For cars with internal combustion engines, the company tends to get constant income via service thanks oil filters, other filters, and a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be replaced (assuming people take it to authorised service centers, which I assume most people do when the car is relatively new).
With the transition to EV, those avenues dry up because EVs need lesser maintenance (as per my understanding).
So, are they trying to create new recurring income sources due to the possibility of existing such incomes drying up?
I think people over-estimate that because most EVs are very new. Of course this is n=1 type data, but the service cost on engine related things for my several years old BMW are quite low compared to other items. They replace the oil once the computer wants it, which is every 30,000 to 40,000km, so less than once a year for most users. And that's all engine costs I've had over the years.
But I do have maintenance costs associated with this type of car. It's more things like replacing tires at least once a year (which I think high torque EVs will do even faster), then at about 100k miles they replaced the wishbones / control arms.
Those things get more expensive on high-end cars with things like software damper control, larger rims etc, all of which Tesla (just picking an EV) also has.
I don't think this is the biggest reason. It's because most cars now come with always-online LTE modems and everything is software-controlled. Couple that with a product VP who wants to make his bones and you get "turn everything into a continuing revenue stream." Doesn't matter whether the car is electric or ICE.
IOW, they're doing it because they can.
The solutions are:
1. Don't buy these cars.
2. Hack the software and share that knowledge.
3. Install a 50-cent switch to apply power to the seat heaters directly.
4. Disable the goddamned modem and share that knowledge too.
Not for nothing, but BMW realizes very little post-first-sale service dollars because they bake that into the price of the car.
If you go and buy a new 3-series this afternoon, you pay for your gas and that's pretty much it. All your scheduled maintenance is included, and you may even end up with a tire plan (wise on some of these cars; Z-rated rubber is pricey, and urban areas can eat tires) so the rubber ends up "included" too.
> the company tends to get constant income via service thanks oil filters, other filters, and a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be replaced (assuming people take it to authorised service centers, which I assume most people do when the car is relatively new).
I'm not sure how it works in other countries, but in the US, the vast majority of official car dealerships are owned by the franchiser of that dealership, not the car company itself.
This is what caused the conflicts between Tesla and certain US states who had car dealership groups lobbying to ban Tesla from owning their own dealerships/service centers.
Outside of replacement parts specific to the car, like a bumper, most service income goes straight to the dealership franchiser owner, not the car company.
Isn't this just a new way to pay for already existing options? Instead of paying the full cost in advance, you can spread it over the product's lifetime, and once the car gets resold, the new buyer can "configure" it as they prefer.
Other than oil and filters, which you don't need to buy from the manufacturer, most new cars don't need much engine maintanance.
On the other side, suspension, brakes and tires are much more subject to wear and the need of replacement, and in a heavier car, there's a big chance that you'll need even more frequent maintainance of such itens.
Official service centers are a bad joke though. Especially for BMW you pay 2.5x the work of other, good service (tested this on oil change, liquids were the same). Then they also screw you on parts prices. Suffice to say I never went there again.
I never saw the reason to buy new cars which drop value tremendously in first 5 years, I am certainly not that rich to not mind. I rather buy 6-7 years old, BMW in this case, do maintenance in good unofficial garage and drive the car to the ground. If you find one, stick with it till you die.
First car (BMW E46 3-series) bought for 25% price of new, maintenance costs rather minimal, drove it for 10 years till clutch/transmission literally died.
Now we have again BMW (5-series F10 wagon), bought for 20% of the new, 6 years/90k km old. Obviously no clue how it will behave in future, but we paid 80k less for really premium safe family car, and my yearly maintenance costs have been around 500$ per year.
People sometimes do stupid decisions when they are driven mainly by emotions.
There’s an easy way to make sure this doesn’t catch on. Never buy a car from any car company that does this. Advocate loudly for never buying a car from a company that does this. The market will speak. We are the market.
Good news is that all bmw's come with all the options just turned off via software..
So be smart guys, this is called hacker news for a reason... Just buy bare metal bmw and turn all luxury options on... (and BMW is traditionally very dumb on security)...
I can't just "turn on" adaptive headlights because the vehicle doesn't have the necessary camera to scan the road for oncoming cars installed.
I can't just "turn on" adaptive cruise control, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary front radar installed.
I can't just "turn on" the HUD, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary dash components physically installed.
The number of different hardware permutations of most modern cars is eye-watering. For most options, if you didn't get it installed from the factory, you're looking at an expense retrofit.
Hello, this is your car insurance provider here. We noticed that you are driving a hacked car on the road. Your insurance is hereby cancelled. Thank you for paying your premiums so far.
I wonder if I could build and app / service for them -- TSOAS (aka Turn Shit Off As a Service) and charge them a small monthly fee to do it.
BMW should be in the business of building cars, not pissing off people. They could outsource that to me as a service!
I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car.
Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product.
As long as you can find the wires that provide power to the seat heaters, add a switch, and splice it into some power, I imagine one can enable it without any software changes.
> Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product.
Why?
Not that I am in favor of this but are there really objective arguments to support that?
One can argue that the ecological impact is higher due to the need for additional materials but maybe people buy new a car only because they didn't have feature X and installing it afterwards is too expensive.
> I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car.
This is very common. It is often cheaper to have a single SKU and enable/disable features via software than to create a separate one. I don't see what could be criminal about that.
If companies continues adding more subscription options in more models it will make some aftermarket electronic modules, or simply jailbreak hacks, to bypass those locks. It happened already in the Tesla, and I don't think it will stop here.
There's already a pretty mature world of apps that interface with BMWs to turn features on and off, even my 14 year old BMW has hundreds of features you can toggle with an iOS app+OBD dongle. Everything from changing how the sunroof switch behaves to modifying the front-rear split of the all wheel drive.
I imagine it will become a bit of a cat and mouse game as they try to block access to paid features, though it's ultimately a moot point for me, as it's obvious where the company is going and I'm never buying a new BMW again.
This is pure speculation, but I suspect that they have some kind of DRM to prevent you on using those features, that means if you break a DRM, then you are at fault here, while I don’t agree, this seems similar to the case of one wheel that they block the motherboard if you unplug the battery, if you plug again the same battery it doesn’t matter, the motherboard is already blocked, and because of intellectual property (I don’t remember the details on what they did) you cannot "hack" the motherboard without breaking the law.
This is becoming so sad in all aspects, soon this kind of practices will get to PCs? where the motherboard will also have subscriptions, even maybe cpu and gpu.
I can see why a car manufacturer would not want to make two versions of each car, one with heated seats and one without. Instead, build it into all of them, and only activate and charge those that actually need it.
Also, the subscription is an option. You can also pay the full price for the feature.
Where I live, I could see using this once or two months a year. Whereas some would need it more and they might just buy the option outright.
It’s cheaper to physically put the functionality in all the cars than to differentiate at assembly time. We don’t have the same visceral reaction to paying for options at the dealer.
(I am assuming they aren’t adding this charge RETROACTIVELY. That’s very different)
As long as it stays an additional option next to permanent buying it I don't see the problem. Maybe I didn't care for heated seats zt time of purchase, but suddenly it's a very cold winter and I want it for a couple of months. Or someone wants to buy my car, but really wants heated seats can now do so.
As per my understanding, you already paid for the heated seats when you bought the car, as they are already installed on board. What you are required to do is to pay a monthly fee in order to use something you already own.
so you buy the car, fully equipped with the heat seating... but you can't turn it on unless you pay a subscription fee?
I had to double check this wasn't an Onion article.
thats one of the most dumbest brand burning idea's I've ever seen. I'm happy enough with my Mid range Rav4 Hybrid that comes with seat heaters and no subscription fee thanks...
At first was a little uncomfortable with the change, but then I thought how much would it be today to add those optionals to a new car.
Checking from my phone, the heated steering wheel is more than 300$, which is more than what would cost the permanent upgrade in the car.
Now we should wonder, having a construction line and distribution system capable of handling optionals like the heated steering wheel, does it cost more or less than 300$? I don't think that the answer is obvious.
Would it be possible that the car get actually cheaper for the consumers?
Also having those optionals allow to turn them on and off at will. Maybe if I swap car with my SO it would like the heated seat that I never care for.
I see the dangerous of this, but I also see the benefits.
AS a consumer I absolutely hate subscriptions. I will never own a subscription to anything I can replace for something else. I bought solar panels to avoid electric subscription, etc. I never buy on credit, etc
How soon until your car tells BMW that it's cold outside and BMW turns on the heated seats and puts an ad on your display, "For just $18/Month, this feature could be yours!"
> A similar subscription plan is offered for a heated steering wheel and it costs $10 per month, $92 annually, and $161 for three years. You can also buy it outright for $222.
isnt this what in the old days was what they (adam smith et al) meant when they talked about economic rents and (rent) free markets...?
[+] [-] 2143|3 years ago|reply
For cars with internal combustion engines, the company tends to get constant income via service thanks oil filters, other filters, and a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be replaced (assuming people take it to authorised service centers, which I assume most people do when the car is relatively new).
With the transition to EV, those avenues dry up because EVs need lesser maintenance (as per my understanding).
So, are they trying to create new recurring income sources due to the possibility of existing such incomes drying up?
[+] [-] t0mas88|3 years ago|reply
But I do have maintenance costs associated with this type of car. It's more things like replacing tires at least once a year (which I think high torque EVs will do even faster), then at about 100k miles they replaced the wishbones / control arms.
Those things get more expensive on high-end cars with things like software damper control, larger rims etc, all of which Tesla (just picking an EV) also has.
[+] [-] dreamcompiler|3 years ago|reply
IOW, they're doing it because they can.
The solutions are:
1. Don't buy these cars.
2. Hack the software and share that knowledge.
3. Install a 50-cent switch to apply power to the seat heaters directly.
4. Disable the goddamned modem and share that knowledge too.
[+] [-] ZeroGravitas|3 years ago|reply
We've not had a good track record of that in the past, but still worth keeping in mind as a general principle.
[+] [-] ubermonkey|3 years ago|reply
If you go and buy a new 3-series this afternoon, you pay for your gas and that's pretty much it. All your scheduled maintenance is included, and you may even end up with a tire plan (wise on some of these cars; Z-rated rubber is pricey, and urban areas can eat tires) so the rubber ends up "included" too.
[+] [-] KoftaBob|3 years ago|reply
I'm not sure how it works in other countries, but in the US, the vast majority of official car dealerships are owned by the franchiser of that dealership, not the car company itself.
This is what caused the conflicts between Tesla and certain US states who had car dealership groups lobbying to ban Tesla from owning their own dealerships/service centers.
Outside of replacement parts specific to the car, like a bumper, most service income goes straight to the dealership franchiser owner, not the car company.
[+] [-] EveYoung|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] elzbardico|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saiya-jin|3 years ago|reply
I never saw the reason to buy new cars which drop value tremendously in first 5 years, I am certainly not that rich to not mind. I rather buy 6-7 years old, BMW in this case, do maintenance in good unofficial garage and drive the car to the ground. If you find one, stick with it till you die.
First car (BMW E46 3-series) bought for 25% price of new, maintenance costs rather minimal, drove it for 10 years till clutch/transmission literally died.
Now we have again BMW (5-series F10 wagon), bought for 20% of the new, 6 years/90k km old. Obviously no clue how it will behave in future, but we paid 80k less for really premium safe family car, and my yearly maintenance costs have been around 500$ per year.
People sometimes do stupid decisions when they are driven mainly by emotions.
[+] [-] woofyman|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nradov|3 years ago|reply
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/18/tesla-ranks-30th-in-unoffici...
[+] [-] more_corn|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nikonyrh|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] chewz|3 years ago|reply
So be smart guys, this is called hacker news for a reason... Just buy bare metal bmw and turn all luxury options on... (and BMW is traditionally very dumb on security)...
[+] [-] _fat_santa|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] growse|3 years ago|reply
I can't just "turn on" adaptive headlights because the vehicle doesn't have the necessary camera to scan the road for oncoming cars installed.
I can't just "turn on" adaptive cruise control, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary front radar installed.
I can't just "turn on" the HUD, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary dash components physically installed.
The number of different hardware permutations of most modern cars is eye-watering. For most options, if you didn't get it installed from the factory, you're looking at an expense retrofit.
[+] [-] rdsubhas|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mdtancsa|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dotancohen|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ed_balls|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] queuebert|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atwood22|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bearmode|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rockinghigh|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nprateem|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xupybd|3 years ago|reply
Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product.
[+] [-] jrochkind1|3 years ago|reply
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
[+] [-] MerelyMortal|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] foepys|3 years ago|reply
Why?
Not that I am in favor of this but are there really objective arguments to support that?
One can argue that the ecological impact is higher due to the need for additional materials but maybe people buy new a car only because they didn't have feature X and installing it afterwards is too expensive.
[+] [-] deng|3 years ago|reply
This is very common. It is often cheaper to have a single SKU and enable/disable features via software than to create a separate one. I don't see what could be criminal about that.
[+] [-] jmrm|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] macNchz|3 years ago|reply
I imagine it will become a bit of a cat and mouse game as they try to block access to paid features, though it's ultimately a moot point for me, as it's obvious where the company is going and I'm never buying a new BMW again.
[+] [-] norman784|3 years ago|reply
This is becoming so sad in all aspects, soon this kind of practices will get to PCs? where the motherboard will also have subscriptions, even maybe cpu and gpu.
[+] [-] DesiLurker|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jms703|3 years ago|reply
Also, the subscription is an option. You can also pay the full price for the feature.
Where I live, I could see using this once or two months a year. Whereas some would need it more and they might just buy the option outright.
[+] [-] 2457013579|3 years ago|reply
https://electriccarpledge.com/tesla-acceleration-boost/
[+] [-] gfunk911|3 years ago|reply
https://www.techopedia.com/definition/2239/cpu-lock
It’s cheaper to physically put the functionality in all the cars than to differentiate at assembly time. We don’t have the same visceral reaction to paying for options at the dealer.
(I am assuming they aren’t adding this charge RETROACTIVELY. That’s very different)
[+] [-] kabes|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] N19PEDL2|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] senectus1|3 years ago|reply
I had to double check this wasn't an Onion article.
thats one of the most dumbest brand burning idea's I've ever seen. I'm happy enough with my Mid range Rav4 Hybrid that comes with seat heaters and no subscription fee thanks...
[+] [-] bengale|3 years ago|reply
I can sort of understand a subscription for the speed camera data, although its a bit cheap, but for the lights it seemed mad.
[+] [-] siscia|3 years ago|reply
Checking from my phone, the heated steering wheel is more than 300$, which is more than what would cost the permanent upgrade in the car.
Now we should wonder, having a construction line and distribution system capable of handling optionals like the heated steering wheel, does it cost more or less than 300$? I don't think that the answer is obvious.
Would it be possible that the car get actually cheaper for the consumers?
Also having those optionals allow to turn them on and off at will. Maybe if I swap car with my SO it would like the heated seat that I never care for.
I see the dangerous of this, but I also see the benefits.
[+] [-] GoToRO|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] midhhhthrow|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stuckinhell|3 years ago|reply
This is truly insane, its WORSE than feudalism. https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacatio...
[+] [-] lkxijlewlf|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bgdkbtv|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrekandre|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LeeroyWasHere|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Jemm|3 years ago|reply