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Not to argue for or against unions.

But in the US the history of unions often ended up with ties to organized crime. In addition unions seemed to become more interested in serving the needs of the union rather than the well being of the workers. One example is a buddy of mine that had to be party of a bag boys union who had to end up paying basically the entirety of a pay check in union dues each month simply to be employed, without him getting anything from it.

From what I understand there is a literal and figurative ocean of difference between the unions in the EU and the US.

I'll further add that trying to conflate the two is a tactic I've often seen used by dishonest people to manipulate the conversation.

karpierz|3 years ago

> But in the US the history of unions often ended up with ties to organized crime.

Organized crime takes root in groups that don't benefit from government protection. Do you think that unions would've turned to organized crime if the authorities and privatized security groups didn't regularly attack them without any intervention by the US government to protect them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

manuelabeledo|3 years ago

> But in the US the history of unions often ended up with ties to organized crime.

Is this true, or just another case of historical revisionism based on pop culture?

Not denying that there aren't examples of this, but it does seem a bit like people like to go back to a few famous criminal individuals to justify that unions are "bad".

cool_dude85|3 years ago

Your buddy was a bag boy paying "basically the entirety of his pay check" in union dues? Let's be specific here. How much in pay and how much in dues?

commandlinefan|3 years ago

I kind of feel the same way - I think that, in the long run, unionization will be bad for everybody involved... but the employers have really, really, really brought this on themselves. All they had to do was try to be human beings from time to time, but apparently that was too much to ask.

Melatonic|3 years ago

There was a huge scandal that basically killed tech unions in the US. Big names like Steve Jobs, George Lucas, etc. It also killed the chance of a VFX union (at the time VFX and tech jobs were basically seen as the same industry).

This is in contrast to the rest of Hollywood which is probably one of the best examples of a union success story the US has. Every single little niche has its own union (Animation Guild, Editors Guild, etc)

This all ended with a huge lawsuit and a (supposedly) massive settlement without a court decision. But the end result was that the tech unions never formed - the assholes won

egypturnash|3 years ago

I have friends in VFX and in animation, and the VFX friends are... less happy than the animators. The animators bitch about how the corporations are constantly trying to get one person to do the job of two but the union is constantly pushing back, the VFX people just accept that shit like "oh we didn't get paid for the last month of work because the shop closed up" is normal for them.

Veserv|3 years ago

What is the structure of unionized employment where you work?

In particular:

1. Do you have a choice of union?

2. Do you in theory have a choice of union even if in practice there is only one applicable union?

3. Can you leave the union/not engage in collective bargaining via the union if you believe the union is not representing your interests?

4. Can you in theory form your own union if applicable unions do not represent your interests?

From a cursory inspection of the structure of German and Swiss trade unions, I believe the answer to all of these questions is yes, though I do not have any in-depth or firsthand experience indicating the truth of my belief, so it would be helpful to get input from someone with firsthand experience.

In contrast, based on a more in-depth analysis on the nature of legal recognition for unions in the US, in the US the answer to all of these questions is no. I hypothesize this distinction, assuming it is true, is a key reason for the different attitudes towards unions in the US and Europe.

BlargMcLarg|3 years ago

It's definitely not the norm in Europe. A few specific countries, maybe.

wincy|3 years ago

Serious question though, what’s the pay like for a software engineer in Switzerland? The last time I checked it was something around half or less of what a software engineer can make in a third tier city in the USA. I can deal with not being in a union when I make close to three times the average cost of living in my area and would be very surprised if a union could negotiate a better rate or better working conditions as a software engineer.

danaris|3 years ago

So many tech workers bring out this line, that they don't think a union could negotiate a better deal for them.

Really? You really think that you are the best negotiator out of everyone who could join a union local in your area? You really think that by yourself you have more leverage than if you were negotiating alongside everyone else in a similar position within your company?

You look at the amount, and see that it's good, and you make a whole bunch of assumptions founded on stereotypes about unions, and come to the conclusion that you are the specialest person around...and it's a very seductive thing to believe.

But it's just one more way the people making dozens or hundreds of times more than you screw you over.

mistrial9|3 years ago

talk to a twenty year veteran software developer who is systematically passed over due to "bad cultural fit" about your salary survey.

thecopy|3 years ago

Seems to be around 100-200k https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&c...

0xbadcafebee|3 years ago

We have a very long history of killing each other over unions. Union violence has been committed as recent as 2018-2021.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_violence_in_the_United_S... / https://listverse.com/2017/09/14/10-tragic-times-the-us-gove... / https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/themine... / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Labor_Wars / https://www.intermountainhistories.org/items/show/219

In the 1970's Reagan ushered in an era of busting unions and they have been declining ever since. Ironic as Reagan in his youth had actually fought for unions.

https://medium.com/the-future-of-labor-unions/ronald-reagans... / https://medium.com/the-future-of-labor-unions/why-has-union-...

manuelabeledo|3 years ago

> We have a very long history of killing each other over unions. Union violence has been committed as recent as 2018-2021.

Numbers are really, really low here, if you compare them to owners' lead violence, especially committed by police.

tmp_anon_22|3 years ago

Americans love feeling like they're about to be rich (all 300+ million of us), thus unions are bad because they redistribute power to the poor.

Melatonic|3 years ago

We are all just "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" after all!

jimbob45|3 years ago

Is it a feeling of imminent wealth? Or is it a feeling of equal opportunity for everyone? It seems disingenuous to frame it as "those silly Americans thinking they're about to be rich". You might as well frame unions as "protecting the most useless employees from being fired".

drc500free|3 years ago

In the US, unions historically excluded Black labor. Management was able to play the two labor forces against each other when there was a strike.

Eventually the Civil Rights Act passed, forcing government-mandated equality in many places, especially around employment. White labor abandoned the labor party (Democrat) in favor of the anti-government party (Republican).

Since then, the Democrats have been pro-minority, pro-government and at best fairly ambivalent about labor issues. Only the management perspective played in the media, and when Clinton came in to power he brought a strongly anti-labor platform to the Dems.

Americans for the most part have not had a labor party to oppose management narratives, and don't generally even have the common vocabulary to discuss labor issues.

xen2xen1|3 years ago

My father worked for a union bridge building company for 33 years. He was very pro union. He retired after 33 years from a massive heart attack, which was alarmingly common for people with his job description. He was still very pro union, as his employer left him with little medical debt after an extremely expensive heart transplant. However, I destincty recall his throwing a magazine across the room published by his union when he vehemently disagreed with the political stance they took. The stance was very liberal, he was very conservative. It's very easy to say it's all about race, but when the blue collar workers don't feel at all represented by their union what do you expect to happen? He didn't feel represented in any way by the national union even when we literally said he'd never work a day non union in his life. The unions lost support at the ground level and never got it back.

hourago|3 years ago

> even have the common vocabulary to discuss labor issues.

This was one of the warnings of Orwell. A good example is how communism and socialism are synonymous for many people limiting their capability to discuss social improvements.