for a unique experience if in a good one