The author's blog post should come with a disclaimer :) .
A while ago I tried a few breathing techniques which were given in a nice book [0]. I really enjoyed the after-effects of the said techniques so I decided to mix and match some of them etc. The effects were awesome .. at first.
After a couple of weeks, I started feeling very low for no particular reason (no dietary changes or anything) and just downright weird. I eliminated one factor after another and checked if my energy levels were OK. I finally gave up the experiment on breathing techniques and restarted what was in the book. I am good, now.
So.. despite a sample size of one and a trial which wasn't random or controlled (:)) , my advice on this whole thing : Get a qualified teacher and do what is taught. YMMV otherwise.
Isn't that really sort of a turbocharged version of the hedonic treadmill? Anything that makes you feel good, if you do it enough, becomes the new level of 'normal' and you feel worse when you're not doing it. The better it makes you feel, the more intense the effect.
I have a family friend that recently had 2 strokes. The doctors are confused because he has none of the risk factors for a stroke. Really, he pretty closely follows this: (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32143344). However, he's been practicing breathing exercises for years and his resting heart rate is ridiculously low.
In short, the breathing increases epinephrine (adrenaline), which causes a spike in anti-inflammatory cytokines, and decreases inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-a.
It should be added that on the web I found several reports about increased tinnitus symptoms, which usually subside after the breathing is stopped, but for some it was permanent. This is why I am not doing it regularly, as I also get some ringing, but thankfully it was not permanent.
Nevertheless, I find this very method very exciting. I am glad Radboud took a look into it. However, I would love to see clinical trials on the method at last.
> “pushing in the brain” means creating high pressure in the lungs until you feel it in your head. Do NOT push the air literaly into the airways in your head, that will cause tinnitus
The high is nice but the main thing I took away - when doing WHM some years ago - is to tolerate the CO2 buildup by relaxing and calming myself.
The breathing pattern can help induce this; for me additionally learning to breath comfortably through the nose was a big help. But to tolerate CO2 (and with it physiologically adapting to it) is mainly a mental challenge to put your mind into a place where you stay calm enough not to panic when the urge to breath is trying to overwhelm you.
It really translates well to high-intensity sport exercises where at a certain exertion I was trying to breath too hard and too early with the mouth open in an attempt to take in as much air as possible and paradoxically feeling even more suffocated.
Also great for a relaxed swimming experience.
I feel once I began to apply breathing techniques into various activities throughout the day that I now got a deeper connection/appreciation/understanding/confidence for modulating my breathing. And WHM can certainly jumpstart that experience. But I personally wouldn't recommend to just chase the next high.
I want to offer you two responses each of which are absolutely genuine:
You must be fun at parties.
If you have never experienced your own body responding to your selective input (other than Mt. Dew) you are missing out... Ever hear of a "runner's high"? Dangerous indeed!
Why don't you try it out and see what happens, you have to breathe anyway
“Bathtub breathing” is pretty amazing for producing an altered state.
Basically, position yourself so that a deep breath in lifts your chest up and a breath out lets your chest sink. You can adjust so you basically breathe along with the resonant frequency of your body rising up and down in the tub. You get into a flow that is driven by natural mechanics and it can really take the mind to different places. Combines well with cannabis.
Don't do this. The last thing you want to be in is water doing breath work. I did a week long course with Wim Hof before he got popular, they were very adamant that you never do breath work in water. This is just ignorant and dangerous advice. I've been doing breath techniques for over 5 years now and would never do them in water even though I'm well practiced.
Expanding on why this is dangerous, doing these breathing exercises in water is bad because the drive to breath (excess co2 in blood) can be postponed via hyperventilating beforehand, but this means you can still pass out from a lack of oxygen in the blood. If this happens while you are in a bathtub, you will drown.
I discovered this as a kid simply trying to relax in the tub. Could sometimes leave my airways open but stop actually breathing for long periods of time. Very relaxed state. Probably the closest thing to an altered state of consciousness I’ve ever had. Haven’t done it in decades.
I moved to Seattle initially to get away from cold winters. Fast forward fifteen years and I’m gardening in light rain at 55° with no jacket on. And not just, “let me finish this and go have some soup” but going out after the rain has already started. It’s quiet and nobody bothers you, it’s not that cold as long as you don’t stop moving, and weeds are easier to pull.
My dad gets out his jacket when it’s 50° and dry, I’m still trying to decide if short sleeves were a bad idea. When I was a kid I was essentially nonfunctional if I was cold and we argued about that numerous times.
Capillary structure in the skin plays a role, but there’s a lot of mind over matter there as well. I have some strong doubts whether random people can learn to be like Wim Hof, but I don’t doubt that random people can learn to be more like Wim Hof.
Do you have a source that this kind of mild hypoxia is harmful to the brain, or is that just your conjecture? You may be right, but I’m skeptical. Starvation isn’t great for us, but there are many health benefits associated with fasting.
When somebody on HN says don't do something, it usually comes from a place of misinformed half baked knowledge of the subject so I say ignore these alarmists who think people are going to kill themselves by holding their breath after increasing oxygen in blood by several folds.
What this misses is that to keep the high going remove all breath holding. It just becomes continuous circular breathing — no holds, no pauses. This has been popularized by a lot of different people: Dan Brule, Leonard Orr, Binnie Dansby, Judith Kravitz. It comes under various names like: rebirthing, transformational breath and holotropic breathwork.
I’m mildly annoyed that this is called the wim hof method and not pranayama (specifically bahi kumbhaka) when he practiced yoga for years before he came up with this. The whole process is lifted — the hyperventilation followed by the holding your breath on the exhale.
horrible advice aside, you could benefit from becoming more mindful and self-aware. clearly this crowd could use a lot of that. empathy helps too if you were shown a lot of it growing up.
Don't mess around with your breathing without guidance. It can do more harm than good.
Pranayama is an ancient Indian science passed down from saints who received these teachings as divine visions. It didn't materialize as a result of experimentation as many would assume.
Even practices like Sudarshan kriya (which makes use of breathing) were passed down to Shri Shri as a divine teaching.
So my advice is to not experiment with your breathing unless you have proper guidance and knowledge.
First of all, I agree that breathing is too critical of a system to tamper with without a backup or assistance. I do think that the human body has a degree of flexibility though (we breathe heavily after exercise, and that's fine).
> Pranayama is an ancient Indian science passed down from saints who received these teachings as divine visions
I don't meant to offend, but that doesn't sound like any kind of science to me.
I am sure it has helped a lot of people and a lot of people believe in it. But if it doesn't come from hypothesis, experimentation, and, in the case of medical treatments, clinical trials, it simply isn't science. Or "ancient science".
There's another kind of belief system which accepts axioms coming from divine visions and divine teachings, though. It rhymes with "pigeon".
I have tried Win Hof and and other yoga pranayama several items with good success at first. But every time after a few weeks I develop a serious cough coming deep from my lungs. It's probably because of the dry air in Nevada and New Mexico but I don't know how to deal with this.
As a big fan of WHM which dramatically affects my physiology and psychology, I want to try this as soon as possible.
Question to ugjka: How many rounds of your customized method do you recommend? I usually feel the most high after 3rd round, do you think I need the same, less, or more?
I use the WHM to get high on drum and bass parties. The adrenaline that you have is higher than a first timer’s bungee jump when they are on their adrenaline peak [1].
[1] on the phone right bow but it is in the PNAS article about the WHM suppressing the immune system
While practicing, right when I start to get lightheaded and my vision gets a little sparkIy, i have an uncontrollable mini panic attack until my vision returns to normal. It's anything but relaxing in my experience.
[+] [-] vmurthy|3 years ago|reply
A while ago I tried a few breathing techniques which were given in a nice book [0]. I really enjoyed the after-effects of the said techniques so I decided to mix and match some of them etc. The effects were awesome .. at first.
After a couple of weeks, I started feeling very low for no particular reason (no dietary changes or anything) and just downright weird. I eliminated one factor after another and checked if my energy levels were OK. I finally gave up the experiment on breathing techniques and restarted what was in the book. I am good, now.
So.. despite a sample size of one and a trial which wasn't random or controlled (:)) , my advice on this whole thing : Get a qualified teacher and do what is taught. YMMV otherwise.
[0] https://www.amazon.in/gp/product/B07WSBS5S4/ref=kinw_myk_ro_...
[+] [-] CommieBobDole|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tsomctl|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philipwhiuk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crtxcr|3 years ago|reply
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24799686/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9071023/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpTG02x6w5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWHRumILOOk
In short, the breathing increases epinephrine (adrenaline), which causes a spike in anti-inflammatory cytokines, and decreases inflammatory cytokines such as TNF-a.
It should be added that on the web I found several reports about increased tinnitus symptoms, which usually subside after the breathing is stopped, but for some it was permanent. This is why I am not doing it regularly, as I also get some ringing, but thankfully it was not permanent.
Nevertheless, I find this very method very exciting. I am glad Radboud took a look into it. However, I would love to see clinical trials on the method at last.
[+] [-] ffhhj|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Semaphor|3 years ago|reply
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32285815
[+] [-] dav_Oz|3 years ago|reply
It really translates well to high-intensity sport exercises where at a certain exertion I was trying to breath too hard and too early with the mouth open in an attempt to take in as much air as possible and paradoxically feeling even more suffocated. Also great for a relaxed swimming experience.
I feel once I began to apply breathing techniques into various activities throughout the day that I now got a deeper connection/appreciation/understanding/confidence for modulating my breathing. And WHM can certainly jumpstart that experience. But I personally wouldn't recommend to just chase the next high.
[+] [-] phonypc|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yellow_lead|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Quequau|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guzik|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] upsidesinclude|3 years ago|reply
You must be fun at parties.
If you have never experienced your own body responding to your selective input (other than Mt. Dew) you are missing out... Ever hear of a "runner's high"? Dangerous indeed!
Why don't you try it out and see what happens, you have to breathe anyway
[+] [-] yomkippur|3 years ago|reply
edit: so if you think Wim Hof is just getting recreational high then you should continue taking whatever drug you are on such as lead.
[+] [-] dr_dshiv|3 years ago|reply
Basically, position yourself so that a deep breath in lifts your chest up and a breath out lets your chest sink. You can adjust so you basically breathe along with the resonant frequency of your body rising up and down in the tub. You get into a flow that is driven by natural mechanics and it can really take the mind to different places. Combines well with cannabis.
Safety note: don’t drown.
[+] [-] windexh8er|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] muwtyhg|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jtbayly|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ugjka|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swader999|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gits1225|3 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tX0M6EveGY
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tybOi4hjZFQ
30 mins. Everyday after brush.
[+] [-] BN1978|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hinkley|3 years ago|reply
My dad gets out his jacket when it’s 50° and dry, I’m still trying to decide if short sleeves were a bad idea. When I was a kid I was essentially nonfunctional if I was cold and we argued about that numerous times.
Capillary structure in the skin plays a role, but there’s a lot of mind over matter there as well. I have some strong doubts whether random people can learn to be like Wim Hof, but I don’t doubt that random people can learn to be more like Wim Hof.
[+] [-] brador|3 years ago|reply
Do not do this.
[+] [-] 1001101|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryanwaggoner|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yomkippur|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philipwhiuk|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmnicolas|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MonkeyIsNull|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bergenty|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] manjunaths|3 years ago|reply
What?!
How do you "push the breath in the brain"?
It would have been nice if this step had been expanded with explicit instructions.
[+] [-] ugjka|3 years ago|reply
I updated my blog just now accordingly
[+] [-] alar44|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yomkippur|3 years ago|reply
> What the fuck is wrong with people these days?
horrible advice aside, you could benefit from becoming more mindful and self-aware. clearly this crowd could use a lot of that. empathy helps too if you were shown a lot of it growing up.
[+] [-] PhantomBKB|3 years ago|reply
Pranayama is an ancient Indian science passed down from saints who received these teachings as divine visions. It didn't materialize as a result of experimentation as many would assume.
Even practices like Sudarshan kriya (which makes use of breathing) were passed down to Shri Shri as a divine teaching.
So my advice is to not experiment with your breathing unless you have proper guidance and knowledge.
[+] [-] otikik|3 years ago|reply
> Pranayama is an ancient Indian science passed down from saints who received these teachings as divine visions
I don't meant to offend, but that doesn't sound like any kind of science to me.
I am sure it has helped a lot of people and a lot of people believe in it. But if it doesn't come from hypothesis, experimentation, and, in the case of medical treatments, clinical trials, it simply isn't science. Or "ancient science".
There's another kind of belief system which accepts axioms coming from divine visions and divine teachings, though. It rhymes with "pigeon".
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] spaetzleesser|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] can16358p|3 years ago|reply
Question to ugjka: How many rounds of your customized method do you recommend? I usually feel the most high after 3rd round, do you think I need the same, less, or more?
[+] [-] fhackenberger|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 28304283409234|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mettamage|3 years ago|reply
[1] on the phone right bow but it is in the PNAS article about the WHM suppressing the immune system
[+] [-] thunkle|3 years ago|reply