Adam probably didn't mean to be offensive, but that is perhaps worse. The folk who laughed at the joke weren't meaning to be offensive either, but again, that's not a good thing.
There are no easy ways to deal with a situation like this - one group will advocate a quiet word with the speaker, and while that educates him, it does little for all the other potential future speakers in the room who learn from that session (or worse, put the joke away for use later on.) A public display of offense makes for an uncomfortable moment, which in turn should lead to at least more awareness that some material is offensive.
Incidentally, one measure of how offensive it is, is to replace the group in question with the most "politically incorrect" group you can. So had the phrase been "explain it to a black man" would it be funny? I think perhaps not.
As a rule you should never make fun of any group, of which you're not a member, from the podium. Just. Don't. Do. It. Self-deprecating humour is almost never offensive, even to the group you're a part of. Well almost. Clearly we can all imagine some exceptions to that rule too.
Yes the computing industry is enormously sexist, and it's behooves both men and women to point out instances of this sexism when they occur. Only by being vigilent can we educate people. Small steps that hopefully will lead to an erradication of this.
Though the situation is quite bad in the industry, and female developers might be feeling alienated but in this particular scenario, I feel that the speaker is been bashed out on proportion. The speaker is reported to have publicly apologized at talk and later of twitter. Still continuously and personally blaming/quoting him as done by Shifra and later commentators on the linked thread seems unnecessary.
Quotes like "Weasel talk, +Adam Bien." really make the conversation less friendly and less fruitful.
Incidentally, one measure of how offensive it is, is to replace the group in question with the most "politically incorrect" group you can. So had the phrase been "explain it to a black man" would it be funny? I think perhaps not.
"Explain it to Java Programmers" or "Explain it to your mom/dad" are acceptable and are used quite often. The former is considered a really amusing anecdote and used really frequently at Python Conferences. Now, I was a Java developer sitting in a Python conference who was already familiar and decently comfortable with the fundamentals being presented on stage - the presenter was not a Java developer (so not a self deprecating joke) and still if I stand up and make the person apologize and then repeatedly blame him of languagism (?), it would not be welcomed by both Java or Python developers!
Making fun of/uttering/referencing prejudices targeting women == Sexist.
Using prejudices targeting men == Witty and Feminist.
I am a man. I am not a rapist looking for victim. I am not a bumbling buffoon who can't change a light bulb without falling off a ladder. I do not beat children and women.
I work hard, I go and do risky and unpleasant shit (digging through human excrement to unclog the sewage, etc.) so the rest of my family doesn't have to.
I also make more than I spend and generally try to make myself as useful as possible. I also like kids, though I don't have any of my own yet, I like to hang out with other peoples kids.
And I am sick to tears of my gender being portrayed as monsters preying for our next victim.
What on earth are you talking about? At which technical conference were such accusations or jokes about men? Where in the technical community are men characterized as buffoons or monsters to general feminist approval?
1) when have you actually encountered sexism as a man outside some women's club meeting? As a man myself, I only get portrayed as a rapist in the minds of male redditors.
2) It's generally considered less offensive to make fun of the people in charge, for obvious reasons. By and large, men still run the country. Politicians, bankers, and judges are all overwhelmingly male. Make fun of a man in a commercial for being stupid? It's funny because the CEO of the advertising is almost certainly a man. Make fun of a woman for being stupid? It's less funny because as recently as when our parents were growing up we actually did make such commercials, except we meant it and actively excluded women from the workforce. We're not far enough removed from "math is hard" Barbie dolls to find humor in poking fun at the intelligence of women. Too soon.
I agree and sympathize -- insofar as you accept that you've taken nothing away from the original posting.
Sexism cuts in both directions. IMHO, M-to-F sexism is much more prevalent, more damaging (for example to women's career prospects), and a more serious issue, but as you complain, F-to-M sexism is real, is (in some circles) more widely socially acceptable, and is sort of insidious. I admire it when men or women stand up to either sort of sexism.
I especially admire this woman's stand. She stood up alone, in a room full of men who had laughed, and calmly demanded to be treated with respect. I submit that she's a role model for anyone who faces discrimination of any type and any severity.
I certainly understand how frustrated you are with the fact that it seems OK to bash men, however I think you're missing the point in this case. Would it be fair to say that you'd prefer not to be portrayed as a "bumbling buffoon"?
Just because some see it as an acceptable practice to portray men as idiots, doesn't give men the right stereotypes to other groups.
The comment in this case was unacceptable, the response, in my opinion, is warranted. It is far too common and accepted that a comment like this about women is OK. How men are stereotyped has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong.
Y'know, no one here is saying that you shouldn't receive the same accolades as Shifra for stopping a talk in the middle and calling out the speaker for making a sexist joke about men.
When that happens, post about it. But until then, this comment does nothing but derail the conversation.
His joke compared communicating with an alien to communicating with a woman. And then according to her own comment she decided to take extreme offense and disrupt the entire conference.
>"I actually got up and made him apologize for his stupid and offensive joke. On the way out, one woman thanked me and one man told me I should "relax." (I told him he should shut up.)"
I would never, ever want this sort of person at a conference or a workplace. Equating the communication with opposite sex to an alien is a common, common theme. Reaching down, coming up with the worst possible way to take it and then cutting him off, disrupting the conference, gloating online is just bad behavior. She even recounts her belligerence to a fellow member of the audience who probably just wanted to hear the presentation.
Explaining to the speaker afterwards how his words could be taken would probably have had a genuinely beneficial effect. He might even feel some empathy for what she had to say and come up with a new joke. But he probably feels very little empathy for her at all after her attempt to turn a molehill into a shitstorm.
It's exactly this sort of PC-motivated antagonism that I miss least about America.
This type of reaction seems a little extreme to me, it was just a silly joke, I wonder if the opposite would have happened how would the men have reacted?
By all means women speakers should make similar jokes instead of overreacting.
I get the feeling that some women just can't take a joke. Of course there are more serious cases, but stuff like this should be ignored.
I understand that the lack of women in tech(especially open source) is a barrier to entry for women, but reactions like these only make that barrier wider. I once read a story about someone who said will never hire a black person, because if he ever fires him for some reason, the guy will come back with his lawyer and say he was fired because he was black.
>> I get the feeling that some women just can't take a joke.
Your sentiment will no doubt be shared by many. The point with offense though is it's not up to the joke-teller to determine if a joke is offensive or not. It either offends a group, or it does not.
You're right, Adam just made a silly joke. You see it as a silly joke. However, and this is the point, now that you've been educated to the fact that the joke was offensive, what is your response?
Your reaction, that they should not have been offended, is unreasonable, because the joke was not at your expense. Would you become the aribter for racial jokes? Native American jokes? How about child pornography jokes? Religious jokes? Why then jokes about a minority gender group?
I suspect, and I mean this with respect, we could find some sensitive area in your life, or anyone's life which would be "just a funny joke" to some, but which are deeply offensive to others. Yes, we live in a "politically correct" world, but there are still lines as to what is ok, and what is not.
And the receiver is the one that determines those lines, not the sender.
My rule of thumb: if you're going to make sexist jokes, make sure to make jokes about both sexes near the same time so you're discriminating equally.
What I found funny about the talk's comment after listening to it, was the reference to tons of conferences getting freaked out over potential sexism. I believe for OSCon some speakers were threatening to withdraw their talks since O'Reilly hadn't put out an official "Sexism--not okay" statement yet. (Which they promptly got around to.) The note to the reactions was the real joke for me, not the sexism.
Nope. It's joke after joke after joke, and also inappropriate behavior in the workplace, in conferences, in pubs. Day after day. What is just one post in HN for us happens constantly to a lot of women in our industry.
Agreed, the women in the audience weren't offended by the joke. They were offended by the laughter.
No one cares if one idiot is sexist, racist or whatever. They care that the industry is a boys club for men with the social maturity of 12 year olds and it's absolutely pathetic when there's guys on HN saying essentially "I don't get whats wrong with that joke".
I don't care if I get downmodded for saying this: HN is the best community on the web because of the sheer intelligence displayed on a daily basis by our regular commenters. If our regulars genuinely think there's something okay with this Adam guys public idiocy then I've lost a huge amount of respect for this community. In fact if the IT community really thinks this way, then PG should probably quit his efforts to better it and use his great talent elsewhere that needs it.
You're a scumbag when you make fun of the vast minority. You're a comedian when you make fun of the vast majority. Adam isn't a comedian, he wasn't telling a joke he was making a public display of patheticness.
Calling out the speaker and making him apologize - Gutsy move, well done
Making an official compliant to the organizers for story about a mildly offensive joke that was never actually made at said conference - Bordering on overreaction but maybe ok
Writing a G+ post "...JavaOne Incident" publicly slamming said person repeatedly in spite of multiple apologies - Overreaction gone nuts (possibly hurting the original cause - leading to - "this woman can't take a harmless joke" in the minds of more than a few people)
Ageism/sexism/*ism needs to be certainly discouraged but proportional response has its own merits.
I heard many times women making jokes about men and especially their common incompetence in fashion. Interestingly, I never thought about that as sexism, although I should.
If a woman at a conference for some female-dominated profession (say, nursing or elementary-school teaching) made a joke from the podium about how incompetent men were at that profession, it would be just as inappropriate.
Are you suggesting that slighting the intellect of women and doing likewise in respect of the fashion sense of a (minority/majority?) of men are equatable wrongs?
And if you are (p.s. they're not), then what relevance does it have to this topic?
Should the original author not have taken offence the 'joke' she heard during a work conference because at various points history an unspecified number of women laughed at the shirt you were wearing?
Or do you accept that the world has moved on from these sort of visuals in advertising, and thus it is not unreasonable to expect the same to apply to the telling of [____]ist jokes in professional/work settings?
There seem to be two kinds of sexism in IT: politically incorrect and insensitive jokes (basically frat boy culture), and a semi-underground culture of men who think it is ok to stalk women online and pass them over for promotions.
Both are bad but the second is far worse. "The JavaOne incident" is probably the wrong battle to fight. Regardless of whether Adam's joke was appropriate, attacking him for it provokes a defensive reaction from the frat boy culture (I'm going to keep calling it frat boy culture for lack of a better term). Some people won't see the big deal about how the joke was offensive and will instead be repulsed by the reaction to it. In fact, Adam's joke seems to be just the kind of push back you would expect from a frat boy tired of being told to be more sensitive to his female colleagues.
Most men are like this. We make inappropriate jokes to our friends and aren't afraid of offending them because they give as good as they get. When a woman complains about this the hypothetical frat boy gets defensive because now he can't "be himself". It creates a culture of us vs. them which is not at all healthy.
The real creeps thrive in an us vs. them environment. Now they feel justified to harras women. They go out of their way not to hire women, because "all women do is complain". They can get away with, because the average rank and file frat guy doesn't feel any need to stand up for the feminist who has aligned herself against him.
Men don't generally spend their entire lives being told that they're less able to do a job, so jokes targeted at men are generally less offensive. Women in the technology industry have generally spent a significant part of their career being told that women are less good at it, and so perpetuating that perception (by implying that women are, in general, less capable of understanding technical subjects than men) is offensive.
Argument to symmetry is only effective if both groups are equal. That's clearly not the case here. If you want symmetry, ask male nurses whether they think they find jokes about them having somehow given up their masculinity for their career are amusing.
If you want symmetry, ask male nurses whether they think they find jokes about them having somehow given up their masculinity for their career are amusing.
Two of my martial arts instructors (as well as a student) work as male nurses for their day job. They make such jokes themselves, so I assume they find them amusing.
Of course, it's easier to laugh at such jokes when they obviously don't apply to you.
A lot of the arguments I hear about why making jokes of women in computer fields is wrong is that these jokes make women (and some men) uncomfortable which is irreproachably wrong.
I couldn't respond to the thread directly on google because I was uncomfortable expressing any sympathy for Adam. I felt people I know would judge me in a negative light if they saw it in their feed. I feel here, the thin layer of anonymity/indirection is enough to say this small tidbit.
I don't think Adam woke up that morning, or any morning in fact, and thought to himself that he wants to hurt or harm anyone, physically or emotionally. I think Adam is a good person as are the vastly overwhelming majority of the human population.
I feel the continuation of being hostile towards him by some posters (including Shifra despite accepting the apology) after he apologized is unwarranted and furthermore, unproductive. Adam ate a huge piece of humble pie by posting that, regardless of whether the joke was meant in good faith or not and for others to come back with more negativity just encourages others that make a similar mistake in the future to not acknowledge it as such. People that want to participate in a reasonable debate focused on results can have their voices oppressed by a feeling of discomfort.
I'm not sure if I have anything of real value to add to the women in IT issue (and I'm sure most people that do also doubt the value of their own ideas), but I can say I am one person who is dissuaded of trying to help the issue because I don't want to offend people or alienate them and make them uncomfortable.
I feel the continuation of being hostile towards him by some posters (including Shifra despite accepting the apology) after he apologized is unwarranted and furthermore, unproductive.
I went through 22 months of withdrawal from medication fairly publicly while a member of an email list. I was incapable of keeping both feet out of my mouth and it seemed to not matter how hard I tried, things just came out all wrong. I wrote many heart-felt, sincere apologies. I had no agenda in terms of my public reputation or whatever. My only intent was to take genuine responsibility for my actions in spite of the burden I was living with and to try to take away whatever hurt I had done.
The result? I became the list scapegoat and if some asshole attacked me out of the blue for no apparent reason on some flimsy excuse, the entire list went "there she goes again!" It's been, oh, maybe six or eight years since then. Some of those folks have never forgiven me. I no longer feel responsible for their on-going hostility. They have a personal issue.
I'm a lot less apologetic than I used to be. Someone once said (in essence) that real justice must mean justice for both sides.
The comment the speaker made was in poor taste and it was inappropriate. Simple as that.
The speaker should recognize that and simply say as much.
Not a lot more needs to be said. There's no way to defend or explain the comment.
And as for @DuncanIdaho who thinks this is vilifying all men. No, it's just calling out a recurring trend at tech conferences to do things which make women feel unwelcome. That's wrong and needs to stop.
So let me get this right. Adam originally titled a slide "Explain it to a woman" and got criticism for it being sexist, so he changed it. So in front of a convention audience he decided to tell everyone this anecdote and was too stupid to predict how this would go over. Wow.
If you tell 10 people and you get enough shit that you have to change a title. Don't tell 1000 and expect a better response. I don't think the big news here is that this guy is sexist, because I honestly doubt he is. I think the big news is that this guy is a fucking idiot.
Here's a heads up to everyone who doesn't know "why the women are offended". It's not that he made the joke, it's that people laughed. Sexism isn't offensive, it's the culture that's offensive. 1 guy thinking women are stupid is just pathetic, it's that people agree with him and think there's nothing wrong with it.
Every time I hear of incidents like this all I can think is that these are pathetic little men who haven't grown up socially since middle school. It's that they've allowed themselves to be so socially isolated that in their group they get away with sexism.
I work in construction, it's a 99% male industry and yes sexist jokes get made between the guys. What happens though when a woman comes along who can do the job is that they get 10 times the respect. Why? Because when you physically are the weaker sex, it takes a lot of character to balls up and get the job done. I like when women come into the industry because they actually want to learn and work. I don't like when guys come into the industry because they're lazy idiots looking for enough cash to buy more drugs or to work enough time to get on unemployment for another 6 months.
Women coming into IT should be exalted, because when they're the 1% it means that 99% of them got into the business to try to become great. When you're 99% of the people in the industry, it means 98% of you are simply there to earn a pay check.
I totally agree with what you're saying about minority group entrants into industries dominated by another group - and I've seen this myself, they are generally quite talented and driven. However I think this comes at the cost of being scrutinised to a MUCH higher degree than everyone else (lets not argue chicken and egg here).
A friend of mine put it perfectly - "when you're amongst the dominant group, you can get away with being mediocre" (i.e. the 98% you're referring to). Meaning that when you're the minority group - your every move will probably be scrutinised/analysed/categorised more closely.
That said - I'm not sure if the personal attacks ("fucking idiot") are completely warranted here (though I suspect you wrote that in the heat of the moment). We all go through learning experiences, some of our learnings just happen to be on a much larger scale than others (and for Adam this was unfortunate). I know I've certainly offended people without meaning to ("it wouldn't have offended my friend Joe - and he's Asian too!"), but now I've learnt the fine art of holding my tongue with regard to such jokes amongst crowds that I don't know too well... sure, I guess I was an "idiot" too in that moment, but no more or less of an idiot than Adam here - despite the difference in scale.
This is definitely wrong. But the other side of the story is women make sexist jokes about men, all the time (fashion, shoes etc), nobody complains about that, why the double standard?
Most racism and sexism appears mildly offensive to those who are racist and sexist. If you watch a non-US television station with subtitles (or if you understand the language), you may be very surprised to see the amount of racism and sexism (depending on the country) that occurs regularly.
It's easier to see it when it's outside of our own culture. It's often very hard to see the significance when it's coming from the people that we identify with.
I was not at the JavaOne talk but the statement made is clear. I understand why these statements can be made. If a technical person is boring and goes on enough dates, it is easier to blame the opposite sex rather than blaming himself or herself. If a person is comparing women to space aliens, that probably says it all. It's easier to say that 'they' are space aliens rather than admitting that dating makes him feel like a space alien.
He could have easily made his point without reference to a space alien. He could have said: explain it to a nontechnical person or explain it to a child. These points become more clear, if we focus on the point on hand and the best way to express it in a non-offensive way.
May be it is time for conference organizers to explicitly make it clear that sexist, racist etc behavior won't be tolerated. If one makes an inappropriate joke on the stage, ban that person for the next 1-2 years from the conference or something.
This should apply equally to both men AND women (and transgender etc). People are naive, if they think only men make sexist jokes.
However, if someone apologizes for stupid behavior, I don't see a point in continuously making noise about his/her behavior, even after the apology. This only adds noise, and doesn't contribute anything.
One of the early comments says that women don't study engineering because of stuff like this. While I agree this attitude is a problem and the joke was tasteless, is that really the reason? I just can't see a young person rejecting a field because it's too sexist. It could be a reason for switching to a different field, though. I wonder what percentage of women who start in an engineering discipline end up somewhere else.
"I just can't see a young person rejecting a field because it's too sexist"
In the field of law (which is my original background) you can pretty much walk into any sizeable firm, look around for the female partners and know you have identified the family law or employment law team.
Is this because all women who become lawyers have a burning desire to handle divorces or employment tribunals?
Perhaps?
Or perhaps was it the case that historically law firms (then run exclusively by men) were most willing to admit females into the partnership in areas deemed "feminine" before they did likewise for macho stuff like construction or commercial litigation. Thereafter, a meaningful % of female trainees looked around on their first day and figured out where their most likely root to a partnership lay. And so the cycle perpetuated.
That this cycle is increasingly being broken in the legal sector is, I'd argue, as much because of the sheer weight of numbers (more than 50% of law grads are women), as it is down to a more enlightened approach by male partners.
In the abstract, I'd argue that it is not sexism that puts people off choosing a career path, but rather it is a combination of not wanting to fight against the current (not everyone fancies being a trailblazer) as well as the innate human desire to belong to a tribe that physically resembles themselves.
Or to put it another way, I greatly enjoy the company of women, but if I had walked into a lecture theatre and been the only guy present, I'd have felt very much that I was in the wrong room no matter how much I loved the subject (or the attention!)
(Edit: Despite what I wrote in the last paragraph, I must acknowledge that currently I am working in a 4 person startup, three of whom are female including the technical lead.)
If all your potential role models have left the industry because they found the social atmosphere uncomfortable, it's going to have a pretty profound effect on the number of women who'll study it in the first place. Strong role models are important.
I could certainly see a young woman rejecting software engineering because it's "for men", and a sexist atmosphere certainly contributes to that perception.
[+] [-] bruce511|14 years ago|reply
There are no easy ways to deal with a situation like this - one group will advocate a quiet word with the speaker, and while that educates him, it does little for all the other potential future speakers in the room who learn from that session (or worse, put the joke away for use later on.) A public display of offense makes for an uncomfortable moment, which in turn should lead to at least more awareness that some material is offensive.
Incidentally, one measure of how offensive it is, is to replace the group in question with the most "politically incorrect" group you can. So had the phrase been "explain it to a black man" would it be funny? I think perhaps not.
As a rule you should never make fun of any group, of which you're not a member, from the podium. Just. Don't. Do. It. Self-deprecating humour is almost never offensive, even to the group you're a part of. Well almost. Clearly we can all imagine some exceptions to that rule too.
Yes the computing industry is enormously sexist, and it's behooves both men and women to point out instances of this sexism when they occur. Only by being vigilent can we educate people. Small steps that hopefully will lead to an erradication of this.
well done Shifra.
[+] [-] mayanksinghal|14 years ago|reply
Incidentally, one measure of how offensive it is, is to replace the group in question with the most "politically incorrect" group you can. So had the phrase been "explain it to a black man" would it be funny? I think perhaps not. "Explain it to Java Programmers" or "Explain it to your mom/dad" are acceptable and are used quite often. The former is considered a really amusing anecdote and used really frequently at Python Conferences. Now, I was a Java developer sitting in a Python conference who was already familiar and decently comfortable with the fundamentals being presented on stage - the presenter was not a Java developer (so not a self deprecating joke) and still if I stand up and make the person apologize and then repeatedly blame him of languagism (?), it would not be welcomed by both Java or Python developers!
[edit: typos]
[+] [-] DuncanIdaho|14 years ago|reply
Using prejudices targeting men == Witty and Feminist.
I am a man. I am not a rapist looking for victim. I am not a bumbling buffoon who can't change a light bulb without falling off a ladder. I do not beat children and women.
I work hard, I go and do risky and unpleasant shit (digging through human excrement to unclog the sewage, etc.) so the rest of my family doesn't have to.
I also make more than I spend and generally try to make myself as useful as possible. I also like kids, though I don't have any of my own yet, I like to hang out with other peoples kids.
And I am sick to tears of my gender being portrayed as monsters preying for our next victim.
[+] [-] dgabriel|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rayiner|14 years ago|reply
1) when have you actually encountered sexism as a man outside some women's club meeting? As a man myself, I only get portrayed as a rapist in the minds of male redditors.
2) It's generally considered less offensive to make fun of the people in charge, for obvious reasons. By and large, men still run the country. Politicians, bankers, and judges are all overwhelmingly male. Make fun of a man in a commercial for being stupid? It's funny because the CEO of the advertising is almost certainly a man. Make fun of a woman for being stupid? It's less funny because as recently as when our parents were growing up we actually did make such commercials, except we meant it and actively excluded women from the workforce. We're not far enough removed from "math is hard" Barbie dolls to find humor in poking fun at the intelligence of women. Too soon.
[+] [-] impendia|14 years ago|reply
Sexism cuts in both directions. IMHO, M-to-F sexism is much more prevalent, more damaging (for example to women's career prospects), and a more serious issue, but as you complain, F-to-M sexism is real, is (in some circles) more widely socially acceptable, and is sort of insidious. I admire it when men or women stand up to either sort of sexism.
I especially admire this woman's stand. She stood up alone, in a room full of men who had laughed, and calmly demanded to be treated with respect. I submit that she's a role model for anyone who faces discrimination of any type and any severity.
[+] [-] orofino|14 years ago|reply
Just because some see it as an acceptable practice to portray men as idiots, doesn't give men the right stereotypes to other groups.
The comment in this case was unacceptable, the response, in my opinion, is warranted. It is far too common and accepted that a comment like this about women is OK. How men are stereotyped has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong.
[+] [-] inflatablenerd|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mithaler|14 years ago|reply
When that happens, post about it. But until then, this comment does nothing but derail the conversation.
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] xiaoma|14 years ago|reply
>"I actually got up and made him apologize for his stupid and offensive joke. On the way out, one woman thanked me and one man told me I should "relax." (I told him he should shut up.)"
I would never, ever want this sort of person at a conference or a workplace. Equating the communication with opposite sex to an alien is a common, common theme. Reaching down, coming up with the worst possible way to take it and then cutting him off, disrupting the conference, gloating online is just bad behavior. She even recounts her belligerence to a fellow member of the audience who probably just wanted to hear the presentation.
Explaining to the speaker afterwards how his words could be taken would probably have had a genuinely beneficial effect. He might even feel some empathy for what she had to say and come up with a new joke. But he probably feels very little empathy for her at all after her attempt to turn a molehill into a shitstorm.
It's exactly this sort of PC-motivated antagonism that I miss least about America.
[+] [-] voidr|14 years ago|reply
I like jokes like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxckAMaTDc
By all means women speakers should make similar jokes instead of overreacting.
I get the feeling that some women just can't take a joke. Of course there are more serious cases, but stuff like this should be ignored.
I understand that the lack of women in tech(especially open source) is a barrier to entry for women, but reactions like these only make that barrier wider. I once read a story about someone who said will never hire a black person, because if he ever fires him for some reason, the guy will come back with his lawyer and say he was fired because he was black.
[+] [-] bruce511|14 years ago|reply
>> I get the feeling that some women just can't take a joke.
Your sentiment will no doubt be shared by many. The point with offense though is it's not up to the joke-teller to determine if a joke is offensive or not. It either offends a group, or it does not.
You're right, Adam just made a silly joke. You see it as a silly joke. However, and this is the point, now that you've been educated to the fact that the joke was offensive, what is your response?
Your reaction, that they should not have been offended, is unreasonable, because the joke was not at your expense. Would you become the aribter for racial jokes? Native American jokes? How about child pornography jokes? Religious jokes? Why then jokes about a minority gender group?
I suspect, and I mean this with respect, we could find some sensitive area in your life, or anyone's life which would be "just a funny joke" to some, but which are deeply offensive to others. Yes, we live in a "politically correct" world, but there are still lines as to what is ok, and what is not.
And the receiver is the one that determines those lines, not the sender.
[+] [-] Jach|14 years ago|reply
What I found funny about the talk's comment after listening to it, was the reference to tons of conferences getting freaked out over potential sexism. I believe for OSCon some speakers were threatening to withdraw their talks since O'Reilly hadn't put out an official "Sexism--not okay" statement yet. (Which they promptly got around to.) The note to the reactions was the real joke for me, not the sexism.
[+] [-] andos|14 years ago|reply
Nope. It's joke after joke after joke, and also inappropriate behavior in the workplace, in conferences, in pubs. Day after day. What is just one post in HN for us happens constantly to a lot of women in our industry.
Such bringers of the future we are.
[+] [-] electromagnetic|14 years ago|reply
No one cares if one idiot is sexist, racist or whatever. They care that the industry is a boys club for men with the social maturity of 12 year olds and it's absolutely pathetic when there's guys on HN saying essentially "I don't get whats wrong with that joke".
I don't care if I get downmodded for saying this: HN is the best community on the web because of the sheer intelligence displayed on a daily basis by our regular commenters. If our regulars genuinely think there's something okay with this Adam guys public idiocy then I've lost a huge amount of respect for this community. In fact if the IT community really thinks this way, then PG should probably quit his efforts to better it and use his great talent elsewhere that needs it.
You're a scumbag when you make fun of the vast minority. You're a comedian when you make fun of the vast majority. Adam isn't a comedian, he wasn't telling a joke he was making a public display of patheticness.
[+] [-] suprgeek|14 years ago|reply
Making an official compliant to the organizers for story about a mildly offensive joke that was never actually made at said conference - Bordering on overreaction but maybe ok
Writing a G+ post "...JavaOne Incident" publicly slamming said person repeatedly in spite of multiple apologies - Overreaction gone nuts (possibly hurting the original cause - leading to - "this woman can't take a harmless joke" in the minds of more than a few people)
Ageism/sexism/*ism needs to be certainly discouraged but proportional response has its own merits.
[+] [-] z_|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vilda|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sethg|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] craigmc|14 years ago|reply
And if you are (p.s. they're not), then what relevance does it have to this topic?
Should the original author not have taken offence the 'joke' she heard during a work conference because at various points history an unspecified number of women laughed at the shirt you were wearing?
As an aside, would you be cool with this sort of advertising in 2011: http://www.oddee.com/_media/imgs/articles2/a96674_ifyourhusb...
http://www.oddee.com/_media/imgs/articles2/a96674_Blowher.jp...
Or do you accept that the world has moved on from these sort of visuals in advertising, and thus it is not unreasonable to expect the same to apply to the telling of [____]ist jokes in professional/work settings?
[+] [-] quantumhobbit|14 years ago|reply
Both are bad but the second is far worse. "The JavaOne incident" is probably the wrong battle to fight. Regardless of whether Adam's joke was appropriate, attacking him for it provokes a defensive reaction from the frat boy culture (I'm going to keep calling it frat boy culture for lack of a better term). Some people won't see the big deal about how the joke was offensive and will instead be repulsed by the reaction to it. In fact, Adam's joke seems to be just the kind of push back you would expect from a frat boy tired of being told to be more sensitive to his female colleagues.
Most men are like this. We make inappropriate jokes to our friends and aren't afraid of offending them because they give as good as they get. When a woman complains about this the hypothetical frat boy gets defensive because now he can't "be himself". It creates a culture of us vs. them which is not at all healthy.
The real creeps thrive in an us vs. them environment. Now they feel justified to harras women. They go out of their way not to hire women, because "all women do is complain". They can get away with, because the average rank and file frat guy doesn't feel any need to stand up for the feminist who has aligned herself against him.
[+] [-] mjg59|14 years ago|reply
Argument to symmetry is only effective if both groups are equal. That's clearly not the case here. If you want symmetry, ask male nurses whether they think they find jokes about them having somehow given up their masculinity for their career are amusing.
[+] [-] yummyfajitas|14 years ago|reply
Two of my martial arts instructors (as well as a student) work as male nurses for their day job. They make such jokes themselves, so I assume they find them amusing.
Of course, it's easier to laugh at such jokes when they obviously don't apply to you.
[+] [-] dgottlieb|14 years ago|reply
I couldn't respond to the thread directly on google because I was uncomfortable expressing any sympathy for Adam. I felt people I know would judge me in a negative light if they saw it in their feed. I feel here, the thin layer of anonymity/indirection is enough to say this small tidbit.
I don't think Adam woke up that morning, or any morning in fact, and thought to himself that he wants to hurt or harm anyone, physically or emotionally. I think Adam is a good person as are the vastly overwhelming majority of the human population.
I feel the continuation of being hostile towards him by some posters (including Shifra despite accepting the apology) after he apologized is unwarranted and furthermore, unproductive. Adam ate a huge piece of humble pie by posting that, regardless of whether the joke was meant in good faith or not and for others to come back with more negativity just encourages others that make a similar mistake in the future to not acknowledge it as such. People that want to participate in a reasonable debate focused on results can have their voices oppressed by a feeling of discomfort.
I'm not sure if I have anything of real value to add to the women in IT issue (and I'm sure most people that do also doubt the value of their own ideas), but I can say I am one person who is dissuaded of trying to help the issue because I don't want to offend people or alienate them and make them uncomfortable.
[+] [-] Mz|14 years ago|reply
I went through 22 months of withdrawal from medication fairly publicly while a member of an email list. I was incapable of keeping both feet out of my mouth and it seemed to not matter how hard I tried, things just came out all wrong. I wrote many heart-felt, sincere apologies. I had no agenda in terms of my public reputation or whatever. My only intent was to take genuine responsibility for my actions in spite of the burden I was living with and to try to take away whatever hurt I had done.
The result? I became the list scapegoat and if some asshole attacked me out of the blue for no apparent reason on some flimsy excuse, the entire list went "there she goes again!" It's been, oh, maybe six or eight years since then. Some of those folks have never forgiven me. I no longer feel responsible for their on-going hostility. They have a personal issue.
I'm a lot less apologetic than I used to be. Someone once said (in essence) that real justice must mean justice for both sides.
[+] [-] davidu|14 years ago|reply
The speaker should recognize that and simply say as much. Not a lot more needs to be said. There's no way to defend or explain the comment.
And as for @DuncanIdaho who thinks this is vilifying all men. No, it's just calling out a recurring trend at tech conferences to do things which make women feel unwelcome. That's wrong and needs to stop.
[+] [-] electromagnetic|14 years ago|reply
If you tell 10 people and you get enough shit that you have to change a title. Don't tell 1000 and expect a better response. I don't think the big news here is that this guy is sexist, because I honestly doubt he is. I think the big news is that this guy is a fucking idiot.
Here's a heads up to everyone who doesn't know "why the women are offended". It's not that he made the joke, it's that people laughed. Sexism isn't offensive, it's the culture that's offensive. 1 guy thinking women are stupid is just pathetic, it's that people agree with him and think there's nothing wrong with it.
Every time I hear of incidents like this all I can think is that these are pathetic little men who haven't grown up socially since middle school. It's that they've allowed themselves to be so socially isolated that in their group they get away with sexism.
I work in construction, it's a 99% male industry and yes sexist jokes get made between the guys. What happens though when a woman comes along who can do the job is that they get 10 times the respect. Why? Because when you physically are the weaker sex, it takes a lot of character to balls up and get the job done. I like when women come into the industry because they actually want to learn and work. I don't like when guys come into the industry because they're lazy idiots looking for enough cash to buy more drugs or to work enough time to get on unemployment for another 6 months.
Women coming into IT should be exalted, because when they're the 1% it means that 99% of them got into the business to try to become great. When you're 99% of the people in the industry, it means 98% of you are simply there to earn a pay check.
[+] [-] srazzaque|14 years ago|reply
A friend of mine put it perfectly - "when you're amongst the dominant group, you can get away with being mediocre" (i.e. the 98% you're referring to). Meaning that when you're the minority group - your every move will probably be scrutinised/analysed/categorised more closely.
That said - I'm not sure if the personal attacks ("fucking idiot") are completely warranted here (though I suspect you wrote that in the heat of the moment). We all go through learning experiences, some of our learnings just happen to be on a much larger scale than others (and for Adam this was unfortunate). I know I've certainly offended people without meaning to ("it wouldn't have offended my friend Joe - and he's Asian too!"), but now I've learnt the fine art of holding my tongue with regard to such jokes amongst crowds that I don't know too well... sure, I guess I was an "idiot" too in that moment, but no more or less of an idiot than Adam here - despite the difference in scale.
[+] [-] sp332|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] microtonal|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vijayr|14 years ago|reply
Sexist behavior is wrong, whoever does it.
[+] [-] larryfreeman|14 years ago|reply
It's easier to see it when it's outside of our own culture. It's often very hard to see the significance when it's coming from the people that we identify with.
I was not at the JavaOne talk but the statement made is clear. I understand why these statements can be made. If a technical person is boring and goes on enough dates, it is easier to blame the opposite sex rather than blaming himself or herself. If a person is comparing women to space aliens, that probably says it all. It's easier to say that 'they' are space aliens rather than admitting that dating makes him feel like a space alien.
He could have easily made his point without reference to a space alien. He could have said: explain it to a nontechnical person or explain it to a child. These points become more clear, if we focus on the point on hand and the best way to express it in a non-offensive way.
[+] [-] yummyfajitas|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vijayr|14 years ago|reply
This should apply equally to both men AND women (and transgender etc). People are naive, if they think only men make sexist jokes.
However, if someone apologizes for stupid behavior, I don't see a point in continuously making noise about his/her behavior, even after the apology. This only adds noise, and doesn't contribute anything.
[+] [-] funkah|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] craigmc|14 years ago|reply
In the field of law (which is my original background) you can pretty much walk into any sizeable firm, look around for the female partners and know you have identified the family law or employment law team.
Is this because all women who become lawyers have a burning desire to handle divorces or employment tribunals?
Perhaps?
Or perhaps was it the case that historically law firms (then run exclusively by men) were most willing to admit females into the partnership in areas deemed "feminine" before they did likewise for macho stuff like construction or commercial litigation. Thereafter, a meaningful % of female trainees looked around on their first day and figured out where their most likely root to a partnership lay. And so the cycle perpetuated.
That this cycle is increasingly being broken in the legal sector is, I'd argue, as much because of the sheer weight of numbers (more than 50% of law grads are women), as it is down to a more enlightened approach by male partners.
In the abstract, I'd argue that it is not sexism that puts people off choosing a career path, but rather it is a combination of not wanting to fight against the current (not everyone fancies being a trailblazer) as well as the innate human desire to belong to a tribe that physically resembles themselves.
Or to put it another way, I greatly enjoy the company of women, but if I had walked into a lecture theatre and been the only guy present, I'd have felt very much that I was in the wrong room no matter how much I loved the subject (or the attention!)
(Edit: Despite what I wrote in the last paragraph, I must acknowledge that currently I am working in a 4 person startup, three of whom are female including the technical lead.)
[+] [-] mjg59|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skymt|14 years ago|reply