[jonobird1]

This comment is the overplayed take that because a lot are heavy frameworks, that this should be acceptable. As soon as something is classified as a framework, it seems ok to be >200kb.

If you take Tailwind CSS for example, when correctly using their CLI tool, it only includes the size of the css classes actually used, keeping it to a minimum, when compared to people just doing a standard import of the entire library. I like this mentality because it's offering the ability to be very lightweight, or as large as the 'framework' it offers. NextJS offers this as part of their build process, but not sure how big their assets are with it for a simple usecase.

[jchw]

The word framework doesn't really actually mean anything. People have a feel for it, but there is no concrete "this is a framework, not a library." However, I think that for most people, the criteria isn't actually related to how large the software is, but rather the feeling of using it. When you use a non-framework library, it feels like using a wrench or a drill; it's a tool. When you use a framework, it feels like you're writing code inside it, not using it. Frameworks can be small. The term "microframework" exists for this exact reason.

Semantics aside, the existence of things with different philosophies doesn't immediately invalidate everything that doesn't give you the same tradeoffs. For one thing, Tailwind deals with declarative CSS output, not imperative modular code. I'm not saying that makes it stupid or anything, but it's very apples and oranges. There are very few JS libraries or frameworks that can offer starting-from-zero KiB JS; maybe Svelte comes close? Ironically, if we're talking about client side bundles, it seems as though Fresh actually does start with 0 KiB, as it does not default to shipping JS code to the client at all.

This doesn't feel like a rational discussion at all. It feels like it's just necessary to come up with a cynical take because there's a new JavaScript thing. In a few weeks there could be some Rust FRP webassembly UI thing that has a 1.2 MiB hello world and hardly anyone will care.