I just graduated from Cornell, and I'm not surprised. Some student posters around campus which read "Hong Kong stands with Ukraine" had the "Hong Kong" scribbled out by someone else. [1] I saw students point and laugh at a similar poster. On multiple occasions, I saw scraps left behind where posters criticizing Xi Jinping or the CCP had hung.
Let these students keep embarrassing themselves and their country. The more people can see how the CPC thinks of others, which is exactly what these kids are expressing, the better. Shame and losing face will be the only thing that'll make the CPC change.
As a Cornell alum from India , I’ve seen so many these sorts of political storms in a teacup. Especially, of the India-Pakistan and Israel-Palestine variety. If you’re a foreign student, just don’t engage with this stuff. You are a guest in a foreign country. So even if you disagree with the views of your hosts, keep them to yourself and be polite and gracious. Your home country’s government is more than capable defending its point of view in the appropriate fora. You are at Cornell to learn, not engage in political brawls.
That is very non Western approach. Just because you're foreign doesn't mean you shouldn't engage in political discourse. It's wrong to bully the victims of China, but not to verbally defend China, as messed up as it is.
I think this is explicitly the danger of nationalism. It has always been odd to be, because criticism seems the cornerstone of a democracy. You need to recognize what is wrong (because you're never perfect) and improve upon that. You can do this and have pride in your country too. But we need to disassociate the idea that a people (or race) and their country are one in the same. There's relatively little difference in people due to their race. But similarly we need to be able to allow others to criticize our country without taking it personally. An outside perspective can be valuable.
But I think we end up making it a family issue. I can make fun of and pick on my brother, but you can't.
>"we were crucified in a courtroom for crimes that we did not commit"
They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that plurality of UN members who has formal position on the matter states PRC did not commit. When the dominant narrative is PRC government actions in XJ is counter-terrorism/deradicalization, the anti-China racism being complained about is "false" western propaganda, i.e. completely opposing foreign policy. And TBH some of the past alleged racism is pretty apt, like posters of Chinese curlers throwing a corona virus for the Winter Olympics. Rest is just Chinese idpol finding their place on Western campus culture, foreign students protest over diasphora shit all the time. So why wouldn't Chinese play the racism card.
I think leaving en masse from a lecture/speech that you ideologically disagree with is likely one of the few permissible forms of protest in a university context.
It’s certainly better than many alternatives; however, universities are not meant to be places of ideological dogmatism; a better response to a lecture you disagree with is an open, rational debate/discussion.
> Some Chinese international students at universities in the U.S. and Canada have reported anti-Beijing speech to university authorities as a form of anti-Chinese racism, or they reported Uyghurs and Chinese dissidents on campus to Chinese diplomatic officials.
Can you have freedom of speach while trying to take it away from others?
Hmmm, if a group of white supremacists booed someone talking about their experience of racism, then got up and walked out, what would the administration’s response been?
If that group then sent an email saying that they left because they did not feel comfortable and were subjected to hostility by the surrounding audience, would that be given a moment of respect?
What if that organisation was giving large amounts of funding to Cornell, would that have impacted the response?
These seem like reasonable question, variations of which come up every time students of some country committing crimes against humanity come out in support of said crimes. The response is always silence.
I don’t really expect anything different this time.
Indeed. Similar things have occurred in universities here in Australia. And as far as I know, universities bend over backwards because a large amount of their money comes in from international students. A lot of which happen to be Chinese.
Legally speaking, the University admin cannot do anything to Chinese students who boo and walk out, and also cannot do anything to white supremacists who boo and walk out.
In the US, Students have First Amendment rights to express themselves. The critical point here is that by walking out they did not prevent any speakers from exercising their own First Amendment rights.
It does not mean we have to respect them for that or be polite about it. That's our First Amendment right.
What I find really interesting is that if these were conservative students that did the same (for any topic) the other students would have gone ballistic, the school sanctioned them, and every Twitter warrior under the sun blasted them to pieces, but due to some magical reason, none of this happens when it comes to China/CCP (this is not the first time)
Then people have the balls to claim that US liberal organizations don't bow down to China (or their money I guess)
Conservative students have been doing this for a while now without much, if any, notice or sanction. Hell, they've been doing this on the UC Berkeley campus since I was a student and the Daily Cal doesn't even bother cover their protests anymore because it's the same old victimhood shtick conservatives have been playing at for decades.
(But note that that the seniormost U.S. GOP senator is married to a CCP senior official and ask yourself which party is in bed with the Chinese government.)
> The big picture: Uyghurs and other marginalized groups with ties to China can face intimidation, state surveillance and threats to their family members in China when they speak out on U.S. campuses about oppression by the Chinese government.
> Multiple people present at the event described the Chinese students' reaction to NurMuhammad as "jeering," "taunts," "snickering" and "booing.".
As much as I love long discussions when it comes to technical topics I think this issue is pretty simple to solve, send them back to China.
Is it unjust / unfair? imho, no it's not.
Because they won't be prosecuted or hurt anyways in China, they can complete their education and live a happy ever after under the CCP they so much -obviously- support.
And make an announcement, that any show of support for authoritarian regimes / bullying or any such behaviour would get them expelled.
They can just leave in silence if they fear the CCP might actually hurt their close ones, there is no need to taunt or show any symbol of aggression.
On the other hand, the Uygurs has been the actually oppressed ones, a Chinese person isn't going to die in China especially after the show they made in the University according to the article, they can go and support the CCP in China and they will probably even have more privileges than the average Chinese person.
If they're going to support the CCP anyways, why not support it in China?
at the very least, anyone acting with malice and a clear unexcused support for the CCP, such as taking down posters alone when nobody is watching etc, should be expelled and sent back to China.
Even in the case of them being actually victims almost forced to preach the CCP, what good is it going to do if they're taunting others who are publicly speaking out in other parts of the world? If they do that in China they will actually be celebrated by the govt.
so I see no point of letting them stay personally, unless they do speak out against the regime or stay silent and mind themselves.
I am a Chinese-American, born and lived in California my entire life. The past few years has seen an explosion in racism and Sinophobia against Asians, against Chinese people in particular. The hate has motivated far more people to sympathize with the CCP than they could dream of. So I can understand the Chinese students actions here.
Also, despite what they spoonfeed you on American media, the Chinese government is not committing genocide in Xinjiang - they are not killing people in mass. The amount of misinformation that's being spread is amazing, and scary, as it this is literally the same tactic used when they fabricated justification for war against Iraq with WMDs. The evidence we have is the Uyghurs (who are deemed a national security threat in China) are indeed put into internment camps - but this is more similar to Japanese internment camps US did in WW2 rather than genocide.
I believe the West is threatened by China's progress, and the fact that China is an Asian nation. Westerners cannot fathom that Asian faces can lead the world. As a corrollary of this, China has done more to dethrone white supremacy than Black Lives Matter could ever have done.
It feels like the history is repeating itself. The people of Nazi Germany probably thought they were doing the "right thing". These Chinese students have been brainwashed enough to believe everything their government says. Or may be even paid well enough to act like that!
Comparing what is happening in Xinjiang to the Holocaust is Holocaust trivialization. They are not engaging in the organized murder of 11 million people. Not even close.
Wish these gross comparisons for obvious political reasons (because we feel a rivalry with China) would end.
The brainwashed cannot know they are brainwashed. So they feeling might be in the other way: They know the truth and you are brainwashed.
I bet you and many HNer's won't be able to understand what I said. There is another saying: The new version of Nazi will be reincarnated as anti-Nazi which might or might not be true.
Human has nature cognitive defects caused by the evolution not being able to catch up the pace of changing society. It causes conflicts, war and even self destruction.
Edit/Fix:was
Human has nature cognitive defects caused by not being able to catch up the pace of evolution.
looks like educated in west world doesn't make these folks more........democated?
maybe one day chinese people will be like Uyghur people, hated by most of the world, force to leave their country, seeking a land to live, and this DID happens before.
(Let's remind to people don't know history of china, lots of regime in mainland china are foreigner from outside, ex: 唐(dang), 元(yuan), 清(ching), and its close to be fully occupied by Japan in last centry. If not Japanese gov decided to hit Pearl Harbour, there will be no CCP dominated in mainland China now, and we may speak Japanese and rest of mainland China will be like a giant colony of Japan)
It really bothers me how people foam at the mouth about this when there is far more direct evidence of much worse abuses in Israel/Palestine than Xinjiang, but somehow Xinjiang is the next holocaust and China is Nazi Germany. CIA and State Department propaganda at work.
In response to your other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31691085 claiming that "No concrete evidence has ever been released that there is mass incarceration in Xinjiang."
Of 4.5 million arrests in all of China during five years, more than 7% were in Xinjiang according to Chinese government sources, even though less than 2% of the population live there.
I don't see what so special about that, there were many such protests against people from the right side of the political map or even people who just perceived as such. There are such protests against Israeli speakers or students and other issues where you got a billion of people on one side of the argument and only few millions on the other side. Sometimes it is just a numbers game and there are much more Chinese than Uyghur.
I know this way of thinking is horrible, but let me play devil's advocate for a while:
What if the CCP puts Uyghurs into prison simply because the majority of Chinese citizens want Uyghurs in prison?
1. That would explain the behavior in the article.
2. That would explain why studies report that people in China feel like a democracy. Their government works in the way that benefits the majority of its people, so for some definitions of it, that would be a "democracy".
3. That would explain why some presumably Chinese citizens vandalize posters criticizing Jinping or the CCP. Try showing up with a "Trump is an idiot" poster at a MAGA rally ... and you'll see the same effect.
China is like this because Chinese are like this, and they want it to be like this (for all possible values of "like this"). Same with Russia (who is invading Ukraine because Russians want it), Saudi Arabia (who is beheading gay people because Saudis want it) and other places.
I have even heard following argument: it takes surprisingly little people to overthrow a dictator, so counterintuitively dictators have much higher support than democracies. In democracy, you need support of majority of voters (or whatever, depending on the voting system) while for a dictator to stay up (assuming no outside help) 90 % of people have to stand behind the dictator. A dictator is not someone who took power, but someone granted power by the masses as long as they do what the masses want.
In any case, the real problem here is that the Western nations continue to let people "like this" (for all possible values of "like this" opposed to Western values) in and let them terrorize others, because money is more important than _not_ having people terrorized.
Stop letting the pro-CCP Chinese study in the West and the problem solves itself. They are not in any way entitled to come here and hurt people.
Your example is the same as treatment of black people in the U.S. at the time when they did not have equal rights.
Your example is the same as treatment of Jews in the Nazi Germany.
Things like that happened and happen.
Sometimes the majority of population wants to do horrible things to a minority.
That's true.
Still not sure why you brought that up.
PRC's XJ security architecture is publically about counter terrorism and deradicalization through forced reeducation (with mass interment) and poverty alleviation. While forced sterilzation for women with 3+ kids is XJ catching up to family planning policies with rest of PRC. Years of consistent Uyghur terrorist attacks stopped in exchange for repressing minority consisting 0.02% of population. Majory Han is AOK with this. Plurality of UN position endorses XJ as counter terrorism narrative (with overwhemling support from Muslim countries), minority as human right abuses, and fringe as genocide. So when PRC students say:
>"we were crucified in a courtroom for crimes that we did not commit"
They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that the global political UN community majority states PRC did not commit. And in fact the opposite position is true, to them PRC has found a relatively "humane" method of eliminating radical terrorism versus US bombing the shit out of the ME.
As for being vocal / belligerant about it on campus, that's what what happens when complex diasphora drama between PRC and other anti-CCP minorities happens abroad. Especially in for profit "education" institutes (really prestige diploma mills). They're paying 50K USD + board and enjoying their customarhy campus freedom of expression perks. Foreign student enjoying western campus culture doesn't mean they also get brainwashed endorse western foreign policy instead of their domestic ones. Especially when the gap in perspective is so antithetical.
While I do sympathize with this student, you have to be careful when criticizing a hostile government you are a citizen of. Only in the United States do we have such protections in place to prevent the government from retaliating against the individual for voicing a critical opinion.
[+] [-] jasinjames|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://i.postimg.cc/25LM9hZJ/7297-B1-DB-5-CB3-4019-BCF3-8-F...
[+] [-] intunderflow|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] another_story|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] asddubs|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dgellow|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sumanthvepa|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xdennis|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Commodore63|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] godelski|3 years ago|reply
But I think we end up making it a family issue. I can make fun of and pick on my brother, but you can't.
[+] [-] gumby|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dirtyid|3 years ago|reply
They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that plurality of UN members who has formal position on the matter states PRC did not commit. When the dominant narrative is PRC government actions in XJ is counter-terrorism/deradicalization, the anti-China racism being complained about is "false" western propaganda, i.e. completely opposing foreign policy. And TBH some of the past alleged racism is pretty apt, like posters of Chinese curlers throwing a corona virus for the Winter Olympics. Rest is just Chinese idpol finding their place on Western campus culture, foreign students protest over diasphora shit all the time. So why wouldn't Chinese play the racism card.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] whimsicalism|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ashton314|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kramerger|3 years ago|reply
> Some Chinese international students at universities in the U.S. and Canada have reported anti-Beijing speech to university authorities as a form of anti-Chinese racism, or they reported Uyghurs and Chinese dissidents on campus to Chinese diplomatic officials.
Can you have freedom of speach while trying to take it away from others?
[+] [-] olliej|3 years ago|reply
If that group then sent an email saying that they left because they did not feel comfortable and were subjected to hostility by the surrounding audience, would that be given a moment of respect?
What if that organisation was giving large amounts of funding to Cornell, would that have impacted the response?
These seem like reasonable question, variations of which come up every time students of some country committing crimes against humanity come out in support of said crimes. The response is always silence.
I don’t really expect anything different this time.
[+] [-] jmprspret|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cjensen|3 years ago|reply
In the US, Students have First Amendment rights to express themselves. The critical point here is that by walking out they did not prevent any speakers from exercising their own First Amendment rights.
It does not mean we have to respect them for that or be polite about it. That's our First Amendment right.
[+] [-] throwrecession|3 years ago|reply
Then people have the balls to claim that US liberal organizations don't bow down to China (or their money I guess)
[+] [-] gamblor956|3 years ago|reply
(But note that that the seniormost U.S. GOP senator is married to a CCP senior official and ask yourself which party is in bed with the Chinese government.)
[+] [-] Gnob|3 years ago|reply
> Multiple people present at the event described the Chinese students' reaction to NurMuhammad as "jeering," "taunts," "snickering" and "booing.".
As much as I love long discussions when it comes to technical topics I think this issue is pretty simple to solve, send them back to China. Is it unjust / unfair? imho, no it's not.
Because they won't be prosecuted or hurt anyways in China, they can complete their education and live a happy ever after under the CCP they so much -obviously- support.
And make an announcement, that any show of support for authoritarian regimes / bullying or any such behaviour would get them expelled.
They can just leave in silence if they fear the CCP might actually hurt their close ones, there is no need to taunt or show any symbol of aggression.
On the other hand, the Uygurs has been the actually oppressed ones, a Chinese person isn't going to die in China especially after the show they made in the University according to the article, they can go and support the CCP in China and they will probably even have more privileges than the average Chinese person.
If they're going to support the CCP anyways, why not support it in China?
at the very least, anyone acting with malice and a clear unexcused support for the CCP, such as taking down posters alone when nobody is watching etc, should be expelled and sent back to China. Even in the case of them being actually victims almost forced to preach the CCP, what good is it going to do if they're taunting others who are publicly speaking out in other parts of the world? If they do that in China they will actually be celebrated by the govt.
so I see no point of letting them stay personally, unless they do speak out against the regime or stay silent and mind themselves.
[+] [-] Fargoan|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] proudasian|3 years ago|reply
Also, despite what they spoonfeed you on American media, the Chinese government is not committing genocide in Xinjiang - they are not killing people in mass. The amount of misinformation that's being spread is amazing, and scary, as it this is literally the same tactic used when they fabricated justification for war against Iraq with WMDs. The evidence we have is the Uyghurs (who are deemed a national security threat in China) are indeed put into internment camps - but this is more similar to Japanese internment camps US did in WW2 rather than genocide.
I believe the West is threatened by China's progress, and the fact that China is an Asian nation. Westerners cannot fathom that Asian faces can lead the world. As a corrollary of this, China has done more to dethrone white supremacy than Black Lives Matter could ever have done.
Also relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/v8k0p1/it_an...
[+] [-] jp0d|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] whimsicalism|3 years ago|reply
Wish these gross comparisons for obvious political reasons (because we feel a rivalry with China) would end.
[+] [-] colordrops|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jjcc|3 years ago|reply
I bet you and many HNer's won't be able to understand what I said. There is another saying: The new version of Nazi will be reincarnated as anti-Nazi which might or might not be true.
Human has nature cognitive defects caused by the evolution not being able to catch up the pace of changing society. It causes conflicts, war and even self destruction.
Edit/Fix:was
Human has nature cognitive defects caused by not being able to catch up the pace of evolution.
[+] [-] momofarm|3 years ago|reply
maybe one day chinese people will be like Uyghur people, hated by most of the world, force to leave their country, seeking a land to live, and this DID happens before.
(Let's remind to people don't know history of china, lots of regime in mainland china are foreigner from outside, ex: 唐(dang), 元(yuan), 清(ching), and its close to be fully occupied by Japan in last centry. If not Japanese gov decided to hit Pearl Harbour, there will be no CCP dominated in mainland China now, and we may speak Japanese and rest of mainland China will be like a giant colony of Japan)
[+] [-] tintedfireglass|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colordrops|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yorwba|3 years ago|reply
https://web.archive.org/web/20180921114505/http://www.xj.jcy...
> 五年来，全区检察机关共批准逮捕各类刑事犯罪嫌疑人330918人
https://web.archive.org/web/20210811151913/https://www.spp.g...
> 2013年至2017年，全国检察机关共批捕各类刑事犯罪嫌疑人453.1万人
Of 4.5 million arrests in all of China during five years, more than 7% were in Xinjiang according to Chinese government sources, even though less than 2% of the population live there.
If you focus on 2017 alone, more than 20% of all arrests were in Xinjiang https://www.nchrd.org/2018/07/criminal-arrests-in-xinjiang-a...
[+] [-] lpcvoid|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] picsao|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] golemiprague|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] richwater|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] anovikov|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] fxtentacle|3 years ago|reply
What if the CCP puts Uyghurs into prison simply because the majority of Chinese citizens want Uyghurs in prison?
1. That would explain the behavior in the article.
2. That would explain why studies report that people in China feel like a democracy. Their government works in the way that benefits the majority of its people, so for some definitions of it, that would be a "democracy".
3. That would explain why some presumably Chinese citizens vandalize posters criticizing Jinping or the CCP. Try showing up with a "Trump is an idiot" poster at a MAGA rally ... and you'll see the same effect.
[+] [-] glogla|3 years ago|reply
China is like this because Chinese are like this, and they want it to be like this (for all possible values of "like this"). Same with Russia (who is invading Ukraine because Russians want it), Saudi Arabia (who is beheading gay people because Saudis want it) and other places.
I have even heard following argument: it takes surprisingly little people to overthrow a dictator, so counterintuitively dictators have much higher support than democracies. In democracy, you need support of majority of voters (or whatever, depending on the voting system) while for a dictator to stay up (assuming no outside help) 90 % of people have to stand behind the dictator. A dictator is not someone who took power, but someone granted power by the masses as long as they do what the masses want.
In any case, the real problem here is that the Western nations continue to let people "like this" (for all possible values of "like this" opposed to Western values) in and let them terrorize others, because money is more important than _not_ having people terrorized.
Stop letting the pro-CCP Chinese study in the West and the problem solves itself. They are not in any way entitled to come here and hurt people.
[+] [-] agapon|3 years ago|reply
Your example is the same as treatment of black people in the U.S. at the time when they did not have equal rights. Your example is the same as treatment of Jews in the Nazi Germany.
Things like that happened and happen. Sometimes the majority of population wants to do horrible things to a minority. That's true. Still not sure why you brought that up.
[+] [-] dirtyid|3 years ago|reply
PRC's XJ security architecture is publically about counter terrorism and deradicalization through forced reeducation (with mass interment) and poverty alleviation. While forced sterilzation for women with 3+ kids is XJ catching up to family planning policies with rest of PRC. Years of consistent Uyghur terrorist attacks stopped in exchange for repressing minority consisting 0.02% of population. Majory Han is AOK with this. Plurality of UN position endorses XJ as counter terrorism narrative (with overwhemling support from Muslim countries), minority as human right abuses, and fringe as genocide. So when PRC students say:
>"we were crucified in a courtroom for crimes that we did not commit"
They don't mean for crimes they personally did not commit, but alleged "genocide" that the global political UN community majority states PRC did not commit. And in fact the opposite position is true, to them PRC has found a relatively "humane" method of eliminating radical terrorism versus US bombing the shit out of the ME.
As for being vocal / belligerant about it on campus, that's what what happens when complex diasphora drama between PRC and other anti-CCP minorities happens abroad. Especially in for profit "education" institutes (really prestige diploma mills). They're paying 50K USD + board and enjoying their customarhy campus freedom of expression perks. Foreign student enjoying western campus culture doesn't mean they also get brainwashed endorse western foreign policy instead of their domestic ones. Especially when the gap in perspective is so antithetical.
[+] [-] mise_en_place|3 years ago|reply