[lesstyzing]

The Uber propaganda here in this thread is insane. Taxi’s maybe have been shit but that does not in anyway justify Uber breaking the law to conquer the market (btw, now that they’ve done that, they’ve also turned to shit because it was unsustainable).

Perfect may be the enemy of good but we shouldn’t excuse companies using endless VC money and law breaking to achieve something that’s marginally better for consumers.

Obviously there are some exceptions to this in the comments but generally, in modern countries where the taxi firms aren’t run by literal mafias and killing people, we should condemn Uber’s behaviour.

[joe_the_user]

Ex-taxi driver,

Taxi’s maybe have been shit but that does not in anyway justify Uber breaking the law to conquer the market (btw, now that they’ve done that, they’ve also turned to shit because it was unsustainable).

Literal or not, taxi companies really are as a rule something akin to local Mafiosos. They break the law all the time. The extent to which Uber screwed over it's drivers and to an extent risked the safety of it's riders bothers me. That Uber flouted local regulations intended to keep taxis services in the hands of local politicos' scumbag friends bothers me not in the least.

And as Uber rose, lots of drivers would drive both taxis and Uber, with each having advantageous and disadvantageous. And I also remember finally checking tire pressure on a cab I'd been paying to use for a bit - random amounts between 10 psi to 40 psi with half the tires bald. Taxi companies are filth and I laugh to hear any of them out of business. Sure Uber isn't much better but the point is Uber vs local Taxi company isn't a fight where people should be routing for a side. Tossing bottles at both sides, sure but not taking a side.

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

"Tossing bottles at both sides, sure but not taking a side."

In the 1920s, Yellow Cab and Checker Cab engaged in shootouts on the streets of Chicago. A guy named John Hertz owned Yellow Cab. He also owned racehorses. In 1923, he bought a rental car company. In 1929, arsonists targeted his stables. He then sold Yellow Cab.

However the story told by this Uber leak is not about one company versus another. The sides in this battle are (a) Uber and (b) the people, as represented through the state or government.

[hourago]

> Literal or not, taxi companies really are as a rule something akin to local Mafiosos.

Uber is NOT better. Read the article. They just take a bigger chunk from drivers and do not pay taxes.

I want Uber to disappear because their uncontrollable power, they use ride data to spy politicians, they avoid paying taxes, they mistreat their "employees", ...

Both sides are the same is false, and it is false in almost all situations. (Vote!)

[Scarblac]

This really depends on where you are, taxi laws and companies are not the same everywhere, Uber mostly is.

[blobbers]

Appreciate the driver insight here! We often play off “the good old days” before tech took over industry X.

Nice to know history isn’t all roses and sugar in reality.

[noptd]

You should include this disclaimer as you commented below

>I should admit that I drove for only a month

so that readers can properly weigh your experiences when forming an opinion.

[sfifs]

Maybe it is "marginally better" where you come from. Uber and their ill have always been always parity priced or more expensive in the markets I have lived in. The killer value proposition is the car actually turns up in a timely manner and actually takes passengers to where they want to go. Taxis often simply were eother not available to call, rarely showed up even if called and would often refuse to go where passengers want. Uber and its competitors literally makes it possible to live in the cities i live in without owning a car because even if you regularly commute by public transport, for those occasions where you need a car, you know you will get one reliably. In the past that was not an option and you would have to own a car.

Hopefully a good reminder to not extrapolate personal experiences or propaganda of the circle one may be a part of to the whole world.

[alasdair_]

> and would often refuse to go where passengers want

This happens to me all the time with Uber when I land at LAX and want to go to Anaheim or I’m in SF and want to go to San Jose.

And unlike a taxi, half the time Uber charges me $5 claiming that I ghosted the driver rather than them refusing to take me, something I don’t always catch.

[varunprasad]

Well, iphones have also only existed since little before Uber came around.

The reason that was the only way cabs were available because those were the only communication technologies available.

Maybe what you should be demanding is that cab services provide apps so you don't have to hail/call, etc. There are several companies that can provide this for your cab jurisdiction area as a third party service and they won't price gouge the cab drivers and/or the customers, and they won't use illegal threats and bribes to change laws to suit their needs.

[charrondev]

In my market I can now get an taxi in more consistent time than an Uber. It seems drivers don’t get matched in a timely manner. Unfortunately I was using Uber primarily because of how fast it arrived previously, but the driver numbers fell off a lot during Covid, between some drivers churning out, not wanting to wear masks, and or switching to Uber eats.

Sometimes I wish I could just “even though there is so surge, I would gladly pay a 2x surge to just get a car to arrive here within the next 30 minutes”.

[synicalx]

> the car actually turns up in a timely manner

Here in Australia this is becoming a real problem with Uber - drivers seem to apparently have unlimited "cancels" and just cancel rides continuously to drive up demand especially at the airport where they know passengers have no other choice. They'll also almost always refuse rides that are too far, or don't finish in or near a high-demand area (like a CBD or airport). Other ride share apps are worse (DiDi really sucks), but Uber is the most expensive by far and the experience is pretty bad.

Our taxis on the other hand mostly seem to have uber-like apps and you can reliably get picked up just about anywhere even if you live in the middle of nowhere (within reason, of course). They're about the same price as Uber, with no surge pricing as well.

[spiantino]

Did you read the article? You like Uber a lot, congrats, what does that have to do with this?

[jackson1442]

The best part about Uber/Lyft imo is that I know exactly how much I'll be charged before I even request it. Taxis you get to do a bunch of math that depends on factors like traffic but in the rideshare apps you can decide if the ride is worth it.

If taxis could replicate this more ethically, I would switch in a heartbeat.

[Spooky23]

Uber varies dramatically in different locales.

In my area, they aren’t very available and don’t like to pick up in many areas, and hate driving to the airport or train station. Previously, the airport and train station authority held cabs to high standards there and they were responsive and clean.

In places like Boston I’ve been straight up stranded in the airport when Ubers just won’t show - don’t know why.

[heliodor]

Another important benefit of taking an Uber is that the price is clear.

[badrabbit]

I agree with you except with the marginally better part. Their service is profundly revolutionary.

It isn't lack of capital or brains that prevented the taxi indistry before and after uber to provide the same service but beneficial to their interests. After all these years they are not even trying to compete with Uber they just want things to go back to the way they were where consumers are taken advantage of or discriminated against. Like it or not, Uber is more accessible to all types of consumers not just the ones drivers think will tip the most, they have better background checks and uniform and scrutinized safety controls and providen a viable primary or secondary income to drivers.

The local laws and regulations should get out of the way and enable what uber is trying to do with or without Uber. The livelihood of taxi drivers is not the law's problem, the well being od consumers and the economy however is. An outdated business model should not be put on a respirator by politicians. I am of the opinion that traditional taxi system with medallions and all that should be done with. Anyome who provides consumer transportation can compete fairly with Uber and pals.

[KennyBlanken]

Their service is not revolutionary if you're trans: https://xtramagazine.com/power/uber-trans-drivers-discrimina...

Their service is not revolutionary if you're non-white and a driver: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58831373

Their service is not revolutionary if you're handicapped. The TNCs charge wait time fees which end up discriminating against handicapped passengers who take longer to get from their home to the waiting vehicle, and to get into the vehicle. In fact, they were sued over this, more specifically for not making accommodations: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-uber-... and https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-10/uber-sued...

The TNCs are not required to operate a minimum number of paratransit vehicles like taxi fleets are. Uber has been sued for not providing paratransit vehicles https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/18/uber-accessibility-lawsuit...

The TNCs and local regulators have done nothing to address widespread problems of drivers refusing to provide service to the handicapped. I remember being shocked at the posts in TNC driver subreddits and web forums regarding handicapped passengers. Many drivers see someone in a wheelchair and just bolt - using various methods to cancel/reject the ride - because they see picking up such a passenger to be time consuming, a risk, or annoying.

The service is not revolutionary if you live in the "wrong" part of town. I lived in a "not quite wrong, not quite right" neighborhood where there was plenty of wealthy young people but it was also close to the "wrong" part of town...and when I tried using the service, it'd be 20 minutes to get a ride and usually at least one cancellation. In the "right" part of town? A quarter of the wait, and never a canceled pickup.

[wolverine876]

> After all these years they are not even trying to compete with Uber they just want things to go back to the way they were

Who are you describing? Can you name anyone?

> where consumers are taken advantage of

I've never felt taken advantage of in a taxi. I know Uber pushes this all the time, but can you give examples? I know with Uber or Lyft they collect data on me such as where I am and where I go.

> or discriminated against

Is there any evidence that it's better with ridesharing apps? I mean evidence, not the same claims long made by Uber.

[aunty_helen]

>Obviously there are some exceptions to this in the comments but generally, in modern countries where the taxi firms aren’t run by literal mafias and killing people, we should condemn Uber’s behaviour.

hehe love it. In the first world, ...

How about this, I want to arrive at an airport, walk out the front, check a number plate and put my suitcases in the boot knowing that if anything happens I'm not going to be risking 10k worth of stuff.

Oh officer, it was a yellow car that said taxi on the side, you think you'll find my stuff?

In Germany, Berlin of all cities, I had my bagage held to ransom by a taxi driver who "forgot" to start the meter and then decided the 250m we drove was worth an extra 10eur on top of the 15eur trip.

So sorry this is more Uber propaganda, but for the ~1000 Uber reciepts I have in my inbox, I've had few and only little problems. And a lot of these are from a city where people do go missing if they get in the wrong taxi.

Do I love Uber? No. They're sometimes shit. Surge pricing, allowing drivers to pick up a trip and then just cancel, 6 minute arrival timers that are actually 10 minutes away, wait fees from the first minute onwards, grumpy covid mask reminder emails even though I'm always wearing a mask, reissuing fees when they adjust the price and holding extra money on my card until it's all cleared.

But touch wood, I've never been in a crash in an Uber, I have in a taxi (single car, solely the drivers fault), even though it's a 20:1 ratio for journeys I've taken.

Edit: 1051 trips according to my inbox

[usr1106]

1051 trips supporting a clearly criminal business. They admit that basically themselves, until they claim to have changed their direction a couple of years ago.

E.g. here in this country drivers got criminal charges, got all their fares confiscated and some ended up in personal bankruptcy. Uber even kept the 20% commission and the leaked documents say they knew they were operating fucking illegally.

[mccorrinall]

If you’re in germany, use the mytaxi (freenow) app and pay in the app.

https://apps.apple.com/de/app/free-now/id357852748?l=en

[simonbarker87]

I won’t use Uber. It’s terrible and far worse than my experience with taxis. I’ve also said here before that many UK cities had better taxis systems before Uber but was shouted down. The only way Uber could compete was unprofitably undercutting the local market with a worse service.

Just because SF needed a new taxis system doesn’t mean they had to inflict it on the rest of the world.

You want to get to the airport for 5AM tomorrow morning? Good luck getting an Uber, they won’t let you book ahead and if you want to hail at the time they will cancel on you 4 times.

I’ve never had this issue with a taxi company and have got a pre booked taxi to time critical things a lot of times in my life.

But yeh, they have an app (weren’t even the first though) so HN loves them.

[bogota]

I mean “inflict it on the rest of the world” come on. They wouldn’t be selling if you weren’t buying. Uber categorically provides a better service than taxis in almost all places and provides a far safer experience in others. But once again it’s likely some self righteous first world person’s opinion who has no context for how other countries function. Par for the course on HN.

[kortilla]

> The only way Uber could compete was unprofitably undercutting the local market with a worse service

If it was worse, why were people using it? Maybe people didn’t like, or more likely couldn’t afford, the taxi service you refer to.

> they won’t let you book ahead and if you want to hail at the time they will cancel on you 4 times.

This is exactly what getting a cab was like before Uber in nearly every city in the US. That’s why Uber had no problem disrupting taxis.

[pmoriarty]

"I won’t use Uber. It’s terrible and far worse than my experience with taxis."

Is Lyft any better?

[azinman2]

At least in the US you can pre-book. I’m no Uber fan but I haven’t experienced this cancelation you mention.

[onphonenow]

I’d support anyone who broke the sf taxi cartel. For all the high minded rhetoric folks spew about how the regulations protected the consumer - it was a clear cartel - racist, poor service, insultingly bad in fact. The fact that govt agencies and departments bent over backwards to support this garbage is all you need to know about the peoples representatives

[jeltz]

There is a world outside SF. Some places had great taxis, others had awful and most somewhere inbetween. Uber used the same underhanded tactics in all places.

[charlieyu1]

I would take Uber lobbyists over taxi lobbyists in Hong Kong any day. Manipulating the number of taxi licenses so the current license are worth millions of HKD, holders get rich just by letting hundreds of licenses to drivers who don’t earn much after rent, while also being pawns of CCP? I don’t think people would really like them.

[yieldcrv]

My observation is that nearly every municipality had a taxi service with negative press, isolated in local news under different taxi brands, and in municipal court filings. This being about local taxi that bent the law to become entrenched themselves.

Whereas any incident with Uber is international news.

Makes it harder for me to elevate Uber’s issues as being as egregious as presented. I recognize their flaws, I also recognize the market need which still remains. So sure, make a better one thats more compliant. When I and others point this out we’re not giving Uber a pass. Just assigning a weight to the problems.

[wolverine876]

> This being about local taxi that bent the law to become entrenched themselves.

Can you give an example? I've never heard of that. They usually lack any power at all.

> nearly every municipality had a taxi service with negative press

Everyone seemed satisfied in my experience. I did see Uber's talking points everywhere on social media - how terrible taxis were. Unforunately, taxis lacked the money to run their own information campaign.

[wolverine876]

I've taken many, many taxis with barely a problem. They weren't (and aren't) shit at all to me.

[hourago]

Uber is well known for paying to manipulate on-line discourse. The amount of propaganda just adds to my grievances towards the company.

[lawgimenez]

In my country we used to have Uber but they pulled out maybe 4-5 years ago. I wish they have stayed, because now we only have one and it is driving the price way up high due to lack of competition.

[LatteLazy]

>Taxi’s maybe have been shit but that does not in anyway justify Uber breaking the law to conquer the market

Why not?

MLK (and Im sure others before him) said you have a duty to disobey unjust laws. The law should conform with what is right, not just be followed blindly. If uber can improve outcomes and do no net harm then good luck to them and anyone else in a similar situation.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Uber propaganda

Propaganda is idealistic. It runs counter to its audience’s real-world experience. To the degree anyone is propagandising, it is those condemning Uber. Uber’s supporters, not of all of it, but certainly of its raison d’être, have practical, real-life experiences to sustain their arguments. The other side, condemning Uber, evokes moral outrage.

Not making a concluding argument for either side. But would hold back on the accusation that one side or the other is serving corporate or populist propaganda.

[cyanydeez]

Their business was defacto to ignore local laws. And you'll find libertarians as a advocate of that business model.

[zbird]

A lot of folks here seem to be confusing breaking the law in the name of justice and social progress (e.g. Rosa Parks) vs the blatant corruption of companies like Uber. At least the Uber VPs knew they were corrupt.

[RONROC]

The Uber propanaganda is always insane on HN.

Where do you think these people work?

TLDR; Their parents are proud of them, let's not fuck that up for them.

[zbird]

Indeed. And many may have joined not knowing the real workings of the company; heck, the same situation could also be true for many of us now. But to continue defending the company even after knowing the facts is certainly a thing to marvel at.

[jjmorrison]

In the modern country of America taxi firms are run by literal mafias... Like actually.

[lesstyzing]

They’re not.