“I wish,” Talaat now said, “that you would get the American life-insurance companies to send us a complete list of their Armenian policy holders. They are practically all dead now and have left no heirs to collect the money. It of course all escheats to the state. The government is the beneficiary now. Will you do so?”
If anybody else is wondering what happened with some of those life insurance policies, The New York Life Insurance Company attempted to pay out 2,200 unclaimed policies in 2004[1]. That's only after avoiding it for almost a century, and it's still unclear how many were actually claimed in the end.
Disturbing, isn't it? Turks might have collected their possessions and even went after the life insurances but Turks lost so much more.
The Armenians were part of the Ottoman society and their contributions were invaluable.
Today in Turkey, you can still see their legacy all over the place. The best neighbourhoods to live in Istanbul are those who used to have a large Armenian population. Neighbourhoods with concentration of cultural heritage that is still alive often have an Armenian church somewhere. A civilian building with a great architecture? It was probably built by Armenians or Greeks who were uprooted during the collapse of the Ottoman empire. You can see the pattern al over Istanbul and Turkey. When you visit Turkey, pay attention of the writings on old and beautiful apartments or houses and more often than not you will see that those writings are not in Turkish or Arabic but Armenian, Greek or Hebrew. In the context of the Ottoman Empire, Turks were the warriors and the rulers and the local minorities were the artisans, the scientists, businesspeople.
If Turkey managed to preserve its Armenian or Greek minorities, the country would have been much much nicer and sane place. I hope that one day the country will make peace with its past and have its minorities back again.
That's really something! I mean, the state already got all their possessions, that's par for the course, same as the Nazis did with the Jews, but I don't think the Nazis thought about also collecting the life insurance...
Objection to an ethnicity. Key indicator of genocide for any action taken based on such an objection.
>on three distinct grounds. In the first place, they have enriched themselves at the expense of the Turks. In the second place, they are determined to domineer over us and to establish a separate state. In the third place, they have openly encouraged our enemies. They have assisted the Russians in the Caucasus, and our failure there is largely explained by their actions.
Reads almost verbatim just like Nazi Germany on Jews back then or Nazi Russia on Ukrainians today.
> We have therefore come to the irrevocable decision that we shall make them powerless before this war is ended.”
Again very similar to the perception of themselves as the master race (Nazi Germany) or the master nation (Nazi Russia) and thus perceiving themselves as having the right to act in such a way.
> so that I can explain our position on the whole Armenian subject.
Also very similar is the use of the phrase "the <ethnicity> subject|question|issue" to plant the seed in the mind of the listener that there is indeed a problem that needs to be "solved".
Russia is coincindentally heading right the way of Ottoman empire, seemingly step, by step.
Decades of futile attempts to retake Balkans after Greek revolt lit the fire in Europe, and caused a chain reaction of support for Ottoman dismantlement.
For Russia to survive as a state in coming decades, it will not need a "Russian Washington," but rather somebody more like a Russian Ataturk.
It's also very similar to the sort of talk I hear about Muslim immigrants in the United States: "In the first place they take jobs from Americans, in the second they want to impose Sharia law, and in the third place they support terrorism." There's always an 'other' who will be blamed, and we have to guard our minds against plausible talk like this.
Huh... Bing and DDG both seem to avoid autocomplete for "Armenian Genocide" - requiring one to type it out almost completely. Google suggests it early on, as one would expect.
DDG does bring the completion after typing "Armenian" for me, however Bing even after typing the whole phrase "Armenian Genocide" brings totally unrelated completions while also suggesting "armenian genocide museum dc" as No. 3. This is so strange!
As a Turk with very little interest to History, would like to share my guesses about viewpoints of these characters have.
First of all I am very impressed about how modern the ambassador is for 192X. He is Liberal exactly like someone from USA would be today.
Now! Liberalism is not a idea that is easily accessible back then. Let alone find a any group of people that will backup you in this way. Even in current Turkey's politics: only 2-3 parties are viable in election and they are all about deciding whether country should go Muslim-National (Auth-Right but Muslim Traders Only) or National-National (Auth-Left)
Considering that Ottoman Empire was multi-cultural gaint and considering that literacy of people of Ottoman Empire were about low as %10. People from same culture/race/religion lived near together and even tho there have been problems here and there, they were probably doing fine like humanity of today.
But when once-in-a-life-time event occurs and you find yourself survived a war but your old government is colepsed; and the New authority (politicly) doesn't look anything different from a group of revolters/rioters from at your standpoint. Who can you trust in the middle of all this chaos other than people of your race/culture/religion.
Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Muslims Cults/Sheiks, Old Ottoman Government's supporters, all rioted and tried to overthrown the new authority of TBMM (team Ataturk/Republic) within very near time spans.
At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression.
Calling it 'Ptsd of an authority' would sum it maybe.
Still the whole event is presumably a overkill/genocide when we take a look at from the current perspective.
"Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Muslims Cults/Sheiks, Old Ottoman Government's supporters, all rioted and tried to overthrown the new authority of TBMM (team Ataturk/Republic) within very near time spans.
At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression."
Your timeline is off, The new parliament (TBMM) was established in 1920 and new republic in 1923. The events described in the article happened in 1915. Ambassador's letter was written in 1916.
> At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression.
Not really, all empires were multicultural, e.g. russia, but while the Bolsheviks went to war, they did not genocide them. The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one. Britain did not go on to genocide indians because it wanted their land
> Talaat’s first objection was merely an admission that the Armenians were more industrious and more able than the dull-witted and lazy Turks
Right. I wonder, precisely how bias is this great ambassador against the Turks?
Do you know what the truth behind it all is? Nations are violent. They tend to overreact in terrible murderous ways. What’s worse, their will always be enough support in the hardliners in their population. Look at world history: the Americans committed genocide against the Natives with the support of the majority (heck more than half today pretend like nothing wrong happened). The British and French and Japanese committed genocide (all over the world) with the support of a population pretending like they are spreading civilization. The British were literally smuggling opium into China despite a ban by the Chinese. The Germans murdered millions in an attempt to ethnically cleanse with the support of their people. The Israelis are currently ethnically cleansing Palestine — and it is the Israeli people themselves who are doing this.
States are violent. Savage. Terrible in their overreactions and they tend to overreact. If the Armenians did indeed sabotage the Turks during the war with Russia then they should have fled or taken up arms right against the Turks when their sabotage failed to lead to a complete defeat of the Turks. In any country west or east — rebelling against the government and aiding foreign adversaries is going to lead to violence and that violence is going to be supported by the people.
Terrible world we live in where those that rise to power are savage in their pursuit of increasing/maintaining power.
> If the Armenians did indeed sabotage the Turks during the war with Russia then they should have fled or taken up arms right against the Turks
You speak as if nations are some monolithic hive minds with a single will.. the reality is that most people who were murdered weren’t active combatants or were not even related to active combatants. Also many other Christian people were targeted like the Assyrians, Coptic Greeks etc..
We can still recognize that horrible injustices have been made and attempt to do better. Past injustices doesn't justify the ongoing ones in Yemen, Palestine, Ukraine, China (Uyghurs), etc.
> “You are making a terrible mistake,” I said, and I repeated the statement three times.
> “Yes, we may make mistakes,” he replied, “but”—and he firmly closed his lips and shook his head—“we never regret.”
And they never did. They don’t even acknowledge it. Interesting to contrast the response of the German state to its genocide and that of Turkey’s.
> We base our objections to the Armenians on three distinct grounds. In the first place, they have enriched themselves at the expense of the Turks.
Similar reasoning and calls for genocide are routine by the ideologues in power in Tamil Nadu, India: https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/national/south/dmk-spokespe...
Thankfully no large scale violence so far though, they have just stuck to the rhetoric.
Not that it's okay, but the Tamil Nadu situation seems (to an outsider) to be a class/caste based call to violence more than a racial genocide. Sort of like "eat the rich", where there's no specific call to ethnically cleanse anyone, "just" for class warfare.
Definitely possible I'm missing something, and it's a touchy subject, but one I'm increasingly interested in these times. So feel free to correct if I'm wrong, or just chime in.
And with all that genocide talk, Turkey is a NATO member and was(technically is?) an EU candidate. Moreover, rumors are, Finland and Sweden will submit to Turkish demands regarding Kurds. Turkey has also led a military campaign against Armenia together with their satellite just recently. Maybe it really doesn’t bother western liberal democracies whether genocide happened. And it’s only used as a tool.
> Turkey has also led a military campaign against Armenia together with their satellite just recently
That is not true, in 2020 Azerbaijan successfully liberated a region that was under Armenian occupation since 1994. I say liberated because that land was and is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Also, Azerbaijan suffered atrocities conducted by the Armenians, for example the Khojaly massacre[0]. Yes Turkey helped Azerbaijan, Russia helped Armenia. It was the first showcase of the Turkish drone technology in a war between regular armies but the Turkish help was not only in providing weapons, it was much deeper.
When it comes to the Kurds, IMHO the Turks deserve most of the blame for the feud BUT what Turkey demands has nothing to do with Kurds but with internationally recognized terrorist organisations that operate in Turkey.
Think of it like this, if you are sympathetic of the people of Iraq for the horrible things that the USA did there would you also support ISIS? If your answer is NO then you don't have a case for supporting PKK against Turkey because PKK is a terrorist organisation that blows up public buses or kills teachers. If you are not familiar with their activities, there's ample amount of information online.
If it were only the burden of acknowledging the past, I might disagree with you. The survivors are long gone, and while their descendants deserve closure, and some compensation, I wouldn't hold the whole nation hostage to this debt.
Turkey continues to treat the Kurds awfully, and in recent times. Allowing Turkey into the EU without this ending completely would be an insult to the ideals of that organization.
Why do you think that the genocide is so heavily denied by modern Turkey ( Attaturk and onwards)? Is it only due do reparations or is there lingering ethnic... "superiority" remaining? Because at first glance, modern Turkey fought long and hard to distance itself from the Ottoman Empire, and make it well known they aren't a successor state. Why not pin all the blame for the genocide on the decadent Ottomans and be done with it?
"On every one of these points, I had plenty of arguments in rebuttal. Talaat’s first objection was merely an admission that the Armenians were more industrious and more able than the dull-witted and lazy Turks."
[+] [-] z3c0|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/12/us/insurer-to-pay-armenia...
[+] [-] mrtksn|3 years ago|reply
The Armenians were part of the Ottoman society and their contributions were invaluable.
Today in Turkey, you can still see their legacy all over the place. The best neighbourhoods to live in Istanbul are those who used to have a large Armenian population. Neighbourhoods with concentration of cultural heritage that is still alive often have an Armenian church somewhere. A civilian building with a great architecture? It was probably built by Armenians or Greeks who were uprooted during the collapse of the Ottoman empire. You can see the pattern al over Istanbul and Turkey. When you visit Turkey, pay attention of the writings on old and beautiful apartments or houses and more often than not you will see that those writings are not in Turkish or Arabic but Armenian, Greek or Hebrew. In the context of the Ottoman Empire, Turks were the warriors and the rulers and the local minorities were the artisans, the scientists, businesspeople.
If Turkey managed to preserve its Armenian or Greek minorities, the country would have been much much nicer and sane place. I hope that one day the country will make peace with its past and have its minorities back again.
[+] [-] rob74|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] toxicFork|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trhway|3 years ago|reply
Objection to an ethnicity. Key indicator of genocide for any action taken based on such an objection.
>on three distinct grounds. In the first place, they have enriched themselves at the expense of the Turks. In the second place, they are determined to domineer over us and to establish a separate state. In the third place, they have openly encouraged our enemies. They have assisted the Russians in the Caucasus, and our failure there is largely explained by their actions.
Reads almost verbatim just like Nazi Germany on Jews back then or Nazi Russia on Ukrainians today.
> We have therefore come to the irrevocable decision that we shall make them powerless before this war is ended.”
Again very similar to the perception of themselves as the master race (Nazi Germany) or the master nation (Nazi Russia) and thus perceiving themselves as having the right to act in such a way.
[+] [-] jpmoral|3 years ago|reply
Also very similar is the use of the phrase "the <ethnicity> subject|question|issue" to plant the seed in the mind of the listener that there is indeed a problem that needs to be "solved".
[+] [-] eggsbenedict|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baybal2|3 years ago|reply
Decades of futile attempts to retake Balkans after Greek revolt lit the fire in Europe, and caused a chain reaction of support for Ottoman dismantlement.
For Russia to survive as a state in coming decades, it will not need a "Russian Washington," but rather somebody more like a Russian Ataturk.
[+] [-] f6v|3 years ago|reply
Be honest, you came here just to write this.
[+] [-] JasonFruit|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nostromo|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mojuba|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hoseja|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _rgun|3 years ago|reply
First of all I am very impressed about how modern the ambassador is for 192X. He is Liberal exactly like someone from USA would be today.
Now! Liberalism is not a idea that is easily accessible back then. Let alone find a any group of people that will backup you in this way. Even in current Turkey's politics: only 2-3 parties are viable in election and they are all about deciding whether country should go Muslim-National (Auth-Right but Muslim Traders Only) or National-National (Auth-Left)
Considering that Ottoman Empire was multi-cultural gaint and considering that literacy of people of Ottoman Empire were about low as %10. People from same culture/race/religion lived near together and even tho there have been problems here and there, they were probably doing fine like humanity of today.
But when once-in-a-life-time event occurs and you find yourself survived a war but your old government is colepsed; and the New authority (politicly) doesn't look anything different from a group of revolters/rioters from at your standpoint. Who can you trust in the middle of all this chaos other than people of your race/culture/religion.
Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, Muslims Cults/Sheiks, Old Ottoman Government's supporters, all rioted and tried to overthrown the new authority of TBMM (team Ataturk/Republic) within very near time spans.
At that point it must have been normal to react to these 'issues' with this much aggression.
Calling it 'Ptsd of an authority' would sum it maybe.
Still the whole event is presumably a overkill/genocide when we take a look at from the current perspective.
[+] [-] mda|3 years ago|reply
Your timeline is off, The new parliament (TBMM) was established in 1920 and new republic in 1923. The events described in the article happened in 1915. Ambassador's letter was written in 1916.
[+] [-] seydor|3 years ago|reply
Not really, all empires were multicultural, e.g. russia, but while the Bolsheviks went to war, they did not genocide them. The modern state of turkey otoh is the result of 3-5 genocides, not one. Britain did not go on to genocide indians because it wanted their land
[+] [-] DSingularity|3 years ago|reply
Right. I wonder, precisely how bias is this great ambassador against the Turks?
Do you know what the truth behind it all is? Nations are violent. They tend to overreact in terrible murderous ways. What’s worse, their will always be enough support in the hardliners in their population. Look at world history: the Americans committed genocide against the Natives with the support of the majority (heck more than half today pretend like nothing wrong happened). The British and French and Japanese committed genocide (all over the world) with the support of a population pretending like they are spreading civilization. The British were literally smuggling opium into China despite a ban by the Chinese. The Germans murdered millions in an attempt to ethnically cleanse with the support of their people. The Israelis are currently ethnically cleansing Palestine — and it is the Israeli people themselves who are doing this.
States are violent. Savage. Terrible in their overreactions and they tend to overreact. If the Armenians did indeed sabotage the Turks during the war with Russia then they should have fled or taken up arms right against the Turks when their sabotage failed to lead to a complete defeat of the Turks. In any country west or east — rebelling against the government and aiding foreign adversaries is going to lead to violence and that violence is going to be supported by the people.
Terrible world we live in where those that rise to power are savage in their pursuit of increasing/maintaining power.
[+] [-] yywwbbn|3 years ago|reply
You speak as if nations are some monolithic hive minds with a single will.. the reality is that most people who were murdered weren’t active combatants or were not even related to active combatants. Also many other Christian people were targeted like the Assyrians, Coptic Greeks etc..
[+] [-] bjourne|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1sembiyan|3 years ago|reply
> “Yes, we may make mistakes,” he replied, “but”—and he firmly closed his lips and shook his head—“we never regret.”
And they never did. They don’t even acknowledge it. Interesting to contrast the response of the German state to its genocide and that of Turkey’s.
> We base our objections to the Armenians on three distinct grounds. In the first place, they have enriched themselves at the expense of the Turks.
Similar reasoning and calls for genocide are routine by the ideologues in power in Tamil Nadu, India: https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/national/south/dmk-spokespe... Thankfully no large scale violence so far though, they have just stuck to the rhetoric.
[+] [-] cscurmudgeon|3 years ago|reply
This is exactly how it looked in Rwanda and other places before some spark lit large-scale violence.
[+] [-] WaxProlix|3 years ago|reply
Definitely possible I'm missing something, and it's a touchy subject, but one I'm increasingly interested in these times. So feel free to correct if I'm wrong, or just chime in.
[+] [-] f6v|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrtksn|3 years ago|reply
That is not true, in 2020 Azerbaijan successfully liberated a region that was under Armenian occupation since 1994. I say liberated because that land was and is internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Also, Azerbaijan suffered atrocities conducted by the Armenians, for example the Khojaly massacre[0]. Yes Turkey helped Azerbaijan, Russia helped Armenia. It was the first showcase of the Turkish drone technology in a war between regular armies but the Turkish help was not only in providing weapons, it was much deeper.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khojaly_massacre
When it comes to the Kurds, IMHO the Turks deserve most of the blame for the feud BUT what Turkey demands has nothing to do with Kurds but with internationally recognized terrorist organisations that operate in Turkey.
Think of it like this, if you are sympathetic of the people of Iraq for the horrible things that the USA did there would you also support ISIS? If your answer is NO then you don't have a case for supporting PKK against Turkey because PKK is a terrorist organisation that blows up public buses or kills teachers. If you are not familiar with their activities, there's ample amount of information online.
[+] [-] samatman|3 years ago|reply
Turkey continues to treat the Kurds awfully, and in recent times. Allowing Turkey into the EU without this ending completely would be an insult to the ideals of that organization.
[+] [-] m00dy|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mda|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sofixa|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] B1FF_PSUVM|3 years ago|reply
... something turntables ...
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]