This wasn't in the paper, but men in general tend to be geared toward non-emotional stimulus and action-oriented thinking. Their supernormal stimulus is hardcore and paraphilic porn for this reason, which then of course invokes unfavorable comparisons, because of how unrealistic they are.
Women in general respond to emotional stimulus better. Their supernormal stimulus is erotic romance, also known to create unrealistic expectations, however these expectations are about men, not the readers themselves.
I don't know porn much, but I know erotic romance, and it's central thesis is that it's a form of fantasy in which the MFC (main female character) is wanted by one, sometimes two (menage) and occasionally more (reverse harem) MMCs (main male characters). The allure is that she is the center of their world. HEA (happily ever after) is usually expected, especially for romance, and cheating is forbidden. Alpha males, billionaires, daddy and stepbrother types are the most popular MMCs, along with aliens and monsters. The pattern is being able to tame, or at least withstand or even enjoy something possessive, dominant and aggressive. Another pattern is being able to lay down the burden of having to be in control, or having adult responsibilities altogether.
Women also enjoy reading about gay men, reportedly because they don't have to identify with an MFC. In romance it is important to create an emotional framework that explains why the characters want each other, and in erotic romance this can happen through sexual discovery. Being fated to be together is a popular, if lazy framework. Erotica without an emotional framework is much less popular and hard to monetize because the payment processors are squeamish of adult content in the first place and the readers tend to feel bad about just erotica, which is a recipe for disaster. Reportedly erotic romance actually helps women improve their sexual life, perhaps because it encourages sexual discovery.
>but men in general tend to be geared toward non-emotional stimulus and action-oriented thinking. Their supernormal stimulus is hardcore and paraphilic porn for this reason, which then of course invokes unfavorable comparisons, because of how unrealistic they are.
>Women in general respond to emotional stimulus better. Their supernormal stimulus is erotic romance, also known to create unrealistic expectations, however these expectations are about men, not the readers themselves.
Do you have a source for this claim? I've heard this claim many times but I've never seen it proven scientifically.
Interestingly, I can see basically almost all of the tropes described in the last paragraph in many male-targeted manga/anime/visual novel with romance elements.
This strikes me as cultural. In the vein of "guys like drawing dicks on things". Not only do I not do that but I know few who do across many countries.
This makes me think that this stuff is cultural mimicry resulting in conforming to local gender roles rather than a true gender divide.
Happy to alter beliefs based on evidence that target this specific notion: that it is not subcultural.
A question. I've no problem with hardcore porn but I'm put off by badly by some of what I assume to be porn oriented at men; completely emotionless robotic banging. Porn for women is much more affectionate and for me that makes it so much more enjoyable. I really want to see people genuinely having a good time or (to me) what's the point.
I don't know if I'm unusual in this but I'd like to know what other people think. I seriously wonder if a lot of porn produced is aimed at what the studios think the audience want rather than actually finding out if it is. I could well be wrong though.
No judgement on anyone for liking what I don't, that's fine.
> I've no problem with hardcore porn but I'm put off by badly by some of what I assume to be porn oriented at men; completely emotionless robotic banging. Porn for women is much more affectionate and for me that makes it so much more enjoyable. I really want to see people genuinely having a good time or (to me) what's the point.
Counterpoint: I find this stuff creepy and voyeuristic. I think watching porn to watch normal loving couples having straight sex is somewhere between peeping in windows to watch a healthy, normal family have dinner (and to fantasize about being them), or like going to the circus to watch nonathletic people exercise.
Watching porn to see sexual athletes and performers do what they do for a living, and enjoying the unusual and exceptional, and not really thinking that its something that you're obligated to imitate or emulate, for me, is the least creepy perspective. The opposite, to me, is a strange insistence that the only porn that is worthwhile is porn that is held up as a model, and that people who don't see pornography as a model are perverted. For me, that's like saying it's perverted to watch a trapeze artist, or a gymnast.
I think the massive increase in amateur porn is filling this gap. Much of the content on PornHub is now amateur, and there are camming sites like Chaturbate that feature real couples having live sex, and of course OnlyFans.
I think there are plenty of amazing "mainstream" porn scenes out there too, but they tend to get lost in an endless sea of repetitive sub-par pro porn.
Maybe go for erotic novels (or Visual Novels to video games) instead?
Male oriented erotica in book form is rare in US culture, but common in the Japanese light novel / visual novel community.
Books focus on characters thoughts and emotions because that's the medium of words.
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Most book-based erotica seems to be aimed at female audiences for some reason, so I think there is a bit of a cultural expectation here.
Still, with the growing popularity of erotic visual novels (and heck, just novels in general) I have to imagine that the male reader base exists out there.
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I'm not saying Hunniepop is the best written piece of literature I've seen. But there are words and emotions there, and a mild focus on what the various women want (albeit with the male sex fantasy slants).
Since the majority of the game is in fact, reading mundane situations and figuring out which gifts work best for each girl (ie gameplay mechanic to force the players into reading the story), it forces the player to at least explore the female characters a bit before you get the porno scene.
Obviously everyone's tastes are different but, broadly speaking, the most popular porn videos do not tend to be the most romantic or sensual. That said, there are many niches in porn, and videos made for women can be very successful within that niche.
Producers are incentivised to create videos that will sell. It's not much good if a video is popular on free tube sites but nobody pays for it. There is evidence to suggest that women are a lot less likely to pay for porn than men are, and there is therefore a lot less of an incentive to create porn for that demographic.
Creating romantic/passionate porn is not easy! The script and casting (amongst many other things) need to be just right for it to work. Therefore it's going to take more time and effort. So many studios will focus on mass producing videos. There's an obvious trade-off between quality and quantity, and many studios will have found that it's just more profitable to churn out videos as quickly as possible.
I think I'm probably the other end of the spectrum. I'm perfectly content with just a close-up picture of a vagina. Penis going in and out of vagina in as high def as possible is basically optimal. If there's anything else in the scene my brain basically disregards it.
This is the case for me about 75% of the time, unless I'm in "a mood."
My guess is this. People like you might enjoy a softer form of porn, but are you going to click through to the ads that they're using to monetize?
Free online porn is not optimized for people's tastes. It's optimized to attract the people who are so obsessed that they're going to click through and actually buy products that are advertised at some point.
"The results revealed a twofold phenomenon. Among men, a higher frequency of porn use and increased porn use over time were associated with lower levels of sexual self-competence, impaired sexual functioning, and decreased partner-reported sexual satisfaction. In contrast, among women, higher and increasing frequencies of porn use were associated with higher levels of sexual self-competence, improved sexual functioning, and enhanced partner-reported sexual satisfaction (for some aspects)."
Let’s not forget that old arrow of causality. Perhaps men who are bad at sex are more likely to view porn rather than viewing porn making them bad at sex. Similarly maybe women who view porn are already sexually successful and are looking for ideas.
Male and female sexual function aren’t particularly comparable either. If a man can’t get an erection then sexual intercourse just isn’t going to happen. There’s no hard analog for women. That’s just one example, there are many others.
> and enhanced partner-reported sexual satisfaction (for some aspects)."
I read this as something like: women who watch porn are more likely to perform fellatio well.
“The findings reveal the irony that porn – a male-dominated industry that targets a male-dominated audience – is associated with the erosion of the quality of men's sex lives and the improvement of women's sex lives.”
Sample collection was from solicitation by a YouTuber:
> In June 2015, the French YouTuber Mathieu Sommet posted an online video that invited his followers to complete a questionnaire entitled ‘Sexual profile of adults’.^2 A total of 171 462 participants (18+ year-olds) started the questionnaire, and 101 572 finished it.
There’s probably some value in the study, but it’s probably inappropriate to draw hard conclusions from it (pun not intended).
This assumes sexual performance in a relationship is worth optimizing for. There may be many other factors at play. Reduction of time spent thinking sexual thoughts. Partner’s with a reduced sex drive or disability etc. Just worth bearing in mind the study (which is very useful/interesting) looks at just one objective.
There’s also the degree and how long one looks at porn. And how that can free up time for other things that are attractive in relationships (financial security etc). As a hypothetical consider a person who looks at porn for 5min every two days, and stays very focused on accumulating wealth for a few years and then reduces this and focuses more on sexual performance.
> This assumes sexual performance in a relationship is worth optimizing for.
I think this is sending the wrong signal to readers. Yes, ninety percent of the time it is worth optimizing for. It's literally what we're wired to do and your partner will appreciate it.
That doesn't mean that that ten percent of an outlier doesn't exist but broadcasting doubt that it is worth optimizing for is not the wisdom most people need to hear.
I suspect this is because porn is usually (not always) made by men, for men. Women watching porn learn about what men like. Men watching porn get further entrenched in their own desires, and learn to expect that sex will play out in a way that they themselves prefer.
Wife and I are in an open relationship, this is anecdotal: number of men she's hooked up with who get performance anxiety is massive like it's at least 60 to 70 percent of men who have a hard time getting and maintaining an erection.
> The findings reveal the irony that porn – a male-dominated industry that targets a male-dominated audience – is associated with the erosion of the quality of men's sex lives and the improvement of women's sex lives
I wonder if the effect would hold if there were more porn that caters to women. Or if consumption of romance novels has a similar but inverted effect.
I know a lot of women who watch hardcore porn and no one who reads romance novels (that I know of!). I think there is plenty of room for more and better porn (for both women and men) but the idea that women don't want to see graphic sex is a myth.
> Accordingly, and contrary to what is often suggested in popular books on the psychology of pornography (e.g. Zimbardo & Coulombe, Reference Zimbardo and Coulombe2015), men who face sexual problems and choose to terminate porn use may experience only marginal improvements in their sexual lives (assuming that we can draw causal inferences from our findings); similarly, women who face sexual problems might be well advised not to consider porn use to be a sexual panacea.
This is interesting for sure but you can't draw sweeping conclusions from this research.
> The findings reveal the irony that porn – a male-dominated industry♧ that targets a male-dominated audience♤– is associated with the erosion of the quality of men's sex lives and the improvement of women's sex lives.
Are ♧ and ♤ true? Or did the paper just make this factoid up on the spot? My gut feeling would have been that it's dominated by women instead, and that the audience skewness would be a reflection of that more than anything.
Don't mock the research if you agree with it. This research is absolutely necessary for awareness and advocacy. Now when you claim porn ruins young adults' sexual health, you can cite this article to back it up.
But also take solace that this is becoming more common knowledge among young people anyway, despite older generations being in denial over it.
People are always way less active today, which could explain some of the ED in 20-30 something range versus men that age 25+ years ago. I think people can be too quick to point at porn as causing ED when it could be any combination of things (obesity, poor cardio health, nutrition, etc)
[+] [-] Comevius|3 years ago|reply
Women in general respond to emotional stimulus better. Their supernormal stimulus is erotic romance, also known to create unrealistic expectations, however these expectations are about men, not the readers themselves.
I don't know porn much, but I know erotic romance, and it's central thesis is that it's a form of fantasy in which the MFC (main female character) is wanted by one, sometimes two (menage) and occasionally more (reverse harem) MMCs (main male characters). The allure is that she is the center of their world. HEA (happily ever after) is usually expected, especially for romance, and cheating is forbidden. Alpha males, billionaires, daddy and stepbrother types are the most popular MMCs, along with aliens and monsters. The pattern is being able to tame, or at least withstand or even enjoy something possessive, dominant and aggressive. Another pattern is being able to lay down the burden of having to be in control, or having adult responsibilities altogether. Women also enjoy reading about gay men, reportedly because they don't have to identify with an MFC. In romance it is important to create an emotional framework that explains why the characters want each other, and in erotic romance this can happen through sexual discovery. Being fated to be together is a popular, if lazy framework. Erotica without an emotional framework is much less popular and hard to monetize because the payment processors are squeamish of adult content in the first place and the readers tend to feel bad about just erotica, which is a recipe for disaster. Reportedly erotic romance actually helps women improve their sexual life, perhaps because it encourages sexual discovery.
[+] [-] fold3|3 years ago|reply
>Women in general respond to emotional stimulus better. Their supernormal stimulus is erotic romance, also known to create unrealistic expectations, however these expectations are about men, not the readers themselves.
Do you have a source for this claim? I've heard this claim many times but I've never seen it proven scientifically.
[+] [-] dicytea|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] georgia_peach|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] renewiltord|3 years ago|reply
This makes me think that this stuff is cultural mimicry resulting in conforming to local gender roles rather than a true gender divide.
Happy to alter beliefs based on evidence that target this specific notion: that it is not subcultural.
[+] [-] zasdffaa|3 years ago|reply
I don't know if I'm unusual in this but I'd like to know what other people think. I seriously wonder if a lot of porn produced is aimed at what the studios think the audience want rather than actually finding out if it is. I could well be wrong though.
No judgement on anyone for liking what I don't, that's fine.
So, is it just me?
[+] [-] pessimizer|3 years ago|reply
Counterpoint: I find this stuff creepy and voyeuristic. I think watching porn to watch normal loving couples having straight sex is somewhere between peeping in windows to watch a healthy, normal family have dinner (and to fantasize about being them), or like going to the circus to watch nonathletic people exercise.
Watching porn to see sexual athletes and performers do what they do for a living, and enjoying the unusual and exceptional, and not really thinking that its something that you're obligated to imitate or emulate, for me, is the least creepy perspective. The opposite, to me, is a strange insistence that the only porn that is worthwhile is porn that is held up as a model, and that people who don't see pornography as a model are perverted. For me, that's like saying it's perverted to watch a trapeze artist, or a gymnast.
[+] [-] standardUser|3 years ago|reply
I think there are plenty of amazing "mainstream" porn scenes out there too, but they tend to get lost in an endless sea of repetitive sub-par pro porn.
[+] [-] dragontamer|3 years ago|reply
Male oriented erotica in book form is rare in US culture, but common in the Japanese light novel / visual novel community.
Books focus on characters thoughts and emotions because that's the medium of words.
-------
Most book-based erotica seems to be aimed at female audiences for some reason, so I think there is a bit of a cultural expectation here.
Still, with the growing popularity of erotic visual novels (and heck, just novels in general) I have to imagine that the male reader base exists out there.
-----
I'm not saying Hunniepop is the best written piece of literature I've seen. But there are words and emotions there, and a mild focus on what the various women want (albeit with the male sex fantasy slants).
Since the majority of the game is in fact, reading mundane situations and figuring out which gifts work best for each girl (ie gameplay mechanic to force the players into reading the story), it forces the player to at least explore the female characters a bit before you get the porno scene.
[+] [-] ldjb|3 years ago|reply
Obviously everyone's tastes are different but, broadly speaking, the most popular porn videos do not tend to be the most romantic or sensual. That said, there are many niches in porn, and videos made for women can be very successful within that niche.
Producers are incentivised to create videos that will sell. It's not much good if a video is popular on free tube sites but nobody pays for it. There is evidence to suggest that women are a lot less likely to pay for porn than men are, and there is therefore a lot less of an incentive to create porn for that demographic.
Creating romantic/passionate porn is not easy! The script and casting (amongst many other things) need to be just right for it to work. Therefore it's going to take more time and effort. So many studios will focus on mass producing videos. There's an obvious trade-off between quality and quantity, and many studios will have found that it's just more profitable to churn out videos as quickly as possible.
[+] [-] ralusek|3 years ago|reply
This is the case for me about 75% of the time, unless I'm in "a mood."
[+] [-] danbmil99|3 years ago|reply
Free online porn is not optimized for people's tastes. It's optimized to attract the people who are so obsessed that they're going to click through and actually buy products that are advertised at some point.
[+] [-] herbst|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] frebo|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] superchroma|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] User23|3 years ago|reply
Male and female sexual function aren’t particularly comparable either. If a man can’t get an erection then sexual intercourse just isn’t going to happen. There’s no hard analog for women. That’s just one example, there are many others.
> and enhanced partner-reported sexual satisfaction (for some aspects)."
I read this as something like: women who watch porn are more likely to perform fellatio well.
[+] [-] jinjin2|3 years ago|reply
“The findings reveal the irony that porn – a male-dominated industry that targets a male-dominated audience – is associated with the erosion of the quality of men's sex lives and the improvement of women's sex lives.”
[+] [-] dundarious|3 years ago|reply
> In June 2015, the French YouTuber Mathieu Sommet posted an online video that invited his followers to complete a questionnaire entitled ‘Sexual profile of adults’.^2 A total of 171 462 participants (18+ year-olds) started the questionnaire, and 101 572 finished it.
There’s probably some value in the study, but it’s probably inappropriate to draw hard conclusions from it (pun not intended).
[+] [-] stickfigure|3 years ago|reply
As a rough approximation, it's probably fair to assign it the same value as youtube comments.
[+] [-] tmsh|3 years ago|reply
There’s also the degree and how long one looks at porn. And how that can free up time for other things that are attractive in relationships (financial security etc). As a hypothetical consider a person who looks at porn for 5min every two days, and stays very focused on accumulating wealth for a few years and then reduces this and focuses more on sexual performance.
[+] [-] emptysongglass|3 years ago|reply
I think this is sending the wrong signal to readers. Yes, ninety percent of the time it is worth optimizing for. It's literally what we're wired to do and your partner will appreciate it.
That doesn't mean that that ten percent of an outlier doesn't exist but broadcasting doubt that it is worth optimizing for is not the wisdom most people need to hear.
[+] [-] unknownsky|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emptysongglass|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zeroonetwothree|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] nonamenoslogan|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] theplumber|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] superb-owl|3 years ago|reply
I wonder if the effect would hold if there were more porn that caters to women. Or if consumption of romance novels has a similar but inverted effect.
[+] [-] standardUser|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jquaint|3 years ago|reply
> Accordingly, and contrary to what is often suggested in popular books on the psychology of pornography (e.g. Zimbardo & Coulombe, Reference Zimbardo and Coulombe2015), men who face sexual problems and choose to terminate porn use may experience only marginal improvements in their sexual lives (assuming that we can draw causal inferences from our findings); similarly, women who face sexual problems might be well advised not to consider porn use to be a sexual panacea.
This is interesting for sure but you can't draw sweeping conclusions from this research.
[+] [-] tpoacher|3 years ago|reply
Are ♧ and ♤ true? Or did the paper just make this factoid up on the spot? My gut feeling would have been that it's dominated by women instead, and that the audience skewness would be a reflection of that more than anything.
[+] [-] georgia_peach|3 years ago|reply
Latest example: Taylorism, applied to the bedroom.
[+] [-] badrabbit|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway81523|3 years ago|reply
Result (TLDR): for men, 0; for women, 1.
[+] [-] Ycombigatorz|3 years ago|reply
In broad brush strokes : Women know what arouses men from watching porn. Men know what arouses themselves from watching porn.
[+] [-] collegeburner|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] idrios|3 years ago|reply
But also take solace that this is becoming more common knowledge among young people anyway, despite older generations being in denial over it.
[+] [-] vonseel|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]