If life were a zero-sum game and I had no regard for others, I'd be glad about others not being self-disciplined, as that would mean more room for me to succeed by being disciplined myself. But it's not a zero-sum game. The more of us who work hard at important things in life, the better off we all will be.
So please do apply self-discipline in your life. Having no discipline is like having a car with an engine that stops running frequently and won't exceed 2000 RPM.
Hard work does get easier in time, like working a muscle. And just like working out, you need to pace yourself -- approach hard work wisely and don't overdo it, even if you're enjoying it immensely.
I'm so glad my mom forced me to practice the piano - I wouldn't be the musician I am today without it... and I have no regrets about working hard at front-end web development. I owe my career in large part to the many hours I spent poring over JavaScript: The Definitive Guide and writing SPA web apps while others at my workplace were still using ASP and WebForms.
I don't think you've understood the article or you do not have the problems the author is having.
Disciplining myself is in a way like dealing with a child. If I force my inner child to do something it will resist, shut down, burn me out. The problem is I can't be creative if I can't convince my inner child that the activity we're doing is fun so I have to frame whatever work I'm doing in a playful way otherwise my inner child will go ”boooooooriiiiing” and either make me waste time on social media or, if I catch myself, battle me for control which is very tiring
Being too hard on yourself to the point where you're avoiding hard work because of the guilt is counter-productive.
It's productive to forgive yourself for messing up, then make realistic improvements. It's unproductive to just wallow in a lack of discipline, or to spend more time beating yourself up than actually making improvements, or to try to achieve impossible goals to make up for past mistakes.
I think a big problem with general advice is that a lot of people listen to the advice that isn't good for them, because that's the kind of advice they already follow (even though it's terrible for their situation). The partial solution is to think of yourself as a friend, and ask what you'd advise them - that cuts through a lot of the special pleading we make for ourselves.
That makes sense but in order for it to work like you say people should be applying self-discipline on things that are actually “good for humanity as a whole”.
It is quite challenging to know the full impact our actions. The best we can do is plan, hope, and adapt.
This topic has been on my mind for a couple years now, and it's interesting how I came to a similar conclusion as the author.
There are a ton of things I really enjoy doing: running, boxing, playing music, writing, drawing... however, I always struggle to get started. It always feels like a chore and I'm baffled as to why. I should be excited about initiating any of those activities, but I'm not! The moment they enter a to-do list, I know they also enter the realm of procrastination and avoidance. It's weird.
As I grow older and more experience, I realize "it's all in the mind". If you have the right mindset towards the activity you want to do, you have 80%+ of the job done.
Using running as an example, I went from running a couple days per week to running every day. Why? Simply put, a mentality shift.
Before, I would think about it as "I should run at least 30 mins, 3 days per week". Now, I think about it as: "Let's move a bit, go to that nice canal by the river". In a nutshell... I moved my mindset from "I must be disciplined" to "let's play", pretty much as the author states.
How do you apply the mind-shift to projects where you have to finish something in order to advance? I have a couple of songs here that need mixing, but since they entered my to-do list, they are in procrastination realm ...
But sometimes the thing you like is mostly about doing the thing and leaves little room for playing.
There is a lot of wisdom in this. "Discipline" is quite often "punitive." You think "if I don't force myself, I won't do it."
The more you practice this, the less you trust yourself: "I'm bad, and if I'm not constantly on guard, I'll relapse into badness."
If you think you'll never clean the garage unless you force yourself, you foreclose any chance that some day, you'll think "You know what? I feel like cleaning the garage right now."
"That'll never happen!" you think? Such a low opinion you have of yourself.
>The more you practice this, the less you trust yourself: "I'm bad, and if I'm not constantly on guard, I'll relapse into badness."
This is learned helplessness. The solution I have found to that is to trust that if I try, for reasons unknown to my weak, finite self, things will be made possible for some degree of success and it will be enough. Then work backwards after a certain amount of time trying, look for something good. Embrace a happy memory or some tangible reward from the period of effort as enough for now, be grateful for it, and keep trying.
Why negative reinforcement would be necessarily bad? If you only do what you feel like doing, at the moment you feel like doing it, that's the perfect recipe for disaster.
I am against the modern hedonistic zeitgeist and, on the contrary, think a lot of current social issues could be mitigated by more discipline and "hard work".
On a side note : am I the only one who is tired of the current (decade(s)-long...) trend in blogs/articles of "deconstructing" positive/common-sense behaviors? "The dangers of tidiness", "Embrace your bipolarity", "Why I stopped aiming for excellence" etc... (I am not denying the risks of being too extreme and I understand the "click-bait" need of those writers, but still, it is very telling...)
> You think "if I don't force myself, I won't do it."
Sometimes this is true, at least for any meaningful timescale.
For example, I figured that I'd finish a showcase of my past projects on my homepage, yet the task itself just looms over me - needing to go through years of notes, figure out what even can get disclosed and then actually finishing the functionality for displaying them in my site.
Since I haven't forced myself to do it, that task has now not been finished for about 8 months. The most progress I made was fixing some technical debt of the site itself, which still doesn't really solve the actual problem that I should have been solving, even when doing so is like pulling teeth.
Ergo, if you want results, sometimes you need discipline, instead of counting on fickle motivation.
Discipline is getting things done without relying on something as finicky as your motivation of the day. Some days you will be motivated and some days you won't be, but you want to try and have consistency in whatever goal you are trying to achieve. It helps you get there more reliably.
I think the author is confusing discipline with... something. Discipline is not simply doing things you don't like. It's a trained mentality that helps you do what needs doing (or not doing, such as procrastinating).
Making some activities more playful, and therefore pleasant, has it's own merits, but life isn't so kind as to make the whole of your existence a playground. At some point, you really do have to buckle down, whether or not it is fun. A disciplined attitude will definitely be a benefit.
Yes. Discipline is purposeful pain seeking. Procrastination is pain avoidance. Accepting that pain is inevitable is not easy, and it gets harder in an environment that caters to comfort.
Surprisingly, I have done my best work when depressed: I knew I would be in pain whether I was procrastinating or not, so I sought the fleeting euphoria one gets when a task is completed.
When I'm on antidepressants, I feel almost no emotional pain, and I avoid tasks that can be painful, which means I don't achieve much. I just want to continue feeling no pain.
Get comfortable being uncomfortable, and you'll never be uncomfortable.
Whenever someone starts to talk about their own problems and shortcomings, and then tries to get _you_ to agree that those shortcomings aren't really _their fault_, be careful; not only are you being lied to by them, but they are also being lied to by them.
And if they get _you_ to concur, then the defense against change has succeeded. The status quo remains untouched.
If this lady ever starts swimming more often, it won't be because a bunch of other people agreed with her idea that discipline is the enemy; it will be because she found some.
Discipline has no value of it's own. It's a method, among others. There's no way to deduce from a perfectly orgamized garage weather it is because the oganizer had discipline or if he had fun.
While I can relate to the author, I also agree with this.
As much as I'd like to remember in the moment that riding my bike or some creative project is fun, and get excited to get up and at it ... I don't.
In my better times, discipline has worked like a starter motor, getting me over that initial resistance in a way that no conscious thought really could.
> I think the author is confusing discipline with... something. Discipline is not simply doing things you don't like. It's a trained mentality that helps you do what needs doing (or not doing, such as procrastinating).
The article is about author saying that she can't even persuade herself to do the things she does like.
> The problem is that the person we’re actually rebelling against is ourselves.
Yes, you manage that feeling with decision-making that's outcome oriented. Willpower, discipline, self-control, whatever you want to call it, is of course in limited supply, but for many, it is also trainable and simply neglected.
Discipline is what you have to use when you don't have a habit. Once you have built the habit to do the thing, discipline doesn't enter the picture. It's the default. You don't buy candy because buying candy is not a thing you do. You go running because it's 9 am on a Monday and that's what you do every Monday at 9 am.
This always is made to sound easy but I can count on one hand the number of "habits" I successfully built around things I didn't want to do. Getting up in the morning to go to work vs skipping morning classes back in college is the main one. But it's still unpleasant and I still just do it because that's how I get paid, not because it's a "default." "Not eating as much junk food" was a slightly easier one - because you don't buy it once when doing groceries and then it's not available during the week - but exercise or other un-fun decisions you have to make every day? Nope.
I guess somehow when I was a child my parents thought me something I cannot fully understand now. Nowadays I cannot enjoy entertaining myself if I haven't first finished my "homework" (as an adult, my homework is: work, chores,... the usual stuff).
So, I have this kind of "discipline" not because I enjoy doing "homework" but because I want to fully enjoy my free time without thinking "damn, when I'm done playing video games I have to wash the dishes".
As a kid I could never understood the other kids that on a Friday afternoon were going out to play knowing that they had homework to do in the weekend. I was like "I cannot enjoy playing basketball now knowing that later on or tomorrow I'll have to do the maths homework... so let's first finish the maths homework and then I'll have the entire day/weekend to do whatever the hell I want".
Not sure if this is a good or a bad thing. It's normal to me at my age, though.
I have this mindset but the problem with it is that in my current life situation (working from home with 5 kids), the amount of work I have is unbounded. I am bad at taking time for high quality rest when I feel burdened by the chores I could be doing (which are endless and recurring) so I end up wasting time in ways that's not actually fun or restful.
As a fairly "disciplined" person, it's easy for me to say "Yeah, but..." to this, but being open to serendipity has real benefits, when it comes to creativity and "big ideas."
But she is not just talking about that. She's also talking about letting go of discipline, as tool for self-improvement, and mental health.
I can see that. It would not work for me, but it is not a bad thing.
The issue that I always have, about people prescribing What Works For Me, to others, is that it often doesn't work, in other people. Not judging others, when something that we do/take pride in does not apply, can be difficult.
I enjoy living in a world of variety. People that are different from me, make my life richer. In order to have this richness, I need to accept those that differ from me. That can be a challenge.
Getting back to "discipline," I have heard a quote:
"Winners do what they have to do, and losers do what they want to do."
I'm not a fan of the terms "winners" and "losers," but that's just me, and the approach I take. The quote does have a good message, if we don't get hung up on the terms used to describe people.
Interesting contrast between this thread and the hustle porn thread.
I suspect it depends on individual creativity. Some people have very little and don't miss it, and a hyper-managed & disciplined life makes them feel like they're achieving important things.
Others do and they're always going to find it harder to find a balance between getting useful boring shit done and inventing and creating cool original stuff - an inherently non-linear process, which needs fallow periods and down time and a certain amount of chaos, as well as work and practice.
I just want to stress one thing: starting some activity is hard. Once I started an activity it is usually not that unpleasurable at all, even things like doing taxes, cleaning, writing this email I tried avoiding for weeks, etc.
For me that means that reducing the barrier to start is the most important aspect to get things done, gamification (as suggested in the article) can help of course.
>What if the moment our better self suggests an early bedtime or a lap in the pool or writing a poem, it starts to sound like a scolding parent telling us what we ought to do. So we become a little like a stubborn child, asserting our independence by digging in and not moving.
It's Freudian psychology [1] that adults are the ones who have integrated their super-ego into their ego. If there is a separation between 'self' and 'better self', then the development doesn't seem to be finished.
Like the author, I don't like to do the stuff that the better self suggests. I can trick myself to follow the better self with discipline or by gamifying the task, but I don't know how to overcome the separation and make those tasks 'mine'.
> It's Freudian psychology [1] that adults are the ones who have integrated their super-ego into their ego.
It is impossible, if I understand Freud. Ego is defined as a place of a conflict between SuperEgo and Id. SuperEgo and Id are both play their essential roles, they are needed components, and the conflict between them stems from the fact that they are not the same. So the conflict is inevitable and Ego is the place to resolve it.
> Like the author, I don't like to do the stuff that the better self suggests.
What do you mean by a "better self"? Stuff like to make something nice to yourself, especially at the physical level is mostly about Id in a Freudian psychology. It is the work of Id to seek pleasant physical sensations. But SuperEgo says that you need to conform to social norms and to not allow yourself to force other people to have sex with you every time your Id feels that way. So Id and SuperEgo clash in Ego which finally makes a decision.
The idea to let yourself to take pleasure going to bed early instead of resisting it seems to me as an Id idea. Though the idea to read twitter a little more before going to bed is also essentially the seeking of an instant gratification. I don't know how psychoanalysis handle it: a conflict of Id vs Id?
> then the development doesn't seem to be finished
It's never finished, that's the point, if you want to keep growing the a part of you must separate a bit and drag itself towards the better possible future, then later drag the other lump of you either gently or kicking and screaming. But this "non integration" seems to be the "engine for growth". Even our society as a whole embraces a similar mechanism to "force growth".
You can have integration and comfort, but... you'll need to oursource the growth and suffering that comes with it (think of the billionaines chillin' and vibin' while striving engineers and tormented artists do the real work towards the betterment of humanity). That's kind of the sad truth, some need to be non-integrated and under some amount of suffering for the wheels to keep turning.
The dutch word "prestatiemaatschappij" is fitting here, meaning "performance society".
It suggests that life is fast, nothing but duties, must-dos, which when fully internalized will also apply to leisure. Relaxing is a task as is keeping in touch with friends. As you engage in the task, your thoughts are with the next task. You're never in the moment, nothing is spontaneous, it's robotic.
You're juggling 10 balls and are doing an adequate job in not dropping any of them. You master a "full" life.
>I know, too, that slipping into bed is one of the most delicious sensations there is, so why do I postpone that feeling every night, as though determined to be miserable and tired the next day?
It's not clear to me what the author is suggesting. Yes, I agree we focus a bit too much on self improvement and perhaps should relax about certain things. But if I start to believe that, for medical reasons, or any other reason, I really should go to the gym, and I struggle doing it because I feel it's not my environment, how do I start without a bit of self-discipline?
I could choose another sport, one that is actually fun and I look forward to -- I've done that, but even in that case, sometimes I feel lazy. What is it that I should do?
It's weird to me because so many of the commenters seem to take the author's point to be "no discipline ever" when she was actually talking about a very specific set of circumstances in which she considers discipline to be counter-productive. But almost nobody is engaging with that idea!
Well, discipline is nothing more really than a delayed gratification rule set. Kids refuse a bath usually not because they’re rebelling against themselves or the parents, but because they don’t get the concept of delayed gratification yet. You make little sacrifices in the present to ensure better future.
This is going to sound slightly harsh, and by no means it’s an invitation to stop thinking or pondering, I think it’s kind of good to be skeptical and think of possible major oversights in the way we live our life, but this kind of hairsplitting wordsmithing is useless, and possibly what is causing this person to neglect that discipline is just a helpful concept. Reading “an embarrassing amount” of self-help books is not a good sign either, but yes, the majority of that crap is just that; crap.
No one can teach you or force you to like exercise, until you do it and like it, then you understand, then you’ll probably fall off the wagon a couple of times, but at least you’ll know that you’re just being lazy, and that’s fine sometimes, but mostly you’ll have to gain experience in fighting laziness tendencies, and it’s probably harder for some people than others depending on many variables I can’t even list.
Biggest factor for people not having discipline (or not wanting to have it, not liking it, etc…) is that they want a quick solution that makes sense, where the answer is that it’s always difficult, you just have to learn to enjoy it and find ways to come to terms with it. Practice more and do it again.
The author is not rebelling against discipline, but really against the self help industry.
> Kids refuse a bath usually not because they’re rebelling against themselves or the parents, but because they don’t get the concept of delayed gratification yet
I'm confused by this thought because there _isn't_ any delayed gratification in kids taking a bath, as she said, kids love it once they're in there, and they're usually not even running their own bath if they're the age I think she's talking about, so where's the delay, walking to the bathroom? There's certainly less delay than going swimming, and kids love that too.
Getting kids into the bath, even though they like it once they're in there, and given, as she says in the article, that they've liked it before isn't a problem of delayed gratification. It's a problem of routine and requirement, of apathy and change. You have to stop whatever it is you're doing and go take a bath _every day_, my nephew absolutely loves going to the park, but if we did it every day there'd be so many days where he doesn't feel like it, even if he loves it every time he gets there.
This is exactly the point the author is making, discipline is about doing things that need doing, the question is whether it's still discipline if it's something you're doing only for your own enjoyment, and whether finding enjoyment out of things you need to do is enough.
The issues in the article seem quite complex to me. But every time I re-read the first three paragraphs, I cannot help but think, "Irina Dumitrescu is a sage."
Discipline is a multifaceted thing. The discipline required for success is not merely a "go put yourself in the chair and type it out", nor is making the task "fun" or "play" quite the same thing. Discipline is also for the mind itself. To be more successful, one must curate the thoughts that he/she has. If there is a thought that is particularly destructive it might be time to apply some CBT/meditation/therapy to figure out why that thought is there and how to make it stop. There is a difference between doing the things one must do and fighting oneself the entire time, and doing the things that one must do and not minding doing so. In one of these, you have imposed discipline, and in the other you have self-discipline.
I am still not as productive as many people I know, but if instead of comparing myself to others I compare to who I was vs who I am... I have made outrageous improvements.
EDIT: To me, the single most glorious thing about being a human is that I can choose to change my mind and then actually do so. It may be difficult, it may take time, but I can change my nature unlike the other creatures of this Earth who seem to be a bit more static.
If you don't mind doing the things you're doing, is "discipline" really a useful word for describing this? I'm not necessarily disagreeing; it just looks like an argument about definitions, and perhaps a bit pointless. Though I agree that CBT, meditation and introspection should be a part of your "making sure I don't find it painful to do some worthwhile things" toolkit, which is a very useful point.
Delayed gratification? That's one way to put it. Another way is "different gratification". Instead of eating chocolate you are eating a dream of future chocolate.
So becoming disciplined could be called developing a taste for dreams.
When the glow of accomplishing a step in your 12 step plan towards chocolate-accquirement is actually more satisfying than eating the chocolate, a shift in taste has occurred. And they call you "disciplined".
That's something totally different. Delay of gratification, the act of resisting an impulse to take an immediately available reward in the hope of obtaining a more-valued reward in the future. The ability to delay gratification is essential to self-regulation, or self-control, aka discipline.
>"few people really need advice about how to live their lives. They know how they ought to be living their lives. The trick is learning how to follow their own best instinct."
I don't think it's that simple. I think it's worth questioning whether the wants you have that you're battling so hard with are actually your wants rather than the desires of others. It's not so easy to figure out what your own instinct is.
I think what manifests as a need for discipline quite often is people trying to mold themselves into something that they simply aren't without recognizing that fact. The author mentions sleep hygiene and that is an example for me. I've struggled with proper 'sleep hygiene' a lot, and of course I thought i just need more discipline. During the pandemic doing remote work I figured out that I actually love having a really weird sleep schedule, it's just hard to square with an ordinary work day.
I think it's actually easy to declare oneself lazy and in need of discipline, rather than changing things up to do what you genuinely want to do.
[+] [-] TimTheTinker|3 years ago|reply
So please do apply self-discipline in your life. Having no discipline is like having a car with an engine that stops running frequently and won't exceed 2000 RPM.
Hard work does get easier in time, like working a muscle. And just like working out, you need to pace yourself -- approach hard work wisely and don't overdo it, even if you're enjoying it immensely.
I'm so glad my mom forced me to practice the piano - I wouldn't be the musician I am today without it... and I have no regrets about working hard at front-end web development. I owe my career in large part to the many hours I spent poring over JavaScript: The Definitive Guide and writing SPA web apps while others at my workplace were still using ASP and WebForms.
[+] [-] jack_pp|3 years ago|reply
Disciplining myself is in a way like dealing with a child. If I force my inner child to do something it will resist, shut down, burn me out. The problem is I can't be creative if I can't convince my inner child that the activity we're doing is fun so I have to frame whatever work I'm doing in a playful way otherwise my inner child will go ”boooooooriiiiing” and either make me waste time on social media or, if I catch myself, battle me for control which is very tiring
[+] [-] wisty|3 years ago|reply
Being too hard on yourself to the point where you're avoiding hard work because of the guilt is counter-productive.
It's productive to forgive yourself for messing up, then make realistic improvements. It's unproductive to just wallow in a lack of discipline, or to spend more time beating yourself up than actually making improvements, or to try to achieve impossible goals to make up for past mistakes.
I think a big problem with general advice is that a lot of people listen to the advice that isn't good for them, because that's the kind of advice they already follow (even though it's terrible for their situation). The partial solution is to think of yourself as a friend, and ask what you'd advise them - that cuts through a lot of the special pleading we make for ourselves.
[+] [-] otikik|3 years ago|reply
It is quite challenging to know the full impact our actions. The best we can do is plan, hope, and adapt.
[+] [-] zorrolovsky|3 years ago|reply
There are a ton of things I really enjoy doing: running, boxing, playing music, writing, drawing... however, I always struggle to get started. It always feels like a chore and I'm baffled as to why. I should be excited about initiating any of those activities, but I'm not! The moment they enter a to-do list, I know they also enter the realm of procrastination and avoidance. It's weird.
As I grow older and more experience, I realize "it's all in the mind". If you have the right mindset towards the activity you want to do, you have 80%+ of the job done.
Using running as an example, I went from running a couple days per week to running every day. Why? Simply put, a mentality shift. Before, I would think about it as "I should run at least 30 mins, 3 days per week". Now, I think about it as: "Let's move a bit, go to that nice canal by the river". In a nutshell... I moved my mindset from "I must be disciplined" to "let's play", pretty much as the author states.
[+] [-] highfrequency|3 years ago|reply
Well put! It's like our mind is telling itself: "if I need to be told to do this and reminded to do it, it must not be very fun."
[+] [-] Jorchime|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cupertino95014|3 years ago|reply
The more you practice this, the less you trust yourself: "I'm bad, and if I'm not constantly on guard, I'll relapse into badness."
If you think you'll never clean the garage unless you force yourself, you foreclose any chance that some day, you'll think "You know what? I feel like cleaning the garage right now."
"That'll never happen!" you think? Such a low opinion you have of yourself.
[+] [-] JetAlone|3 years ago|reply
This is learned helplessness. The solution I have found to that is to trust that if I try, for reasons unknown to my weak, finite self, things will be made possible for some degree of success and it will be enough. Then work backwards after a certain amount of time trying, look for something good. Embrace a happy memory or some tangible reward from the period of effort as enough for now, be grateful for it, and keep trying.
[+] [-] the_omegist|3 years ago|reply
I am against the modern hedonistic zeitgeist and, on the contrary, think a lot of current social issues could be mitigated by more discipline and "hard work".
On a side note : am I the only one who is tired of the current (decade(s)-long...) trend in blogs/articles of "deconstructing" positive/common-sense behaviors? "The dangers of tidiness", "Embrace your bipolarity", "Why I stopped aiming for excellence" etc... (I am not denying the risks of being too extreme and I understand the "click-bait" need of those writers, but still, it is very telling...)
[+] [-] KronisLV|3 years ago|reply
Sometimes this is true, at least for any meaningful timescale.
For example, I figured that I'd finish a showcase of my past projects on my homepage, yet the task itself just looms over me - needing to go through years of notes, figure out what even can get disclosed and then actually finishing the functionality for displaying them in my site.
Since I haven't forced myself to do it, that task has now not been finished for about 8 months. The most progress I made was fixing some technical debt of the site itself, which still doesn't really solve the actual problem that I should have been solving, even when doing so is like pulling teeth.
Ergo, if you want results, sometimes you need discipline, instead of counting on fickle motivation.
[+] [-] cinntaile|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johnchristopher|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] zdragnar|3 years ago|reply
Making some activities more playful, and therefore pleasant, has it's own merits, but life isn't so kind as to make the whole of your existence a playground. At some point, you really do have to buckle down, whether or not it is fun. A disciplined attitude will definitely be a benefit.
[+] [-] copperx|3 years ago|reply
Surprisingly, I have done my best work when depressed: I knew I would be in pain whether I was procrastinating or not, so I sought the fleeting euphoria one gets when a task is completed.
When I'm on antidepressants, I feel almost no emotional pain, and I avoid tasks that can be painful, which means I don't achieve much. I just want to continue feeling no pain.
[+] [-] eckza|3 years ago|reply
Whenever someone starts to talk about their own problems and shortcomings, and then tries to get _you_ to agree that those shortcomings aren't really _their fault_, be careful; not only are you being lied to by them, but they are also being lied to by them.
And if they get _you_ to concur, then the defense against change has succeeded. The status quo remains untouched.
If this lady ever starts swimming more often, it won't be because a bunch of other people agreed with her idea that discipline is the enemy; it will be because she found some.
[+] [-] astro19238_|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] makach|3 years ago|reply
The real gold from the article comes, as many other times, from the aggregated knowledge from all our minds moderated here.
[+] [-] CaptWillard|3 years ago|reply
As much as I'd like to remember in the moment that riding my bike or some creative project is fun, and get excited to get up and at it ... I don't.
In my better times, discipline has worked like a starter motor, getting me over that initial resistance in a way that no conscious thought really could.
[+] [-] adrianmsmith|3 years ago|reply
The article is about author saying that she can't even persuade herself to do the things she does like.
[+] [-] phnofive|3 years ago|reply
> The problem is that the person we’re actually rebelling against is ourselves.
Yes, you manage that feeling with decision-making that's outcome oriented. Willpower, discipline, self-control, whatever you want to call it, is of course in limited supply, but for many, it is also trainable and simply neglected.
[+] [-] diego|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] majormajor|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danwee|3 years ago|reply
So, I have this kind of "discipline" not because I enjoy doing "homework" but because I want to fully enjoy my free time without thinking "damn, when I'm done playing video games I have to wash the dishes".
As a kid I could never understood the other kids that on a Friday afternoon were going out to play knowing that they had homework to do in the weekend. I was like "I cannot enjoy playing basketball now knowing that later on or tomorrow I'll have to do the maths homework... so let's first finish the maths homework and then I'll have the entire day/weekend to do whatever the hell I want".
Not sure if this is a good or a bad thing. It's normal to me at my age, though.
[+] [-] PebblesRox|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChrisMarshallNY|3 years ago|reply
But she is not just talking about that. She's also talking about letting go of discipline, as tool for self-improvement, and mental health.
I can see that. It would not work for me, but it is not a bad thing.
The issue that I always have, about people prescribing What Works For Me, to others, is that it often doesn't work, in other people. Not judging others, when something that we do/take pride in does not apply, can be difficult.
I enjoy living in a world of variety. People that are different from me, make my life richer. In order to have this richness, I need to accept those that differ from me. That can be a challenge.
Getting back to "discipline," I have heard a quote:
"Winners do what they have to do, and losers do what they want to do."
I'm not a fan of the terms "winners" and "losers," but that's just me, and the approach I take. The quote does have a good message, if we don't get hung up on the terms used to describe people.
[+] [-] langsoul-com|3 years ago|reply
Do nothing = worthless.
[+] [-] TheOtherHobbes|3 years ago|reply
I suspect it depends on individual creativity. Some people have very little and don't miss it, and a hyper-managed & disciplined life makes them feel like they're achieving important things.
Others do and they're always going to find it harder to find a balance between getting useful boring shit done and inventing and creating cool original stuff - an inherently non-linear process, which needs fallow periods and down time and a certain amount of chaos, as well as work and practice.
[+] [-] CloseChoice|3 years ago|reply
For me that means that reducing the barrier to start is the most important aspect to get things done, gamification (as suggested in the article) can help of course.
[+] [-] closedloop129|3 years ago|reply
It's Freudian psychology [1] that adults are the ones who have integrated their super-ego into their ego. If there is a separation between 'self' and 'better self', then the development doesn't seem to be finished.
Like the author, I don't like to do the stuff that the better self suggests. I can trick myself to follow the better self with discipline or by gamifying the task, but I don't know how to overcome the separation and make those tasks 'mine'.
Does anybody know how to do the integration?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyche_(psychology)#Freudian_s...
[+] [-] ordu|3 years ago|reply
It is impossible, if I understand Freud. Ego is defined as a place of a conflict between SuperEgo and Id. SuperEgo and Id are both play their essential roles, they are needed components, and the conflict between them stems from the fact that they are not the same. So the conflict is inevitable and Ego is the place to resolve it.
> Like the author, I don't like to do the stuff that the better self suggests.
What do you mean by a "better self"? Stuff like to make something nice to yourself, especially at the physical level is mostly about Id in a Freudian psychology. It is the work of Id to seek pleasant physical sensations. But SuperEgo says that you need to conform to social norms and to not allow yourself to force other people to have sex with you every time your Id feels that way. So Id and SuperEgo clash in Ego which finally makes a decision.
The idea to let yourself to take pleasure going to bed early instead of resisting it seems to me as an Id idea. Though the idea to read twitter a little more before going to bed is also essentially the seeking of an instant gratification. I don't know how psychoanalysis handle it: a conflict of Id vs Id?
[+] [-] catchclose8919|3 years ago|reply
It's never finished, that's the point, if you want to keep growing the a part of you must separate a bit and drag itself towards the better possible future, then later drag the other lump of you either gently or kicking and screaming. But this "non integration" seems to be the "engine for growth". Even our society as a whole embraces a similar mechanism to "force growth".
You can have integration and comfort, but... you'll need to oursource the growth and suffering that comes with it (think of the billionaines chillin' and vibin' while striving engineers and tormented artists do the real work towards the betterment of humanity). That's kind of the sad truth, some need to be non-integrated and under some amount of suffering for the wheels to keep turning.
[+] [-] fleddr|3 years ago|reply
It suggests that life is fast, nothing but duties, must-dos, which when fully internalized will also apply to leisure. Relaxing is a task as is keeping in touch with friends. As you engage in the task, your thoughts are with the next task. You're never in the moment, nothing is spontaneous, it's robotic.
You're juggling 10 balls and are doing an adequate job in not dropping any of them. You master a "full" life.
But you don't. You've removed life itself.
[+] [-] tester756|3 years ago|reply
hits too close to home
[+] [-] martopix|3 years ago|reply
I could choose another sport, one that is actually fun and I look forward to -- I've done that, but even in that case, sometimes I feel lazy. What is it that I should do?
[+] [-] platistocrates|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PebblesRox|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] yessirwhatever|3 years ago|reply
This is going to sound slightly harsh, and by no means it’s an invitation to stop thinking or pondering, I think it’s kind of good to be skeptical and think of possible major oversights in the way we live our life, but this kind of hairsplitting wordsmithing is useless, and possibly what is causing this person to neglect that discipline is just a helpful concept. Reading “an embarrassing amount” of self-help books is not a good sign either, but yes, the majority of that crap is just that; crap.
No one can teach you or force you to like exercise, until you do it and like it, then you understand, then you’ll probably fall off the wagon a couple of times, but at least you’ll know that you’re just being lazy, and that’s fine sometimes, but mostly you’ll have to gain experience in fighting laziness tendencies, and it’s probably harder for some people than others depending on many variables I can’t even list.
Biggest factor for people not having discipline (or not wanting to have it, not liking it, etc…) is that they want a quick solution that makes sense, where the answer is that it’s always difficult, you just have to learn to enjoy it and find ways to come to terms with it. Practice more and do it again.
The author is not rebelling against discipline, but really against the self help industry.
[+] [-] faceplanted|3 years ago|reply
I'm confused by this thought because there _isn't_ any delayed gratification in kids taking a bath, as she said, kids love it once they're in there, and they're usually not even running their own bath if they're the age I think she's talking about, so where's the delay, walking to the bathroom? There's certainly less delay than going swimming, and kids love that too.
Getting kids into the bath, even though they like it once they're in there, and given, as she says in the article, that they've liked it before isn't a problem of delayed gratification. It's a problem of routine and requirement, of apathy and change. You have to stop whatever it is you're doing and go take a bath _every day_, my nephew absolutely loves going to the park, but if we did it every day there'd be so many days where he doesn't feel like it, even if he loves it every time he gets there.
This is exactly the point the author is making, discipline is about doing things that need doing, the question is whether it's still discipline if it's something you're doing only for your own enjoyment, and whether finding enjoyment out of things you need to do is enough.
[+] [-] unknown|3 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] jakzurr|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BirAdam|3 years ago|reply
I am still not as productive as many people I know, but if instead of comparing myself to others I compare to who I was vs who I am... I have made outrageous improvements.
EDIT: To me, the single most glorious thing about being a human is that I can choose to change my mind and then actually do so. It may be difficult, it may take time, but I can change my nature unlike the other creatures of this Earth who seem to be a bit more static.
[+] [-] zozbot234|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swayvil|3 years ago|reply
So becoming disciplined could be called developing a taste for dreams.
When the glow of accomplishing a step in your 12 step plan towards chocolate-accquirement is actually more satisfying than eating the chocolate, a shift in taste has occurred. And they call you "disciplined".
[+] [-] yessirwhatever|3 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Barrin92|3 years ago|reply
I don't think it's that simple. I think it's worth questioning whether the wants you have that you're battling so hard with are actually your wants rather than the desires of others. It's not so easy to figure out what your own instinct is.
I think what manifests as a need for discipline quite often is people trying to mold themselves into something that they simply aren't without recognizing that fact. The author mentions sleep hygiene and that is an example for me. I've struggled with proper 'sleep hygiene' a lot, and of course I thought i just need more discipline. During the pandemic doing remote work I figured out that I actually love having a really weird sleep schedule, it's just hard to square with an ordinary work day.
I think it's actually easy to declare oneself lazy and in need of discipline, rather than changing things up to do what you genuinely want to do.