[whittingtonaaon]

The only physical evidence is found in behavior and facial expressions. But the internal evidence is very convincing: try, for example, sticking yourself with a pin. Much if not all of morality also depends on our belief in or knowledge of sentience. Sentience is why torture, rape and murder are wrong.

[Aeolun]

Then is torture, rape and murder wrong because the victim is sentient, or because the perpetrator is?

[dragonwriter]

> Then is torture, rape and murder wrong because the victim is sentient, or because the perpetrator is?

Nothing is wrong unless it's done by a moral actor (which is a much higher standard than sentience. Pretty much everything with a central nervous system is sentient, but lobsters, for instance, are not moral actors.

Similarly, the usual understanding of the moral status (the gravity of not the binary permissible/wrong status) of the three acts you describe is somewhat connected to the target as well as the actor being a moral actor (that's least the case with torture, and most the case with murder) rather than merely sentient.

[simonh]

There are arguments to be made for both. Some crimes, even if virtual, can stain or corrupt the perpetrator in ways inimical to society. There are plenty of examples of people who fantasised or role played abhorrent behaviour and went on to perpetrate it in real life, so there is a real danger.

For example we tolerate computer games with virtual killing, but don’t tolerate virtual rape games. Even with virtual killing there are limits. Should we tolerate nazi death camp torturer simulation games?

[whittingtonaaon]

Because the victim is, of course.

[chmod775]

> But the internal evidence is very convincing: try, for example, sticking yourself with a pin.

Systems don't need sentience to avoid self-harm: simply assign a large negative weight to self-harm. Now you need a big reward to offset it, making the system reluctant to perform such an action.

[whittingtonaaon]

I’m not talking about self harm. I’m talking about the experience of pain—which most everyone has had! These are different things.