[phreenet]

It's a shame that Younger Dryas x Humans is a fringe topic in some circles. I find the conversation regarding humans in this time to be very entertaining and somewhat fascinating. Particularly the fringe thesis that humans might have been more advanced then we thought roughly 10-15,000 years ago and that a cosmic/stellar event such as what is theorized to happen during the Younger Dryas set our species back thousands of years. The part I find most fascinating is the explanations of how many religions and stories from many different peoples around the world speak of "biblical" floods and untold destruction around the world at roughly the same time period. How the people who became known as the Egyptians may have inherited those pyramids from a more advanced civilization considering constructions that can be attributed to the Egyptians are usually of lower quality to the Great Pyramid, etc.

[ellopoppit]

>Particularly the fringe thesis that humans might have been more advanced then we thought roughly 10-15,000 years ago

Gobekli Tepe has shown this to in fact be the case

>the Egyptians may have inherited those pyramids from a more advanced civilization considering constructions that can be attributed to the Egyptians are usually of lower quality to the Great Pyramid, etc.

The greatest evidence I've seen for this is the water erosion on the Sphinx. One of the main arguments against the Sphinx water erosion theory put forth by archaelogists was:

"there is no evidence whatsoever for a culture capable of building the Great Sphinx much before the traditionally accepted date (2500 bce)"

...which of course was also destroyed by the discovery of Gobekli Tepe

[lumost]

It's incredibly difficult to rigorously assess technology levels in antiquity once the pottery is ground to dust, erosion removes an writing, and the cites are overtaken by changing climates.

What we have of the neolithic period is mysterious granite objects and other hard stones. These granite pieces are hard to build, but we have no basis to assess whether they were carved with primitive tools over generations or quickly using greater application of labor and better tools. Due to the difficulty in dating granite, it's also unclear "who" made the object - this gets exceptionally pronounced when looking at artifacts in the Andes or northern europe.

IMHO the only way this changes is if we get better at marine archeology, detecting signs of civilization via environmental changes (e.g. terra preta in the Amazon) or improve climate modeling to look for places where civilization was but is no longer.

[bl0rg]

The water erosion hypothesis is not supported by enough evidence.

A strong piece of counter evidence is that they have dated the temple near the Sphinx (built at the same time according to both pseudo- and real archeologists) and it corresponded perfectly to other estimates.

The technique they used is called thermoluminescence dating and is incredibly interesting in itself.

[eloff]

At the end of the last ice age, around this time, sea levels rose 120 meters. The areas around the Persian gulf, Mediterranean, Red Sea, Nile Delta, etc may have been settled by humans at the time. If they had any civilization or agriculture near the coast in these areas, it's now buried under the water. The black sea was possibly flooded by the Mediterranean in an epic deluge about 5600BCE.

I think even without the younger dryas impact, it's possible that early civilization got a reset at this time. When you factor in that the impact would have caused widespread and sustained crop failure, you could easily imagine early agrarian civilization reverting to nomadic hunter gatherers.That's my hunch, but there's little to no evidence supporting this at present.

[fsloth]

For evidence based narrative of the oldest known state like agricultural cultures I can't recommend enough James Scott's "Against the grain" https://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-History-Earliest-States...

All evidence at this time points that agriculture based city states were challenging to boot into a "proper civilization". If you raised taxes, your citizens would just leave since the area you could control was quite small. And then you get new diseases that suddenly could spread dense in urban population - wars - all that good stuff.

Based on the book, maintaining a city state over more than few generations, before the knowledge how to keep it going has been learned, is really, really really hard.

This is not to counter the suggestion that there could have been cities at e.g. coasts tens of thousands of years ago, but the fact that they seem to be so frail in the beginning points out that it's not also improbable that first "higher civilizations" were indeed the ones we know of.

[pmayrgundter]

Agreed.

It's turned into a very fun and interesting side project for me.

In particular, the Atlantis story in Plato's Timaeus is historically written off as intentional myth, despite the literal claims to the opposite in the text. If taken as a historical account, it tells of an unprecedented impact, conflagration and deluge within a millennium of the YDIE.

"Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals... For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was [preeminent]."

The following story tells of a large land in the middle of the Atlantic that sank after the conflagration and deluge. The invasion of the Sea Peoples from the direction of the Atlantic, and the establishment of cities by the remnants of these times. These would used to seem preposterous, before the discovery of the by-far oldest megalithic site at Göbekli Tepe 9500-8000BCE, the same dates given for the founding of Athens and Sais in Timaeus.

There's a great literature review channel on YT:

[Prehistory Decoded](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCx11KXwumf5w8J-GdBGKNVA)

And here's some resources I've developed:

[The Story of Atlantis](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dQbm3QNHnYD5xDwDjZXm1M8i...)

[Comparative Energies of Catastrophic Events](https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EslUTRCwOgc_EobxH6X5e01...)

[jcranmer]

> The invasion of the Sea Peoples from the direction of the Atlantic, and the establishment of cities by the remnants of these times.

The Sea Peoples (at least, those involved in the ravaging of the Hittites and the Egyptians) appear to have come from the vicinity of the Aegean Sea, although the Mycenaean collapse would suggest that they do not originate there. (At the same time, there's no actual written documentary evidence of Mycenaean collapse; that it was caused by the invasion of the Sea Peoples is informed by archaeological evidence of a discontinuity in material culture that happens at about the same time the Egyptians and Hittites are reeling from the Sea Peoples. It's actually consistent with the evidence that displaced Mycenaean peoples are the Sea Peoples as recorded in Egyptian stelae. There is 0 evidence that the Sea Peoples came from the Atlantic or anywhere other than the Eastern Mediterranean.

It's also worth remembering that the Younger Dryas occurred c. 10,000 BC, while the invasion of the Sea Peoples happens c. 1,200 BC. That is, the Sea Peoples happened closer in time to the present than it did to the Younger Dryas.

[Maursault]

> If taken as a historical account, it tells of an unprecedented impact, conflagration and deluge within a millennium of the YDIE.

More likely, Timeaus describes the destruction of Santorini, c.1600BC (we can't trust Plato's dating, just that it occurred in the distant past). Plato's "Pillars of Heracles" would have been describing a place other than Gibraltar, (the earliest reference of which is 600BC in Peisander's Heracleia (fixing the number of Hercules labors at twelve), yet the Greeks were unaware of the Atlantic Ocean until the voyages of Pytheas ~330BC, during Plato's lifetime, suggesting another location for the Pillars). The destruction of Santorini also neatly explains the Ten Plagues of Egypt described in Exodus.

[1] https://greekreporter.com/2022/05/10/new-findings-on-santori...

[tastyfreeze]

A follow-on hypothesis to the YD impact hypothesis is Atlantis existing exactly where Plato's Timaeus describes. West of the Pillars of Heracles in the middle of the Atlantic. That describes the Azores. If the YDB hypothesis is correct and immense amounts of ice were removed quickly the spheroid of Earth would change shape dramatically. The previously ice covered areas rebound up and areas that were squeezed out subside. Couple isostatic rebound with immense amounts of meltwater and it is possible that the Azores plateau was above sea level despite now being under 2000 meters of water.

Of course there isnt much evidence to support this hypothesis and it is dependent on the YDB impact hypothesis being correct. But, I found the possibility to be intriguing.

I demonstrated the idea of isostatic rebound to my kids by squeezing a balloon describing my hands as the ice pressing on the land. The bulges between my hands are areas not covered by ice. When my hands are removed the bulges disappear as previously covered areas bounce back up and squeezed out areas drop down.

[bitcurious]

The invasions of the Sea People was closer to us in time than the Younger Dryas was to them. The timeline just doesn’t work.

[nradov]

I think some people get hung up on the word "advanced". They jump to assumptions about fringe theories about Atlantis or flying saucers or whatever. But in this context, "advanced" just means a slightly higher level of masonry and some metal tools, perhaps comparable to what we now consider the Bronze Age in Eurasia. It's entirely plausible that such a civilization could be entirely wiped out, leaving few artifacts that could last >10K years.

[ncmncm]

The most likely place for such evidence is the sea floor off India and Pakistan, and the bottom of the Persian Gulf (which archaeologists must be careful to call the "Arabian Gulf", in e.g. YT vids of recent work on the area.)

The Harappan cities are overwhelmingly more sophisticated than would be consistent with their being the first of anything. The oldest Harappan cities were exhaustively planned before construction started, with central sewers fed from every house, all carefully graded to maintain reliable flow.

The Harappans must have had writing, but on stuff that crumbled to dust thousands of years ago.

A million square miles of what is now sea floor from Korea to Viet Nam, and south to Java, was rich river-drained bottom land until 20000 years ago, filling in until 8000 years ago. People had lived there for at least 20000 years before the sea began rising.

Also, Australia was connected to New Guinea, and again people had lived there for as long. There are still precise oral records of conflicts and resolutions as the water forced people uphill to where other people already lived.

There is a very large construction on Java, Gunung Padang, that had been thought to be a natural hill, but it has turned out was built at least 20000 years ago. (Some think a natural hill must be inside, but we really have no idea.)

[DiabloD3]

It's only a fringe topic because people are uncomfortable with the idea that a recurring disaster cycle could exist, and at least a dozen papers every year are published that amount to "yeah, we looked in this location nobody has looked before, and we saw evidence of the cycle here, too".

[Hayvok]

The comet theory seems to be gaining some traction as the research is done and more data becomes available. A few years ago it certainly seemed fringe-y. Good on them for doing the science.

Entertaining and fascinating are the right words to use for the human civ stuff you mentioned - they are fun stories to think about. But right now I don’t buy it. Maybe they’ll end up being correct, but those folks need to get out in the field, gather data, do the research, and put it up for peer review if they’re really serious about overturning the current framework of the development of human civilization. I see lots of blog posts, internet talks, and amateur books published—less so serious research being published and discussed.

[hnfong]

Is there actual evidence that these "fun stories" did not happen, or are you mistaking lack of evidence with evidence of absence?

[skykooler]

Aren't the pyramids about 4,500 years old? How could they be from before the Younger Dryas?

[ncmncm]

AIUI, IIRC, Khafre left a stele leaning against the Sphinx boasting of repair work he did on it. That seems wholly incompatible with making it.

In general, we can almost always only establish a younger bound on age of any stone construction. Sky's the limit for how old something might be.

Giza is absolutely perforated with tunnels, most carefully not inspected. Hawass used to insist ground penetrating radar was bunk, and would not look at results, never mind commission any.

There is far more unknown about Egyptian prehistory than is known. Whoever built things there was very, very smart. They really did achieve things that seem to us impossible to people with their resources. We can anyway be certain they did not do it all with copper chisels.

We have actual documents with good dates describing work done on facing stones on one of the pyramids. But I don't think we have any way to know if it was original construction or repair work. Egyptians were always very proud of their restoration work, often to the point of chiseling out the builder's cartouche and carving their own in its place.

But the very oldest stonework had no identifying marks at all, and there must have been a serious taboo about tagging any Giza pyramid. They loved tagging everything else. So most things are identified with whoever tagged it last. This is often obviously absurd, as when the tagging is crude hackwork on an exquisite sculpture. There is absolutely no embarrassment about this, evident.

[pmayrgundter]

I haven't heard this claim about the Pyramids, but there's a debate about the Sphinx.

IIUC the original dating from Egyptologists relied on a comparative chronology with the known dynasties and their symbolism. This was called into doubt by a geologist[1] who noted that the erosion on the sides of the Sphinx excavation pit would have needed much longer to form, esp given that Egypt has been dry for the past 10k years.

So perhaps there is a reevaluation of the origin of the Pyramids as well?

[1]https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~ashworth/webpages/g491/2001pres...

[rapsey]

What is most peculiar is that the oldest pyramids are of the best quality. They are still standing, while the younger pyramids are now just a pile of rubble. It is like technological progress regressed in Egypt.

[tastyfreeze]

Dating of the pyramids is based off of things left around the pyramids and one mention of Khufu. If the pyramids are much older there is not much that would be left from the original builders to date after millenia of environmental exposure and human habitation in the area.

[ledgerdev]

This is an excellent video on the topic. https://youtu.be/u7UmGEMduI8

In short, the 4,500 year old date is based on very, very thin evidence, and much other evidence of longer timeline is simply ignored because "it's not possible".

[8bitsrule]

The ice-core and dendrochron records make it clear that the YD began with a precipitous temp drop, followed in 1200 years by a precipitous temp climb. Any alternative hypotheses have to explain those changes, well-established worldwide, simultaneous Pt and Ir deposits, two well-established gigantic meltwater pulses, and hundreds of well-established megafaunal extinctions, all falling among a period of deglaciation with a fuzzy timeline. For starters.

It's a tall order, and recent and ongoing discoveries have made it less-and-less fringey. Fascinating to watch the the responses and what they tell us about 'well-established' orthodoxy.

[vkou]

I find a much simpler explanation to the common meme of biblical floods in religions.

Which is that people tend to build their settlements on or around rivers.

The same geography that makes an area suitable for trade, transport, fishing and agriculture will have catastrophic floods every few years/decades. Look at where every city of note is, and note how many of them are either on the coasts, or on rivers.

Rivers flood.

[towaway15463]

I wouldn’t think a regularly occurring flood would be recorded as a once in history event that wipes out almost all of mankind. The Egyptians featured regular flooding of the Nile in their myths but didn’t picture them as apocalyptic.