What will be of interest to HN readers is the reason for, well one of, the delay.
The Elizabeth line (it was called Cross Rail during development) is the first train line that combines both the national rail infrastructure and the London Underground. Combining the signalling systems has be an incredible complex problem. There is quite a bit online to read about it:
> The Elizabeth line (it was called Cross Rail during development) is the first train line that combines both the national rail infrastructure and the London Underground. Combining the signalling systems has be an incredible complex problem.
No, it isn't. Historically the boundary between the Underground and the rest of the "mainline" railway network used to be even fuzzier with lots of through-running, but even today a few stretches of lines served by both Underground and mainline trains remain (the Metropolitan Line north of Harrow-on-the-Hill, the outer ends of the District Line to both Richmond and Wimbledon, the Bakerloo Line north of Queen's Park).
What's true though is that due to its capacity requirements, Crossrail is using a different signalling system than the rest of the railway network, which means lovely interface issues at the transition points…
This video also explains the problems: https://youtu.be/rtE0nlOrwGQ. In fact, it's not just the problem of combining the national rail and underground signalling systems, but there's even a third signalling system used by the Heathrow Express.
So the trains will need to seamlessly transition between TPWS on the national railway lines, then CBTC in the London underground, and ETCS when going to Heathrow airport.
I think this is what they call integration hell, and is responsible for delays of several years. When you consider the complexity, but also the safety-critical nature of these train signalling systems, it's no wonder it has overrun.
It’s possible I understand this differently to the way you meant it, but other sections of the Underground have National
Rail trains running on them, and visa versa.
For example, the Wimbledon Branch of the District Line : https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/30753/wimbledon-bran...
(I know it’s a forum post but that old website is a wealth of information about the District Line).
> ran from Paddington, where the great railways entered London from the west, to Farringdon, on the edge of the city
The New Yorker sub-editors are notoriously anal about their house style, but you'd think the one who dealt with this article could have left it as "the edge of the City" rather than completely changing the meaning.
Thank you. I don't know much about London geography and this really confused me. I could believe neither that the underground line went outwards from Paddington nor that Paddington was outside the city at that time.
This highlights something that's amused me for a while about our "privatised" rail system - the private companies are mostly owned by foreign state transport companies.
It is great and should be celebrated. For me the big win is no longer having to hand over high-way robbery amounts of money for the Heathrow express. Having a better and cheaper service to Heathrow terminals is brilliant. Byeeeee Heathrow express!
Yes, I'm also curious what will happen there. The Express is still faster (20 vs 30 mins), but costs twice as much. And you have to get it from Paddington. It sits in a weird niche where the alternative rail routes weren't that much longer, but if you really had to get to the airport in a hurry (especially connecting from the West Country) it was a nice emergency option.
Now you also have the option of doing Reading > Hayes > Heathrow entirely on the Elizabeth Line.
My biggest gripe is that despite the high price, you spend the entire journey being force-fed live news on the TV and PR fluff about how it's the best rated line in the UK (no surprise, it goes between two stations).
You can take the tube to heathrow today, and it’s not too bad an experience. Going to soho it’s only 20 minutes longer than heathrow express (and no train change!).
It is a bit annoying to take from terminal 3 — they really push you to the express. But easy enough and I’ve done it a couple times when traveling on my own dime.
There was already the Picadilly line? I'm sure Heathrow Express is faster (depending exactly where you want to go/change for of course) but if your problem with it was the price, it wasn't mandatory.
I'm sure others will disagree but, as a Londoner, I wish they'd spent the money on the rest of the system.
There's a cohort of us that have to put our fingers in our ears on the approach to some stations as the grinding of wheels against tracks reaches an incredible volume. Pretty sure it must be illegal on some checklist somewhere.
Not to mention the raggedy state of most of the other lines. I'll stop before this becomes a full blown rant.
I’ll always remember that extremely hot summer when someone tweeted at the Central Line support twitter account about how bad it was, and got a cheery response that it’ll be sorted in “early 2030” when they get new trains with air conditioning.
Its going to get worse, as the present government is making sure that TFL (the organisation incharge of running transport in london) cannot raise enough money to cover costs.
I feel like it’s not at all unexpected that the Elizabeth Line is fantastic (although this is probably a little over exuberant by British standards of praise). Over budget but well implemented seems to have been the pattern for public infrastructure projects in the UK for some time now.
Indeed - the expectations were very high for Crossrail before and during development. All that has happened is they have delivered the product exactly as described, albeit 4 years later and over budget.
It should be noted that 4 years ago the BBC were running documentaries about how successful the Crossrail project had been after the tunnels were finished and most of the stations were almost done. It seems that nobody expected the software and signalling to take an additional 4 years of time. Somebody somewhere really messed up that part of the project. Everything else - the main civil engineering project - did go extremely smoothly and was even ahead of schedule at times.
I think your right, however they don’t always pick the right projects to do. HS2 for example isn’t exactly thought of as the right place to spend a few 10s billion pounds.
Meanwhile the rest of the country languishes in underfunded, underdeveloped transport infrastructure. The divide between the south east and the rest of the country becomes more stark day by day.
Well first thing is that the Elizebeth line, even on the World Stage is absolutely top class ( I know that doesn't sound very British XD ). And It is building on top or next to the oldest underground / railroad system. There are plenty of new infrastructures that aren't better than similar ones in Japan or South Korea.
I recently rode on it, for the fun, and although the signage could be a little clearer, it was quite a good experience.
It's the same principle as the Parisian RER network ( suburban lines outside the city, new tunnels under the city center with few key stops) which started in the 60s, just with a newer and more modern ( platform screen doors, most notably) execution.
[+] [-] samwillis|3 years ago|reply
The Elizabeth line (it was called Cross Rail during development) is the first train line that combines both the national rail infrastructure and the London Underground. Combining the signalling systems has be an incredible complex problem. There is quite a bit online to read about it:
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/crossrail-delay-logistics
https://www.crossrail.co.uk/project/our-plan-to-complete-the...
[+] [-] iggldiggl|3 years ago|reply
No, it isn't. Historically the boundary between the Underground and the rest of the "mainline" railway network used to be even fuzzier with lots of through-running, but even today a few stretches of lines served by both Underground and mainline trains remain (the Metropolitan Line north of Harrow-on-the-Hill, the outer ends of the District Line to both Richmond and Wimbledon, the Bakerloo Line north of Queen's Park).
What's true though is that due to its capacity requirements, Crossrail is using a different signalling system than the rest of the railway network, which means lovely interface issues at the transition points…
[+] [-] Arbortheus|3 years ago|reply
So the trains will need to seamlessly transition between TPWS on the national railway lines, then CBTC in the London underground, and ETCS when going to Heathrow airport.
I think this is what they call integration hell, and is responsible for delays of several years. When you consider the complexity, but also the safety-critical nature of these train signalling systems, it's no wonder it has overrun.
[+] [-] tomalpha|3 years ago|reply
(I know it’s a forum post but that old website is a wealth of information about the District Line).
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] dmurray|3 years ago|reply
The New Yorker sub-editors are notoriously anal about their house style, but you'd think the one who dealt with this article could have left it as "the edge of the City" rather than completely changing the meaning.
[+] [-] cja|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randomcarbloke|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] United857|3 years ago|reply
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3179455/londo...
[+] [-] hgomersall|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xedarius|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joshvm|3 years ago|reply
Now you also have the option of doing Reading > Hayes > Heathrow entirely on the Elizabeth Line.
My biggest gripe is that despite the high price, you spend the entire journey being force-fed live news on the TV and PR fluff about how it's the best rated line in the UK (no surprise, it goes between two stations).
[+] [-] likpok|3 years ago|reply
It is a bit annoying to take from terminal 3 — they really push you to the express. But easy enough and I’ve done it a couple times when traveling on my own dime.
Total price ends up around £4-5.
[+] [-] OJFord|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] orev|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LightG|3 years ago|reply
There's a cohort of us that have to put our fingers in our ears on the approach to some stations as the grinding of wheels against tracks reaches an incredible volume. Pretty sure it must be illegal on some checklist somewhere.
Not to mention the raggedy state of most of the other lines. I'll stop before this becomes a full blown rant.
[+] [-] blitzar|3 years ago|reply
Northern line had a much needed extension along to battersea
Picadilly line stations have been seeing a lot of elevator and escalator replacements.
Circle and district line new trains are magnificent.
Add in the tfl rail connections, the outer circle line of sorts that creates
[+] [-] mcintyre1994|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KaiserPro|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pydry|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] secondcoming|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jleahy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Biologist123|3 years ago|reply
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail
[+] [-] gumby|3 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Avenue_Subway
[+] [-] qgin|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rowanajmarshall|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cpncrunch|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nicoburns|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nbevans|3 years ago|reply
It should be noted that 4 years ago the BBC were running documentaries about how successful the Crossrail project had been after the tunnels were finished and most of the stations were almost done. It seems that nobody expected the software and signalling to take an additional 4 years of time. Somebody somewhere really messed up that part of the project. Everything else - the main civil engineering project - did go extremely smoothly and was even ahead of schedule at times.
[+] [-] mrec|3 years ago|reply
Indeed. "Quite good" is usually considered the absolute pinnacle of fawning adulation.
[+] [-] kitd|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Naga|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samwillis|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yur3i__|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iqkznnft|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ksec|3 years ago|reply
The second this is coming from Newyorker.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] formerkrogemp|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] was_a_dev|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mountain_Skies|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LightG|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newaccount2021|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] sofixa|3 years ago|reply
It's the same principle as the Parisian RER network ( suburban lines outside the city, new tunnels under the city center with few key stops) which started in the 60s, just with a newer and more modern ( platform screen doors, most notably) execution.
[+] [-] nailer|3 years ago|reply
So there’s no signs to other tube lines. Just signs on how to get to the tube which feels weird because you thought you were already on the tube.
It would be better to explicitly spell out directions to what tube lines are available.