His vilification of these so-called "shadow jobs" boils down to this vague and indirect reference to an increase in "fatigue". I don't find any substance to this. The point of ATMs and ticket machines and self-service gas is that human labor is usually inefficient. You pay for human labor by the hour. It doesn't matter if the CPU time during that hour is 1 minute. In almost all cases, a human worker will entail wasted VARIABLE costs. On the other hand, if the bank buys too many ATMs, the waste is for the most part a fixed cost.
And notice, the quality of service can sometimes _improve_ with machines! E.g., without ATMs we would still have to be concerned about whether we could make it to the bank on time before it closed to withdraw cash or deposit a check. In all of the cases mentione, the combination of machine and human labor allows the seller to satisfy more customers at less cost. Now, it's possible that we are also sacrificing something. But to be honest, in all of the examples that he mentions, I personally do not feel any sacrifice.
What is plainly true, however, is the rise in such self service. And the question of how this affects us, is interesting. I would speculate that one of these effects is an increase in anti-social behavior.
Another thing is that if everyone at a location has to be serviced by a person, then everyone currently not being served have to wait in line for their turn. They're not doing shadow work, but they're equally improductive.
Airport check-in machines are a fantastic thing because it speeds up the process. The airport can have ten times as many machines as desks, and that means your check-in will be about ten times faster. That's a lot of time saved that you can use for something else.
And you can still have service personnel and machines at the same time. I can check-in at the desk or through a machine. I can withdraw money by going inside the bank, or use the ATM outside. I can do the self-checkout in a store, or have it done by a cashier, and so on.
I'm not sure the ATM is the best example, at least for simple transactions like withdrawing or depositing funds. Aside from the social interaction with a teller, using an ATM doesn't save me much time or work. Self-checkout kiosks at the grocery store, however, allow the business to push costs on the consumers because scanning and bagging my groceries does require more effort on my part. I'm not sure that is contributing to more fatigue (perhaps this is due to people working more hours?), however.
What is plainly true, however, is the rise in such self
service. And the question of how this affects us, is interesting. I would speculate that one of these effects is an increase in anti-social behavior.
And this, I suspect, is what Illich was most interested in. (I've not read this particular book, however).
The problem with 'Shadow Work' is that it rarely benefits the people who have to actually do the work.
My company has a homegrown A-B testing platform. Without getting too far into the technical details, the process typically occurred as follows: A business unit would suggest a performance increasing hypothesis to the statistical analyst ("let's change the font size from 12 to 14, I bet that'll increase conversions"), who would clarify the hypothesis into a statistically correct terms ("let's set 1% of our traffic to size 14 font and segment the resulting revenue this way") and submit a ticket to the engineering team, who would set up the test using XML, then ran a script that would convert that XML into MySQL insert statements, which populated a table that the web application would read from.
Then we had layoffs and engineers were canned. To mitigate some of the work for the engineering team's now reduced staff, I gave all the analysts the necessary permissions to set up and execute the XML -> MySQL translation themselves. On the one hand, they appreciate the direct control. On the other hand, they've fucked up production more than once with malformed XML and the like, which is something they never had to worry about before, which in turn has caused huge headaches for my team.
Is this 'shadow work'? All I know is that my company used to employ more people, and both engineers and analysts were happier. Now nobody is happy, even if the productivity per person is higher, except maybe our executives who have squeezed out more productivity out of fewer employees.
Hmm, maybe I should see what those OWS guys are babbling about after all.
There is a defensible reading of that story which goes "Our engineering and marketing teams stumbled into a ridiculously inefficient process to do something critical for the business. After a bit of reorganization, while the new process has some kinks in it, we're increasing sales faster than ever while simultaneously not wasting thousands of dollars using senior engineers as glorified typists."
n.b. I don't want to criticize engineering choices from afar, but if people can bork production with malformed XML, that suggests opportunity for further process improvement to either check XML or render it unnecessary. Visual Website Optimizer, for example, mostly abstracts that away.
P.P.S. Quantify the problem to management, fix it, get heavily rewarded. You could even use the proceeds to take a trip to Wall Street, if that floats your boat.
Interesting. I'd much rather have root on my machines, bag my own groceries, pump my own gas, find my own books and tickets on the internet, and drive my own car. Not only is it less expensive and more convenient, it is more egalitarian than ordering around clerks or gas station attendants. It is also more socially responsible, as you are less of a burden on society.
The author's position on "shadow work" appears to be opposition to productivity and self-reliance, along with a pining for servants and dependence.
In the middle comes the refrain "But instead, the computers are controlling us".
Does anyone here have a good understanding of that belief? I wonder whether it's universal, or correlates with being a non-programmer, or with growing up without computers, or with bad experiences due to poorly-designed user interfaces. I've haven't talked with enough people who share that feeling to figure it out.
Most times I see it stated as fact, but this article does attempt to justify it, though the explanations were unsatisfying. Perhaps the lawyer doesn't view bagging groceries as losing control and taking on extra work: it may be an improvement over passively waiting in line, which is its own kind of work. She could then say that the technology is letting her take control of checkout, instead of waiting for a cashier, which was the bottleneck that customers previously couldn't avoid no matter how much shadow work they were willing to do.
Computers don't control us, no, we control them. But for someone like a factory worker or call center rep, the computers might as well control them, because the humans in charge will gladly manage based on automatically-measured performance numbers without knowing or caring about what's actually happening.
The computers can track, measure and grade everything they do. For example, when I go to Target, I can't help but notice that their checkout screens have a pass/fail system grading whether the checker has processed the person quickly enough. In other places, computers may even make decisions on who to fire based on the rules fed to it. For example, the computer's report might say that employee #12345 has high average call lengths. They don't care if it's because that phone rep was unusually helpful. The computers enable them to enforce their policies to the letter. Even if the rules present no win situations at times, they'll just fire the guy for breaking the rules and hire someone new.
So like I said, the computers are never going to control us. We'd hack the damn things if necessary to do things right. But for the people at the bottom of the food chain, a computer might already be their boss.
" In 1998, the Internal Revenue Service estimated that taxpayers spent six billion hours per year on “tax compliance activities.” That’s serious shadow work, the equivalent of three million full-time jobs."
Does that mean that the U.S spends about 1% of its productive time as a population merely to comply with the tax code? If so, that's really an indication that the tax code is ridiculously over-complicated.
"Go into a Wal-Mart or Target or Staples and find someone to help you locate and choose a product."
I honestly have no problem flagging down a redshirt for help at Target. They're everywhere with their Secret Service headsets and automated customer service PA system.
Wal-mart, OTOH... well, there's a reason why I haven't gone there in almost 5 years, and the cockroaches crawling on the stock pallets and in the grocery aisles are but one.
This is a symptom of government policy. High employment taxes, workplace liability, and an inefficiently high minimum wage, combine to create an artificial demand constraint in the labor market.
Businesses substitute technology for workers, from salad bars to checkout kiosks.
Heck, sales and income taxes contribute to this. Why is Home Depot so busy on weekends with DIY-ers? Shouldn't an amateur's effective "wage" for finishing his basement be incredibly low compared to a professional with knowledge/tools/etc.? So low that he/she would gladly work a few more hours at the office rather than spending his weekend figuring out how to lay tile? The problem is that I am not taxed on my "earnings" from the weekend work I might perform around the house, but a professional is (unless paid under the table, of course). So, providing labor to myself is effectively subsidized. Furthering this is my employer's subsidy of my weekend labor in the form of health insurance, disability insurance, etc. The professional (or his boss) would have to pay for Workman's Comp insurance (at a pretty high rate for construction labor), but my weekday employer would foot the bill -- just as if I had hurt myself while out walking around the block.
Now, take into account the US's common labor arrangements -- salaried and hourly employment (as opposed to piece work, commissions, etc.). Let's say you are paid a fixed salary. The benefit of spending a Saturday in the office doing extra work to impress the boss has an uncertain payout far in the future -- one which might rationally be discounted. However, the benefit of finishing one's own basement instead of shelling out an extra few thousand in labor is tangible and much more immediate. It is no wonder mid-level salaried employees show-up at Home Depot on weekends. The lot for hourly employees is worse. For some strange reason, the US requires that they be paid 1.5x/hour for work beyond a 40 hour week. 2x on Sundays. This is a huge dis-incentive for an employer to offer his existing employees the opportunity to work weekends when business is heavy. It might be possible for someone to pick-up extra, part-time work in areas where he has expertise, but this work often is hard to come by. So, Home Depot flourishes and basements are finished with off-kilter walls.
Personally, I have had multi-month periods as a software contractor where a client said, "work as many hours as you can, please!" So, every hour not working had a real, easily-quantified opportunity cost. I would have been crazy to have mowed my own lawn. It would have been nice to have been able to purchase other "services" like a doctor's visit without a wait. I even tried to offer the doctor's office a premium to be seen in a high-priority queue, but most insurance plans don't allow such upcharges on top of pre-negotiated rates. You can probably look at my HN posting history and figure out the periods when I had effectively unlimited earning potential -- there are huge gaps where I barely had anything to say.
Yeah, the article was a little ridiculous for not mentioning this. The impact of obamacare and the ever increasing risk of getting sued as an employer are huge and growing disincentives to hire low skill labor.
On the other hand shadow work is exactly what empowers people:
1. Automation allows to DIY tasks that previously were too expensive to acquire in the market in exchange of a bit of your time.
2. People can spend their financial resources more wisely and achieve MORE. I think that the example of the gas station is striking, because people, given the choice might prefer a smaller and cheaper service.
I believe that those changes are the result of companies competing in a free market. They are the consequences of consumers choice and are beneficial.
Nonetheless, the article highlights a good point about one hidden cost of automation. A cost important to take into account in product/service design. If too high it would hinder market acceptance of a product.
Now I understand better why automation is less used by companies in their business. I would be interesting to understand what other subtleties and hidden cost should be taken into account.
On the other hand shadow work is exactly what empowers people: 1. Automation allows to DIY tasks that previously were too expensive to acquire in the market in exchange of a bit of your time.
Quite the opposite: this is all the dull, menial stuff that distracts people from their primary tasks. These are jobs that were "supposed to" get automated out of existence and didn't. The store has not automated the bagging of your groceries. This only frees up an employee by having you do it instead.
You can definitely see this in the workplace, where people are wasting time doing admin tasks that someone on a 1/3 of the salary could have done. Often they are slower at it too, due to less practice/interest.
Usually this is caused by job cuts, where an increase in low level employees could actually make the highly paid more productive.
Yeah, that is the point I never really understood. If you get people to fill up their own gas, that is one thing since it makes sense from a business perspective.
But why have a $200 lawyer do admin work? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Less employees equals less overhead. Less overhead means lower cost. Cost could be said to be "work" monetized. So less employees equals less work in the long run, shadow or not.
I used to work (circa 1989) at a pharmaceutical company that still had a typing pool. So if I needed to write up a technical document, I was expected to provide a handwritten manuscript to the pool, and then would receive back a draft typed copy, which I would annotate, rinse and repeat (with a combination of my terrible handwriting and technical vocabulary, this could be 3 or 4 repeats). This seemed totally ridiculous at the time - I had access to a terminal and would have spent less time typing it myself once than this process took.
At the same company, meetings typically had an official "minute taker" in attendance and a couple of days later our in-trays (physical) would contain beautifully typed and formatted minutes. I now work at a large bureaucratic software company, typically the person taking notes at a meeting: a) does a terrible job; b) earns upwards of $100K; c) contributes little meaningful to the meeting (a and c are sometimes inversely correlated). Having a pool of people who were good at taking notes and weren't attempting or pretending to participate at the same time might end up being more cost effective
Interaction with someone working checkout can barely even be thought of as human interaction most of the time, the way they generally say the exact lines the shop has told them to.
I read this and didn't love the term "Shadow Work" because I found it imprecise. I have always used the term "transaction costs" to account for the additional requirements of doing XYZ. So with airport kiosks, the benefits of being waited on by a ticket agent (if that is a benefit) are vastly outweighed by the saved transaction costs of waiting in a huge long line. Nor did the article address the other reasons that automation is good for business: customers appreciate saving time, and will pay for it.
It is true that the things that were supposed to save us time create new transaction costs (otherwise "email bankruptcy" and "inbox zero" would not now be the lingo du jour). But I think this article needs to be way more nuanced to address the difference between shadow work and the benefits derived therefrom.
In my profession (engineering consulting to VoIP companies), I hear this a lot from customers who are building new companies or products and emphasise that what they need has to be "low-touch", and that the "user experience" needs to be "self-service oriented".
This is generally a euphemism for, "I don't want to hire real support staff", and to some extent, is understandable given the low margins and race to commoditisation in the general VoIP service provider space.
And to some extent, the self-service aspect is objectively more efficient. I wouldn't want to call someone like Vitelity to order my DIDs; I'd rather just order them myself instantly on the web.
But there are certain things that you'd rather call or e-mail someone to open a request to address, and then just let go of the problem and let someone else solve it. I think porting requests rank fairly high on that list, although most of the bureaucratic complications with that are imposed by regulatory requirements--meaning, the task isn't _inherently_ "high-touch". But the point is, these, too, are things that companies are trying to keep from crossing the customer-vendor barrier.
I think anyone that can figure out how to get their customers to pay a premium for good service (at a large scale), but still actually provide said good service, wins.
One aspect of self service that I particularly like is the alignment of incentives. I'm incentivized to bag my groceries / deposit my checks quickly, because I want to get out of there. Employees (esp. in low end service jobs) are generally unconcerned with speed or quality, because they're making $6 / hr.
Much of the time I'd simply prefer to self-serve, because it's more pleasant and faster for myself. (Note that grocery checkers don't really fit this category in the States, because they tend to be fairly well paid.)
one interesting aspect of this is that workers often need to maintain capital goods; equipment to do this 'shadow work' - if you want a job in most parts of the country, you need a car. But guess what? that car isn't tax deductible, even if you only use it to commute to and from work.
The interesting bit here is that some companies, especially here in silicon valley, seem to be putting effort into doing more and more of this 'shadow work' for you and thus paying for it out of pre-tax money. Google's free food is the prime example, but nearly every large silicon valley employer not only will pay for public transit out of pre-tax monies, but will also provide shuttles from the train station to the office.
A company can also provide a 'company car' but, well, the tax implications of that get complicated. If you get audited and you didn't keep a careful log of personal travel, (and commuting to and from work is personal travel) and pay income tax on the miles you used for personal stuff? you are in deep trouble; this is why I own my vehicles outside of my corporation; I get reimbursed for business-related miles by the business and handle gas and maintenance out of post-tax dollars.
I had never heard of the term Shadow work before this article. I'm am curious how much of my time is focused on shadow work. Probably the majority of my weekends are spent cleaning, shopping for the next week, etc. How much money would it cost me to get my time back?
I think the article makes a good point about the disappearance of service jobs. But then, I'm one of those "the jobs are disappearing, it's time we renegotiated the social contract" people.
How would you renegotiate the social contract? Do you have a draft of a plan? If we keep our monetary/debit systems similar to what we have, do you feel there is a need to redistribute equity/money/capital? If so, how would we go about this?
Jobs die out when they're no longer needed. In all of the examples provided in the article, better (in my opinion) alternatives displaced the service jobs.
[+] [-] saucerful|14 years ago|reply
His vilification of these so-called "shadow jobs" boils down to this vague and indirect reference to an increase in "fatigue". I don't find any substance to this. The point of ATMs and ticket machines and self-service gas is that human labor is usually inefficient. You pay for human labor by the hour. It doesn't matter if the CPU time during that hour is 1 minute. In almost all cases, a human worker will entail wasted VARIABLE costs. On the other hand, if the bank buys too many ATMs, the waste is for the most part a fixed cost.
And notice, the quality of service can sometimes _improve_ with machines! E.g., without ATMs we would still have to be concerned about whether we could make it to the bank on time before it closed to withdraw cash or deposit a check. In all of the cases mentione, the combination of machine and human labor allows the seller to satisfy more customers at less cost. Now, it's possible that we are also sacrificing something. But to be honest, in all of the examples that he mentions, I personally do not feel any sacrifice.
What is plainly true, however, is the rise in such self service. And the question of how this affects us, is interesting. I would speculate that one of these effects is an increase in anti-social behavior.
[+] [-] henrikschroder|14 years ago|reply
Airport check-in machines are a fantastic thing because it speeds up the process. The airport can have ten times as many machines as desks, and that means your check-in will be about ten times faster. That's a lot of time saved that you can use for something else.
And you can still have service personnel and machines at the same time. I can check-in at the desk or through a machine. I can withdraw money by going inside the bank, or use the ATM outside. I can do the self-checkout in a store, or have it done by a cashier, and so on.
[+] [-] bmj|14 years ago|reply
What is plainly true, however, is the rise in such self service. And the question of how this affects us, is interesting. I would speculate that one of these effects is an increase in anti-social behavior.
And this, I suspect, is what Illich was most interested in. (I've not read this particular book, however).
[+] [-] nhashem|14 years ago|reply
My company has a homegrown A-B testing platform. Without getting too far into the technical details, the process typically occurred as follows: A business unit would suggest a performance increasing hypothesis to the statistical analyst ("let's change the font size from 12 to 14, I bet that'll increase conversions"), who would clarify the hypothesis into a statistically correct terms ("let's set 1% of our traffic to size 14 font and segment the resulting revenue this way") and submit a ticket to the engineering team, who would set up the test using XML, then ran a script that would convert that XML into MySQL insert statements, which populated a table that the web application would read from.
Then we had layoffs and engineers were canned. To mitigate some of the work for the engineering team's now reduced staff, I gave all the analysts the necessary permissions to set up and execute the XML -> MySQL translation themselves. On the one hand, they appreciate the direct control. On the other hand, they've fucked up production more than once with malformed XML and the like, which is something they never had to worry about before, which in turn has caused huge headaches for my team.
Is this 'shadow work'? All I know is that my company used to employ more people, and both engineers and analysts were happier. Now nobody is happy, even if the productivity per person is higher, except maybe our executives who have squeezed out more productivity out of fewer employees.
Hmm, maybe I should see what those OWS guys are babbling about after all.
[+] [-] patio11|14 years ago|reply
n.b. I don't want to criticize engineering choices from afar, but if people can bork production with malformed XML, that suggests opportunity for further process improvement to either check XML or render it unnecessary. Visual Website Optimizer, for example, mostly abstracts that away.
P.P.S. Quantify the problem to management, fix it, get heavily rewarded. You could even use the proceeds to take a trip to Wall Street, if that floats your boat.
[+] [-] temphn|14 years ago|reply
The author's position on "shadow work" appears to be opposition to productivity and self-reliance, along with a pining for servants and dependence.
[+] [-] ashearer|14 years ago|reply
Does anyone here have a good understanding of that belief? I wonder whether it's universal, or correlates with being a non-programmer, or with growing up without computers, or with bad experiences due to poorly-designed user interfaces. I've haven't talked with enough people who share that feeling to figure it out.
Most times I see it stated as fact, but this article does attempt to justify it, though the explanations were unsatisfying. Perhaps the lawyer doesn't view bagging groceries as losing control and taking on extra work: it may be an improvement over passively waiting in line, which is its own kind of work. She could then say that the technology is letting her take control of checkout, instead of waiting for a cashier, which was the bottleneck that customers previously couldn't avoid no matter how much shadow work they were willing to do.
[+] [-] Natsu|14 years ago|reply
The computers can track, measure and grade everything they do. For example, when I go to Target, I can't help but notice that their checkout screens have a pass/fail system grading whether the checker has processed the person quickly enough. In other places, computers may even make decisions on who to fire based on the rules fed to it. For example, the computer's report might say that employee #12345 has high average call lengths. They don't care if it's because that phone rep was unusually helpful. The computers enable them to enforce their policies to the letter. Even if the rules present no win situations at times, they'll just fire the guy for breaking the rules and hire someone new.
So like I said, the computers are never going to control us. We'd hack the damn things if necessary to do things right. But for the people at the bottom of the food chain, a computer might already be their boss.
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] nagrom|14 years ago|reply
Does that mean that the U.S spends about 1% of its productive time as a population merely to comply with the tax code? If so, that's really an indication that the tax code is ridiculously over-complicated.
[+] [-] TruthElixirX|14 years ago|reply
I cannot imagine how long it takes someone with property, 401ks, etc.
[+] [-] recoiledsnake|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] muhfuhkuh|14 years ago|reply
I honestly have no problem flagging down a redshirt for help at Target. They're everywhere with their Secret Service headsets and automated customer service PA system.
Wal-mart, OTOH... well, there's a reason why I haven't gone there in almost 5 years, and the cockroaches crawling on the stock pallets and in the grocery aisles are but one.
[+] [-] philwelch|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ansgri|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Newgy|14 years ago|reply
Businesses substitute technology for workers, from salad bars to checkout kiosks.
[+] [-] ShabbyDoo|14 years ago|reply
Now, take into account the US's common labor arrangements -- salaried and hourly employment (as opposed to piece work, commissions, etc.). Let's say you are paid a fixed salary. The benefit of spending a Saturday in the office doing extra work to impress the boss has an uncertain payout far in the future -- one which might rationally be discounted. However, the benefit of finishing one's own basement instead of shelling out an extra few thousand in labor is tangible and much more immediate. It is no wonder mid-level salaried employees show-up at Home Depot on weekends. The lot for hourly employees is worse. For some strange reason, the US requires that they be paid 1.5x/hour for work beyond a 40 hour week. 2x on Sundays. This is a huge dis-incentive for an employer to offer his existing employees the opportunity to work weekends when business is heavy. It might be possible for someone to pick-up extra, part-time work in areas where he has expertise, but this work often is hard to come by. So, Home Depot flourishes and basements are finished with off-kilter walls.
Personally, I have had multi-month periods as a software contractor where a client said, "work as many hours as you can, please!" So, every hour not working had a real, easily-quantified opportunity cost. I would have been crazy to have mowed my own lawn. It would have been nice to have been able to purchase other "services" like a doctor's visit without a wait. I even tried to offer the doctor's office a premium to be seen in a high-priority queue, but most insurance plans don't allow such upcharges on top of pre-negotiated rates. You can probably look at my HN posting history and figure out the periods when I had effectively unlimited earning potential -- there are huge gaps where I barely had anything to say.
[+] [-] rubashov|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] irrationalfab|14 years ago|reply
I believe that those changes are the result of companies competing in a free market. They are the consequences of consumers choice and are beneficial.
Nonetheless, the article highlights a good point about one hidden cost of automation. A cost important to take into account in product/service design. If too high it would hinder market acceptance of a product.
Now I understand better why automation is less used by companies in their business. I would be interesting to understand what other subtleties and hidden cost should be taken into account.
[+] [-] dhume|14 years ago|reply
Quite the opposite: this is all the dull, menial stuff that distracts people from their primary tasks. These are jobs that were "supposed to" get automated out of existence and didn't. The store has not automated the bagging of your groceries. This only frees up an employee by having you do it instead.
[+] [-] rythie|14 years ago|reply
Usually this is caused by job cuts, where an increase in low level employees could actually make the highly paid more productive.
[+] [-] tomjen3|14 years ago|reply
But why have a $200 lawyer do admin work? That makes no sense whatsoever.
[+] [-] bennyfreshness|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pacaro|14 years ago|reply
At the same company, meetings typically had an official "minute taker" in attendance and a couple of days later our in-trays (physical) would contain beautifully typed and formatted minutes. I now work at a large bureaucratic software company, typically the person taking notes at a meeting: a) does a terrible job; b) earns upwards of $100K; c) contributes little meaningful to the meeting (a and c are sometimes inversely correlated). Having a pool of people who were good at taking notes and weren't attempting or pretending to participate at the same time might end up being more cost effective
[+] [-] maigret|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ZipCordManiac|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robryan|14 years ago|reply
It's also usually a faster to do it yourself.
[+] [-] RachelSklar|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abalashov|14 years ago|reply
This is generally a euphemism for, "I don't want to hire real support staff", and to some extent, is understandable given the low margins and race to commoditisation in the general VoIP service provider space.
And to some extent, the self-service aspect is objectively more efficient. I wouldn't want to call someone like Vitelity to order my DIDs; I'd rather just order them myself instantly on the web.
But there are certain things that you'd rather call or e-mail someone to open a request to address, and then just let go of the problem and let someone else solve it. I think porting requests rank fairly high on that list, although most of the bureaucratic complications with that are imposed by regulatory requirements--meaning, the task isn't _inherently_ "high-touch". But the point is, these, too, are things that companies are trying to keep from crossing the customer-vendor barrier.
I think anyone that can figure out how to get their customers to pay a premium for good service (at a large scale), but still actually provide said good service, wins.
[+] [-] Vandy_Travis|14 years ago|reply
Much of the time I'd simply prefer to self-serve, because it's more pleasant and faster for myself. (Note that grocery checkers don't really fit this category in the States, because they tend to be fairly well paid.)
[+] [-] lsc|14 years ago|reply
The interesting bit here is that some companies, especially here in silicon valley, seem to be putting effort into doing more and more of this 'shadow work' for you and thus paying for it out of pre-tax money. Google's free food is the prime example, but nearly every large silicon valley employer not only will pay for public transit out of pre-tax monies, but will also provide shuttles from the train station to the office.
A company can also provide a 'company car' but, well, the tax implications of that get complicated. If you get audited and you didn't keep a careful log of personal travel, (and commuting to and from work is personal travel) and pay income tax on the miles you used for personal stuff? you are in deep trouble; this is why I own my vehicles outside of my corporation; I get reimbursed for business-related miles by the business and handle gas and maintenance out of post-tax dollars.
[+] [-] sp332|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brehardin|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeffool|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jhancock|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RandallBrown|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rythie|14 years ago|reply