I must say, that's the most aggravating site I've read recently.
It's bad enough to start off the page by begging me to give it my email address (how about no?). But then I start scrolling down and... bingo, black screen and another begging for my email address. Sure, I could track down that little "close" button, but it's easier to close the tab and make a mental note to never look at the site again.
I love Berlin, but please let's cut the hyperbole:
Beautiful nature, lakes, canals, and parks
It's a pretty city, in some parts, but "Europe's greenest city" is just bullshit. And maybe technically there are more canals than in Venice and Amsterdam, but in reality you'll find that you have to walk quite a bit to get from one canal to the next, where in Venice and Amsterdam they are a defining part of the city.
Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
Around Eastern Europe, yes. Travelling to the UK, France, Spain, Italy, or Switzerland is easier from other parts of the continent.
The amazing, delicious döner kebabs
I like kebabs as much as the next guy and it's probably true that you can get the best ones in Berlin, but let's be honest, it's drunk food and often made from questionable ingredients.
That said, there really is lots of awesome food in Berlin in all price categories and from all the cuisines of the world. In fact, eating out in Berlin is such a great experience in general that I'm not sure why kebabs deserve special mention.
Again, I love Berlin and maneesh's other points hold true, I just don't think it needs to be glorified beyond what it is -- a wonderful, amazing city that isn't the most pretty one and isn't really the very best location in Europe in terms of climate and travelling options.
@maneesh: don't take this the wrong way, glad to hear you've had a great time, sounds like a lot of fun!
I live in a 1750 square foot penthouse apartment (two floors, 14' ceilings, hardwood throughout), with easy access to two different subway lines (U8 and the S41/42 ring). I can be anywhere in the inhabited part of the city in under 25 minutes.
I pay $1400/month. That's $9/sqft/year, or $0.80/sqft/month. Did I mention that's including heat?
Berlin is a world-class city. There are several authorized Apple service centers (and they're building an Apple Store right now), Canon service centers, and big box retailers. There are great restaurants and hotels and conference centers and such because it's the federal capital, and all the embassies and consulates are here, this country being the largest economy in the EU.
I defy you to find me another city in the first world where one can live so cheaply, with access to the benefits of a truly world-class city such as Berlin has. It's simply not possible (and indeed, in the trendiest parts of town, rents have gone up 100% in the last 5-7 years).
It won't last, but we've got at least 3-7 years left before it turns into another stuffy expensive boring German city.
>It's a pretty city, in some parts, but "Europe's greenest city" is just bullshit. And maybe technically there are more canals than in Venice and Amsterdam, but in reality you'll find that you have to walk quite a bit to get from one canal to the next, where in Venice and Amsterdam they are a defining part of the city.
I grew up in Berlin, when the wall was still up (it came down when I was in the 4th grade, and we left the summer after I finished 5th grade). We flew out of the city to spend major holidays with family back in the states, but in the eleven years I lived there, I left the city via ground transportation exactly three times (all for class trips). Despite hardly ever leaving the city, I regularly went on camping trips with the scouts where it felt like I was in the middle of the wilderness. I also regularly went on walks through sections of the Grünewald (forest/parkland) near my home, and could get so far in that city noise would completely disappear. People would get lost in the Grünewald in the winter and wander around for days before either finally stumbling out onto a street, dying of exposure, or being killed by wild boars. I don't know any other city on Earth that contains such large tracts of wildlands inside the city.
As for the canals, they're completely different. They are best enjoyed via river boat cruises, not on walks.
>I like kebabs as much as the next guy and it's probably true that you can get the best ones in Berlin, but let's be honest, it's drunk food and often made from questionable ingredients.
I was way too young to be drinking when I lived in Berlin, but they were still my favorite food. I've been back since, and have consumed them both drunk and sober as an adult, and still think that Berliner Dönners are one of the best foods on Earth. I've been all over the world, and I've never had a Dönner Kebab that stacks up to the ones in Berlin. I've eaten Dönner Kebabs and equivalents (Shwarma, Gyros, etc.) all over the middle east and mediteranean (Turkey, Greece, Israel, Bahrain, Dubai, etc.), places where you would expect the Kebabs to be better, but they're not as good as in Berlin. The only thing that came close were some Shwarma I bought from a Lebanese cafe in Cyprus.
There are some things I don't like about Berlin. The biggest is that the public transportation is dirty, and in some places unsafe at certain hours. When I grew up there, the public transportation was clean and safe (as a grade-schooler, I was allowed to range all over the city with my friends, riding the buses and subways with no adult supervision). When I went back to visit for the first time a few years later, I was shocked at how dirty and poorly-kept they had become.
Couldn't read the article as the server is overloaded. But I have some thoughts about the headline. This may contain some hyperbole, you have been warned.
I don't understand Berlins appeal. It has one fatal flaw: no industry. In my opinion the great parts of Germany are where the world-famous "Mittelstand" sits. Is that in Berlin? I would argue it's not. Berlin is called "the city of students, the unemployed and cab drivers" by many, and probably not without reason.
Berlin is our hipster-central. However German engineers much prefer the living standards of Bavaria or BW instead of getting their Audi/BMW/Merc torched and their property vandalized. You're not getting lots of these people to move to Berlin. Big (US) IT corps know this, almost all of them have their headquarters in the south.
Now, if you're after 20somethings with no family, low income expectations and you build webapps using $WhateverIsCoolOnHN that targets other 20somethings around the globe - sure, go to Berlin. But then why don't you start wherever you are and get going instead of looking for another excuse that delays your product?
If your business plan even remotely involves selling goods or services to companies, you've chosen the wrong spot of Germany. The same is true for finances, Berlin is constantly broke and banks cling on to their money for obvious reasons.
And if your business plan involves pushing lots of data, you should be in Frankfurt.
I spent a month in Berlin last year with the idea of possibly staying there longer-term. I had a great time there, and I might go back, but it does seem to be a young person's culture. It would be an amazing place to be 20-25.
Quote:
"I think you only need two kinds of people to create a technology hub: rich people and nerds. "
Regarding Nerds:
There are certainly a lot of nerds in Berlin. Are they elite technology geeks? Maybe. But lots of such nerds are willing to move to Berlin. Check passed.
Regarding Rich people/investors:
There are actually relatively few rich people in Berlin. (Berlin is so cheap for a reason: it is a very poor city). So this key success factor is still underrepresented. Check NOT passed.
I live in Munich and just the opposite is true -- well, sort of. We've got lots of nerds and plenty of money but not much entrepreneurial activity. Too sedentary -- but why?
Berlin is an awesome city, I had the chance to spend a week or so there a few years back and it's one of the few places I would consider moving overseas to live.
There is a big difference though between west berlin and the ex-communist east berlin , for one thing expect to pay around twice as much for a beer in west as in east.
The public transport system as well as any municipal services we used whilst there were a model of legendary German efficiency, not to mention cheap as transport is subsidized by the state.
The nightlife is excellent but I certainly advise chatting to the local partygoers (most are friendly enough) as they will know the more cool out of the way places to go.
Beer is also very cheap in east berlin , especially from supermarkets and drinking it on the streets or public transport is not the taboo that it is in the UK and other places.
The general vibe of the nightlife I experienced was quite different to Britain with much more sensibly paced drinking going on throughout the night and a generally social , jovial atmosphere unlike UK Cities which seem to cater increasingly to insular gangs of drunks who go out ingest large amounts of lager so quickly they throw up whilst they go on the hunt for fights or casual back-alley sex.
And those Doner kebabs sure look allot more appetizing than the ones found in takeaways in Britain.
I would add that "cheap" usually extends to some parts of the former West, namely Kreuzberg (quite a few startup/tech meetups there), Neukölln, and Wedding (not my personal favourite but definitely cheap), all of those used to be "in the shadow of the wall".
When we had a larger apartment and were trying to find people to rent one of the rooms for a few months, wg-gesucht.de was very useful, though that was a few years ago.
Agreed on all points. I'd also recommend checking out the the Mitwohnzentrale, which was IIRC located near KuDamm. Mitwohnzentrale ("Live-Share Center") derives in spirit from the Mitfahrzentrale ("Ride-Share Center"), and it is basically a semi-formalized arrangement for subletting apartments. When I dropped by during a visit to Berlin years ago, I saw a listing for a nice apartment near KuDamm that rivaled my apartment in [mid-sized Midwest US city] in terms of rent. AirBNB inherits much from the Mitwohnzentrale. http://www.mitwohnzentrale.de/
Two other significant downsides of Berlin are that there are no mountains around, and it's so far north it's rather cold and the days are very short during winter.
Germany is the land of tech startups. But not Web technologies. Germany is predominantly engineering based. And the industry is more in the south.
Germany is ideal if you want to work on the latest car assistant systems, on technologies for building the next generation skyscrapers in Dubai and China, or on green technologies. Programming is often a byproduct of those development, but those are interesting fields non the less.
I'm German myself and I'm always cringing a bit when it comes to German statups. At least in the past most of the 'bigger' ones were copies of already existing ideas and there is always the ones that seem to be afraid of new technology ("we use j2ee, oracle and hibernate").
Could somebody name a few successful Berlin (or German) startups besides soundcloud?
I love Berlin, but I recommend Hamburg over Berlin. Here in Hamburg, we don't have super-cheap housing, but there is one big advantage: Lots of capital. I'm currently working hard on getting more entrepreneurial and startup events going in Hamburg, because every time you talk to people from abroad and mention you're a startup in Germay, they all go "Oh, Berlin?" No, actually, we have several nice cities. Hamburg probably has the highest quality of life (compared to Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt). Berlin is fun if you like the scruffy look and hopping from one thing to the next, Hamburg is better if you want to live and build something sustainable.
> they all go "Oh, Berlin?" No, actually, we have several nice cities. Hamburg probably has the highest quality of life
your comment reminded about scene from movie I.Q (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110099/) where very "proper" man, James Moreland is doing the experiment with the mouse. There are two switches the mouse can press: one that gives him food and one that gives him orgazm. The mouse hasn't eaten in three days. Moreland is genuily perplexed how this could possibly be the case ...
I have now lived in Berlin for a couple of months - I like it, even when it is winter :)
I'm self-employed one-man-business, and at first I thought about applying for "real work" so that I would better integrate to the new city. Since then I have changed my mind. There are lots of different technology events, and it is very easy to meet new people. There are numerous co-working spaces, if you don't want to work from home. Freelancing, startups and self-employment are seen as normal career choice (not like in Finland, where I come from).
I have tried to pick up a little german, and I can understand it now a little bit - but it seems that almost everybody speaks fluent english, so it doesn't seem to be necessary.
I've found Berlin to be a bit of a cluterfuck. I stay in Kruezburg near the Kotti so this probably skews my perceptions. Everyday there is a battle between pedestrians, bicyclists, and cars. Each group fighting each other.
I agree that almost every traditional German speaks English but a lot of the Turkish decent Germans don't.
I'll preface this with the fact that I love Berlin. I'm a US citizen that has German permanent residence and has been in Germany for 10 years and Berlin for 5. But this post is full of fawning:
1) Incredibly cheap cost of living for a European capital
This is true. Berlin is freakishly cheap.
2) Berlin has an amazing startup culture
No, it doesn't. It's trending positive, but at present Berlin has a mediocre startup culture. It's not even in the same league as the valley and also behind NYC, Boston, London and Tel Aviv (and possibly a few more).
Pop quiz: Can you name 5 large Berlin exits? 5 Berlin angel investors that do more than a couple deals a year? 5 VC firms with offices in Berlin? I can't do any of those off the top of my head. I can actually answer those for several of the mentioned cities that I don't even live in. (Note: I'm not saying that there aren't answers for those that I could find with research, but it should give some sense for the relative magnitudes.)
3) Incredible music scene and nightlife
Also true. Though the clubs listed there are kind of the touriste deluxe. What makes Berlin is the grimy underground places. Also, it's great for some genres, terrible for some (i.e. jazz in Berlin is pretty lame).
What's more important and not mentioned is that Berlin is probably the best city to be in for the arts in general right now in the West. The nightlife is just one outgrowth of that.
4) Beautiful nature, lakes, canals, and parks
Sorry, but Berlin is a pretty ugly city. If you want pretty, go to Prague. London and Paris are also a lot prettier than Berlin. In fact, I could list another dozen cities that are. Also, I know of several cities that claim the "most canals" thing (Hamburg among them). At any rate, does anyone really care how many canals there are? While you can find some pretty spots in Berlin, if this is high on your list of reasons to move to a city, Berlin doesn't score well.
5) The awesome history, abandoned buildings, and street art (and relaxed police)
The anecdote about the police there is ... well, I can say that the author hasn't been at many parties shut down by the police. The usual modus operandi is 2-3 police tell the organizers that they've got half an hour to shut things down or else they're coming back with a bunch of police. They're generally pretty chilled out, except when they're not. In rare cases, usually inexplicably, the riot police get called in and let's just say they're not known for their friendliness.
The abandoned buildings are in large part due to the fact that both people and industry left the city when it was divided. Berlin's peak population was about half a million more than it has now.
6) Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
No, it doesn't. Prague or Warsaw, maybe. But it's quite a ways from the usual tourist fare in western Europe.
7) The amazing, delicious döner kebabs
Bleh. They seem neat because they're new. Let's talk again when you've downed your first 100 of them. They're just junky fast-food. I usually can't finish one anymore without getting nauseous.
Other misnomers from comments:
• Everyone speaks English in Berlin
No, they don't. In fact, I'd be surprised if half do. People over 35 from the east, people without a college education, blue collar workers, etc. usually don't. And quite a few educated folks don't either.
• The cheap parts of Berlin are the old communist parts
Also false. Neukölln is the currently trendy spot, and Kreuzberg was before it. Both are in the former west Berlin. Before that Friedrichshain and Prenzlauerberg were the in spots and they were both in the east.
I'm tempted to spend a bit of time there next year. I occasionally do some work for some guys not too far away from Berlin so I have something I can justify it with (northern working class roots means I still think of travel as bourgeois frippery). I'd be interested to see any lists of meetups/that kind of thing that happen regularly.
My dad spent some time there in his army days and I remember him telling me that beer was cheaper than a cup of tea from the roadside stops. Glad to hear that's still the case!
How difficult is it for one to get the proper visas to Germany (EU?). What are the requirements of obtaining a visa? Can I start a business or work for some one on a tourist visa?
I've been on two several week long trips to Germany and Austria this year and I've absolutely loved it. Unfortunately, my boss isn't willing to transfer me over to Europe. If anyone is hiring, I'm looking pretty much anywhere in Germany, Austria, or Czech. Email in profile. I'm an engineer, but not software (mechanical). Experience working as Linux sysadmin and enjoy Python. Willing to work (relatively) cheap for the right experience.
I'm about to complete my second week in Berlin. I'm doing some Ruby programming with some friends. It's been an exciting experience so far, I'll be around for a couple of months.
Anyone up for some meetups or beers? I'd like to get to know the hacker or gamedev scene here, it would be great.
I haven't had any problems with my half baked English yet. The guys at the döner that don't speak English, can understand half baked sign language pretty well.
As no one has written extensively about visas and the OP has glorified Berlin without saying how to legally become a resident and earn money, I'll try to do it (and tell you a nice little story in the process).
Short intro: I have lived in Germany for more than 15 years. I have learned the language and subsequently studied CompSci there, I love so many things about Germany, I have family and friends there, I still follow what's happening there through the media, I have worked there as a developer and consultant.
(All info is for non-EU citizens)
Working with tourist visa is impossible. Legally.
Obtaining the student visa (the same OP had/has) is fairly easy. And you can work with it. But only for an employer (so, no freelancing, no incorporating). And for 19 hrs/week maximum. If you work more, German IRS ("Finanzamt") will contact your employer and you both can get in trouble.
Obtaining other kinds of visas is much harder. You need both the staying visa ("Aufenthaltserlaubnis") from the Immigration Service ("Ausländerbehörde") and the work permit ("Arbeitserlaubnis") from the Employment Center ("Bundesagentur für Arbeit"). If there are no German and EU citizens available for the job, and you have the qualification that is in shortage, and your employer has proven all that to the Immigration Service (process that can take months - it's time and money consuming) and is willing to pay you at least €60.000 a year (which is quite a lot!) then, and only then you can get the work permit. Needless to say, finding an employer who's willing to go through that procedure isn't easy. Caveat: You are quite dependent on that employer afterwards.
Obtaining visa for incorporating a company is the hardest thing! There are two ways:
1. If you have had staying visa and work permit for more that five years you can apply for permanent residence ("Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis"). The procedure lasts three to six months and if you are (as German politicians like to say) "integrated" (you speak fluent German, know the country, have German friends, no criminal record, not a terrorist etc.) there is no major thing that'd hinder you to become permanent resident. With permanent residence you can incorporate whatever you want (sole proprietorship, a company).
2. This is a lesser known way: If your staying visa and work permit is "younger" than five years you can write a business plan. Immigration Service will pass it to the local Chamber of Commerce ("Handelskammer") and after the positive review they'll give a green light and Immigration Service will add to your visa that you are allowed to incorporate. That's how it should work. On paper. The real life is different.
As this is a lesser known way, I know only one guy who has tried it. Great credentials: Studied in Germany, flawless German, "integrated" (gosh, I hate that word), very competent. Worked for a year, and didn't want to wait for another four to be allowed to incorporate. Had a great idea. Wrote a great business plan. And went through limbo with it. In order to get to the positive outcome he, preemptively, has contacted and worked with the Chamber of Commerce guy who has worked on his case. That guy would return the business plan every week with new "potential problems" in it. My friend would improve it, send the new version, CoC guy would again find fault with his plan, and the game would start again. And go on for almost eight months.
To cut to the chase, my friend went to a high civil servant ("Oberstadtinspektor") with the local Immigration Service and what the civil servant has told him was revealing. His exact words were: "If I let you stay here, what should I do if, due to you business activity, a German business loses a contract and complains against us." My friend answered that he cannot rule out that such thing won't happen. But in that case, his company will still employ Germans and pay taxes in Germany - German state would still benefit from his venture. Otherwise, if he'd incorporate somewhere else, that scenario could still happen, but he wouldn't employ Germans and pay taxes in Germany. Civil servant answered "I've told you everything I can."
My friend, disappointed, returned to his home country realizing that such way of thinking was also the reason CoC guy behaved the way he behaved (in my friend's words "No German is willing to take responsibility for allowing ANY foreigner to stay in Germany"). He calls himself an "Economic Hitman" (yes, he's John Perkins fan :))): He now owns a tech company that employs 80 people, and uses his knowledge of the German culture, language, businesses to work exclusively with Germany. And to INTENTIONALLY make that scenario happen. And it has happened a few times (that he's aware of): German businesses were not taken, his was. His competitive advantage is, for one reason, the fact that his company is NOT in Germany. In his country labor is cheaper and he pays a lot less taxes than in Germany - giving him leverage over German companies.
The irony: Those (civil servants) who's mission is to to the best for the citizens and the state have failed miserably. And, on the top of that, have proven to have NO CLUE about economy as they do not realize that economy is NOT a zero-sum game.
For awhile now I've been pondering the possibility of relocating my family to europe for awhile. How hard is it for someone who can start his own business to come there to found a company? How difficult is it to get a work permit to move to an EU state, if you can find an employer who will hire you?
You can get a work visa (similar to US green card) if you can find a job that pays more then 46000 Euro/Year. That is the typical IT starting salary for companies like SAP or Microsoft Germany - if you are good ;)
I'd love to move to Berlin just for the hacker scene that is there, centered around Chaos Computer Club. The open source / hacking / copyleft scene seems bigger there than other places in Europe, at least from what I felt when I was there for Chaos Communication Conference.
[+] [-] hugh3|14 years ago|reply
It's bad enough to start off the page by begging me to give it my email address (how about no?). But then I start scrolling down and... bingo, black screen and another begging for my email address. Sure, I could track down that little "close" button, but it's easier to close the tab and make a mental note to never look at the site again.
[+] [-] julian37|14 years ago|reply
Beautiful nature, lakes, canals, and parks
It's a pretty city, in some parts, but "Europe's greenest city" is just bullshit. And maybe technically there are more canals than in Venice and Amsterdam, but in reality you'll find that you have to walk quite a bit to get from one canal to the next, where in Venice and Amsterdam they are a defining part of the city.
Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
Around Eastern Europe, yes. Travelling to the UK, France, Spain, Italy, or Switzerland is easier from other parts of the continent.
The amazing, delicious döner kebabs
I like kebabs as much as the next guy and it's probably true that you can get the best ones in Berlin, but let's be honest, it's drunk food and often made from questionable ingredients.
That said, there really is lots of awesome food in Berlin in all price categories and from all the cuisines of the world. In fact, eating out in Berlin is such a great experience in general that I'm not sure why kebabs deserve special mention.
Again, I love Berlin and maneesh's other points hold true, I just don't think it needs to be glorified beyond what it is -- a wonderful, amazing city that isn't the most pretty one and isn't really the very best location in Europe in terms of climate and travelling options.
@maneesh: don't take this the wrong way, glad to hear you've had a great time, sounds like a lot of fun!
[+] [-] sneak|14 years ago|reply
I live in a 1750 square foot penthouse apartment (two floors, 14' ceilings, hardwood throughout), with easy access to two different subway lines (U8 and the S41/42 ring). I can be anywhere in the inhabited part of the city in under 25 minutes.
I pay $1400/month. That's $9/sqft/year, or $0.80/sqft/month. Did I mention that's including heat?
Berlin is a world-class city. There are several authorized Apple service centers (and they're building an Apple Store right now), Canon service centers, and big box retailers. There are great restaurants and hotels and conference centers and such because it's the federal capital, and all the embassies and consulates are here, this country being the largest economy in the EU.
I defy you to find me another city in the first world where one can live so cheaply, with access to the benefits of a truly world-class city such as Berlin has. It's simply not possible (and indeed, in the trendiest parts of town, rents have gone up 100% in the last 5-7 years).
It won't last, but we've got at least 3-7 years left before it turns into another stuffy expensive boring German city.
[+] [-] xtracto|14 years ago|reply
Yup, that would be Frankfurt. A new Berlin airport is being built but the last time I read about it it was quite delayed.
[+] [-] lucasjung|14 years ago|reply
I grew up in Berlin, when the wall was still up (it came down when I was in the 4th grade, and we left the summer after I finished 5th grade). We flew out of the city to spend major holidays with family back in the states, but in the eleven years I lived there, I left the city via ground transportation exactly three times (all for class trips). Despite hardly ever leaving the city, I regularly went on camping trips with the scouts where it felt like I was in the middle of the wilderness. I also regularly went on walks through sections of the Grünewald (forest/parkland) near my home, and could get so far in that city noise would completely disappear. People would get lost in the Grünewald in the winter and wander around for days before either finally stumbling out onto a street, dying of exposure, or being killed by wild boars. I don't know any other city on Earth that contains such large tracts of wildlands inside the city.
As for the canals, they're completely different. They are best enjoyed via river boat cruises, not on walks.
>I like kebabs as much as the next guy and it's probably true that you can get the best ones in Berlin, but let's be honest, it's drunk food and often made from questionable ingredients.
I was way too young to be drinking when I lived in Berlin, but they were still my favorite food. I've been back since, and have consumed them both drunk and sober as an adult, and still think that Berliner Dönners are one of the best foods on Earth. I've been all over the world, and I've never had a Dönner Kebab that stacks up to the ones in Berlin. I've eaten Dönner Kebabs and equivalents (Shwarma, Gyros, etc.) all over the middle east and mediteranean (Turkey, Greece, Israel, Bahrain, Dubai, etc.), places where you would expect the Kebabs to be better, but they're not as good as in Berlin. The only thing that came close were some Shwarma I bought from a Lebanese cafe in Cyprus.
There are some things I don't like about Berlin. The biggest is that the public transportation is dirty, and in some places unsafe at certain hours. When I grew up there, the public transportation was clean and safe (as a grade-schooler, I was allowed to range all over the city with my friends, riding the buses and subways with no adult supervision). When I went back to visit for the first time a few years later, I was shocked at how dirty and poorly-kept they had become.
[+] [-] tobiasu|14 years ago|reply
I don't understand Berlins appeal. It has one fatal flaw: no industry. In my opinion the great parts of Germany are where the world-famous "Mittelstand" sits. Is that in Berlin? I would argue it's not. Berlin is called "the city of students, the unemployed and cab drivers" by many, and probably not without reason.
Berlin is our hipster-central. However German engineers much prefer the living standards of Bavaria or BW instead of getting their Audi/BMW/Merc torched and their property vandalized. You're not getting lots of these people to move to Berlin. Big (US) IT corps know this, almost all of them have their headquarters in the south.
Now, if you're after 20somethings with no family, low income expectations and you build webapps using $WhateverIsCoolOnHN that targets other 20somethings around the globe - sure, go to Berlin. But then why don't you start wherever you are and get going instead of looking for another excuse that delays your product?
If your business plan even remotely involves selling goods or services to companies, you've chosen the wrong spot of Germany. The same is true for finances, Berlin is constantly broke and banks cling on to their money for obvious reasons.
And if your business plan involves pushing lots of data, you should be in Frankfurt.
[+] [-] cageface|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imran|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] organico|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] knb|14 years ago|reply
http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
Quote: "I think you only need two kinds of people to create a technology hub: rich people and nerds. "
Regarding Nerds: There are certainly a lot of nerds in Berlin. Are they elite technology geeks? Maybe. But lots of such nerds are willing to move to Berlin. Check passed.
Regarding Rich people/investors: There are actually relatively few rich people in Berlin. (Berlin is so cheap for a reason: it is a very poor city). So this key success factor is still underrepresented. Check NOT passed.
Just sayin'.
Don't expect too much.
[+] [-] Jd|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jiggy2011|14 years ago|reply
There is a big difference though between west berlin and the ex-communist east berlin , for one thing expect to pay around twice as much for a beer in west as in east.
The public transport system as well as any municipal services we used whilst there were a model of legendary German efficiency, not to mention cheap as transport is subsidized by the state.
The nightlife is excellent but I certainly advise chatting to the local partygoers (most are friendly enough) as they will know the more cool out of the way places to go.
Beer is also very cheap in east berlin , especially from supermarkets and drinking it on the streets or public transport is not the taboo that it is in the UK and other places.
The general vibe of the nightlife I experienced was quite different to Britain with much more sensibly paced drinking going on throughout the night and a generally social , jovial atmosphere unlike UK Cities which seem to cater increasingly to insular gangs of drunks who go out ingest large amounts of lager so quickly they throw up whilst they go on the hunt for fights or casual back-alley sex.
And those Doner kebabs sure look allot more appetizing than the ones found in takeaways in Britain.
[+] [-] kaiwetzel|14 years ago|reply
When we had a larger apartment and were trying to find people to rent one of the rooms for a few months, wg-gesucht.de was very useful, though that was a few years ago.
[+] [-] westbywest|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] metachris|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maigret|14 years ago|reply
Germany is ideal if you want to work on the latest car assistant systems, on technologies for building the next generation skyscrapers in Dubai and China, or on green technologies. Programming is often a byproduct of those development, but those are interesting fields non the less.
[+] [-] bad_user|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rb2k_|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bartman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spahl|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eogas|14 years ago|reply
>You should subscribe to my blog via email below...
Hello Maneesh. You have just guaranteed that I will never visit your blog again.
[+] [-] moeffju|14 years ago|reply
And it's only 1:40h from Berlin by train... :)
[+] [-] VladRussian|14 years ago|reply
your comment reminded about scene from movie I.Q (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110099/) where very "proper" man, James Moreland is doing the experiment with the mouse. There are two switches the mouse can press: one that gives him food and one that gives him orgazm. The mouse hasn't eaten in three days. Moreland is genuily perplexed how this could possibly be the case ...
[+] [-] Jd|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] egor83|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jerguismi|14 years ago|reply
I'm self-employed one-man-business, and at first I thought about applying for "real work" so that I would better integrate to the new city. Since then I have changed my mind. There are lots of different technology events, and it is very easy to meet new people. There are numerous co-working spaces, if you don't want to work from home. Freelancing, startups and self-employment are seen as normal career choice (not like in Finland, where I come from).
I have tried to pick up a little german, and I can understand it now a little bit - but it seems that almost everybody speaks fluent english, so it doesn't seem to be necessary.
[+] [-] yequalsx|14 years ago|reply
I agree that almost every traditional German speaks English but a lot of the Turkish decent Germans don't.
[+] [-] wheels|14 years ago|reply
1) Incredibly cheap cost of living for a European capital
This is true. Berlin is freakishly cheap.
2) Berlin has an amazing startup culture
No, it doesn't. It's trending positive, but at present Berlin has a mediocre startup culture. It's not even in the same league as the valley and also behind NYC, Boston, London and Tel Aviv (and possibly a few more).
Pop quiz: Can you name 5 large Berlin exits? 5 Berlin angel investors that do more than a couple deals a year? 5 VC firms with offices in Berlin? I can't do any of those off the top of my head. I can actually answer those for several of the mentioned cities that I don't even live in. (Note: I'm not saying that there aren't answers for those that I could find with research, but it should give some sense for the relative magnitudes.)
3) Incredible music scene and nightlife
Also true. Though the clubs listed there are kind of the touriste deluxe. What makes Berlin is the grimy underground places. Also, it's great for some genres, terrible for some (i.e. jazz in Berlin is pretty lame).
What's more important and not mentioned is that Berlin is probably the best city to be in for the arts in general right now in the West. The nightlife is just one outgrowth of that.
4) Beautiful nature, lakes, canals, and parks
Sorry, but Berlin is a pretty ugly city. If you want pretty, go to Prague. London and Paris are also a lot prettier than Berlin. In fact, I could list another dozen cities that are. Also, I know of several cities that claim the "most canals" thing (Hamburg among them). At any rate, does anyone really care how many canals there are? While you can find some pretty spots in Berlin, if this is high on your list of reasons to move to a city, Berlin doesn't score well.
5) The awesome history, abandoned buildings, and street art (and relaxed police)
The anecdote about the police there is ... well, I can say that the author hasn't been at many parties shut down by the police. The usual modus operandi is 2-3 police tell the organizers that they've got half an hour to shut things down or else they're coming back with a bunch of police. They're generally pretty chilled out, except when they're not. In rare cases, usually inexplicably, the riot police get called in and let's just say they're not known for their friendliness.
The abandoned buildings are in large part due to the fact that both people and industry left the city when it was divided. Berlin's peak population was about half a million more than it has now.
6) Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
No, it doesn't. Prague or Warsaw, maybe. But it's quite a ways from the usual tourist fare in western Europe.
7) The amazing, delicious döner kebabs
Bleh. They seem neat because they're new. Let's talk again when you've downed your first 100 of them. They're just junky fast-food. I usually can't finish one anymore without getting nauseous.
Other misnomers from comments:
• Everyone speaks English in Berlin
No, they don't. In fact, I'd be surprised if half do. People over 35 from the east, people without a college education, blue collar workers, etc. usually don't. And quite a few educated folks don't either.
• The cheap parts of Berlin are the old communist parts
Also false. Neukölln is the currently trendy spot, and Kreuzberg was before it. Both are in the former west Berlin. Before that Friedrichshain and Prenzlauerberg were the in spots and they were both in the east.
[+] [-] netnichols|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|14 years ago|reply
FYI, Lufthansa intends for BBI (upon completion) to function as a major hub, somewhat on par with FRA.
[+] [-] adeelk|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] JonnieCache|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maneesh|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sneak|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kingofspain|14 years ago|reply
My dad spent some time there in his army days and I remember him telling me that beer was cheaper than a cup of tea from the roadside stops. Glad to hear that's still the case!
[+] [-] maneesh|14 years ago|reply
We actually had Tim Ferriss come and speak to us, it was great.
You can also check out meetup.org, I see a lot of cool Startup Freelancer meetups there.
Lastly, check out Couchsurfing.org, there are AWESOME weekly meetups 3x / week.
[+] [-] zmanji|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] retroafroman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lobo_tuerto|14 years ago|reply
Anyone up for some meetups or beers? I'd like to get to know the hacker or gamedev scene here, it would be great.
I haven't had any problems with my half baked English yet. The guys at the döner that don't speak English, can understand half baked sign language pretty well.
[+] [-] bojanbabic|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] binarray2000|14 years ago|reply
Short intro: I have lived in Germany for more than 15 years. I have learned the language and subsequently studied CompSci there, I love so many things about Germany, I have family and friends there, I still follow what's happening there through the media, I have worked there as a developer and consultant.
(All info is for non-EU citizens)
Working with tourist visa is impossible. Legally.
Obtaining the student visa (the same OP had/has) is fairly easy. And you can work with it. But only for an employer (so, no freelancing, no incorporating). And for 19 hrs/week maximum. If you work more, German IRS ("Finanzamt") will contact your employer and you both can get in trouble.
Obtaining other kinds of visas is much harder. You need both the staying visa ("Aufenthaltserlaubnis") from the Immigration Service ("Ausländerbehörde") and the work permit ("Arbeitserlaubnis") from the Employment Center ("Bundesagentur für Arbeit"). If there are no German and EU citizens available for the job, and you have the qualification that is in shortage, and your employer has proven all that to the Immigration Service (process that can take months - it's time and money consuming) and is willing to pay you at least €60.000 a year (which is quite a lot!) then, and only then you can get the work permit. Needless to say, finding an employer who's willing to go through that procedure isn't easy. Caveat: You are quite dependent on that employer afterwards.
More info (in German, try Google translate):http://migration-business.de/2011/09/hochqualifizierte-raus-...
Obtaining visa for incorporating a company is the hardest thing! There are two ways:
1. If you have had staying visa and work permit for more that five years you can apply for permanent residence ("Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis"). The procedure lasts three to six months and if you are (as German politicians like to say) "integrated" (you speak fluent German, know the country, have German friends, no criminal record, not a terrorist etc.) there is no major thing that'd hinder you to become permanent resident. With permanent residence you can incorporate whatever you want (sole proprietorship, a company).
2. This is a lesser known way: If your staying visa and work permit is "younger" than five years you can write a business plan. Immigration Service will pass it to the local Chamber of Commerce ("Handelskammer") and after the positive review they'll give a green light and Immigration Service will add to your visa that you are allowed to incorporate. That's how it should work. On paper. The real life is different.
As this is a lesser known way, I know only one guy who has tried it. Great credentials: Studied in Germany, flawless German, "integrated" (gosh, I hate that word), very competent. Worked for a year, and didn't want to wait for another four to be allowed to incorporate. Had a great idea. Wrote a great business plan. And went through limbo with it. In order to get to the positive outcome he, preemptively, has contacted and worked with the Chamber of Commerce guy who has worked on his case. That guy would return the business plan every week with new "potential problems" in it. My friend would improve it, send the new version, CoC guy would again find fault with his plan, and the game would start again. And go on for almost eight months.
To cut to the chase, my friend went to a high civil servant ("Oberstadtinspektor") with the local Immigration Service and what the civil servant has told him was revealing. His exact words were: "If I let you stay here, what should I do if, due to you business activity, a German business loses a contract and complains against us." My friend answered that he cannot rule out that such thing won't happen. But in that case, his company will still employ Germans and pay taxes in Germany - German state would still benefit from his venture. Otherwise, if he'd incorporate somewhere else, that scenario could still happen, but he wouldn't employ Germans and pay taxes in Germany. Civil servant answered "I've told you everything I can."
My friend, disappointed, returned to his home country realizing that such way of thinking was also the reason CoC guy behaved the way he behaved (in my friend's words "No German is willing to take responsibility for allowing ANY foreigner to stay in Germany"). He calls himself an "Economic Hitman" (yes, he's John Perkins fan :))): He now owns a tech company that employs 80 people, and uses his knowledge of the German culture, language, businesses to work exclusively with Germany. And to INTENTIONALLY make that scenario happen. And it has happened a few times (that he's aware of): German businesses were not taken, his was. His competitive advantage is, for one reason, the fact that his company is NOT in Germany. In his country labor is cheaper and he pays a lot less taxes than in Germany - giving him leverage over German companies.
The irony: Those (civil servants) who's mission is to to the best for the citizens and the state have failed miserably. And, on the top of that, have proven to have NO CLUE about economy as they do not realize that economy is NOT a zero-sum game.
[+] [-] karmajunkie|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 80hours|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lflux|14 years ago|reply
Also the döner.